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Alicia Cartelli on Abiogenesis

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Please see the note and apology at the end of this post.

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Over on a recent thread Alicia Cartelli responded to my request that if she had “an idea how abiogenesis works” I would post it as a head post for discussion.

I have not yet had time to parse through all this, other than to note that most of what Alicia discusses below was already granted for discussion purposes in my Abiogenesis Challenge. Thus, even if we were to grant the very questionable and optimistic claims, it still does not address the central issues needed for the origin of life, including the issue of information content.

That said, I appreciate Alicia taking time to put together the below and would invite commenters to weigh in, both with respect to the evidentiary claims made, as well as the relevance to a materialistic origins scenario.

The language below is directly from Alicia, although I have added paragraph numbers to allow comments to focus on particular claims and to facilitate discussion.

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Alicia Cartelli:

Here’s a very brief overview of the basic supporting work done on abiogenesis and I have taken it a step further for EA at the end and talk briefly about a simplified example of the evolution of the first living organism. Enjoy.

1. Miller-Urey demonstrated that methane, ammonia, and hydrogen gases in a highly favorable early earth model could produce cyanide, formaldehyde, and amino acids. Subsequent studies demonstrated similar results in more realistic models. Amino acids are repeatedly produced by early earth models and have also been found in meteorites. Mimicking volcanic gases flowing through rock crevices produces amino acids and in fact, it tends to produce some of the natural amino acids over the other, unnatural residues. UV light in early earth models produce aldehydes, which are still important intermediates in amino acid synthesis. Polymerization of amino acids, although unfavorable, can be driven by certain conditions. Simply through energy input in the presence of minerals, researchers have demonstrated the formation of protein polymers. We have also observed amino acid polymerization at hydrothermal vents. Amino acids in cooler water have been shown to polymerize when carbon and sulfur-containing gases (commonly ejected by hydrothermal vents) are also present.

2. Important reactants have been hypothesized to accumulate on layers of mineral deposits in the early earth environment; dissolved gases are attracted to these minerals which helps to concentrate them to drive chemical reactions. The minerals function as catalysts as they are reactive in solution and their importance can still be seen at the active site of many enzymes today.

3. The production of acetic acid from dissolved carbon dioxide and hydrogen is spontaneous and still used today by bacteria. Acetic acid is also an important intermediate in the pathway that produces acetyl-CoA, a molecule still used by all living organisms. Recent research has shown that a variety of larger organic molecules can be produced by early earth models, including those important to the eventual synthesis of nucleotides.

4. Free radical production is much more likely in the early earth atmosphere, where there is no ozone layer. Free radicals are highly reactive and computer models have demonstrated the formation of formaldehyde through these types of reactions. In the presence of heat or UV radiation, formaldehyde molecules are able to link together, forming more complicated organic molecules such as sugars. Both 5- and 6-carbon sugars are produced in these models and other studies have shown that enrichment of the 5-carbon sugars occurs on minerals outside of hydrothermal vents. 3-carbon ketoses and other molecules related to sugars have also been found in meteorites.

5. Hydrogen cyanide was also likely produced in the early earth atmosphere as shown in Miller-Urey, and it is an important precursor for nucleic base production. Early earth atmospheric models eventually led to the production of all five nucleic bases. Prebiotic simulations have demonstrated activation of nucleotides through addition of phosphate groups, and further studies have shown that these nucleotides can polymerize in the presence of minerals. Even without nucleotide activation, polymerization of nucleic acids over 90 bases long has been demonstrated to occur when both heat and small lipids are included.

6. Recent studies have shown that, starting with a ribozyme capable of joining two ribonucleotides together, random mutations and copying produces ribozymes capable of replication activity. This enzyme is now capable of using itself as a template, to copy fragments of itself. Other studies have demonstrated molecular evolution by starting with random pools of nucleic acids and selection of nucleic acids that connect uracil base to ribose sugar. After 11 rounds of selection, the ribozyme population was 1,000,000x better at catalyzing the reaction in comparison to the uncatalyzed reaction. Numerous other studies have produced ribozymes with a host of different catalytic activities.

7. Simple lipids have been produced through early earth model systems using hydrogen, carbon dioxide and mineral catalysts. Lipids with amphipathic properties have also been discovered in meteorites. These molecules form simple membrane structures spontaneously due to the hydrophobic effect and provide an environment more suitable for life inside the first protocells. These early cell membranes provide the ability to concentrate reactants and protect products of chemical reactions. Membrane permeability of small molecules can be altered by simple proteins that span the hydrophobic layer and also by temperature changes. Simple vesicles can join together, in essence “growing” and vibrations of the surrounding media can cause them to replicate. Ions and ribonucleotides are known to diffuse through fatty acid membranes and the formation of these membranes is facilitated by minerals as well.

8. It is hypothesized that the first replicating molecule did not consist of RNA, but instead was made up of simpler nucleic acids, which consisted of simpler nucleotide molecules. Nucleic acid-polypeptide hybrid molecules have been proposed, in which nucleic bases are connected by peptide bonds instead of phosphodiester bonds. These simpler molecules are capable of both catalytic activity and acting as a template; and their ability to direct synthesis of RNA as we know it today has been demonstrated, as they have similar 3D geometries. This would allow for evolution from a pre-RNA world to an RNA world. The catalytic repertoire of ribozymes seen in nature today is quite small, however synthetic ribozymes have demonstrated a wide variety of reactions, even rivaling proteins. The distinction between proteinaceous enzymes and ribozymes seems to be the efficiency with which they catalyze reactions, not the range of possible reactions. The ability of ribozymes to catalyze their own replication has been demonstrated, but only in fragments. Ribozymes able to ligate short nucleotide strands, which has already been demonstrated, would piece these fragments together, producing more replicating ribozymes. The efficiency of this ligation reaction would be increased by containing the replicating ribozyme and nucleic acid fragments within a membrane consisting of fatty acids or some derivative of these amphipathic molecules. This would be the first living cell.

9. Sealing these ribozymes into protocells allows for evolution of these first organisms based on not just structure of subcellular components, but also how these components interact with each other. Replication of these protocells would be driven by physical agitation, unevenly splitting the intracellular components into new protocells and providing more variation for selection to act on.

10. Experiments have demonstrated that selection from pools of random RNA molecules can produce RNA polymers that bind tightly to amino acids. These RNA molecules tend to have sequences identical to the codons still used by today’s translational system. This shows the potential for a limited genetic code, of which the remnants cans still be seen today. Synthetic ribozymes have been shown to catalyze tRNA charging, moving the early translational system closer to the more efficient system seen today. Evolution of this early translational system would make protein synthesis more efficient and eventually lead to a protein-dominated world.

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EA Note for Readers:

I was away from UD for several weeks and just this week realized that the above post was still in my “Drafts” section in my UD Dashboard, with a date stamp of November 24, 2015. I did not get time to review Alicia’s discussion as I had hoped, and then forgot I hadn’t published this, in between the Thanksgiving trip with the in-laws, various obligations in early December and then Christmas and New Year’s.

My sincere apologies to Alicia for the long delay. Alicia, if there is anything you would like to add to your description, having had a few additional weeks to think about it, please let me know and I will add it to your above description.

Comments
Alicia @ 16: "The racemic question is a non-issue" The racemic question?! It's called the problem of homochirality and I'm calling bullsh-t on your knowledge of abiogenesis. Looking back on what you've written, it's becoming clear that you're BSing your way through this thread.RexTugwell
January 17, 2016
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Alicia:
It has already been demonstrated how all the major biomolecules can be synthesized by a model early earth environment
That is simply not true but it shows how gullible you are and what little you will accept as long as you think it supports your position.
And no, not nonsense, RNA structures have been shown to preferentially bind amino acids. This means there is a direct link between nucleotide sequence and amino acid specification and the chemical leftovers can still be seen in the genetic code today.
As I said, you are so gullible you will accept anything as long as you think it supports your position. Unfortunately there isn't any evidence tat the genetic code can evolve via physicochemical processesVirgil Cain
January 17, 2016
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Zachriel: One candidate for protocells are single-chain amphiphiles, which are permeable to small molecules, but act to contain complex molecular products. Amphiphiles are not membranes.Mung
January 17, 2016
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Zachriel: That’s immaterial, as more complex membranes are posited to have evolved from simpler structures. That's immaterial. Wishful thinking doesn't count.Mung
January 17, 2016
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Understanding the origin of cellular life on Earth requires the discovery of plausible pathways for the transition from complex prebiotic chemistry to simple biology, defined as the emergence of chemical assemblies capable of Darwinian evolution. We have proposed that a simple primitive cell, or protocell, would consist of two key components: a protocell membrane that defines a spatially localized compartment, and an informational polymer that allows for the replication and inheritance of functional information. Recent studies of vesicles composed of fatty-acid membranes have shed considerable light on pathways for protocell growth and division, as well as means by which protocells could take up nutrients from their environment. Additional work with genetic polymers has provided insight into the potential for chemical genome replication and compatibility with membrane encapsulation. The integration of a dynamic fatty-acid compartment with robust, generalized genetic polymer replication would yield a laboratory model of a protocell with the potential for classical Darwinian biological evolution, and may help to evaluate potential pathways for the emergence of life on the early Earth.
The origins of cellular life Note what these authors think is necessary for Darwinian evolution.Mung
January 17, 2016
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My first point is that few to none of your concessions are even needed. It has already been demonstrated how all the major biomolecules can be synthesized by a model early earth environment and the racemic question is in reality a non-issue for the origin of life. It’s not me that needs to read more carefully or follow the science more closely. “Big deal.” The fact that you think what I said is not a big deal, demonstrates your misunderstanding of the chemistry behind abiogenesis. There is no requirement for specific relative abundances. The concentration issue is really the only problem, which there are a number of hypotheses as to how it can be overcome. The racemic question is a non-issue for the origin of life, again if you understood the chemistry, you would know this. The definition of fitness is really not any different; a molecule has a higher fitness if it increases the ability of the living system to survive the environment. And no, not nonsense, RNA structures have been shown to preferentially bind amino acids. This means there is a direct link between nucleotide sequence and amino acid specification and the chemical leftovers can still be seen in the genetic code today. There is no failure to clearly think on my part, there is unfortunately a failure to understand on yours though. “The fact that some molecule exists in nature, or that certain reactions take place in certain conditions is interesting, but of little consequence on the road to OOL.” No, EA, the conditions required for certain reactions to take place are actually incredibly important to OOL, the fact that you think they aren’t is just another example of how completely clueless you are. You have no idea what you are talking about.Alicia Cartelli
January 17, 2016
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Mung: The simplest known single-celled organism is light years beyond current OOL efforts. That's immaterial, as more complex membranes are posited to have evolved from simpler structures. Mung: The cell membrane is not some simple lipid vesicle that all the resources needed by the cell can simply enter when and as needed. One candidate for protocells are single-chain amphiphiles, which are permeable to small molecules, but act to contain complex molecular products. See Chen & Walde, From Self-Assembled Vesicles to Protocells, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press 2010.Zachriel
January 17, 2016
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The simplest known single-celled organism is light years beyond current OOL efforts. The cell membrane is not some simple lipid vesicle that all the resources needed by the cell can simply enter when and as needed. Cell membranes require proteins.Mung
January 17, 2016
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Alicia: Thank you for the clarification. So it leads me to wonder what your primary point is. I presume you aren't suggesting that, even with my many concessions, that an answer for abiogenesis is close at hand. So are you simply trying to show that lots of work has been done on abiogenesis? I certainly agree. Are you suggesting that all the things I've listed in my concessions have been worked out already, or just that some progress (conveniently undefined) has been made? If all you are saying is that lots of people have been working really hard on abiogenesis and that they have lots of ideas and speculations, then great, we are in agreement. On the other hand, if you are suggesting that what you have posted somehow eliminates the need for my concessions, then you need to both read my challenge more carefully and to follow the science a little more closely. I'm not going to go through all of these, but just to start at the top, I said "I’m willing to grant you all the amino acids you want. I’ll even give them all to you in a non-racemic mixture. You want them all left-handed? No problem. I’ll also grant you the exact relative mixture of the specific amino acids you want (what percentage do you want of glycine, alanine, arginine, etc.?). I’ll further give you just the right concentration to encourage optimum reaction." Your response in #1 was that amino acids can be produced "by certain conditions," that amino acids have been found in meteorites, and so on. Agreed. And big deal. What I conceded was so far beyond that, that your response barely scratched the surface. You haven't addressed the racemic question, relative abundance, or favorable concentration levels, just to name three specific concessions I made. Then you go on in later paragraphs to talk about hypothetical things like self-replicating molecules and protocells. Again, I don't dispute that researchers have a host of wild ideas and speculations. The question is whether any of them can pan out. And for OOL more specifically, even if all the wild speculations pan out, how does life begin? Thus the thrust of my challenge. There is also the elephant in the room about what "fitness" could possibly mean in the prebiotic context. Speed? Fidelity of replication? Likelihood of reaction? Sheer numbers? No-one can say, because the very idea is nonsensical. But I'm willing to add the all-important Darwinian fitness concept to my challenge as well: go ahead and use whatever concept of fitness you want to drive the supposed "evolution" of your fledgling molecules. Finally, you mentioned in discussing your theoretical first living thing that because RNA polymers bind tightly to amino acids and tend to show some sequences used by today's translational system that we are somehow on the road to a "limited genetic code." Nonsense. The existence of a particular chemical reaction or a particular sequence does not lead to a limited genetic code. Further, your claims that such a system would move "closer to the more efficient system seen today" and that "evolution of this early translational system would make protein synthesis more efficient" are nothing but sheer, utter, unsupported speculation. Much of what you wrote demonstrates a failure to clearly think through the difference between necessary and sufficient conditions. The fact that some molecule exists in nature, or that certain reactions take place in certain conditions is interesting, but of little consequence on the road to OOL. Noting these kinds of things is about as relevant to explaining OOL as would be claiming we know how the Space Shuttle formed because we have have observed copper in nature. There need to be some serious, concrete proposals, with numbers putting things in perspective. Vague, ill-defined, handwaving "what-if's" and "maybe's" and "it-is-hypothesized's" don't cut it.Eric Anderson
January 16, 2016
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What's the proper way to rebut handwaving, Alicia?Mung
January 16, 2016
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I did not respond to the challenge so that you could "post it as a head post for discussion," EA. I simply wanted to lay out some of the basic supporting evidence behind abiogenesis (to clarify that you did not have to allow for most of the concessions that you did) and also to come up with a theoretical "first living thing", as the challenge asked. All I wanted in return was for you to rebut at least a single thing I had said. And here we are, almost two months later, still waiting for your response.Alicia Cartelli
January 16, 2016
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Ribonucleotide reduction is the only pathway for de novo synthesis of deoxyribonucleotides in extant organisms. This chemically demanding reaction, which proceeds via a carbon-centered free radical, is catalyzed by ribonucleotide reductase (RNR). The mechanism has been deemed unlikely to be catalyzed by a ribozyme, creating an enigma regarding how the building blocks for DNA were synthesized at the transition from RNA to DNA-encoded genomes. The Origin and Evolution of Ribonucleotide Reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribonucleotide_reductaseMung
January 16, 2016
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All of the elements necessary to build my 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII occur naturally, therefore given enough time...smordecai
January 16, 2016
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This might be an appropriate thread to discuss this article at ENV. An "Exquisitely Designed" Enzyme that Maintains DNA Building Blocks Silly me. I guess for some reason I thought that the molecules needed for DNA and RNA just came in across Alicia's magical membrane already pre-made and also were magically prohibited from leaving back across that membrane. Now I read about a system of manufacture and balance within the cell. Perhaps that system pre-existed the cell membrane itself and just magically got enclosed inside it when the first cells were first formed.Mung
January 16, 2016
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WJM @ 6: And remember that "could have" only means "we're not aware of any physical law stopping it".EvilSnack
January 16, 2016
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Jim Smith @3: That it is possible that matter not directed by intelligence could have done a thing they imagine is all that is necessary to satisfy a Darwinist. The probabilities are irrelevant.William J Murray
January 16, 2016
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This article showed a certain plausibility of abiogenesis until I read the following: "1. Miller-Urey demonstrated"RexTugwell
January 16, 2016
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Where is the information?OldArmy94
January 15, 2016
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How about putting some numbers behind the theory? What are the rates of all these chemical reactions? What are the total amounts of and concentrations of reactants that would be available? How much time it would take for life to arise? And don't forget the inhibiting effects of other molecules present on the rates of reactions. I realize this is a hard thing to do but someone could take a rough stab by making some assumptions or working out parts that are most open to modeling. It would create a starting point for discussion. Anything is probable given enough time and probabilistic resources. But was there enough time and were there enough resources? The intelligent design researchers calculate "No." Arguing chemistry without considering the rates of reaction is open to the criticism that it is a "just so story". Why not produce a real theory, a mathematical theory, that can be falsified?Jim Smith
January 15, 2016
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Magic up a cell membrane for us Alicia. I bet you can do better than the Protocells: Bridging Nonliving and Living Matter book. I bet you've read this book, you know, what with you being the resident expert and all on cell membranes: Membrane Structural Biology: With Biochemical and Biophysical FoundationsMung
January 15, 2016
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7. Simple lipids have been produced through early earth model systems using hydrogen, carbon dioxide and mineral catalysts. Lipids with amphipathic properties have also been discovered in meteorites.
So?
These molecules form simple membrane structures spontaneously due to the hydrophobic effect and provide an environment more suitable for life inside the first protocells.
From lipids to membranes to protocells with a flick of the magic wand.
These early cell membranes provide the ability to concentrate reactants and protect products of chemical reactions.
Sadly, early cell membranes are not produced by the imagination.
Membrane permeability of small molecules can be altered by simple proteins that span the hydrophobic layer and also by temperature changes.
Poof a membrane protein into existence. Just one.
Simple vesicles can join together, in essence “growing” and vibrations of the surrounding media can cause them to replicate.
Nothing like what happens with a real cell. Spin a tale A tale of creation It cannot fail A magic libationMung
January 15, 2016
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