Are atheists immoral?

_{Denyse O'Leary

August 1, 2011

Atheism}

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File:GAto.jpg — There IS a God. I am GOD! You are DOOMED!!/Sanchez

Recently, there’s been some noise abroad that atheists are widely distusted, immoral, and foolish. As a generality, it puzzles me. If a guy wouldn’t kick the cat before he decided he was an atheist, why would he start afterward? Antony “There IS a God” Flew was an atheist for most of his career and – from the accounts I’ve heard – a highly moral man. He didn’t suddenly become moral when he admitted to Gerald Schroeder that design in life forms and the universe show that there is a God.

Then it occurred to me: It’s not so much that atheists are immoral, but that immoral people are often atheists. That is, the guy who kicks cats anyway, and fears divine retribution, may resolve his problem by deciding that there is no God and therefore no divine retribution.

Then he goes back to kicking cats in peace. Other atheists don’t like him but what can they do?

Comments

velikovskys at 5: In the great white North, humane societies often have police powers.* Problem is, in another society, cats are tormented as witches and police powers are invoked to prevent their rescue. So if we are concerned about the moral issues, we must be clear on their basis. tragic mishap at 9, yes. The point is simply that materialist atheism must attract a disproportionate number of people who don't want to be judged for what they do. They don't even need to rationalize. That doesn't mean that ethical atheists are pleased with the fact that those people embrace atheism. But they can't stop them by saying "You can't do this and be a good atheist." It is very easy, by contrast, for a devout Catholic to say,"You can't do this and be a good Catholic." Note: Non-materialist atheism (Buddhism as a case in point) has a backstop in that karma prevents people from escaping the consequences of their actions. In some life or other, the books get balanced. We consider only materialist atheism here. *They do in the province in which UD News blogs from the public librarymobile stationed in the parking lot of the Lake of Ashes Church of God, up the Ganaraska, just within transmission range.News_{August 1, 2011
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ok, I watched Braveheart. I thought that movie settled once and for all the no blue scotsman issue.Mung_{August 1, 2011
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"The dictum that immoral people tend to be atheists veers very close to the True Scotsman fallacy ..." Then again, most instances of trotting out the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" are themselves fallacious. I call it the "No True Scotsman Fallacy Fallacy".Ilion_{August 1, 2011
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The post was not about what people do. It was about our rationalizations for what we do. Atheism has no rational basis for ethics. Many atheists realize this and accept it.tragic mishap_{August 1, 2011
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I think you have half of a good point, there, Denyse! It's possible that acquiring religion that says that you will have to answer in the afterlife for all the cats you kicked may stop some people kicking cats. I'm not sure the evidence suggests it very strongly, though. After all, for centuries Europe was dominated by a religious belief that taught exactly that. And people still committed terrible crimes. And I guess we don't need to mention the abuse of those in their care by Catholic priests and nuns? But let's suppose you mean that True Christians are less likely to kick cats. Well, the parallel, I'd say, is that True Atheists don't kick cats either. By which I mean, of those I have met who don't simply say "oh, I'm not religious, I don't believe in God" - and then go off and do, or do not kick cats, but rather say: "actually, I think this religious thing is really wrong. We shouldn't be deriving our morality from an arbitrarily set of scriptures of dubious divine provenance, we should be figuring it out from first principles and putting it on a footing where all can agree" - those True Atheists, I submit, are no more likely to kick a cat than you are. Although they may well be more likely to support causes like legalising assisted suicide, and choice in the matter of abortion. But that's ethics, not morality.Elizabeth Liddle_{August 1, 2011
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Do I understand this post correctly? It seems to me that O'Leary, who is forever criticizing natural selection, has just decided that the immorality of atheists can be explained by natural selection. There's one problem, though. No evidence has been provided. In the absence of evidence, I am inclined to be skeptical of the thesis that atheists are statistically less moral than theists.Neil Rickert_{August 1, 2011
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The dictum that immoral people tend to be atheists veers very close to the True Scotsman fallacy - why, if they did something considered immoral within their cultural context, then they may SAY they aren't atheists, but they must be anyway! Otherwise, how could we possibly explain all the studies indicating that atheists are WAY underrepresented in prisons. Must be bad self-reporting, right? I guess we can use cat-kicking as our yardstick. Whoever does it can't be a believer, whatever they say. Whoever does NOT do it must believe, even if they don't realize it!David W. Gibson_{August 1, 2011
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That is, the guy who kicks cats anyway, and fears divine retribution, may resolve his problem by deciding that there is no God and therefore no divine Maybe he just decides his God doesn't like cats. Or maybe he is a hyper Calvinist and believes he has been preordained to heaven or hell so what the heck.There seems to be a lot of ways to believe in God and do not nice things. Then he goes back to kicking cats in peace. Other atheists don’t like him but what can they do? You really believe this? In don't know about in the great white north but I know what an atheist cat lover in Texas might do.velikovskys_{August 1, 2011
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An atheist would be amoral, not immoral.William J. Murray_{August 1, 2011
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To the degree one is "moral" depends on what morality you use as a criterion. Islamic morality is different than Hindu morality. Both are different than Christian morality. Within Christiandom there are variant moralities. Etc. Most atheists I know are decent, law-abiding citizens. In fact, some of my best friends are atheists.mike1962_{August 1, 2011
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Denyse, Nice way of putting it. It all goes back to two issues we've discussed recently: 1) With atheism there is no derivative for ought. One can derive an ought, which is why many atheists are moral, but they don't derive the ought from atheism. i.e., there is nothing in atheism itself that says one ought to do one thing or another. They must look elsewhere. Some atheists prefer the morality that comes from theism, or they look into other disciplines. An example is Sam Harris's mysticism. 2) The atheist who chooses to be immoral and does not get caught, has nothing stopping him/her from being immoral. Some have pointed to Hitler as a theist. Well the problem there is that Hitler's idea of theism is that he himself made the rules for others to follow; including his god. With theism there is a derivative for an ought in the character of God, and there is no escape for immoral behavior, even if in this lifetime one does not get caught. Also, with the immoral atheist there is a given motivation to avoid evidences for the existence of God.CannuckianYankee_{August 1, 2011
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OT: Hey this neat little video has Jay Richards in it talking about the 'Privileged Planet" , at about the 5 minute mark: Wonder of Creation: Soil: The Foundation of Life, Part I http://www.dod.org/Products/DOD2106.aspxbornagain77_{August 1, 2011
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