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Durston and Craig on an infinite temporal past . . .

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In recent days, the issue of an infinite temporal past as a step by step causal succession has come up at UD. For, it seems the evolutionary materialist faces the unwelcome choice of a cosmos from a true nothing — non-being or else an actually completed infinite past succession of finite causal steps.

Durston:

>>To  avoid  the  theological  and  philosophical  implications  of  a  beginning  for the  universe,  some  naturalists  such  as  Sean  Carroll  suggest  that  all  we  need  to  do  is  build  a  successful  mathematical  model  of  the  universe  where  time  t runs  from  minus  infinity  to  positive  infinity. Although  there  is  no  problem  in  having  t run  from  minus  infinity  to  plus  infinity with  a  mathematical  model,  the real past  history  of  the  universe  cannot  be  a  completed  infinity  of  seconds  that  elapsed,  one  second  at  a  time. There  are at  least  two  problems.  First,  an  infinite  real  past  requires  a  completed  infinity, which  is  a  single  object and  does  not  describe  how  history  actually  unfolds.  Second,  it  is  impossible  to  count  down  from  negative  infinity  without  encountering the  problem  of  a  potential infinity  that  never  actually  reaches  infinity. For  the  real  world,  therefore,  there  must  be  a  first  event  that  occurred  a  finite  amount  of  time  ago  in  the  past . . . [More] >>

Craig:

>Strictly speaking, I wouldn’t say, as you put it, that a “beginningless causal chain would be (or form) an actually infinite set.” Sets, if they exist, are abstract objects and so should not be identified with the series of events in time. Using what I would regard as the useful fiction of a set, I suppose we could say that the set of past events is an infinite set if the series of past events is beginningless. But I prefer simply to say that if the temporal series of events is beginningless, then the number of past events is infinite or that there has occurred an infinite number of past events . . . .

It might be said that at least there have been past events, and so they can be numbered. But by the same token there will be future events, so why can they not be numbered? Accordingly, one might be tempted to say that in an endless future there will be an actually infinite number of events, just as in a beginningless past there have been an actually infinite number of events. But in a sense that assertion is false; for there never will be an actually infinite number of events, since it is impossible to count to infinity. The only sense in which there will be an infinite number of events is that the series of events will go toward infinity as a limit.

But that is the concept of a potential infinite, not an actual infinite. Here the objectivity of temporal becoming makes itself felt. For as a result of the arrow of time, the series of events later than any arbitrarily selected past event is properly to be regarded as potentially infinite, that is to say, finite but indefinitely increasing toward infinity as a limit. The situation, significantly, is not symmetrical: as we have seen, the series of events earlier than any arbitrarily selected future event cannot properly be regarded as potentially infinite. So when we say that the number of past events is infinite, we mean that prior to today ℵ0 events have elapsed. But when we say that the number of future events is infinite, we do not mean that ℵ0 events will elapse, for that is false. [More]>>

Food for further thought. END

PS: As issues on numbers etc have become a major focus for discussion, HT DS here is a presentation of the overview:

unity

Where also, this continuum result is useful:

unified_continuum

PPS: As a blue vs pink punched paper tape example is used below, cf the real world machines

Punched paper Tape, as used in older computers and numerically controlled machine tools (Courtesy Wiki & Siemens)
Punched paper Tape, as used in older computers and numerically controlled machine tools (Courtesy Wiki & Siemens)

and the abstraction for mathematical operations:

punchtapes_1-1

Note as well a Turing Machine physical model:

Turing_Machine_Model_Davey_2012

and its abstracted operational form for Mathematical analysis:

turing_machine

F/N: HT BA77, let us try to embed a video: XXXX nope, fails XXXX so instead let us instead link the vid page.

Comments
Well, I can tell you it has exhausted me! ;-)daveS
January 31, 2016
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daveS: ...which we have discussed exhaustively with no progress. Actually, that never happened.Mung
January 31, 2016
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Dave @3 That is why I always bring in the Biblical concepts of time found in God. To me that is the only solution and end of the argument. The old "If something exists now, then something must have always existed." axiom. I cannot believe I have had people tell me that it is a false statement.jimmontg
January 31, 2016
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KF, I think Craig and I are in agreement, at least regarding a "beginningless" or infinite past. For example:
So when we say that the number of past events is infinite, we mean that prior to today ℵ0 events have elapsed.
Durston, however, makes the erroneous assumption that an infinite past implies counting down from infinity to 0, which we have discussed exhaustively with no progress.daveS
January 31, 2016
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Only God has an infinite past if there are even any words to explain where God is, as where He is(in Himself) must be timeless and is not subject to time until He took on human form and only in that sense can it be said God is subject to time because He took time into Himself. We have no linguistics or true comprehension of how this can be, the Kenosis. The emptying of his Deity to become a man. One only has to have faith that the Great I AM is a reality and He is visible in Jesus of Nazareth. Part of God's name He gave Moses "I AM THAT I AM" is part and parcel of Moses' description of God as "From Everlasting to Everlasting Thou art God." We simply cannot comprehend this, it is beyond any temporal creature even Angels. This is a part of the ontological argument for God that Anselm spoke about in his God as the greatest conceivable Being argument I believe. I am of the opinion that this whole subject and the fact that we can even conceive of a God from Everlasting and speak about Him in any meaningful way shows that we are no mere end product of materialist descent. We came from an Eternal God who in some way imprinted His Image on us. The Imago Dei.jimmontg
January 31, 2016
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Durston and Craig on a claimed infinite actual past.kairosfocus
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