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Is Mathematics a Natural Science? (Is that important?)

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In our time there is a tendency to treat Mathematics as though it is a natural science.

Black Swan with Cygnets

This reflects in part the shift in meaning of the term Science in recent centuries, from knowledge and systematic bodies of more or less established knowledge, to the natural sciences based on inductive reasoning on observation and experiment. Where, inductive here denotes arguments whereby evidence — typically empirical — supports but does not logically demonstrate a conclusion, as a rule provisionally. Such has been multiplied by Scientism, the view, assumption or implication that Science ring fences and monopolises reliable, serious knowledge. (Of course, such Scientism is self-referentially incoherent as this is an epistemological and thus philosophical claim; it fails its own test.)

In a current thread, this has led to an exchange, worth headlining for reflection:

>>KF, 4: . . . PS: I have also recently seen someone describing Mathematics as a “Science” — a sign of Scientism’s attempt to monopolise all serious knowledge. Of course Scientism is itself self-referentially incoherent. However, more importantly, Mathematics is precisely not a discipline in which theoretical constructs are empirically tested and are taken as a sort of weak form, provisional knowledge due to empirical reliability. We need sterner stuff, rooted in logic and coherence, driven in the end by self-evident first principles of right reason. For example, number itself pivots on distinct identity, e.g. A vs ~A leads to 1 and 2 etc. Indeed, this pattern of being rooted in logic is part of why Mathematics plays the role of a plumbline in considerations on scientific endeavours. We need the logic of structure and quantity (including space etc) to be a standard of reference. That we can do Mathematics is a sign.

BO’H, 5: Eh? The four colour map theorem was a theoretical construct that was empirically tested: they narrow down the possible maps, and then used a computer to literally try every combination. Other postulates are certainly “a sort of weak form, provisional knowledge due to empirical reliability”, because not every combination can be tested, and no other proofs are available (e.g. Golbach’s conjecture).

KF, 6: . . .  mathematics has an emphasis on axiomatic systems and on results derived therefrom by logical, step by step proofs, accumulating into what is now a huge body of knowledge. You know full well that proofs are generally not done by empirical examples and making an inference to generality or to the best current explanation or the like. [NB: I made an error regarding BO’H’s background, corrected later; not material.]

BO’H, 9: . . . I gave an example @5 where mathematics was done empirically. You just ignored that comment . . . [Actually, posting difficulties — Internet access here is spotty right now — and events intervened, then I thought I could wait.]

KF, 10: . . . proof of a finite result by complete enumeration is not the same as an empirical, inference to best explanation or generalisation from a consistent pattern, inductive argument. It is like proving a logical conclusion by truth table based examination of cases instead of doing the algebra of logic.

EMH, 11: The material universe is finite and discrete. Mathematics is infinite. Therefore, the material universe is not all that exists. Furthermore, anything that can do math cannot have a material origin. Thus, it is impossible to explain our ability to do math by evolution. This is one of those things that is so obvious materialists just ignore it.

JAD, 12: Go read this there.

BO’H, 13: empirical does not mean “inference to best explanation or generalisation from a consistent pattern, inductive argument”, so you’re shifting the goalposts, and it is nonsense to suggest that complete enumeration means that something is not empirical – “all swans are white” is a statement that can be tested empirically by looking at all swans (if all swans were white!).

KF, 14: . . .  Inferences of inductive character as described are the heart of scientific methods and reasoning. Mathematics, since the days of the ancient Geometers, has been deductive. The number and colour of swans is an indefinite value stretching into the future, the unobserved past and involving unobserved cases in different places — you CANNOT inspect all swans, so inferring whiteness on the pattern was inductive and failed in the 1700’s. A conclusion based on exhaustive inspection of a finite, definite set of cases, is simply not the same as such induction. And note, the issue pivots on reasoning pattern. Mathematics simply does not work in the way Natural Sciences (much less social and psychological/ behavioural ones) do. Indeed, it is the great gap in the naturalistic account, dealing with abstract entities and logical relationships that then by force of how logic affects possibilities and necessities of being, constrain what may be in an instantiated world. The logic of structure and quantity stands athwart the rush of evolutionary materialism and challenges it with cases that cannot be avoided, but whose full significance can be suppressed. For instance, absent a responsible, rational, free, morally governed mind, the integrity of thought and value on truth and doing it right required for Mathematics is fatally undermined. And that brings with it all of that stuff about how can minds be free, and how can minds be morally governed. Where, mere programmed mechanical necessity and/or chance variability do not account for rational, responsible freedom. Cannot account for it. That is where men like Euler speak still, and not just in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi or the like, an expression that shows the deep coherence across huge swathes of Mathematics that in the course of their development did not at all need to come together like that, as far as we know. Which is extremely suggestive on the core nature of the roots of the world.>>

I think this exchange is worth reflecting on. END

Comments
Maths exists. Therefore Jesus.Pindi
July 11, 2017
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So, materialistic philosophy is false. Therefore, things like the soul and God can exist. There is great evidence they exist, which is only denied upon materialistic presuppositions. Materialistic presuppositions are false. Therefore, there is great evidence the soul and God exist (consciousness, purpose in creation, religious experience, the historical account of Jesus, etc.) and it is much more reasonable to believe in their existence than non-existence. It's all very simple. We only make it difficult by presupposing materialism, which we know to be false.EricMH
July 11, 2017
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TWSYF, If I had to choose one view to defend, it would probably be some form of platonism, which I believe at least a plurality of modern mathematicians subscribe to. Of course there are several objections to that view, as there seem to be against all accounts of mathematics. So I would say that mathematical objects such as numbers exist in some sense, but not in space and/or time. They never began to exist, so did not arise through some random process.daveS
July 11, 2017
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daveS @ 17: Got it. So what is your accepted belief system regarding the existence of mathematics? Do mathematics transcend space and time...the universe? Did the highly orderly and coherent systems mathematics arise out of presumably random actions within the Singularity, or do they transcend even the Singularity?Truth Will Set You Free
July 11, 2017
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KF, Believe me, I spend a great deal of time (probably too much) pondering the nature of abstract entities, logic, and so forth. Not so much on "evolutionary materialism" or various brands of idealism, because they don't interest me a great deal.daveS
July 11, 2017
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DS, ponder the nature of mathematics as abstract, logical reasoning/contemplation of inherently abstract entities starting with number. Further ponder the responsible rational freedom thus moral government required. Then ponder evolutionary materialism and atheistical idealism and how they account not so much for mathematical phenomena but for mathematicians able to reason about such. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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TWSYF,
The existence of mathematics does seem to pose a problem for a/mat philosophy. If nature didn’t create mathematics (as you suggest), then who or what did? Don’t a/mats believe only in nature (even at the singularity level)?
I don't see that it's necessary for mathematics to have been created by anything or anyone. It's hard for me to conceive of anything/one creating the number 1, for example. I'm an atheist, but not a materialist. Perhaps mathematics does pose a problem for one of both of these positions, but in particular, I don't know why the existence of mathematics is a problem for atheists especially.daveS
July 11, 2017
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KF,
DS, you are speaking after the fact, as well you know. I am speaking in the context of the discovery, over many centuries. KF
If in the passage I quoted in #3, you are saying just that the historical development of mathematics could have happened differently, there is no question about that. Perhaps the Greeks could have discovered the complex numbers, for example. I interpreted it as making a somewhat more radical statement.daveS
July 11, 2017
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DS, you are speaking after the fact, as well you know. I am speaking in the context of the discovery, over many centuries. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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daveS @ 11: The existence of mathematics does seem to pose a problem for a/mat philosophy. If nature didn't create mathematics (as you suggest), then who or what did? Don't a/mats believe only in nature (even at the singularity level)?Truth Will Set You Free
July 11, 2017
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Math is real. Math is infinite. The universe is finite. Therefore, the universe is not all that exists.EricMH
July 11, 2017
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Math is a tool of natural science but as mathematics doesn't have physical properties, I can't see how it would be a natural science. How do you measure numbers?tribune7
July 11, 2017
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TWSYF, I have doubts about whether mathematics is "created" at all. Certainly I don't maintain that it was created by nature via random mutations and unguided processes.daveS
July 11, 2017
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dave S @ 6: What is your best explanation for nature's ability to create all the different types of mathematics (algebra, calculus, geometry, etc.) using random mutations and unguided processes. I am not expecting any empirical proof (none exist for that question), but am merely interested in how you think nature pulled it off.Truth Will Set You Free
July 11, 2017
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KF, pi, e, i, etc. all arise in many different areas of mathematics. But I can't identify any such areas that I believe could have come together differently than they did, so I would hesitate to sign on to your statement. On the other hand, I can't rule out the possibility that it's true, obviously. That's all I'm saying.daveS
July 11, 2017
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PS: Let me clip Wiki on part of the above:
The concepts raised by Gödel's incompleteness theorems are very similar to those raised by the halting problem, and the proofs are quite similar. In fact, a weaker form of the First Incompleteness Theorem is an easy consequence of the undecidability of the halting problem. This weaker form differs from the standard statement of the incompleteness theorem by asserting that a complete, consistent and sound axiomatization of all statements about natural numbers is unachievable. The "sound" part is the weakening: it means that we require the axiomatic system in question to prove only true statements about natural numbers. It is important to observe that the statement of the standard form of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem is completely unconcerned with the question of truth, but only concerns the issue of whether it can be proven.
And also:
The incompleteness theorems apply to formal systems that are of sufficient complexity to express the basic arithmetic of the natural numbers and which are complete, consistent, and effectively axiomatized, these concepts being detailed below. Particularly in the context of first-order logic, formal systems are also called formal theories. In general, a formal system is a deductive apparatus that consists of a particular set of axioms along with rules of symbolic manipulation (or rules of inference) that allow for the derivation of new theorems from the axioms. One example of such a system is first-order Peano arithmetic, a system in which all variables are intended to denote natural numbers. In other systems, such as set theory, only some sentences of the formal system express statements about the natural numbers. The incompleteness theorems are about formal provability within these systems, rather than about "provability" in an informal sense. There are several properties that a formal system may have, including completeness, consistency, and the existence of an effective axiomatization. The incompleteness theorems show that systems which contain a sufficient amount of arithmetic cannot possess all three of these properties.
kairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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DS, from what fields of mathematics did pi, e, i, counting numbers, exponentiation and the like come from. We both know that so we can stop the oh you are not clear enough game, please. And, we already had an exchange on just this some months back. I have already pointed out just why I speak of issues of an irreducible uncertainty about axiomatic systems post Godel, about how a unifying point like this provides a deep confidence, and about the precise reason why for all we knew in advance when things like geometry, algebra, imaginary and complex numbers, sequences and series etc were being developed this result did not have to be; as opposed to the surprise when it was produced, which has led to this result being termed the most beautiful expression in all mathematics. Right now I have far more pressing and sobering matters on my mind. KFkairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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KF, Do you have any specific candidates for "huge swathes of Mathematics that in the course of their development did not at all need to come together like that"? For example, perhaps two divisions of mathematics which fit together perfectly in our world, but do not fit together so neatly in some other possible world? Note: If you are saying that you're not sure whether all mathematical truths are necessary or not, then I would have no argument with that.daveS
July 11, 2017
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DS, the issue is that there were several domains of mathematics explored from utterly different angles, so that it is astonishing to find such coming together to literally fit with infinite precision [note the as far as we know], and this is the more amazing post Godel. Oddly this is where I am in effect taking an inductive view on a key finding, one that gives me confidence in broad, deep coherence. KF PS: On mathematical truth claims, we need to hold the point highlighted by Godel seriously, so that we recognise possibilities of incoherence and/or incompleteness in our schemes of reasoning. That said, many key mathematical truths or facts are self evident and/or necessary.kairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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I found the EMH, 11 comments particularly interesting and persuasive.Truth Will Set You Free
July 11, 2017
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KF,
That is where men like Euler speak still, and not just in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi or the like, an expression that shows the deep coherence across huge swathes of Mathematics that in the course of their development did not at all need to come together like that, as far as we know.
This suggests to me that you believe some mathematical truths may be contingent. Is that correct?daveS
July 11, 2017
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Interesting topic. Thanks. I always liked mathematics. Enjoyed calculus in 11th grade. One of my best friends from high school got a Ph.D. in mathematics at the Moscow State University and teaches math at another university. He was the best in math in my high school class. Well ahead of the crowd. I recall an occasion when we played chess while he was blindfolded and I had to tell him my moves because he could not see anything. He memorized the situation after each move. It didn't take him too long to win. Lately I've enjoyed listening to Oxford University mathematics professor John Lennox. Now we may enjoy seeing how much mathematics is used in biology.Dionisio
July 11, 2017
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Is Mathematics a Natural Science?kairosfocus
July 11, 2017
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