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Debating Darwin and Design: A Dialogue Between Two Christians

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A couple of months ago, I agreed to take part in a written debate with a good friend of mine, Francis Smallwood. Francis, like me, is a commited Christian. Unlike me though, he is also a neo-Darwinist. On his blog Musings Of A Scientific Nature he writes on many different scientific issues, although his primary focus is on Darwinism. I encourage UD readers to check his blog out.

As an enthusiastic ID proponent, I obviously think his embrace of Darwinian theory is profoundly mistaken, and equally I think his criticisms of ID are weak. However, he is at least willing to engage in debate with people of opposing view points and is not as dismissive as most Darwinists.

Our idea was to chose several points of contention that are related to the debate between ID and Darwinism. These will include questions such as: Is ID science or creationism? Can we detect design in nature? What is the evidence for neo-Darwinism?, and several others. In turn, we will focus on each particular issue and have an extended back and forth.

We have aimed to keep the discussion civil and measured, making sure we refrain from lapsing into the usual name-calling and vituperation. Though this is intended to be an extended debate over a long period of time, we have only just scratched the surface of the debate. The first issue we have chosen to focus on is the question whether ID is genuine science or merely a form of stealth creationism. So far we have had a couple of exchanges and more will be forthcoming.

I thought some readers here may be interested in this discussion and so will post my responses to Francis on here over time. At the top will be a link to his blog so you can go there and read his responses yourself. Though the discussion so far is fairly elementary, I hope some will find it edifying and we will be sure to get into deeper waters as these issues are opened up and probed further.

We began by writing opening statements to this discussion. You can read Francis’ statement here My statement can be read below:

Debating Darwin and Design

A Dialogue Between Two Christians

Joshua Gidney-Opening Statement

‘Automatically rejecting dissenting views that challenge the conventional wisdom is a dangerous fallacy, for almost every generally accepted view was once deemed eccentric or heretical. Perpetuating the reign of a supposed scientific orthodoxy in this way, whether in a research laboratory or in a court room, is profoundly inimical to the search for truth…’1

Stephen J. Gould

When it comes to the ultimate, vexing questions of origins, life, meaning and purpose, few are as hotly debated as questions about Darwin’s theory of evolution and Intelligent Design theory. For decades there has been much controversy in public and academic circles and although this controversy is most prevalent in America, the heated discussion can be found thriving almost anywhere. Due to the nature of the issues, discussions are often fraught with emotion, ideological baggage, worldview and religious beliefs and so it is often remarkably difficult to get to the truth behind the matters at hand. These questions are so important and attract such passion because they are to do with our own history, nature and origin. As philosopher and mathematician David Berlinski notes ‘There is a wide appreciation of the fact that if biologists are wrong about Darwin, they are wrong about life…’2 They are also important because science is one of the most successful and powerful cultural authorities, and theories firmly held to be true within the scientific community often have a huge influence on how everybody else views the world.

It is true to say that Neo-Darwinism ‘The synthesis of Darwin’s original theory with Mendelian genetics…’3, is zealously affirmed by the majority of those within the scientific community. Biological complexity, they claim, has evolved by natural selection acting upon random/chance genetic mutations, producing descent with modification. Neo-Darwinian theory can be expressed simply in the following way:

RV + NS –> DWM

These are purely non-teleological unguided mechanisms and so it is argued that Neo-Darwinism is sufficient to explain the diversification of all biological life without reference to any creative intelligence. The theory is said to be strongly supported by several different lines of evidence which ‘Taken together…converge to provide a mutually supporting evidential framework.’4, and although the theory has been voluptuously embraced by the majority of the scientific community, it has been rejected with contempt and disdain by many people ever since it was first proposed.

Amongst Darwin dissenters are Creationists who mistakenly oppose it based on their particular literalistic interpretation of the Genesis account of creation. On the other hand many committed atheists attempt to surreptitiously foist a metaphysically naturalistic philosophy onto the theory. Since the majority of the human race is religious in some sense, no wonder it’s opposed and disbelieved by so many! Despite all this it is vital to note that ‘There is an important difference between the biological theory of evolution and the various philosophies that people have tried to derive from it…’5 Neo-Darwinism, if true, would not in any way imply atheism as there are many independent reasons to think that it is false. Also it seems that it is perfectly possible to reconcile scripture with the theory of evolution as Christians are open to a wide variety of interpretations, allowing them to follow the evidence wherever it leads. Science is not in a perpetual conflict with Christianity. The more fundamental question is whether or not Neo-Darwinism is true. I myself do not think so. Being a committed Christian, I used to be a tentative theistic evolutionist but against my will I have recently been persuaded to join another party.

As I have mentioned, the clash between creationism and evolution has a long and turbulent history, but in the last couple of decades the Neo-Darwinian paradigm has been challenged by another voice. This challenge has come from the Intelligent Design movement. They are a small but growing number of scientists and academics from various fields, who believe strongly that Neo-Darwinian theory is inadequate to explain certain physical features within the universe. They also believe that there is positive, scientifically detectable evidence that some form of intelligent agency is involved. Being a born again Darwinian, Richard Dawkins, along with most other evolutionary biologists, affirm that biology is ‘The study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed.’6 The appearance of design being entirely illusory. In contrast, ID theorists believe that ‘…real design exists in nature and is empirically detectable by the methods of science’7 (emphasis added). Philosopher Peter S. Williams succinctly summarizes the core claim of ID theory as claiming that ‘empirical evidence warrants a scientific design inference using reliable design detection criteria.’8

ID advocates claim that to recognise something as having been designed, it needs to exhibit both complexity and specificity. Design theorist William A. Dembski has defended this design detection criteria at length and it is known as “specified complexity”, also referred to as “complex specified information” (CSI). This criterion tells us that ‘Neither complexity without specificity nor specificity without complexity compels us to infer design’9, but a combination of both does. It is important to note that ‘Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence (SETI)’10, and thus design detection is already used in other scientific circles. Once the design detection criteria is applied to particular features in the universe, design theorists argue that intelligent design can be shown in several areas within nature (this is a point that’s often forgotten by many critics). Proposed areas that claim to exhibit signs of intelligent causation are the information rich structures found in DNA, irreducibly complex bio-molecular machines, the Cambrian explosion, the fine-tuning of our solar system and local habitat, and the fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe for the development of carbon based life. Design inferences tend to be more controversial in the area of biology because they suggest that there are certain features that cannot be explained by purely Darwinian processes.

Although the ID movement is growing, it is true to say that the majority of the mainstream scientific community do not accept it. In fact, to say this would be an understatement. There are many people who hold ID theory in such withering contempt, that it probably makes their blood pressure rise to triple digits when they discuss it. Witness chemist Peter Atkins in his remarkably apoplectic review of biochemist Michael Behe’s book Darwin’s Black Box:

‘Dr Behe waves his magic wand, discards the scientific method, and launches into his philosopher’s stone of universal explanation: it was all designed. Presenting this silly, lazy, ignorant, and intellectually abominable view — essentially discarding reason and invoking that first resort of the intellectually challenged (that is, God).’11

Vacuous objurgations such as these are often hurled by many scientists who oppose ID and it often prompts a lapse from the well-ordered decencies of academia. As the controversial movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed revealed, opposition amongst the scientific ‘elite’ is often so vociferous that many people who have expressed support for ID, have been ostracized and ‘expelled’ from academia, several supporters losing their jobs.12 As well as provoking indignation amongst many atheistic scientists, it also frustrates many theistic evolutionists and Creationists. Theistic evolutionist Denis Alexander claims that ‘it fails to meet the most basic criteria of scientific theorising and practice.’13 whilst biologist and Catholic Kenneth Miller, one of ID’s most vehement critics, argues that ‘…design is built upon a stunning lack of curiosity and a remarkable unwillingness to embrace scientific discovery. Design rests ultimately on the claim of ignorance…’14 Critics claim incessantly that ID theory is merely a form of “stealth creationism”, that ‘Not a single paper espousing creationism or intelligent design has ever been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.’15, and that all of the claims made by ID theorists have been refuted or are devoid of any content.

As mentioned, despite all the controversy and often vituperative debate that this topic provokes, these questions remain at once profound, fascinating and important. As a committed Christian, I used to hold the position of theist evolution but have gradually been persuaded that the Neo-Darwinian synthesis is deficient and that the ID theorists are correct. I think that ID is too often misrepresented, misunderstood and its various criticisms are largely without merit. I also affirm that it is a legitimate scientific theory. My good friend Francis is also a committed Christian but holds to a theistic evolutionary view and so on this issue we are in disagreement. Because we are both fascinated with questions such as these, we have decided to initiate a respectful written dialogue, all of which will gradually be published on both our blogs. It should be said that neither of us are scientists or are formally qualified in the areas pertinent to the issues, but we will attempt to responsibly present research and substantial and informed argumentation. We both hope that readers will find the discussion edifying, thought provoking, and helpful.

References

    1. Brief Amici Curiae of Phys., Scientists, and Historians of Sci. in Support of Petitioners, Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals, Inc., at 2–6, 509 U.S. 579 (1993) (No. 92–102).
    2. David Berlinski. The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions. (United states: Basic Books. 2009). p.186.
    3. Graeme Finlay. Stephen Lloyd. Stephen Pattemore. David Swift. Debating Darwin: Two Debates: Is Darwinism True & Does it Matter? (Milton Keynes: Paternoster Press. 2009). p.X.
    4. ibid. p.131.
    5. Dennis Alexander. Robert S. White. Beyond Belief: Science, Faith and Ethical Challenges. (Oxford: Lion Hudson. 2004). p.106.
    6. Richard Dawkins. The Blind Watchmaker. (New York: W.W. Norton & Company. 1986). p. 1.
    7. Marcus R. Ross. Intelligent Design and Young Earth Creationism: Investigating Nested Hierarchies of Philosophy and Belief. (2003) Available at: http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_58668.htm
    8. Peter S. Williams. The Design Inference from Specified Complexity Defended by Scholars Outside the Intelligent Design Movement: A Critical Review. Philosophia Christi (Vol. 9, Issue 2, 2007). Available at: http://epsociety.org/library/articles.asp?pid=54
    9. Williams. The Design Inference from Specified Complexity Defended by Scholars Outside the Intelligent Design Movement: A Critical Review. Op.cit.
    10. Uncommon Descent. ID Defined. Available at: https://uncommondescent.com/id-defined/. (Accessed 25th August 2011).
    11. The Secular Web. 1998. Peter Atkins Review of Darwin’s Black Box. Available at: http: < http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_atkins/behe.html>. (Accessed 25th August 2011).
    12. Cf. Ben Stein’s Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Premise Media/Vivendi Entertainment, 2008).
    13. Denis Alexander. ‘Designs on Science’. Available at: < http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=260&TopicID=2&CategoryID=1>. (Accessed 26th August 2011).
    14. Kenneth Miller. Only a theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul. (Viking Penguin: New York. 2008). p.87
    15. Charles Foster. The Selfless Gene: Living With God and Darwin. (Hodder & Stoughton: London. 2009) p. xiv.
Comments
No, there's 20% that we don't know what it does, and it's very difficult to tell that a given stretch of DNA provides no function. From Pseudogenes and Their Evolution, Encyclopedia of Life Sciences, 2010:
in practice, it is virtually impossible to experimentally establish nonfunctionality; the lack of any observable phenotypic effect upon the deletion of a putative pseudogene does not necessarily mean that the deletion has no phenotypic effect, because the effect may be too subtle to observe. When more and more research groups are coming across cases where a so-called pseudogene is potentially involved in a meaningful biological interaction, primarily in gene regulation (Tam et al., 2008; Watanabe et al., 2008), it becomes increasingly difficult to define pseudogenes.
They're talking about pseudogenes, but I see no reason to suspect it any easier with other types of non-coding DNA. JLAfan2001 wrote:
shouldn’t evolution take credit for correctly predicting the fusion of chromosome 2?
I suppose so, unless someone else has a counter-argument? But the fusion no more proves shared primate descent true than the lack of junk DNA proves it false.JoeCoder
September 5, 2012
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I think kudos is in order to ID for correctly predicting this but there’s 20% that’s still “junk”. Evolutionists can still hold on to that term as proof , can’t they? Also, ID takes credit for this prediction but shouldn’t evolution take credit for correctly predicting the fusion of chromosome 2?JLAfan2001
September 5, 2012
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JoeCoder and Joe, here is a related article:
Scientists debunk 'junk DNA' theory to reveal vast majority of human genes perform a vital function - September 5, 2012 Excerpt: Scientists have once and for all swept away any notion of “junk DNA” by showing that that the vast majority of the human genome does after all have a vital function by regulating the genes that build and maintain the body. Junk DNA was a term coined 40 years ago to describe the part of the genome that does not contain any genes, the individual instructions for making the body’s vital proteins. Now, this vast genetic landscape could hold hidden clues to eradicating human disease, scientists said. Hundreds of researchers from 32 institutes around the world collaborated on the immense effort to decipher the hidden messages within the 98 per cent of the human genome without any genes and was thought, therefore, to have no function. They have concluded in a series of 30 research papers published simultaneously today, in Nature, Science and other journals, that this so-called junk DNA is in fact an elaborate patchwork of regulatory sequences that act as a huge operating system for controlling the genome.,,, Deciphering the human genome revealed that less than 2 per cent of the 3 billion building blocks of human DNA actually consists of working genes. The ENCODE consortium has shown that the rest of the genome still has an active, biochemical function in the cells of the body. “We see that 80 per cent of the genome is actively doing something. We found that a much bigger part of the genome - a surprising amount in fact - is involved in controlling when and where proteins are produced,” he said. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-debunk-junk-dna-theory-to-reveal-vast-majority-of-human-genes-perform-a-vital-function-8106777.html
bornagain77
September 5, 2012
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I wonder if PZ Myers, Francis Collins, Venema, Ayala, Avise, etc.. will be humble enough to publicly admit, as best they can, they were wrong to all the people they misled about there being +50% junk DNA??? ,,,bornagain77
September 5, 2012
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Nice link JoeCoder! :)bornagain77
September 5, 2012
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Sorry JoeCoder, the paper obvioulsy wrong. Nice try though... :roll: :)Joe
September 5, 2012
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Forgot the link: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7414/full/nature11247.htmlJoeCoder
September 5, 2012
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Off topic, but it appears we've won the junk DNA debate once and for all. Phase 2 of the ENCODE Project was published today: "These data enabled us to assign biochemical functions for 80% of the genome, in particular outside of the well-studied protein-coding regions."JoeCoder
September 5, 2012
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Joshua G said:
There are many people who hold ID theory in such withering contempt, that it probably makes their blood pressure rise to triple digits when they discuss it.
Normal systolic blood pressure is in the range of 90-120, so one's blood pressure does not "rise to triple digits" unless it was rather low to begin with. I don't think this was the meaning you intended.sagebrush gardener
September 5, 2012
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correction: Chloroquine resistance evolves in the malaria strains not the instects.scordova
September 4, 2012
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Joshua, You're opponent is making some bald assertions. Your arguement will be more pointed if you quote authorities on their side a bit more. Francis opens with numerous bald assertions about evolution Second, we can assume for the sake of argument that common descent is true, it doesn't mean the mechanisms of evolutionism have been elucidated. So just for fun, I'll pretend that I'm debating Francis. My opening statement.
"In sciences pecking order, evolutionary biology lurks somewhere near the bottom, far closer to phrenology than to physics." -- Jerry Coyne Darwin himself said:
One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions & man without believing that all has been intelligently designed
but then he goes on to say in the very next phrase:
yet when I look to each individual organism, I can see no evidence of this.
So in Darwin's mind on a large scale the universe suggest intelligent design, but in his examination of individual organism he fails to see it. Part of the problem is that in his day he had insufficient access to see the ubiquitous complex machines that are pervasive in biology. If one can overturn Darwin's own view of the supposed lack of design in biology, and then further demonstrate the difficulty that Darwinian mechanism face in constructing such Design's, then it would seem reasonable, that by Darwin's own words:
One cannot look at this Universe with all living productions & man without believing that all has been intelligently designed
The problem is that arguments supporting Darwian mechanisms full of circular reasonings and non-sequiturs. For example, in many cases it is evident Natural Selection is an agency that would hinder change rather than facilitate it. Gould famously articulated the problem of Irreducible Complexity this way: "what good is half a wing?" Worse, arguments that favor Darwinian evolution go like this: If we remove this trait the organism and it descendants dies out of the population, therefore natural selection created that feature. But this is a gross non-sequitur. Let us take the example of modern day genetically engineered organisms. Let us suppose we endowed it with capabilities that cause it to dominate and eventually eradicate its competitors in a population. If we applied Darwinian "logic" to this example whereby we later remove this genetically engineered trait from some individuals and see that it becomes reproductively disadvantaged, would we concluded that the trait (which was engineered by man) was the product of natural selection. According to Darwinian "logic" we would, but we, being the intelligent designers know otherwise. Hence the supposed "proof" of natural selection by pointing to disadvantaged traits as evidence those traits emerged via natural selection is flawed logic times 10! And this problem arises even without supposing there is intelligent design. Another evolutionary or developmental mechanism, could in principle fortuitiously construct a trait that gives an organism and its offspring superior advantage. An example is the evolution of Chlorquine resistance in malaria carrying insects. The intermediate stages are acutally selected against or are neutral. Pure random chance rather than natural selection is a better explanation for the emergence of the trait, natural seleciton only explains the fixation of the trait not the emergence of the trait. As one biologist put it, natural seleciton explains the survival of the fittest, not the arrival of the fittest. And it should be noted, the idea of natural selection was pioneered by Creationists like Blyth. Esteemed scientists like Loren Eisely believe Darwin plagiarized much of the Blyths work..... Evolutionism doesn't deserve a place at the table with other science. That's not to say the ID does either, but the question is not whether ID is scientific or not, the question is whether it is a more adequate explanation for the features of life and the universe.
scordova
September 4, 2012
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Thanks for posting this. This looks like it will be a good and productive exchange. Salscordova
September 4, 2012
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Two questions, Joshua: 1) It seems that you use 'Neo-Darwinian' and 'Neo-Darwinism' interchangeably. Do you conflate 'Neo-Darwinian' with 'Neo-Darwinism' or do you distinguish them between a scientific theory and an ideology? If you distinguish them, then what is the difference between Neo-Darwinian evolution or Neo-Darwinian Synthesis (e.g. J. Huxley, T. Dobzhansky and R. Fisher) and Neo-Darwinism? 2) You say you think "ID theorists are correct." Do you think ID theory is 'scientific'? If so, in which fields is it 'scientific'? Please be specific and exhaustive. Is ID theory 'scientific' in *every* field that is 'scientific' or just in some scientific fields?Gregory
September 4, 2012
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