L&FP, 60: Illustrating an all too common atheistical attitude

_{kairosfocus

September 30, 2022

Atheism, Logic and Reason, rhetoric}

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The below is taken from a typical Internet Atheist trollish rhetorical stunt, illustrating all too familiar patterns of fallacious reasoning that are here seen in an attempt to bully and stereotype Christians as ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For first level responses see here [Jesus], here [worldviews], here [evil Christians].

This sort of polarising snide stunt is what we need to recognise as a real problem (and no, turnabout projection is not an acceptable response), acknowledging that it is unacceptable bigotry and intellectual irresponsibility, and then set such aside, there are fate of civilisation issues on the table:

Now, let us ponder:

Where we do not need to go. END

U/D, Oct 1, on the real political spectrum by way of the Overton Window and BATNA concept:

Comments

SG “And has this led to the legalization or justification of pedophilia? If not, I declare a red herring.” Do you think a 24 year old is a sex offender if they engage in oral, anal or vaginal penil sex with a 14 year old? Vividvividbleau_{October 2, 2022
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VL, unfortunately, it does not start or end with such talking point parrotting. They are drawing on the likes of the feted Dawkins. KFkairosfocus_{October 1, 2022
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SG, first, you project apocalypticism to belittle and dismiss a serious concern, I am not arguing the end is nigh but that lawless oligarchy is . . . on drearily repeated history . . . the natural state of government. A pattern we must learn from and nip in the bud to preserve lawful community. That is, lawless oligarchy means that we have a declared or implied elite who hold unaccountable power and impose their will as they please, leading to disorder and chaos. This is why lawfulness is a critical threshold. Where, this does not mean, law is whatever those who control the legal presses issue under colour and ceremony -- what legal positivism invites, BTW -- but rather that law, to be legitimate, is bound by canons of the civil peace of justice. That is, due balance of genuine rights, freedoms and duties, where, to justly claim a right one must manifestly be in the right. So, there can be no duty to tolerate say looting [theft under cover of riot or disorder] or to impose the demand that others habitually lie to accord one a privilege. That held for Caesar is Lord and it holds for one trying to impose that he should be recognised as a woman to dominate races for women and win false victories, etc. It also holds for the imposed pretence that a man can "marry" another man or the like; which arbitrarily seizes recognition of lifelong bond to form a family through marital procreative, conjugal union to something that is of contrary character. Such cases are lawless imposition of privilege under false colour of rights, and exhibit the spirit of lawless privilege. Likewise, you spoke of what is in your view not tolerated. But among your examples you gave cases of lawless privileges imposed by power and abuse of colour of law. Likewise, the implication is, principled objection is to be stereotyped, marginalised and stigmatised as hate. Which then leads to persecution of principled objection on sound conscience. Gross violation of the civil peace of justice. Moreover, you invidiously associate -- by way of guilt by association list -- that such principled, sound conscience objections are morally equivalent to wife beating. (Pretending, too, that a battering husband or man was formerly deemed acceptable. In fact, such a man often faced the wrath and often retaliatory defensive action by not only male relatives but any gentleman within earshot. Striking a woman was a serious breach of the gentlemanly code. Unhand her, you wretch was not merely a literary device. You set up and knocked over a toxic strawman.) We are seeing a familiar pattern here, i/l/o the attitude exposed in the OP, just, less crudely expressed. As for the mass slaughter of our living posterity in utero, such demonstrably has mounted up to 800+ millions and counting at a further million per week since the early 70's. The worst holocaust in history, a mass slaughter of the inconvenient innocent. Where, your onward pretence that the particular case of demanding and carrying out late pregnancy killings is vanishingly rare . . . in fact, it occurs in significant numbers . . . is little more than a disguised admission of indefensibility. Another lawless privilege under colour of law rears its head. That is a disgrace, and should cease. Echoing the White Rose Martyrs, guilty, guilty, guilty are we. Going further, I gave key historical examples of the march of folly: Athenian Democracy's Sicilian invasion, Plato's Parable of the Ship of State in direct echo, Ac 27 as a further echo penned by Luke, the Reichstag fire incident and Nazi seizure of lawless power by way of projecting blame to a targetted other [First, they came for the Communists and Socialists . . . ], what happened in my native land in 1976 with an election held under cover of false allegations of coup plot . These are not made up fantasies, they are cases of history written in the language of pain, loss, tears and blood. Cases that are in the main so central to the story of our civilisation that they should be a key part of the common fund of knowledge. (I do not claim centrality for 1976, only being all too typical.) That they are not tells us volumes, including that there are interests that do not wish for us to have this pattern as a commonplace reference and warning flag. Which is instantly a warning flag on a key vulnerability. So, your strawman tactic fails. It is high time that we ponder what erosion of the BATNA of lawfulness naturally leads to. (See the update to the OP.) For, the lessons of sound history were written in blood, pain and tears; those who dismiss, forget or neglect them doom themselves to pay in the same coin over and over again. KFkairosfocus_{October 1, 2022
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Sir Giles I never said it was a recent phenomenon nor was it implied. And it’s a true statement there are consequences for actions Saying that there’s consequences for actions doesn’t make the consequences just, that’s the problem. The consequences are over reactions with no real basis other than someone’s feelings were hurt, and now you wish the punish them. It is like I said in my previous statement, there are people that believe we are going in the right direction that are incapable of seeing that the direction they are going in is just the other extreme Your previous commentary shows me that you’re one of those people and I’m sorry for thatAaronS1978_{October 1, 2022
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VB: The mutilation and castration of children.
I’m against this.
Deprives women of privacy and safety. Men who identify as women will be allowed access to women’s bathrooms,
They have been doing this for decades without a single incident of a woman being harmed.
It contradicts state laws in thirteen states that protect students and prevent male athletes from competing in women’s sports.
Which is why I mentioned that limitations on changes might be necessary. This seems like an obvious one.
One study revealed that 94% of senior female executives played competitive sports. By allowing males to compete in women’s sports, it doesn’t just impact their scholarships, but their opportunity to get on the playing field in the first place. This will hurt women in the long run.
Again, this may be a reasonable restriction on transgendered rights. But, I come from a country where nobody obtains sports scholarships to attend university. I have not heard about this 94% stat. And I haven’t heard that the US has a higher proportion of top executives that are female. But I admit that I could be incorrect.
The killing of a baby up to the moment of birth. Want more?
Just stats. Do you have stats on the rates of abortion in late stages, and the circumstances for them? I live in Canada, one of the only countries with no legal restrictions on abortion, and it is government funded. In spite of this, abortions almost never occur past 20 weeks. But I don’t think we want to get into an abortion debate here.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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VB: Have to disagree with you on this one have you not heard the redefinition of pedophilia to be “Minor Attracted Persons ” (MAPS)
And has this led to the legalization or justification of pedophilia? If not, I declare a red herring.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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SG “Do you have one or two specific examples of backward steps that are worthwhile discussing?” The mutilation and castration of children. The affirmation that a man can be a woman “For fifty years, Title IX has been enforced using the self-evident definition of “sex” –– a person’s status as male or female based on immutable biological traits. The new rule by Biden’s Department of Education has redefine “sex” as used in Title IX to include “sex stereotypes, sex-related characteristics (including intersex traits), pregnancy or related conditions, sexual orientation, and gender identity.” The consequences of such a rule change is monumental: Deprives women of privacy and safety. Men who identify as women will be allowed access to women’s bathrooms, locker rooms, dorms, overnight accommodation, sports, or any other sex-segregated activity at educational instutions that receive federal financial aid. It contradicts state laws in thirteen states that protect students and prevent male athletes from competing in women’s sports. States like Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, South Dakota, and Texas have all passed legislation that protects women's sports. The Biden administration will cost taxpayers millions of dollars in court costs. Negatively impacts educational and career opportunities for women. One study revealed that 94% of senior female executives played competitive sports. By allowing males to compete in women’s sports, it doesn’t just impact their scholarships, but their opportunity to get on the playing field in the first place. This will hurt women in the long run. Distorts justice and undermines due process protections for the accused. The guilty should be punished, but justice requires a fair process. Biden’s rule will strip those accused of sexual assault or harassment of their right to be represented by counsel, to introduce evidence, or to cross-examine witnesses during the adjudication of sexual assault and sexual harassment hearings on school campuses. Harms childhood development by redefining sex and gender. The worst impacts of this rule change go beyond sports and trophies. Indoctrinating children in their most formative years with the Left’s radical gender-ideology will cause irreparable harm. Up to 98% of children who struggle with their sex as a boy or girl come to accept their sex by adulthood. Our boys and girls need to be nurtured and educated, not taught to question fundamental facts of their biology. Particularly in the realm of women’s sports, far-Left activists claim that men can compete fairly with women given the proper hormone suppression therapy. This suggestion is wrong.”. The killing of a baby up to the moment of birth. Want more? Vividvividbleau_{October 1, 2022
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KF writes, "Folks, isn’t it interesting that no one can defend the attitude exposed in the OP, that tells us something." That's right, the attitude in the OP is lousy, and not defensible. Many of the points he makes could be couched in more serious terms and be part of serious discussions: we've had some of them here. But if we had someone here trying to make their points with the attitude that guy had, we wouldn't take them seriously and ignore them.Viola Lee_{October 1, 2022
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KF re 12 Well said. Vividvividbleau_{October 1, 2022
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“Covering up pedophilia is becoming less prevalent. “ Have to disagree with you on this one have you not heard the redefinition of pedophilia to be “Minor Attracted Persons ” (MAPS) Vividvividbleau_{October 1, 2022
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Folks, isn't it interesting that no one can defend the attitude exposed in the OP, that tells us something. And yet, much of the above is distractive, off on tangents and riddled with much the same fallacies, including question begging. I find it further interesting that there is side stepping of key lessons from history. And more. KFkairosfocus_{October 1, 2022
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Relatd: So, when it was no longer legal to hit your wife at 2:45 PM in the past, all men just started watching sports and drinking beer instead? There are zero battered wives or shelters for battered women today? And just because ‘it’s no longer swept under the rug,’ are there still women who will say nothing about what happened to them?
The difference is that battered women now have a possible recourse. In your beloved “golden days” women had no choice but to put up with it.
In the 1960s, some idiot named Dr. Spock tried to tell parents not to spank their kids. Me and all my friends got spanked. Spanked for a reason and we all knew what the reason was. No harm done.
And my parents never spanked any of us, and we never spanked any of our kids. If the same outcome can be achieved by non-violence, why condone violence?
Teen pregnancy is declining? After 2007, the amount of teenagers began declining.
Obviously the concept of “rates” eludes you.
There has been great societal decline over the last 40 years. I saw it all happen in real time.
I have also lived through the same 40+ years and I have seen great societal improvement. I have itemized the improvements. Your turn.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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SG at 27, It was illegal to use profanity in public like that. And it should still be illegal today. I saw George Carlin in the 1970s. I thought he was clever and witty. Later, he turned into this profanity spewing, mentally disturbed person who also had a few bad things to say about God. Sad.relatd_{October 1, 2022
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AS1978 at 25, "We" have done nothing. Comedy no longer exists. I saw comedy as making jokes everyone could laugh at. Today, comedy consists of lectures composed by Leftists that so-called comedians repeat. They call people names, they accuse them. That's not telling jokes.relatd_{October 1, 2022
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SG at 21, I've seen all of these claims of improvements before. So, when it was no longer legal to hit your wife at 2:45 PM in the past, all men just started watching sports and drinking beer instead? There are zero battered wives or shelters for battered women today? And just because 'it's no longer swept under the rug,' are there still women who will say nothing about what happened to them? In the 1960s, some idiot named Dr. Spock tried to tell parents not to spank their kids. Me and all my friends got spanked. Spanked for a reason and we all knew what the reason was. No harm done. Teen pregnancy is declining? After 2007, the amount of teenagers began declining. Abortion rates are declining? A false positive that does not take into account the fact that over half of abortions are not performed at clinics but in private settings with pills. People are free to marry someone of the same sex. There is no equivalency. A man + woman does not equal a man + man or woman + woman. From a purely biological standpoint, men and women were designed for each other. There has been great societal decline over the last 40 years. I saw it all happen in real time.relatd_{October 1, 2022
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AaronS1978: The incident with Dave Chapelle the fact that comedy can’t be comedy anymore.
Comedians suffering consequences for what they say is nothing new. Lenny Bruce, Andrew Dice Clay, George Carlin, and many more ran afoul of the language and thought police. I don’t like it but to suggest that this is a recent phenomenon is simply not true.
We’ve gone way too much into the extreme of everything is offensive to the point that now freedom of speech has been jeopardize by the way the topic of freedom of speech has been another problem.
Freedom of speech is not about a comedian, or anyone else, having the right to say whatever they want without consequences. It is about being able to say whatever you would like without government imposed consequences. If a comedian says or does something that offends enough people, they will suffer consequences because people don’t come to their shows and venues won’t book them. If they slander someone, freedom of speech does not protect them from civil law suits.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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One of my personal favorite examples of FOS issues is Facebook. I will often post satire that is very obviously satire, and it will get fact checked, as mostly false and blocked. However, it’s satire. It’s not true to begin with. It’s a joke. One of the jokes is I live in Arizona, and we want beaches very desperately in our little state I posted that Arizonans were getting in trouble for crowding the beaches of Arizona during Covid It was the famous picture of people crowding the beaches of Italy It was flagged and blocked because I was spreading false information about Covid and quarantines, and the disclaimer was placed saying it was dangerous to be in crowds during quarantine Another piece of satire that got blocked for me because of Covid was one making fun of Donald Trump in the comments of bleaching your lungs It was a picture of a doctor, administering a enema using an IV drip of bleach The doctor telling the person with the naked rear end, that it is time to administer your Covid treatment, Mr. President It was simply a joke, but it was blocked because I was spreading false information about Covid “treatments”, and that bleach was not a proper treatment for Covid. I have many more examples of this level of nonsense. I even tested Facebook directly and started badmouthing Trump and Biden at the same time and I could tell you I only ever got blocked on Biden bad mouthingAaronS1978_{October 1, 2022
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@ 23 Why yes I do The incident with Dave Chapelle the fact that comedy can’t be comedy anymore. We’ve gone way too much into the extreme of everything is offensive to the point that now freedom of speech has been jeopardize by the way the topic of freedom of speech has been another problem. I have been directly effected by this on multiple occasions, and it’s only been within the last four years that it has been a major issue, and it has been a intolerance towards a particular political spectrum. The handling of Covid, I’m not even gonna go into details with that, but that was a disaster and that was a huge step backwards for a lot of different reasons Last two presidents of the United States have been absolute clowns. Worst presidents in history. Our economy and political division shows this and its been the worst it’s been in years, which is a huge step back. But I can actually go on for days, I feel that our country is going into another extreme while the people that think we’re in the right direction are part of that extreme and don’t seem capable of seeing that they are going to far. Again, a lot of this is politically charged and I’m not exactly fond of discussing itAaronS1978_{October 1, 2022
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Discrimination and persecution due to a person’s race, religion, gender, sexual preference, etc. is no longer tolerated.
But yet the schools are full of teachings that the US is the most racist society in the world. The real question "Is the US the least racist country in the history of the world?" Or just the opposite. As attempts to portray it as inherently racist are made continually by the left. I just got through reading a newsletter by a religious cleric who said
They are more adamant in their opinions that nearly all people can be skillfully deceived. Are most people easily fooled?
This website is a great example of how people refuse to admit the obvious. All this nonsense about race escalated after the great failure of Occupy Wall Street.jerry_{October 1, 2022
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@22 As with any change, there are sometimes unintended consequences. That doesn’t always justify not making the change, but it may justify some mitigating actions or limitations on the change. Do you have one or two specific examples of backward steps that are worthwhile discussing? Unfortunately KF’s “End Is Nigh” generality is not conducive to constructive discussion.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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@ 21 Although some of the things that you mention, I do agree with I really do feel that the last four years we have taken quite a few steps back And a correction to my analogy “Morris code is not code. It’s signals composed of sound waves.“ That’s more accurateAaronS1978_{October 1, 2022
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Spousal abuse is no longer swept under the rug. Physically disciplining a child is becoming less acceptable. Covering up pedophilia is becoming less prevalent. Childhood bullying is declining. Both teen pregnancy and abortion rates are declining. Sexual harassment in the workplace is no longer tolerated. People are free to marry who they love. Discrimination and persecution due to a person’s race, religion, gender, sexual preference, etc. is no longer tolerated. You are free to question a religion’s rules without fear of blasphemy laws. Society continues to have huge challenges but most meaningful indicators point to a general improvement over the last several decades.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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Well this fits two commentators here. One perfectly. I wouldn’t say AF. Because most of his trolling consists of arguments like this “Morse code is not code it sound waves” this is just analogous to the DNA/code argument. But my question is, is the purpose of this post to help them try to reflect on themselves to see that maybe their arguments aren’t really solid and they’re just annoying because in most cases, it really is just a troll? The sad part is a lot of the atheists on the site fit this stereotype, very similar to the ones that I’ve encountered in my life One of them of them mocked my belief all the time despite me not bringing up with him but once when he asked. He was a bully about it for years there after. One time when Christmas was around the corner and he came into the store just to complain about magic man day. Never brought it with him in the first place he just didn’t it because he got kicks out of mocking my belief. He would ask “How can you be so smart but be sooooo stupid to believe in god? You must be a cradle catholic.” he went on to be a biology teacher at GCU a Christian only college. He lied on his application to get the job…….. Another was my lovely neighbor that liked shouting at his friends that when you die there will be no heaven and angels waiting up there to suck your d!ck. I conveniently heard this right after I was done debating a coworker on OOL who was also a raging atheist. I was dragged into their argument when they asked me about cellular life, both of them new I was in college talking classes in microbiology and figured I’d could settle their debate. Another was my lovely public debates partner. In his final debate he had surprised everyone with the topic, as it was never discussed, and religion was never brought up in the class. He wanted to debated if Jesus ever existed but that didn’t pan out so he went to God and Santa Claus were one in the same. Literally his whole debate consisted of evolution is real, god is not “just think about it” and you are all dumb if you think otherwise “just think about it” . He got a D and he was not expecting pushback from me, thinking I was an atheist too given my demeanor His whole debate was just mocking Christianity and comparing god to Santa Claus with very few exceptions, every atheist I’ve encountered fits these stereotypes, they are generally aggressive and are similar to bullies while claiming that they are being bullied, I’ve never bullied an atheist. I’ve never sought them out, and I wish to leave them alone, because I just didn’t care about what they believe, it wasn’t until repeat incidences like the few above that I mentioned, that I started seeking out places like this, and other places to defend my faith/ideals. I would’ve literally never cared about evolution, or even thought that it infringed on God’s existence, and my belief in God, if I had never been swung at first by raging atheist wield the sword of evolution trying to mock me for my beliefs and rid the world of that nonexistent genocidal psychopathic bully, known as GodAaronS1978_{October 1, 2022
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SG, if we do not hold the line, that will predictably come crashing down. And that's before we get to the issue of licence pretending to be lawful liberty. Actually, they are linked. KF PS, I add to the OP shortly. Lawless oligarchy is the natural state of power in community.kairosfocus_{October 1, 2022
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In the western world, more people have more freedom and more opportunities than any time in the past. I am so happy to have been born when and where I was.Sir Giles_{October 1, 2022
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F/N 4: The Reichstag fire and Hitler's seizure of power: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-reichstag-fire
On February 27, 1933, the German parliament (Reichstag) building burned down. The Nazi leadership and its coalition partners used the fire to claim that Communists were planning a violent uprising. They claimed that emergency legislation was needed to prevent this. The resulting act, commonly known as the Reichstag Fire Decree, abolished a number of constitutional protections and paved the way for Nazi dictatorship . . . . On February 27, 1933, the German parliament (Reichstag) building burned down due to arson. The Nazi leadership and its German Nationalist coalition partners exploited the fire to persuade President Paul von Hindenburg that Communists were planning a violent uprising to derail Germany’s "national renewal." They claimed that emergency legislation was needed to prevent this. Commonly known as the Reichstag Fire Decree, the resulting act “For the Protection of the People and State” abolished a number of constitutional protections and paved the way for Nazi dictatorship. Using emergency constitutional powers, Adolf Hitler’s cabinet had issued a Decree for the Protection of the German People on February 4, 1933. This decree placed constraints on the press and authorized the police to ban political meetings and marches, effectively hindering electoral campaigning. A temporary measure, it was followed by a more dramatic and permanent suspension of civil rights following the February 27 burning of the parliament building. Though the origins of the fire are still unclear, in a propaganda maneuver, the coalition government (Nazis and the German Nationalist People's Party) blamed the Communists. They exploited the Reichstag fire to secure President von Hindenburg’s approval for an emergency decree, the decree "For the Protection of the People and State" of February 28, one day after the burning of the Reichstag. Popularly known as the Reichstag Fire Decree, the regulations suspended the right to assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and other constitutional protections, including all restraints on police investigations. Justified on the false premise that the Communists were planning an uprising to overthrow the state, the Reichstag Fire Decree permitted the regime to arrest and incarcerate political opponents without specific charge, dissolve political organizations, and to suppress publications. It also gave the central government the authority to overrule state and local laws and overthrow state and local governments . . . . Following the Reichstag fire on February 27, 1933, the Nazi leadership and its Nationalist coalition partners exploited the fire to pass emergency legislation that abolished a number of constitutional protections and paved the way for Nazi dictatorship.
Wikipedia adds:
After the November 1932 German federal election, the Nazi Party had a plurality, not a majority; the communists posted gains.[7] Adolf Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor and head of the coalition government on 30 January 1933.[8] As chancellor, Hitler asked President Paul von Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag and call for a new parliamentary election. The date set for the elections was 5 March 1933.[9] Hitler hoped to abolish democracy in a quasi-legal fashion, by passing the Enabling Act. The Enabling Act was a special law that gave the Chancellor the power to pass laws by decree, without the involvement of the Reichstag. These special powers would remain in effect for four years, after which time they were eligible to be renewed. Under the Weimar Constitution, the President could rule by decree in times of emergency using Article 48.[10] During the election campaign, the Nazis alleged that Germany was on the verge of a communist revolution and that the only way to stop the communists was to put the Nazis securely in power. The message of the campaign was simple: increase the number of Nazi seats.[11] . . . . The day after the fire, at Hitler's request, President Hindenburg signed the Reichstag Fire Decree into law by using Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. The Reichstag Fire Decree suspended most civil liberties in Germany, including habeas corpus, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the right of free association and public assembly, and the secrecy of the post and telephone.[18] These rights were not reinstated during Nazi reign. The decree was used by the Nazis to ban publications not considered "friendly" to the Nazi cause. Despite the fact that Marinus van der Lubbe claimed to have acted alone in the Reichstag fire, Hitler, after having obtained his emergency powers, announced that it was the start of a wider communist effort to take over Germany. Nazi Party newspapers then published this fabricated "news".[18] This sent the German population into a panic and isolated the communists further among the civilians; additionally, thousands of communists were imprisoned in the days following the fire (including leaders of the Communist Party of Germany) on the charge that the Party was preparing to stage a putsch. Speaking to Rudolph Diels about communists during the Reichstag fire, Hitler said "These sub-humans do not understand how the people stand at our side. In their mouse-holes, out of which they now want to come, of course they hear nothing of the cheering of the masses."[19] With communist electoral participation also suppressed (the communists previously polled 17% of the vote), the Nazis were able to increase their share of the vote in the 5 March 1933 Reichstag elections from 33% to 44%.[20] This gave the Nazis and their allies, the German National People's Party (who won 8% of the vote), a majority of 52% in the Reichstag.[20] While the Nazis emerged with a majority, they fell short of their goal, which was to win 50–55% of the vote that year.[20] The Nazis thought that this would make it difficult to achieve their next goal, passage of the Enabling Act giving Hitler the right to rule by decree, which required a two-thirds majority.[20] However, several important factors weighed in the Nazis' favour, mainly the continued suppression of the Communist Party and the Nazis' ability to capitalize on national security concerns. Moreover, some deputies of the Social Democratic Party (the only party that would vote against the Enabling Act) were prevented from taking their seats in the Reichstag, due to arrests and intimidation by the Nazi SA. As a result, the Social Democratic Party would be under-represented in the final vote tally. The Enabling Act passed easily on 23 March 1933, with the support of the right-wing German National People's Party, the Centre Party, and several fragmented middle-class parties. The measure went into force on 24 March, effectively making Hitler dictator of Germany.[21] The Kroll Opera House, sitting across the Königsplatz from the burned-out Reichstag building, functioned as the Reichstag's venue for the remaining 12 years of the Third Reich's existence.[22]
KFkairosfocus_{September 30, 2022
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F/N3: Even Wikipedia warns:
The Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC) was an ancient Greek war fought between Athens and Sparta and their respective allies for the hegemony of the Greek world. The war remained undecided for a long time until the decisive intervention of the Persian Empire in support of Sparta. Led by Lysander, the Spartan fleet built with Persian subsidies finally defeated Athens and started a period of Spartan hegemony over Greece. Historians have traditionally divided the war into three phases. The first phase (431–421 BC) was named the Ten Years War, or the Archidamian War, after the Spartan king Archidamus II, who launched several invasions of Attica with the full hoplite army of the Peloponnesian League, the alliance network dominated by Sparta. However, the Long Walls of Athens rendered this strategy ineffective, while the superior navy of the Delian League (Athens' alliance) raided the Peloponnesian coast to trigger rebellions within Sparta. The precarious Peace of Nicias was signed in 421 BC and lasted until 413 BC. Several proxy battles took place during this period, notably the battle of Mantinea in 418 BC, won by Sparta against an ad-hoc alliance of Elis, Mantinea (both former Spartan allies), Argos and Athens. The main event was nevertheless the Sicilian Expedition between 415 and 413 BC, during which Athens lost almost all its navy in the attempted capture of Syracuse, an ally in Sparta. The Sicilian disaster prompted the third phase of the war (413–404 BC), named the Decelean War, or the Ionian War, when the Persian Empire supported Sparta in order to recover the suzerainty of the Greek cities of Asia Minor, incorporated into the Delian League at the end of the Persian Wars. With Persian money, Sparta built a massive fleet under the leadership of Lysander, who won a streak of decisive victories in the Aegean Sea, notably at Aegospotamos in 405 BC. Athens capitulated the following year and lost all its empire; Lysander imposed puppet oligarchies on the former members of the Delian League, including Athens, where the regime was known as the Thirty Tyrants. The Peloponnesian War was followed ten years later by the Corinthian War (394–386 BC), which, although it ended inconclusively, helped Athens regain its independence from Sparta. The Peloponnesian War reshaped the ancient Greek world. On the level of international relations, Athens, the strongest city-state in Greece prior to the war's beginning, was reduced to a state of near-complete subjection, while Sparta became established as the leading power of Greece. The economic costs of the war were felt all across Greece; poverty became widespread in the Peloponnese, while Athens was completely devastated, and never regained its pre-war prosperity.[2][3] The war also wrought subtler changes to Greek society; the conflict between democratic Athens and oligarchic Sparta, each of which supported friendly political factions within other states, made war a common occurrence in the Greek world. Ancient Greek warfare, meanwhile, originally a limited and formalized form of conflict, was transformed into an all-out struggle between city-states, complete with atrocities on a large scale. Shattering religious and cultural taboos, devastating vast swathes of countryside, and destroying whole cities, the Peloponnesian War marked the dramatic end to the fifth century BC and the golden age of Greece.[4] . . . . In the 17th year of the war, word came to Athens that one of their distant allies in Sicily was under attack from Syracuse, the main city of Sicily. The people of Syracuse were ethnically Dorian (as were the Spartans), while the Athenians, and their ally in Sicilia, were Ionian. The Athenians felt obliged to help their ally. They also held visions, rallied on by Alcibiades, who ultimately led an expedition, of conquering all of Sicily. Syracuse was not much smaller than Athens, and conquering all of Sicily would bring Athens immense resources. In the final preparations for departure, the hermai (religious statues) of Athens were mutilated by unknown persons, and Alcibiades was charged with religious crimes. Alcibiades demanded that he be put on trial at once, so that he can defend himself before the expedition. However, the Athenians allowed Alcibiades to go on the expedition without being tried (many believed in order to better plot against him). After arriving in Sicily, Alcibiades was recalled to Athens for trial. Fearing that he would be unjustly condemned, Alcibiades defected to Sparta and Nicias was placed in charge of the mission. After his defection, Alcibiades claimed to the Spartans that the Athenians planned to use Sicily as a springboard for the conquest of all of Italy and Carthage, and to use the resources and soldiers from these new conquests to conquer the Peloponnese. The Athenian force consisted of over 100 ships and some 5,000 infantry and light-armored troops. Cavalry was limited to about 30 horses, which proved to be no match for the large and highly trained Syracusan cavalry. Upon landing in Sicily, several cities immediately joined the Athenian cause. But instead of attacking, Nicias procrastinated and the campaigning season of 415 BC ended with Syracuse scarcely damaged. With winter approaching, the Athenians withdrew into their quarters and spent the winter gathering allies. The delay allowed Syracuse to request help from Sparta, who sent their general Gylippus to Sicily with reinforcements. Upon arriving, he raised a force from several Sicilian cities, and went to the relief of Syracuse. He took command of the Syracusan troops, and in a series of battles defeated the Athenian forces, and prevented them from invading the city. Nicias then sent word to Athens asking for reinforcements. Demosthenes was chosen and led another fleet to Sicily, joining his forces with those of Nicias. More battles ensued and again, the Syracusans and their allies defeated the Athenians. Demosthenes argued for a retreat to Athens, but Nicias at first refused. After additional setbacks, Nicias seemed to agree to a retreat until a bad omen, in the form of a lunar eclipse, delayed withdrawal. The delay was costly and forced the Athenians into a major sea battle in the Great Harbor of Syracuse. The Athenians were thoroughly defeated. Nicias and Demosthenes marched their remaining forces inland in search of friendly allies. The Syracusan cavalry rode them down mercilessly, eventually killing or enslaving all who were left of the mighty Athenian fleet.
(There is a lot more to learn about Alcibiades.) This was the equivalent of Hitler's attack on Russia, KFkairosfocus_{September 30, 2022
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F/N2: On the Ship of State:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
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F/N: On Acts 27:
[On Luke's microcosm on the ship of state, Jan 1, 2013:] Entrenched highly ideological orthodoxies — and this includes successful revolutionaries, whether on institutional or community scale — that control resource flows to their benefit and which exert enormous power in institutions and society [I was speaking here about today's evolutionary materialism dominated science], tend to be very resistant to what is new and unsettling to their comfort zones and interests. Where there has been indoctrination and polarisation, we can see this multiplied by the problem of lack of logical thinking ability and sheer lack of awareness of the true state of the balance of warrant on the merits of facts and evidence. The perceived heretic, then is a threat to be fought off, marginalised, discredited and if necessary destroyed. By any and all means, fair or foul. (I find the obsession with suggestions of a threat of religious subversion of [scientific, political, education, media and cultural] institutions long since subverted by radical secularists slightly amusing but quite sad in the end. The key threat is unaccountable, out of control power in the hands of elites prone to corruption, not that this once happened with religious elites. In the past 100 years, we saw major secularist movements and neopagan movements of political messianism that did much the same to horrific cost. And the welfare state of the past generation has not been a whole lot better. [Just ask the ghosts of the dozens of millions who have been aborted for convenience.]) Where is there a solution? Frankly, at this stage, I think things are going to have to crash so badly and some elites are going to have to be so discredited by the associated spreading failure, that media propaganda tactics cannot cover it up anymore. My model for that comes from one of the red-flag sources that will give some of the objectors [to the design theory movement in science] the vapours. Acts 27. What, how dare you cite that, that . . . that . . . textbook for theocratic tyranny by the ignorant, insane, stupid and/or wicked followers of that bronze age misogynistic homophobic genocidal racist war god! (Do you hear how your agit-prop talking points are enmeshing you in the classic trap of believing your own propaganda?) Let’s start with, Paul of Tarsus, c. AD 59, was not in the Bronze Age but was an appellate prisoner in chains on early Imperial era grain ships having a hard time making way from the Levant and Asia Minor to Rome, in the second case ending up in a bay on Crete. What followed is a classic exercise in the follies of manipulated democracy, a case study that will well repay study in our time.
It was late in the sailing season, and the merchant-owner was worried about his ship in an open bay at Fair Havens, given what winter storms can do. The passengers were not too impressed by the nearby settlements as a wintering place. (Sailing stopped in Autumn and opened back up in Spring. [--> EVERYONE knew why, the ships of that day could not bear up the storms of winter, and as time wore on in the fall, sailing became increasingly dangerous]) The key technico, the kubernete — steersman, more or less like a pilot of an airliner — knew where his bread was buttered, and by whom. In the middle was a Centurion of the elite messenger corps. We are at ship’s council, and Paul, in chains, is suggesting that the suggestion to venture our with a favourable wind to try to make it to a more commodious port down-coast was excessively risky not only to boat but life. The financial and technical talking heads and the appeal of comfort allowed him to be easily marginalised and dismissed. Then we saw a gentle south breeze, that would have allowed a reach down the coast. (The technicos probably knew this could be a precursor to a storm, but were not going to cut across the dominant view. [Let's add, how many days would it have taken to simply WALK to Phoenix, 40 mi away by sea? 3 - 4? We can readily see how the implicit, you won't get money back if you "abandon" the voyage and the rosy description of a smooth, low risk afternoon's sail could easily have swayed opinions.]) They sailed out. Bang, an early winter noreaster hit them and sprang the boat’s timbers (why they tried to hold together with ropes [--> called frapping]) so the ship was in a sinking condition from the beginning. Worse, they were heading for sandbars off the coast of today’s Libya. For two weeks all they could do was use a sea anchor to control drift and try to steer vaguely WNW. Forget, eating. That is when Paul stood forth as a good man in a storm, and encouraged them with a vision from God. By this time, hope was to be shipwrecked on a coast. (Turned out, [probably] north coast of Malta [possibly, east end].) While the ship was at risk of being driven aground and set out four anchors by the stern from midnight on, the sailors tried to abandon the passengers on a ruse, spotted by Paul and/or Luke his travelling companion. By this time, the Centurion knew who to take seriously and the ship’s boat was cut away. He then took the decision to save Paul and refused the soldiers’ request to kill the prisoners to prevent escape (for which their lives would have been forfeit). So, they made it to a beach on Malta, having lost the ship in any case AND nearly their own lives.

KFkairosfocus_{September 30, 2022
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RR, kindly see the above. KFkairosfocus_{September 30, 2022
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