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Is Mathematics a Natural Science? (Is that important?)

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In our time there is a tendency to treat Mathematics as though it is a natural science.

Black Swan with Cygnets

This reflects in part the shift in meaning of the term Science in recent centuries, from knowledge and systematic bodies of more or less established knowledge, to the natural sciences based on inductive reasoning on observation and experiment. Where, inductive here denotes arguments whereby evidence — typically empirical — supports but does not logically demonstrate a conclusion, as a rule provisionally. Such has been multiplied by Scientism, the view, assumption or implication that Science ring fences and monopolises reliable, serious knowledge. (Of course, such Scientism is self-referentially incoherent as this is an epistemological and thus philosophical claim; it fails its own test.)

In a current thread, this has led to an exchange, worth headlining for reflection:

>>KF, 4: . . . PS: I have also recently seen someone describing Mathematics as a “Science” — a sign of Scientism’s attempt to monopolise all serious knowledge. Of course Scientism is itself self-referentially incoherent. However, more importantly, Mathematics is precisely not a discipline in which theoretical constructs are empirically tested and are taken as a sort of weak form, provisional knowledge due to empirical reliability. We need sterner stuff, rooted in logic and coherence, driven in the end by self-evident first principles of right reason. For example, number itself pivots on distinct identity, e.g. A vs ~A leads to 1 and 2 etc. Indeed, this pattern of being rooted in logic is part of why Mathematics plays the role of a plumbline in considerations on scientific endeavours. We need the logic of structure and quantity (including space etc) to be a standard of reference. That we can do Mathematics is a sign.

BO’H, 5: Eh? The four colour map theorem was a theoretical construct that was empirically tested: they narrow down the possible maps, and then used a computer to literally try every combination. Other postulates are certainly “a sort of weak form, provisional knowledge due to empirical reliability”, because not every combination can be tested, and no other proofs are available (e.g. Golbach’s conjecture).

KF, 6: . . .  mathematics has an emphasis on axiomatic systems and on results derived therefrom by logical, step by step proofs, accumulating into what is now a huge body of knowledge. You know full well that proofs are generally not done by empirical examples and making an inference to generality or to the best current explanation or the like. [NB: I made an error regarding BO’H’s background, corrected later; not material.]

BO’H, 9: . . . I gave an example @5 where mathematics was done empirically. You just ignored that comment . . . [Actually, posting difficulties — Internet access here is spotty right now — and events intervened, then I thought I could wait.]

KF, 10: . . . proof of a finite result by complete enumeration is not the same as an empirical, inference to best explanation or generalisation from a consistent pattern, inductive argument. It is like proving a logical conclusion by truth table based examination of cases instead of doing the algebra of logic.

EMH, 11: The material universe is finite and discrete. Mathematics is infinite. Therefore, the material universe is not all that exists. Furthermore, anything that can do math cannot have a material origin. Thus, it is impossible to explain our ability to do math by evolution. This is one of those things that is so obvious materialists just ignore it.

JAD, 12: Go read this there.

BO’H, 13: empirical does not mean “inference to best explanation or generalisation from a consistent pattern, inductive argument”, so you’re shifting the goalposts, and it is nonsense to suggest that complete enumeration means that something is not empirical – “all swans are white” is a statement that can be tested empirically by looking at all swans (if all swans were white!).

KF, 14: . . .  Inferences of inductive character as described are the heart of scientific methods and reasoning. Mathematics, since the days of the ancient Geometers, has been deductive. The number and colour of swans is an indefinite value stretching into the future, the unobserved past and involving unobserved cases in different places — you CANNOT inspect all swans, so inferring whiteness on the pattern was inductive and failed in the 1700’s. A conclusion based on exhaustive inspection of a finite, definite set of cases, is simply not the same as such induction. And note, the issue pivots on reasoning pattern. Mathematics simply does not work in the way Natural Sciences (much less social and psychological/ behavioural ones) do. Indeed, it is the great gap in the naturalistic account, dealing with abstract entities and logical relationships that then by force of how logic affects possibilities and necessities of being, constrain what may be in an instantiated world. The logic of structure and quantity stands athwart the rush of evolutionary materialism and challenges it with cases that cannot be avoided, but whose full significance can be suppressed. For instance, absent a responsible, rational, free, morally governed mind, the integrity of thought and value on truth and doing it right required for Mathematics is fatally undermined. And that brings with it all of that stuff about how can minds be free, and how can minds be morally governed. Where, mere programmed mechanical necessity and/or chance variability do not account for rational, responsible freedom. Cannot account for it. That is where men like Euler speak still, and not just in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi or the like, an expression that shows the deep coherence across huge swathes of Mathematics that in the course of their development did not at all need to come together like that, as far as we know. Which is extremely suggestive on the core nature of the roots of the world.>>

I think this exchange is worth reflecting on. END

Comments
rvb8: From Wikipedia: "Psychiatry is the medical specialty devoted to the diagnosis, prevention, study, and treatment of mental disorders." and: "The term "psychiatry" was first coined by the German physician Johann Christian Reil in 1808 and literally means the 'medical treatment of the soul' (psych- "soul" from Ancient Greek psykhe "soul"; -iatry "medical treatment" from Gk. iatrikos "medical" from iasthai "to heal"). A medical doctor specializing in psychiatry is a psychiatrist." Why don't you check your terms, before you speak? You are confounding psychiatry with other disciplines, like neurophysiology (Neurophysiology (from Greek neuron, "nerve"; physis, "nature, origin"; and logia, "knowledge") is a branch of physiology and neuroscience that is concerned with the study of the functioning of the nervous system.) and neuropharmacology (Neuropharmacology is the study of how drugs affect cellular function in the nervous system, and the neural mechanisms through which they influence behavior.). Try to be more careful when you use words, and if someone corrects you, don't just insist in your wrong ideas. Your wish that "psychiatrists must be excellent biologists" is certainly noble, but unfortunately, being a medical doctor, I know many of them, and I would never say that they are. Of course mathematics is the tool by which empirical sciences are built: but that does not mean at all that it is an empirical science. Again, look at my discussion with Bob O'H in the other thread. I don't know if materialists give more logical answers. I am not a materialist. I don't consider myself a creationist. I am a convinced supporter of ID theory. And I am not, certainly, one who judges others according to easy generalizations. Yes, I "realise the cartoon BobO’H led you to is from an atheist cartoon series". And I appreciate it just the same. I appreciate a lot of things that come from atheists. Again, I am not one who judges others according to easy generalizations. I have nothing against atheists. I believe that anyone must choose his own faith according to his personal conscience and intuition, and stick to that in his life to verify if his choice was a good one. So, sincere atheists have all my appreciation. What I don't appreciate are stupid persons, arrogant persons, unreasonable persons, aggressive persons, and many other kinds, be they atheists or religious people, or neither. I don't appreciate people who are not sincere or honest in sharing what they believe with others who believe differently. I don't appreciate a priori judgement of persons and thoughts. I love intellectual confrontation, even if strong and apparently aggressive, provided that it is sincere and honest and essentially respectful. You may not believe it, but many of my favourite writers or directors are probably atheists. I love them even more for that. Nobody can express deep religious truths as well as an atheist, IMO. On the other hand, I must say that present day ideological, scientism based atheists are a really boring, dogmatic and disappointing lot.gpuccio
July 13, 2017
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gpuccio @34, "Psychiatry is about the pathology of the psyche..." No, psychiatry is the study of the biological/chemical reactions in the brain that give rise to actions, both normal, and more interstingly, abnormal. This is why phsychiatrists can give you extremely powerful mind altering drugs, which directly alter your mood and personality in a generally predictable way. To understand these brain functions, psychiatrists must be excellent biologists, to understand how organic cells, and diseases effect the pathologies, you say, psychiatry must understand. To understand these organic biological brain functions, the biologist must have an intimate knowledge of base chemical interactions; the realm of chemistry. To understand these chemical interactions, the scientist must know the physics of how chemicals join, divide, collide, and interact; physics. To understand these physical interactions a language must be used to describe these interactions. We call this language mathematics: Ergo, mathematics is, and is the base of Natural Science. And once again, why are materialist answers to questions so much more logical than creationist's answers? Materialist: Competition, in a selective environment produces fitness; fitness is heritable, therefore the most successful animals at passing on their genetic material hand down these selected advantagous reproductive changes. Creationist: God did it. (Ah huh; How?) Nobody knows, don't bother; move along; silly question. TWSYF @42, you realise the cartoon BobO'H led you to is from an atheist cartoon series? It is a pure materialist joke; basically the physical sciences, and the physical world are all we have; and it's enough.:)rvb8
July 12, 2017
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DS, key things that are framework for worlds to exist are going to be necessary beings. Where, were there ever utter non-being, nothingness would forever obtain as non being has no causal powers. If something now is, something always was, sufficient that those world framework necessary beings also always were. Such things are beginning-less, eternal and endless. Indestructible. So, we are looking through a spy-hole at eternity here. Numbers like 0, 1, 2 . . . are real weird, weirder than we ever learned in elementary school. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2017
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tribune7, I'm not sure that I agree that after the heat death of the universe, nature ceases to exist. However, I also think that it's a bit strange to consider numbers and other abstract entities to be part of nature, so I accept (for now, at least) your point in #45.daveS
July 12, 2017
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DS, your words. You said you believe the number 1 will survive the death of the universe. If something can survive the universe it is not part of nature. We should obviously be careful about talking past each other and getting into semantic nitpicking but I think it is fair to say that the heat death of the universe is the end of nature hence what survives it cannot be part of nature.tribune7
July 12, 2017
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tribune7, While I do think you can make a case for the number 1 (and abstract entities in general) not being part of nature, I don't understand how it follows from the statement I made about the heat death of the universe. Could you elaborate?daveS
July 12, 2017
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rvb :mathematics, being at the base of all materialist understandings of the universe, is indeed a Natural Science. OK but what is more fun and can be quite didactic is to point out what is at the base of all materialist misunderstandings of the universe. Example: consider the encounter of astounding beauty say at the museum, the materialist RVB would need to say to his companion: "WOW what amazing mathematics are at the heart of that beautiful work. Otherwise how could the action potentials on the neurons in my brain behave in the way they do right now? And what amazing mathematics makes me say 'WOW' at a time such as now. And what amazing mathematics makes you think I am out of my mind when in my own mind I am plainly normal. Mathematics has me going 'WOW 'cause it has the real wow factor, for sure you better believe it."groovamos
July 12, 2017
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tribune @ 45: "If the number 1 will survive after the death of the universe, the number 1 is not part of nature." Excellent point, of course, and one that seems to evade the a/mats. Without realizing it, they are admitting a major point of theism. If mathematics transcends the universe (space, time, matter, and energy)...why not God?Truth Will Set You Free
July 12, 2017
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--DS I don’t think the number 1 will cease to exist after the heat death of the universe when there are no minds left (my opinion of course).-- If the number 1 will survive after the death of the universe, the number 1 is not part of nature.tribune7
July 12, 2017
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I argue, as others have done before me, that mathematical concepts and ideas exist objectively, outside of the physical world and outside of the world of consciousness. We mathematicians discover them and are able to connect to this hidden reality through our consciousness. If Leo Tolstoy had not lived we would never have known Anna Karenina. There is no reason to believe that another author would have written that same novel. However, if Pythagoras had not lived, someone else would have discovered exactly the same Pythagoras theorem. Moreover, that theorem means the same to us today as it meant to Pythagoras 2,500 years ago. - Edward Frenkel
Heartlander
July 12, 2017
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The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is the world’s largest and most powerful particle accelerator. It first started up on 10 September 2008, and remains the latest addition to CERN’s accelerator complex. The LHC consists of a 27-kilometre ring of superconducting magnets with a number of accelerating structures to boost the energy of the particles along the way. Inside the accelerator, two high-energy particle beams travel at close to the speed of light before they are made to collide. The beams travel in opposite directions in separate beam pipes – two tubes kept at ultrahigh vacuum. They are guided around the accelerator ring by a strong magnetic field maintained by superconducting electromagnets. The electromagnets are built from coils of special electric cable that operates in a superconducting state, efficiently conducting electricity without resistance or loss of energy. This requires chilling the magnets to ?271.3°C – a temperature colder than outer space…
https://home.cern/topics/large-hadron-collider Why was it necessary to build the LHC? One of the reasons the LHC was built was to verify the existence of a sub-atomic particle called the Higgs Boson. But Peter Higgs, along with others, had already predicted the existence of the so-called Higgs Boson mathematically. The standard model had already been proven to be highly accurate, the Higgs Boson was just the last piece of the puzzle. So why spend some 9 billion USD to confirm the existence of some exotic particle when it had already been worked out using blackboards and chalk? In other words, why spend the money on the LHC when you can do it a lot more cheaply with theoretical physicists using blackboards, chalk and math? Obviously, there some things that empirical science can do that math (or “maths”) cannot. Experimentation is one of them. The so called standard model of particle physics could have never been developed as far as it was without beginning from real world experimental results. The LHC is important because we will almost certainly make discoveries about things we don’t even know about.john_a_designer
July 12, 2017
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Bob O'H @ 33: Love it. Thanks for sharing that.Truth Will Set You Free
July 12, 2017
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KF @ 39: "In short we are seeing a truncated worldview that cannot even account for itself as a system constructed by thinking, however flawed." Borrowing from gpuccio @ 34. Brilliant.Truth Will Set You Free
July 12, 2017
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Math exists. Therefore everything arose from nothing. Except God, of course. A/mat logic.Truth Will Set You Free
July 12, 2017
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PS: mathematics cannot explain physics and physics and chemistry do not explain biology, you are right to highlight information in just the mechanics of cells. Beyond, lies whatever it takes for us to be rationally and responsibly free and morally governed. In short we are seeing a truncated worldview that cannot even account for itself as a system constructed by thinking, however flawed.kairosfocus
July 12, 2017
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Sounds very plausible in too many cases, but some at least are on the side of the angels.kairosfocus
July 12, 2017
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KF: Maybe, maybe...gpuccio
July 12, 2017
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GP so lawyers are serving the old troublemaker? KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2017
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Bob O'H: Funny! :) That reminds me of the famous joke about the oldest profession: One evening in a bar, a doctor, a lawyer and an engineer spend time talking over a drink. After a few drinks and some stories, they raise the question of the origin of their respective professions. The doctor begins: "In the beginning in Genesis Chapter 1, God takes a rib from Adam to create Eve. God was a surgeon, so it is the medical profession is the oldest. " The engineer agrees, but "Yes, you are right about that, but before that, God created the Earth, the Sun and the universe out of chaos. So God was an engineer before being surgeon. Engineers are therefore the oldest profession." The lawyer, smiling, gently asked, "And who do you think created chaos?"gpuccio
July 12, 2017
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rvb8: Psychiatry is about the pathology of the psyche. Why should it explain psychology (the physiology of the psyche)? Biology does not explain psychiatry, least of all psychology, even if there are of course many important connections. Psychiatry and psychology are about subjective experiences, and of course there are objective connections to those subjective experiences, many of them detectable by biology. But as biology cannot explain consciousness (see Chalmer's "hard problem"), so it cannot explain the manifestations of consciousness and the processes of the mind. Chemistry definitely does not explain biology, in particular the functional information that is the foundation of biological objects, as ID theory clearly demonstrates. Physics and chemistry are not really different things. I can agree with you that physics is more basic, so in a sense it can be said to "explain" chemistry. As you can see, this is the only example in your quote where the word "explain" is correct. It is absolutely wrong to say that mathematics explains physics. They are of course two different things. Physics is the explanation of observed facts from the outer world. Mathematics is a mind derived deductive science based on inner insights. The correct concept is that physics uses mathematical tools to explain observed facts. Which brings us to the "big question" that I discussed with Bob O'H here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/what-accounts-for-humans-math-ability/#comment-635539 at posts 19 and 24. In no way that means that mathematics "explains" physics.gpuccio
July 12, 2017
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I'll just leave this here... https://xkcd.com/435/Bob O'H
July 12, 2017
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rvb8: "I read somewhere that psychiatry explains psychology quite well, that biology explains psychiatry, that chemistry explains biology, and that physics explains chemistry, and finally, that mathematics explains physics." Maybe you should improve the quality of what you read! :)gpuccio
July 12, 2017
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And Pindi arrives @23 to explain your argument for you. I read somewhere that psychiatry explains psychology quite well, that biology explains psychiatry, that chemistry explains biology, and that physics explains chemistry, and finally, that mathematics explains physics. Hence mathematics,being at the base of all materialist understandings of the universe, is indeed a Natural Science.rvb8
July 12, 2017
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DS, it is your view. Contemplate, too, that eternal mind is very possible and would transcend such a dissipation of our cosmos. KF PS: That includes the logic of serious candidate necessary beings, that they will be impossible [as a square circle is impossible by dint of mutual contradiction of core characteristics] or else actual. For, if possible, in at least one possible world, but as framework to any world, in all possible worlds and thus of course this actualised one.kairosfocus
July 12, 2017
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KF,
DS, you have in effect acknowledged eternal, abstract objects as necessary beings; but such entities are contemplated by minds.
Yes, if there happen to be minds around. I don't think the number 1 will cease to exist after the heat death of the universe when there are no minds left (my opinion of course).daveS
July 12, 2017
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Trib7, serious questions indeed. The stuff of Mathematics is simply utterly ontologically different from that of the physical world we inhabit. And yet, it and wider themes of logic pervade that physical world. Our temporal reality is pregnant with the eternal. With the mathematical as a key case in point. KFkairosfocus
July 12, 2017
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EMH & TWSYF et al, yes, there is much to contemplate. I encourage it, though we should bear in mind the issue of contrasting natures of Mathematics and the Natural Sciences, including the utter dependency of the latter on the former. Do not overlook the role of the voice of conscience urging us to diligence, truth and right including right reason, in our exploration of the logic of structure and quantity. Where, already we see that even those seemingly simple whole numbers from our ABC 123 days, are eternal, necessary beings, with infinity lurking. Surely, thou has put eternity in our hearts Oh, Lord. With the stuff of Mathematics as one of the witnesses. So, the issue is, will we listen to the testimony of conscience regarding the wider import of Mathematics? Thanks again, let us ponder. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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Dionisio, Calculus brings us face to face with change, the infinitely small and by reflection the infinitely big. It also points to eternity through the root concept, number and time. It opens up issues over the infinity and continuity or otherwise of space, hence a whole world of geometry beyond what Euclid pondered. where of course the abstract world of mathematical entities intersects that of our physical experience in challenging, stimulating ways. So yes, calculus has much to teach us as we further contemplate what it was and is saying. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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Pindi, have you ever seriously contemplated the logic of being and how it interacts with that of quantity and structure? Including our being that sustains a mathematical enterprise through duty to truth and right? If you do so, you will come to appreciate the way of the God of the Philosophers. In that context, this is a considerable way from the Messiah coming in fulfillment of prophecy centuries ahead of time and in part of that fulfillment being the wounded healer redeemer and energiser of moral transformation, rising from death with 500 witnesses etc. Of this we have Paul's reflections after he had spent a considerable time in Athens, culminating in his discussion with the Stoics and Epicureans, heirs of Plato et al. Oh, how he must have pondered the contrasts of the Greek world between Macedonia, Athens, Corinth and Ephesus. But, the two lines of thought mutually illuminate, e,g. I recall the flash of insight when I recognised the interaction between eternality and necessary being, observing a need for what I now call a finitely remote world-root. In all of this, the logic of structure and quantity helps to keep us on the straight path, being a point we must all have in common, Mathematics by formal name. And, BTW, Numbers exist as necessary beings, where non-being cannot be the root of an actual world. So, we have eternity and infinity in our hearts and minds, as well as a duty to truth and right that energises the integrity of Mathematics; highlighting our moral struggle and guilt. We would do well to ponder these things in the side-light of the Hebraic heritage of prophetic tradition fulfilled in a wounded healer redeemer who rose from the dead with 500 witnesses, thus founding a movement foundational to our civilisation as we have known it, even in a stage of widespread apostasy and incoherence: Christendom, now usually styled Western Civilisation. (And no, current media-trumpeted nonsense about equating this with Nazism etc is historically ignorant rhetorical folly. The talking heads need to go back to school to learn a saner balance in understanding our civilisation.) KF PS: I will add that confidence in redemption is what is giving me some comfort just now as I deal with the wrenching realities of parting for now. Thou hast put eternity in our hearts Oh Lord.kairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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DS, you have in effect acknowledged eternal, abstract objects as necessary beings; but such entities are contemplated by minds. There is good reason to consider that numbers and other entities of Mathematics are frameworking reality for any world to exist, e.g. distinct identity implies two-ness, A with ~A. Where, as utter non-being has no causal capability, were there ever such that would forever obtain, i.e. something of adequate capability to root our world is a necessary being, independent of others. The serious candidates for such point in the direction of mind of a sort. Especially where we are part of the resulting reality with our own mathematical-logical ability with the implied moral government seen in our urge to truth and right involved in sustained programmes of mathematical thought. That does point to personal, morally governed mind at world-root, which in my view is finitely remote to traverse to now in finite causally successive stages. Your implied challenge is to assess views on the roots of a mathematically infused reality, one which simply goes far beyond the world of inductively grounded empirically based inferences at the heart of natural sciences. And yet, absent accepting mathematics, science collapses. Where materiality as imagined eternal root is both blind and dubious, especially in accounting for mind; but also as such existence is apparently inherently of composite, arranged character, inherently contingent and so not necessary, e.g. note multiverse hypotheses. We should look elsewhere for things that must be framework to all possible worlds. Ideal, impersonal mentality does not effectively account for moral government and our urge to find cleansing from our guilt-burden. And more, given what else is going on for me, I can only outline. KF PS: I recall many years ago how alien Plato's world of forms seemed. I know now that part of that was I had then had little or no exposure to the logic of being: non-being, possible vs impossible, contingent vs necessary. Where of course Mathematics studies a closely linked theme, the logic of structure and quantity, also implying numbers, space, multi-dimensionality [and vectors, matrices etc, where complex numbers are vectors], change, stasis, the discrete and continuous, the infinite and infinitesimal etc. Plato may not have seen everything but as usual as we go we see him with his friends on the way back. And it is therefore ever haunting that the old Christian answer has a point: those eternal abstract realities are eternally contemplated by God.kairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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