Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 67: So-called “critical rationalism” and the blunder of denying [defeat-able] warrant for knowledge

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IEP summarises:

“Critical Rationalism” is the name Karl Popper (1902-1994) gave to a modest and self-critical rationalism. He contrasted this view with “uncritical or comprehensive rationalism,” the received justificationist view that only what can be proved by reason and/or experience should be accepted. Popper argued that comprehensive rationalism cannot explain how proof is possible and that it leads to inconsistencies. Critical rationalism today is the project of extending Popper’s approach to all areas of thought and action. In each field the central task of critical rationalism is to replace allegedly justificatory methods with critical ones.

A common summary of this is that it replaces knowledge as justified, true belief, with “knowledge is unjustified untrue unbelief.” That is, we see here the ill advised privileging of hyperskepticism.

The quick answer is to update our understanding, based on how well informed people of common good sense generally use “knowledge.” Knowledge is a term of the people, not some abstruse, rarefied, dubious philosophical notion. And it is a term that is sound,

Namely, and following Plantinga, Gettier and others, knowledge is warranted, credibly true [and reliable] belief, i.e. it includes strong form cases where what is known is absolutely certain, AND a wider, weaker sense where what we claim to know is tested and found reliable, but is open to correction for cause. Newtonian dynamics counted as knowledge before the rise of modern physics and with modification to recognise limitations it still counts as knowledge. This is a paradigm case.

But doesn’t that come down to the same thing as critical rationalism and its focus on what is hard to criticise as what counts for now as “knowledge”?

Not at all.

First, the confident but open to correction spirit of warrant and tested reliability is utterly different from the cramped, distorted thought that naturally flows from the blunder of privileging selective or even global hyperskepticism.

Second, inference to the best explanation and wider observational, inductive approaches — the vast majority of common, day to day knowledge and professional practice — is not put under the chilling effect of dismissive, undue suspicion.

Third, knowledge is accepted as a commonplace phenomenon, not a privilege of the elite few, undermining the subtext of contempt that reeks out of far too much of skeptical discussion.

And if you imagine these considerations are of little weight, that is because you are part of the problem. END

Comments
FP [and I see CD has tried to pile on, on posting], dismissively listing warranted corrections to errors, errors that are substantially pointed out case by case -- as the above shows -- is a back handed way to announce your intent to cling to your errors. Sad, but duly noted. KF PS, Cognitive dissonance is real enough, and it often leads to defenses by trying to project blame or fault to the other, whether made up out of whole cloth or by way of distractive finger pointing that changes the subject. It is duly noted that the just above is a case in point, and again, the implication is, clinging to corrected errors. We note, neither of you can substantially correct Origenes, so we can confidently hold he has the better on the merits, as is evident. A first summary https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cognitive-dissonance Note, projection to the other is a common strategy for dealing with thiskairosfocus
March 26, 2023
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FP/24 You’re right, of course. I was just tabulating the most recent that I’ve run across. And don’t forget everyone’s pop-psych favorite, “ cognitive dissonance.” I hadn’t seen that one since 1980 when it was all the rage. You know, like “Casper Weinberger exhibited overt signs of cognitive dissonance while testifying before the Iran-Contra Congressional hearing panel…….”chuckdarwin
March 26, 2023
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@26
Can you quote Popper doing this?
No. My knowledge of Popper is limited to second-hand sources, except for one article of his on Marxism and psychoanalysis as pseudosciences. My secondhand knowledge of Popper is based on the SEP entry, the chapter on Popper in Peter Godfrey-Smith's textbook Theory and Reality, and some discussion of Popper in Bryan Magee's Confessions of a Philosopher. So, I have some familiarity with the basics but I can't quote chapter-and-verse.
So, according to you, Popper is talking about scientific theories only. Would you consider mathematics and logic to be part of scientific theory?
There's a question here as to whether Popper would consider mathematics and logic to be part of science, and then there's a question as to whether I would. On the first question, I have no idea. But I would certainly be surprised if he thought that mathematics and logic were part of scientific theory. On the second question, I definitely do not consider mathematics and logic to be part of scientific theory. I endorse the analytic/synthetic distinction: there is a difference in kind between assertions that are true (or false) "by meaning alone" and assertions that true (or false) because of how the world actually is. (Whether this distinction maps onto the a priori/a posteriori distinction is also a massively complicated issue.) I think of logic as analytic: logical truths are truths because of the syntactic and semantic features of the basic terms (variables, operators, quantifiers) that constitute a system of symbolic logic. Whether mathematics is analytic or synthetic is a famously vexing question, and I have no firm commitment about it. I just haven't kept up to date on those debates. But I am of the tentative opinion that mathematics is analytic, or at least a priori in some interesting way: scientists will never perform an experiment showing that 2+2=4 is not always true. By contrast, science is quite differently synthetic: we cannot hope to confirm or discomfirm a scientific theory simply by considering the meaning of the words involved. So, my position is that mathematics and logic are not part of scientific theory, though they can be (of course) used by scientists in the development and testing of scientific theories.PyrrhoManiac1
March 26, 2023
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PM1@
Popper is very clearly distinguishing between scientific theories and philosophical accounts of scientific theories.
Can you quote Popper making this distinction?
Popper: “No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.” (OKN 360).
So here, according to you, Popper is talking about scientific theories only. He "only" meant to say that scientific theories cannot be certain, as opposed to "philosophical accounts of scientific theories" which (conveniently) can be certain. Question: would you consider mathematics and logic to be part of scientific theory?Origenes
March 26, 2023
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@23
On core issues, the metaphysical [including ontological], logical, epistemological and even axiological are all inextricably intertwined. We may highlight one facet but all of the others contribute, and it contributes to the others in turn.
That seems right to me, though it raises the question as to why we ought to concern ourselves with Popper at all, given that he was not a comprehensive system-builder.
Popper may indeed have concerned himself with the logic of science but the very term shows the interaction, science is slightly adapted from the Latin for knowledge. Knowledge is the modified Greek term, itself. The logic of science is a logic of warrant, directly tied to knowledge.
To be honest, I'm not persuaded by etymologies. The fact that the word "science" comes from a Latin word that meant "knowledge" doesn't by itself show us that Popper's philosophy of science rests on any epistemological or ontological background. That is not to deny that it does -- only to say that we need an argument here, not just an etymology. (Consider a parallel: if we want to know more about what kinds of technology promote the human good, does it really help to know that the word "technology" comes from Greek origins that would translate as, roughly, "the reasoned articulation of craftsmanship?")
So, it is in order to highlight his self referentiality and its self-defeating consequences.
I'm not persuaded that there are any. Popper is very clearly distinguishing between scientific theories and philosophical accounts of scientific theories. If there's any real tension in Popper (according to the SEP entry), it's that he does not extend to his own account of science, the same tentative and provisional status that he thinks exemplifies science at its best. On the contrary (again, according to SEP) he was far more dogmatic about his philosophy of science than he had right to be, given his own reasoning about the epistemic virtues that science fosters and promotes.
When the dust settles, what is left is weak form knowledge, with observations more reliable than theories. That is why a counter-observation can overturn a theory but once an observation is sound a theory cannot remove that soundness. Though, theories can guide us to unsuspected unsoundness in observations.
I think that Popper would accept all of that -- especially the power of observations to overturn theories (which is what he calls "falsification"). But I am not sure how far he would go in the idea that observations are theory-independent. Consider it this way: suppose I am looking at a sample using high magnification in a light microscope. My observation may falsify my theory that mitochondria contain very small hamsters running on hamster wheels. But my observation also relies on all sorts of background theories -- theories of optics, of how reflection and magnification work, etc. One of the chief objections to Popper (I was told in grad school) is that when you have a falsifying observation, it's never clear just which hypothesis has been falsified. I might fail to observe the tiny hamsters and argue that therefore it is the laws of optics that have been falsified! And while that's of course quite silly, I'm not sure that Popper's philosophy of science really offers guidance as to why such silliness deserves to be rejected.
I agree with you that inductive logic is vital, and that abductive reasoning is particularly useful, though humbling.
Well, at least we agree on something.PyrrhoManiac1
March 26, 2023
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CD writes:
The two most over used expressions on this blog: self-defeating and self-referential……
Don’t forget red herring, projection, Darwinist, strawman,, scientism, incoherent, and several more. It has been my experience that these terms and labels are most often used by people who are ideologically married to their views but don’t have the valid arguments or compelling evidence to support them. Another piece of evidence pointing towards a person who is ideologically rather than logically driven is when they start most responses with a criticism of your motives or by applying a limiting label to you. It would be interesting to enumerate and compare the use of these terms by the supporters here of ID and those who are not convinced.Ford prefect
March 26, 2023
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PM1, pardon, but the microcosm-facets-holism principle applies. On core issues, the metaphysical [including ontological], logical, epistemological and even axiological are all inextricably intertwined. We may highlight one facet but all of the others contribute, and it contributes to the others in turn. Popper may indeed have concerned himself with the logic of science but the very term shows the interaction, science is slightly adapted from the Latin for knowledge. Knowledge is the modified Greek term, itself. The logic of science is a logic of warrant, directly tied to knowledge. So, it is in order to highlight his self referentiality and its self-defeating consequences. When the dust settles, what is left is weak form knowledge, with observations more reliable than theories. That is why a counter-observation can overturn a theory but once an observation is sound a theory cannot remove that soundness. Though, theories can guide us to unsuspected unsoundness in observations. I agree with you that inductive logic is vital, and that abductive reasoning is particularly useful, though humbling. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2023
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I think that the discussion in this thread has gone off the rails quite badly with the assumption that Popper is doing, or interested in doing, epistemology. I think that is simply not true. His governing interest, so far as I can tell, is articulating the logic of science: what science is, how it works, what makes science different from other forms of knowledge. Perhaps he could be accused of a version of "scientism", insofar as he does think of scientific knowledge as more reliable than other forms of knowledge. But this is because of the epistemic virtues that scientific methods foster and promote, not because science allows us some magical insight into the noumenal realism. I do think that one can fault Popper for an overly romanticized conception of scientific practice. His imagines the individual scientist as someone who has overcome her own tendency to confirmation bias. He does not appreciate, or does not seem to appreciate enough, that scientists are able to mitigate their tendencies to confirmation bias only because of the organizational dynamics of the community of scientists. At its best, when all goes optimally well under real-world conditions, scientific practices function as iterated error filters: filtering out error at the individual level through collaboration in lab or field, filtering out error in the process of peer review, and then again in the process of agreement and disagreement in the scientific literature. We are never wholly free of error when it comes to empirical knowledge, but we can make progress in removing errors. (And I think Popper would like that view.) I would also fault Popper for having tossed aside induction as he did. Popper was convinced that Hume's problem of induction was unsolvable. (Whereas I think the right response to Hume is to see how much his skepticism about induction relies on an account of experience that we ought to reject.) One of the main differences between everyday empirical knowledge and genuine scientific knowledge, Popper thought, was that everyday empirical knowledge relies on inductive generalization and genuine scientific knowledge does not. This results in a break or rupture between everyday empirical knowledge and scientific knowledge. (I find such a break to be unacceptable.) I think that Popper would have been better off if he had read more Peirce, and appreciated that both everyday empirical knowledge and scientific knowledge rely on abduction -- guesswork that draws on background knowledge about how things might be, such that if things really are as they are guessed to be, we have a testable explanation as to why things are as they seem to be. Peirce emphasized that abduction must be complemented by deduction and by induction: we make guesses about how things might be, infer what measurements must follow from those guesses, conduct experiments that generate those measurements, and generalize across those measurements to see if the resulting data confirms the initial guess. So while I find something interesting in Popper, and could definitely stand to read more of his work (I think I have a mostly unread copy of Conjectures and Refutations), when it comes to philosophy of science I prefer Peirce and the pragmatist tradition.PyrrhoManiac1
March 26, 2023
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CD, your dismissive stunt fails. First, once core questions are on the table, they normally include ourselves in their direct or implicit reference. That means we have to take particular care to avoid question begging and contradiction. Popper is demonstrably self referential and self contradictory, though some can be rescued. When rescued, we are back to weak form knowledge. So, the OP is inadvertently underscored. KFkairosfocus
March 26, 2023
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The two most over used expressions on this blog: self-defeating and self-referential......chuckdarwin
March 26, 2023
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Origenes, we can do a liberal, charitable edit, e.g.:
“The quest for [scientific or similar] certainty.. . is mistaken …. though we may seek for [scientific or similar] truth … we can never be quite certain that we have found it” (OSE2 375) “No particular [scientific or similar] theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.” (OKN 360).
This of course boils down to, theories of science are prone to correction over time, and while we may warrant them as empirically reliable across a tested range, per observations, that is itself just that, an observation. That is, we have a case of weak form knowledge, softened further to tested reliability. Put it this way, no one should be tried in a court for disagreeing with a scientific theory as if s/he were in disagreement with capital T Truth. We may ask for why and may debate the critique but we too may be in error per the pessimistic induction. Of course, this particularly obtains for origins sciences, where we cannot inspect the actual past. But of course, that is exactly where ideologues in lab coats want to impose The Party Of Science Party Line. Oops. Other clips from Popper cannot even be rescued to that extent:
Popper: “Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24). Popper: “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27)
These are irretrievably self defeating, hopeless monsters. Instead, Willard and heirs stand up much better. KF PS, Of course, this is tied to objective truth, so, time for a little Algebra+ (TM):
The truth claim, “there are no [generally knowable] objective truths regarding any matter (so, on any particular matter),” roughly equivalent to, “knowledge is inescapably only subjective or relative,” is an error. Which, happily, can be recognised and corrected. Often, such error is presented and made to seem plausible through the diversity of opinions assertion, with implication that none have or are in a position to have a generally warranted, objective conclusion. This, in extreme form, is a key thesis of the nihilism that haunts our civilisation, which we must detect, expose to the light of day, correct and dispel, in defence of civilisation and human dignity. (NB: Sometimes the blind men and the elephant fable is used to make it seem plausible, overlooking the narrator's implicit claim to objectivity. Oops!) Now, to set things aright, let’s symbolise: ~[O*G] with * as AND. This claims, it is false that there is an objective knowable truth, on the set of general definable topics, G. Ironically, it intends to describe not mere opinion but warranted, credible truth about knowledge in general. So, ~[O*G] is self referential as it is clearly about subject matter G, and is intended to be a well warranted objectively true claim. But it is itself therefore a truth claim about knowledge in general intended to be taken as objectively true, which is what it tries to deny as a possibility. So, it is self contradictory and necessarily false. In steps:
PHASE I: Let a proposition be represented by x G = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding some identifiable matter in general including e.g. history, science, the secrets of our hearts, morality etc, is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true} PHASE II: It is claimed, S= ~[O*G] = 1, 1 meaning true However, the subject of S is G, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about G where it forbids O-status to any claim of type G so, ~[O*G] cannot be true per self referential incoherence ============= PHASE III: The Algebra, translating from S: ~[O*G] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*G]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*G = 1 [condensing not of not] where, G [general truth claim including moral ones of course] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] ================ CONCLUSION: That is, there are objective general, particular and -- as a key case -- moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*G] is false, ~[O*G] = 0. Therefore, the set of knowable objective truths in general -- and embracing those that happen to be about states of affairs in regard to right conduct etc -- is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it.
That’s important. Also, there are many particular objective general and moral truths that are adequately warranted to be regarded as reliable. Try, Napoleon was once a European monarch and would be conqueror. Try, Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of history. Try, it is wrong to torture babies for fun, and more. Ours is a needlessly confused age, heading for trouble.
PPS, as we have seen rhetorical stunts over objective vs subjective:
Kindly, ponder the very carefully worded definitions from Collins English Dictionary [CED], where high quality dictionaries record and report correct usage:
SUBJECTIVE: subjective adj 1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered [--> in short, in the contemplating subject, not necessarily the contemplated observed or abstract object such as the null set {} --> 0] 2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person’s emotions, prejudices, etc: subjective views. [--> this highlights the error-pronenes of our subjectivity, thus need for filtering to achieve adequate reliability] OBJECTIVE: objective adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual’s conceptions: are there objective moral values?. [AmHD helps: 1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind;] {--> independent of particularly should be seen as inherent in the object, observable or abstract and that on grounds that confer reliability} 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias [--> highlighting error proneness] 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc.[ --> this sense especially relates to observable, concrete things like a tree, and again points to our error proneness, however for cause something like the null set and related Math is objective though abstract, there being no physical location for the null set]
Dictionaries of course summarise from usage by known good speakers and writers, forming a body of recorded knowledge on language. So, we may freely conclude that:
objectivity does not mean empirical, tangible external/physical object or the like, it can include items contemplated by the mind such as mathematical entities etc and which due to adequate warrant are reasonably INDEPENDENT of our individual or collective error-prone cognition, opinions, delusions, biases and distortions etc.
Objectivity, is established as a key concept that addresses our error proneness by provision of adequate warrant that gives good reason to be confident that the item or state of affairs etc contemplated is real not a likely point of delusion. Yes, degree of warrant is a due consideration and in many cases common to science etc is defeasible but credible. In certain key cases, e.g. actual self evidence, it is utterly certain.
kairosfocus
March 26, 2023
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When one adjudicates knowledge, when one criticizes knowledge, it must necessarily be the case that one has access to a particular knowledge. When Popper says: ….
“No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.”
… he must have knowledge of what a certain theory is. IOW he must have a ‘theory on certain knowledge’. And he must be certain about that theory, because only if he is certain can he say what he says. However, at the same time, when his claim is applied to itself, it is implied that his ‘theory on certain knowledge’ cannot be regarded as certain. SELF-DEFEATING. Popper is like the guy who raises his arm to show you that he "cannot" raise his arm “like this.” He is like that guy who, at the top of his lungs, shouts at you “I WILL NEVER SHOUT AT ANYONE !!”Origenes
March 26, 2023
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When one adjucates knowledge, when one criticizes knowledge, it must necessarily be the case that one has access to a particular knowledge. When Popper says: ….
“No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.”
… he must have knowledge of what a certain theory is. IOW he must have a ‘theory on certain knowledge’. And he must be certain about that theory, because only if he is certain can he say what he says. However, at the same time, when his claim is applied to itself, it is implied that his ‘theory on certain knowledge’ cannot be regarded as certain. SELF-DEFEATING. Popper is like the guy who raises his arm to show you that he "cannot" raise his arm “like this.” He is like that guy who, at the top of his lungs, shouts at you “I WILL NEVER SHOUT AT ANYONE !!”Origenes
March 26, 2023
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KF
... important snippets. Clearly the Willard approach allows us to move forward. For example, due to the logic of inference to best explanation, scientific theories may be reliable but struggle to claim assured certainty.
Interestingly, we all have to deal with the same situation, we are all in the same epistemological boat. The problem with ‘hyperskeptics’ is that, to their embarrassment, they lack the rational capacity to realize this. You and I have to point it out to them again and again: there is no position for anyone outside of the circle of knowledge. When you go off foul mouthing “all knowledge” you necessarily make a self-defeating statement. There is no special “safe space” for hyperskeptics. When will they get it, Kairosfocus?
Popper: “The quest for certainty.. . is mistaken …. though we may seek for truth … we can never be quite certain that we have found it” (OSE2 375)
This is a universal truth claim: 1. We can never be certain about any truth 2. (1.) is a truth claim. 3. We can never be certain about (1.) SELF-DEFEATING
Popper: ““No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain.” (OKN 360).
Again, a universal truth claim. 1. No theory is certain 2. (1.) is a theory. 3. (1.) is not certain. SELF-DEFEATING
Popper:  “Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading …” (UNQ 24).
This claim applied to itself is neither precise nor certain and on top of that “dangerously misleading.” SELF-DEFEATING
Popper: “We never know what we are talking about” (UNQ 27)
….. SELF-DEFEATINGOrigenes
March 25, 2023
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Origenes, important snippets. Clearly the Willard approach allows us to move forward. For example, due to the logic of inference to best explanation, scientific theories may be reliable but struggle to claim assured certainty. Observations are more reliable, including reliable predictive power in a tested range. Currently, on the day job, fatigue life and arguments that ultrasound frequency testing regimes are undermining the fatigue limit claims for ferrous materials, are coming up. Of course, the DHC 6 Twin Otter is Al based and has a regulatory limit on airframe, of 66k hours or 132k takeoff and landing cycles. Issues of grandfathering and regulatory reforms are on the table given short runway issues. I here point to direct, going concern world experience and challenges as we must anchor to real world life where decisions have consequences. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
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BPS, I trust my onward remarks show how much broader the points in the OP are than they may at first seem to be. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
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PM1, 5, that is precisely the cynicism I target, for cause. The trying to prove ourselves wrong approach privileges hyperskepticism and invites the cynical, irresponsible selectively hyperskeptical manipulation we are suffering. No, instead, let us seek to be responsible in regards to first duties of reason, to truth, to right reason, to warrant and wider prudence, recognising objective, knowable truth. As for metaphysical concepts, I suggest a microcosm/facets holistic approach in which truth claims assert that they accurately describe entities and/or states of affairs but also reflect duties and require logical considerations and epistemic ones, while often being self-referential. This is a source of the inherent difficulties of philosophy as we must be careful to neither beg questions nor end in self defeating self referential incoherence. To assert it is false that error exists is the latter, and implies a case of undeniable self evident truth. Our core concepts are metaphysically [including ontologically] entangled. For example, arguably a very powerful definition of Mathematics is, [the study of] the logic of structure and quantity. This also highlights the significance and power of definition as presenting apt, careful, responsible summary. Dictionaries are not useless, despite cynical dismissiveness. Which, Popper invites with remarks such as: " “Definitions do not play any very important part in science …. Our ‘scientific knowledge’ … remains entirely unaffected if we eliminate all definitions”" This is simply not true, what is an electron, what is momentum, what is force, what is energy, what is a wave, what is fatigue failure and is there a limiting stress below which it does not occur for certain materials and structures? KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
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BPS, the core point is, that knowledge is a term of language and concept that belongs to ordinary people (including ordinary technicians and scientists, historians, managers, teachers, journalists etc), so on pain of loaded equivocation, we must recognise the general usage and must avoid cynical dismissiveness. Where, yes, 99+% of practical knowledge is tied to our involvement in the going concern world, but what is said also implicitly embraces things like the post Godel uncertainty world for Math etc. For paradigm instance Newtonian dynamics, pre and post Relativity and Quantum, is clearly knowledge. That automatically means that knowledge must embrace a weak, defeasible [but tested and reliable] sense that can in certain cases become utterly certain [2 + 3 = 5] but also is open to weaker cases. That puts us where Dallas Willard and heirs with influences from Plantinga etc have come out. Notice, W & H as cited in 2: " Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric." I add, nor should we privilege hyperskepticism, a bane of intellectual life in our time and over the past several centuries that ends in cynicism and chaos as we see all around. Hence, knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Warrant is in response to Gettier et al, and highlights objectivity. Credible truth (so, reliability) implies the trustworthiness we need to bet the farm on, to take medicines, build aircraft, computers, ships, bridges etc while not being deliberately counterfactual models or calculated half-truths. Belief, so, acknowledged and held with responsible confidence. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
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PM1 @8
PM1: I think that for Popper, by “theory” he just means “empirical theory.”
You "think"? Please provide a quote of Popper saying that.
It follows that we can never attain certainty: "The quest for certainty.. . is mistaken .... though we may seek for truth ... we can never be quite certain that we have found it" (OSE2 375). "No particular theory may ever be regarded as absolutely certain .... No scientific theory is sacrosanct ..." (OKN 360). "Precision and certainty are false ideals. They are impossible to attain and therefore dangerously misleading ..." (UNQ 24). He summed up with an oftrepeated aphorism: "We never know what we are talking about" (UNQ 27). Accordingly, Popper refused to grant any philosophical value to definitions: "Definitions do not play any very important part in science .... Our 'scientific knowledge' ... remains entirely unaffected if we eliminate all definitions" (OSE2 14). "Definitions never give any factual knowledge about 'nature' or about the 'nature of things"' (C&R 20-21). "Definitions .... are never really needed, and rarely of any use" (RASC xxxvi). [Dykes quoting Popper ]
I am sure that Popper meant “We never know what we are talking about” in a non-self-defeating way.Origenes
March 25, 2023
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@9
I guess we must think differently about the meaning of metaphysics.
I suspect so!
BTW, Dewey is fine, but in my estimation, Alfred North Whitehead totally rocks : )
I've had lots of people urge me to read Process and Reality over the years, and I think I tried it a few summers ago. Didn't get any further than when I tried going it alone with Hegel's Science of Logic. Some things just need seminars or reading groups to get through. Anyway, my 'day job' (such as it is) is mostly in philosophy of mind and cognitive science, so a lot less on the a priori speculative side of things. Lately I've been getting more interested in the philosophical issues involved in AI.PyrrhoManiac1
March 25, 2023
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HBi Pyrrho - I like what you said! I'd quibble in regards to the separability of science and metaphysics, to which I'd say "it's not so". I guess we must think differently about the meaning of metaphysics. BTW, Dewey is fine, but in my estimation, Alfred North Whitehead totally rocks : )BPS from AZ
March 25, 2023
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@6
I note here that the theory ‘all swans are white’ differs in kind from e.g. the theory that 2+2=4. That is, it is not logically required for swans to be white, however, it is logically required for 2+2 to be 4. So, just because a theory of the type ‘all swans are white’ can be falsified does not imply that “we might be mistaken about any theory regardless of the amount of testing.”
I think that for Popper, by "theory" he just means "empirical theory." I don't know if he has any concern at all with the analytic truths of logic and mathematics.PyrrhoManiac1
March 25, 2023
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My position is that the most important concepts of all are ultimately metaphysical in nature, and as such, lie beyond simple notions of right and wrong. But I’ve yet to meet a materialist who actually understands this key point, much less agrees with it. I suppose you could say it’s baked into the logical positivist cake. …..not that there’s anything wrong with that! : )
Hi! I can understand where you're coming from here, though it's not my position at all. I am mostly influenced by the American pragmatists, but esp. Dewey, in how I think about what makes a philosophical question or problem meaningful. I admire the logical positivists (esp Carnap) but their project was doomed to fail from the start. These days I tend to think of science and metaphysics as distinct but ultimately inseparable: every scientific theory has entailments for what can be said to exist, and every metaphysical position has entailments for how empirical knowledge is possiblePyrrhoManiac1
March 25, 2023
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But Popper noticed a crucial asymmetry: the falsification of universal theories is logically possible; we need just one counter instance. ‘All swans are white’ cannot be verified by any finite number of positive instances of white swans. It can be falsified by one instance of a non-?white swan; as this ‘well-?supported’ theory eventually was falsified by the discovery of black swans in Australia. So, methodologically, we can make a virtue of producing bold universal conjectures that we do not pretend are ultimately supported by evidence and then test these conjectures as severely as we can: both by observation and criticism. We can happily admit that, in principle, we might be mistaken about any theory regardless of the amount of testing. This became known as ‘falsificationism’.
I note here that the theory ‘all swans are white’ differs in kind from e.g. the theory that 2+2=4. That is, it is not logically required for swans to be white, however, it is logically required for 2+2 to be 4. So, just because a theory of the type ‘all swans are white’ can be falsified does not imply that “we might be mistaken about any theory regardless of the amount of testing.”Origenes
March 25, 2023
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Hi Pyrro M. - My position is that the most important concepts of all are ultimately metaphysical in nature, and as such, lie beyond simple notions of right and wrong. But I've yet to meet a materialist who actually understands this key point, much less agrees with it. I suppose you could say it's baked into the logical positivist cake. .....not that there's anything wrong with that! : )BPS from AZ
March 25, 2023
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I'll admit I haven't read much Popper first-hand, just lots of second-hand information over the years. That said, I'll also admit that I find something quite admirable in his idea that we'd be better off spending less energy trying to show that we're right, and spend more energy trying to prove ourselves wrong.PyrrhoManiac1
March 25, 2023
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Thank you for pointing out this information - I'll be sure to study it in detail when I get the time. But a quick review seems to suggest that virtually every one of the alternate epistemic arguments presented therein are based solely on sense-based (what I'd call "representational") knowledge. As many people know, words can be slippery, and when it comes to the idea of "knowledge", there are other, more valid modes of knowing. Although I suspect many, if not most, dedicated materialists would probably be prone to disagree (which is fine by me).BPS from AZ
March 25, 2023
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F/N: Observe, Willard and heirs:
To have knowledge in the dispositional sense—where you know things you are not necessarily thinking about at the time—is to be able to represent something as it is on an adequate basis of thought or experience, not to exclude communications from qualified sources (“authority”). This is the “knowledge” of ordinary life, and it is what you expect of your electrician, auto mechanic, math teacher, and physician. Knowledge is not rare, and it is not esoteric . . . no satisfactory general description of “an adequate basis of thought or experience” has ever been achieved. We are nevertheless able to determine in many specific types of cases that such a basis is or is not present [p.19] . . . . Knowledge, but not mere belief or feeling, generally confers the right to act and to direct action, or even to form and supervise policy. [p. 20] In any area of human activity, knowledge brings certain advantages. Special considerations aside, knowledge authorizes one to act, to direct action, to develop and supervise policy, and to teach. It does so because, as everyone assumes, it enables us to deal more successfully with reality: with what we can count on, have to deal with, or are apt to have bruising encounters with. Knowledge involves assured [--> warranted, credible] truth, and truth in our representations and beliefs is very like accuracy in the sighting mechanism on a gun. If the mechanism is accurately aligned—is “true,” it enables those who use it with care to hit an intended target. [p. 4, Dallas Willard & Literary Heirs, The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge, Routledge|Taylor& Francis Group, 2018. ]
This is where we must begin, to straighten things out. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2023
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L&FP, 67: So-called “critical rationalism” and the blunder of denying [defeat-able] warrant for knowledgekairosfocus
March 25, 2023
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