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Adam and Eve and Bryan College: BioLogos strikes

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Some say 20% of faculty are leaving.

Students and faculty at Bryan are upset at a move last month by the school’s board of trustees to “clarify” that the college believes Adam and Eve were historical figures created directly by God. The board says the clarification does not change the school’s historical position on origins. But some at Bryan believe the board’s action was intended to force out professors who may be sympathetic to evolution, and think it was unfair to do so at a time when faculty contracts are due for renewal. …

An English professor at the school, Whit Jones, said the timing of the clarification had been a “puzzle” to many on faculty, but might have been sparked by recent writings from two of his colleagues: Kenneth Turner, a Bible professor, and Brian Eisenback, an associate professor of biology who graduated from Bryan College in 2002. Together, Turner and Eisenback are writing science education materials under a grant from The BioLogos Foundation, an organization in Grand Rapids, Mich., that promotes theistic evolution.

Theistic evolution, also called “evolutionary creation,” posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans. Bryan’s original belief statement would seem to preclude theistic evolution for humans because it says mankind’s sin “incurred physical … death”—death being a necessary component for evolution.

Though some proponents of creationism or intelligent design would argue the case for evolution is flimsy, Turner and Eisenback wrote otherwise in a two-part article that appeared on the BioLogos website in December: “Macroevolution is robust and has multiple lines of evidence in support of it, including the fossil record and molecular biology. … The reality is that evolution is not a theory teetering on the edge of collapse. More.

The obvious problem, for a person who has been following the news stream, is that the fossil record and molecular biology so often do not agree. And “evolution” is not so much “a theory teetering on the edge of collapse” as a theory that doesn’t explain anything. That is, we say “evolved to do” when we really mean “does.”

Darwin’s followers, including BioLogians, get marks for their Darwinian piety, talking this way.

Laszlo BenczeBut Laszlo Bencze comments:

Apparently some former graduates of Bryan College are writing a science curriculum that will cover the full spectrum of views from hard core evolution to hard core creation. As best I can tell, the authors favor “theistic evolution” although they prefer the term “evolutionary creationism” which is the same thing. Here’s a definition from the article: “Theistic evolution, also called ‘evolutionary creation,’ posits God used evolution to create biological life, including humans.”

Let’s translate that into straightforward English. “God used a process which works perfectly without any intelligent agent to create biological life.” Another way of saying it is “God used a completely self-contained process which is not accessible to any agent to create life.”

We start to see the problem with these statements. The problem is God. The statements work so much better if we simply eliminate God, whose role seems limited to creating a contradiction.

“A process which works perfectly without any intelligent agency created life.” There. Now there’s no contradiction and the statement makes sense.

Or, if you prefer, “God, an agent of unlimited intelligence and act, created life.” That statement, too, is shorn of contradiction and makes sense.

But there’s no way to combine these two statements into a coherent and logical proposition.

Like a figure which is both a circle and a square at the same time in the same way, theistic evolution is a flat out contradiction and makes no sense.

Maybe that’s what makes it somehow feel so right to so many people these days. 😉
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Comments
Barb, I have long since pointed out that as humans, we are finite, fallible, and therefore limited. I have also pointed out just how and why on this particular topic, Bullinger and Vine are in error, on evidence that starts with the text in front of us. Jesus carried his patibulum, until he had to be helped. That alone, in light of known Roman praxis, decides, T or t. And there is much more that -- unfortunately -- you continue to fail to attend to. Where, the lexicons consistently point out that there is a range of meanings for Stauros relevant to C1 Palestine. Which, in context, makes the patibulum Jesus carried decisive. Again and again, you have tried to narrow the range of meaning established through a survey of usage. And, you should by now have realised that it would not decisively matter to me what shape the cross of Jesus was. But, I have a duty to respect well warranted findings, and to recognise and responding to well poisoning indoctrination tactics. Which, sadly, is just what we are seeing. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2014
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Chalcis, Normally, I agree. But that is not what is at stake here. What is happening is polarising indoctrination. The idea is, that by ginning up a notion that -- contrary to the direct evidence of the text (Jesus carrying a patibulum) and the use of language [linked and cited] -- the use of the cross as a Christian symbol is a visual "proof" of apostasy and pagan influence. Thus, the indoctrinated can be poisoned in mind and heart, so that the will not listen outside the circle of their system. All they need is to see a cross or hear or read the term, cross, and the well-poisoning program kicks in. And, in this case, this is just one of several dozen similar points. (I have not bothered to go into any grand point by point refutations, though I could. I did link a useful site.) I have basically spoken for record, and in so doing, pointed out the basic problem of unresponsiveness to evidence. I could go on to talk about Schein's concept of unfreezing leading to motivation to change, changing and refreezing. There is a whole social psychology of change, and the issue is the integrity of the process. There are too many sects and ideologies that try to lock in and manipulate by playing at well poisoning. That's one reason I strongly emphasise the need to address warrant on fact and logic, rooted in worldview level issues and first principles of right reason. Let us learn from cases like this, the importance of respect for facts and sound reasoning on facts. KFkairosfocus
June 4, 2014
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KF: You have presented the facts clearly, debunking any argument against the cross. The life altering decision/that which has an eternal consequence for all men and women alike is accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. All other arguments about Christ really does not matter when it comes to a discussion with a JW, a Muslim or any other non-believer. The cross was never at the center of the Christian faith. Christ is at the center of the Christian faith. Christ is the ONLY path to Salvation. If a person denies Christ as Devine and being the one true path, then he/ she has no hope, Jesus stated this clearly in John 14:6. Therefore, a stake or Cross discussion is a futile discussion to have with anyone who rejects Jesus as God and Savior. Note: generally don't like to feed comments that are totally irrelevant to the subject matter posted / thread hijacker. since esteemed KF responded to the hijacker, posting an observation and simply could not resist the temptation when it came to a discussion about Christ.Chalciss
June 4, 2014
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KF:
Barb, on the contrary, the translation cross and the understanding that in context t or T is most credibly intended, are responsible — and “we cannot honestly translate” is absolutely improperly accusatory and loaded
Based on what? Your “refutation” of Vine as a scholar? And the other scholars and lexicons I posted above, which also translate stauros as stake…are they all non-credible sources? Why or why not?
, without warrant; GIVEN EVIDENCE ON THE TABLE FOR LITERALLY WEEKS THAT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO HEED.
See my two posts from yesterday.
Please think again. At this point, you are simply not coming across as reasonable but as indoctrinated and accusing.
As are you. Note, also, that I have been told I am completely wrong and have been called a liar by Mung. I haven't resorted to pathetically weak ad hominem attacks. Mung,
Persecution complex much? I believe I’ve had something to say re your JW beliefs in response to your posts in a whopping total of three threads?
Why are you derailing other threads? Are you doing so simply because you don't like my beliefs? Then why not "leave me in my folly" as you mentioned?
On the contrary, it is relevant.
Not really. Remember the issue is what the gospel writers stated, not the evolution of language over time. Again I ask: are you or KF arguing that there is a higher authority than the Bible? Because the Bible plainly states that stauros was the word used, and it has been translated properly as stake or pole, based on the Greek language.
This article claims that the writers of the Greek NT used the word the same as it was used in classical Greek, as if the meaning had never changed!
Because the meaning in classical and Koine Greek was the same, as pointed out above. The meaning did not change until much later.
If the meaning did change over time, it’s relevant to ask when and why it changed in order to make an inference about the meaning as understood by the NT writers.
The meaning AT THE TIME OF WRITING THE NT is what is relevant, not what the word meant centuries later. Your argument fails.
Otherwise this is just a dogmatic statement from the watchtower society with no basis in fact.
See above. Your argument doesn’t hold water.
And that’s just simply false, as we have seen. They are in effect claiming that the meaning never changed. Thus whether the meaning did in fact change is relevant. “Stauros in both classical and koine Greek carries no thought of a “cross” made from two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile or pole.” – Aid To Bible Understanding (1971), p. 824 And there it is in black and white. They claim it carries no other meaning in Koine Greek. That is false.
The meaning in classical and Koine is the same; this was posted above, but you’ve evidently not seen that post.
So again, if the meaning changed, it is relevant.
Not if it changed AFTER the writing of the NT was completed. What counts is what the gospel writers meant.
“No Biblical evidence even intimates that Jesus died on a cross.” – Awake!, 8 November 1972, p. 28 False. As we have seen.
You, of course, noticed that the sentence mentioned Biblical evidence? The word stauros is translated properly as stake, as borne out by translations besides the NWT as well as by Greek scholars and historians. See also the verses cited where the apostles use the term "xylon" meaning tree.
So the fact that the meaning changed needs to be acknowledged. And then one must ask why the watchtower claims it never changed, and then why they left out relevant points from their quoting of Fairbairn to hide from their readers the fact that it had changed by the time of the Gospels. All completely relevant.
Copied from my post above, which Mung appears to have ignored:
The Classic Greek Dictionary, Greek-English and English-Greek, With an Appendix of Proper and Geographical Names prepared by George Ricker Berry reads under "stauros": "..an upright pale, stake or pole; in plu. a palisade. II. the Cross.(p.648). Although this lexicon seems to give "the Cross" as a meaning for "stauros" it seems rather as a reference than a meaning("the Cross" rather than "a cross")and to that of Jesus Christ. Hence definition II is somewhat 'suspect' and may only reflect the lexicons belief that the stauros in the NT was cross-shaped or it may be giving it as a reference, that is, that when we read in the English Bibles "cross" this is from the Greek stauros and no indication it was actually cross-shaped. In its definition 1 though there is no doubt the meaning of stauros and anything other than that stauros meant more than one piece of wood, whether it was a "pale, stake or pole" is not mentioned and certainly none of which were 'cross-shaped.' This is its meaning in all the Greek classics such as Homer. There is no evidence that the from or shape of the stauros in Jesus Christ's case was any different. And again: According to a Greek-English lexicon by Liddell and Scott, this word means "Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree." "wood . . . " Hence in the Authorized Version/King James Version this word is rendered as "tree" at Acts 5:30. The Complete Jewish Bible by D. Stern has here "stake." See also Acts 13:29; Galatians 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24. Please feel free to explain why this lexicon by Liddell and Scott is incorrect in their definition of xylon, a word used by Bible writers that relates to stauros. And please feel free to explain why Berry’s citation above is incorrect.
Stuff on Constantine, Tammuz etc is late 3rd or early 4th century, maybe 300 or so years later.
Constantine is 3rd or 4th century; Tammuz predated Christianity as was shown above.
Please, if you ever come across it, do let me know if in Classical Greek you find the word stauros referring to a “torture stake” rather than to the meaning of stauros that we are aware of from Classical Greek.
The definition of stauros has been explained repeatedly. The reason for translating the word as “torture stake” in the NWT was also explained. Try actually reading the posts you’re responding to.
A stake or pole. Not a “torture stake.” contra the doctrine of the JW’s.
Hey, at least you now agree that it’s a stake and not a cross.
Not a “torture stake.” contra the JW’s doctrine.
Explained above. Responding to a post you obviously haven’t read only makes you look ignorant.
No Biblical evidence even intimates that Jesus died on a “torture stake.”
Oh, so you’ve refuted every cited scripture in this thread? No?
Such as?
Try my two posts from yesterday, neither of which were apparently read. Neither you nor KF attempted to show where or how any of the scholars and lexicons cited were incorrect.
Your “relevant evidence” from Vine was refuted.
By someone who claims he’s not a credible scholar. Here are his credentials (Vine’s): Greek scholar, educator, editor, pastor and author, educated at University College of Wales; BA & MA in "Ancient Classics" from University of London, pastor at Manvers Hall Church in Bath for 40 years. Yeah, I think I’ll take his word over KF’s opinion.
Your “relevant evidence” from Fairbairn was refuted.
Not really. Fairbairn does acknowledge that the word’s meaning changed, but his definition of the word as stake or pole is still relevant. And remember, we’re concerned with what the Bible states, not with what a church father states.
We rebut that evidence.
Here is a list of what I’ve posted that neither you nor KF have even mentioned: 1. The Companion Bible, published by the Oxford University Press. On page 186 in the “Appendixes” it says: “Homer uses the word stauros of an ordinary pole or stake, or a single piece of timber. And this is the meaning and usage of the word throughout the Greek classics. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. Hence the use of the word xulon [which means a timber] in connection with the manner of our Lord’s death, and rendered tree in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; Gal. 3:13; 1 Pet. 2:24. . . . There is nothing in the Greek N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber. . . . The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.” 2. The Critical Lexicon and Concordance, observes: “Both words (stauros and xylon) disagree with the modern idea of a cross, with which we have become familiarised by pictures.” 3. Admitting uncertainty as to whether Christ died on a cross, the church paper of the Evangelical-Lutheran State Church of Schleswig-Holstein, Die kirche der Heimat (The Church of the Homeland), remarked in its issue of August 2, 1951: “Whether the cross on Golgotha had a crossbar or not or whether it was just a plain stake, whether it had the T-form or whether it had a crossbar placed across the upright stake is hardly possible to determine now.” 4. Observes the Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature: “The sign of the cross is found as a holy symbol among several ancient nations, who may accordingly be named . . . devotees of the cross. . . . The symbol of the cross appears to have been most various in its significations. Sometimes it is the Phallus [used in sex worship], sometimes the planet Venus.” 5. The authoritative Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible primary meaning for staurós “a stake or post,” and for xýlon “timber,” “tree” or “wood.” 6. The book Records of Christianity states: “Even the Cross was not directly employed in church decoration . . . The earliest symbol of Christ was a fish (second century); on the earliest carved tombs he is represented as the Good Shepherd (third century).” 7. J. Hall in his Dictionary of Subjects & Symbols in Art writes: “After the recognition of Christianity by Constantine the Great, and more so from the 5th cent., the cross began to be represented on sarcophagi [stone coffins], lamps, caskets and other objects.” Adds Sir E. A. Wallis Budge in Amulets and Talismans: “The cross did not become the supreme emblem and symbol of Christianity until the IVth century.” 8. In the second century C.E., for example, Minucius Felix wrote: “Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 191) 9. “There was no use of the crucifix,” says one historian of the early Christians, “and no material representation of the cross.” [History of the Christian Church, J. F. Hurst, Vol. I, p. 366.] 10. The writings of Livy, a Roman historian of the first century B.C., crux means a mere stake. Such a single stake for impalement of a criminal was called crux simplex, and the method of nailing him to such an instrument of torture is illustrated by the Roman Catholic scholar, Justus Lipsius, of the 16th century. We present herewith a photographic copy of his illustration on page 647, column 2, of his book De Cruce Liber Primus. This is the manner in which Jesus was impaled.” 11. At Galatians 3:13 the apostle Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:23 and says: ‘It is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.’” Hence the Jewish Christians would hold as accursed and hateful the stake upon which Jesus had been executed. 12. Moses Maimonides, of the 12th century: ‘They never hang upon a tree which clings to the soil by roots; but upon a timber uprooted, that it might not be an annoying plague: for a timber upon which anyone has been hanged is buried; that the evil name may not remain with it and people should say, “This is the timber on which so-and-so was hanged.” So the stone with which anyone has been stoned; and the sword, with which the one killed has been killed; and the cloth or mantle with which anyone has been strangled; all these things are buried along with those who perished.’ (Apud Casaub. in Baron. Exercitat. 16, An. 34, Num. 134) 13. Says Kalinski in Vaticinia Observationibus Illustrata, page 342: ‘Consequently since a man hanged was considered the greatest abomination—the Jews also hated more than other things the timber on which he had been hanged, so that they covered it also with earth, as being equally an abominable thing.’ 14. Also take a look at a statue found in the Louvre Museum in France: http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre.....nt-marsyas. This provides a good example of true meaning of Greek words stauros in Matthew 27:40 and xylon in Acts 5:30. 15. Gunnar Samuelsson, biblical scholar, states: “”There is no distinct punishment called ‘crucifixion,’ no distinct punishment device called a ‘crucifix’ anywhere mentioned in any of the ancient texts including the Gospels,” [http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/jesus-christ-died-cross-scholar/story?id=11066130] Link to Samuelsson’s thesis: http://www.hum.gu.se/english/c......cid938216 17. The book Das Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.” 18. The Classic Greek Dictionary, Greek-English and English-Greek, With an Appendix of Proper and Geographical Names prepared by George Ricker Berry reads under “stauros”: “..an upright pale, stake or pole; in plu. a palisade. II. the Cross.(p.648). 19. The Concordant Literal New Testament with the Keyword Concordance states: “stauros STANDer: cross, an upright stake or pole, without any crosspiece, now, popularly, cross…” Also “stauroo cause-STAND, crucify, drive a stake into the ground, fasten on a stake, impale, now by popular usage, crucify, though there was no crosspiece.”- pp. 63, 64, Greek-English Keyword Concordance, Concordant Publishing Concern, 1983, 3rd printing of 6th edition of 1976. 20. The book Dual Heritage-The Bible and the British Museum states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stauros] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.” 21. My post at #167: The Non-Christian Cross, An Enquiry into the Origin and History of the Symbol Eventually Adopted as that of our Religion, by John Denham Parsons: “seems therefore tolerably clear (1) that the sacred writngs forming the New testament, to the statements of which-as translated for us-we bow down in reverence, do not tell us that Jesus was affixed to a cross-shaped instrument of execution; (2) that the balance of evidence is against the truth of our statements to the effect that the instrument in question was cross-shaped, and our sacred symbol originally a representation of the same; and (3) that we Christians have in bygone days acted, alas! still act, anything but ingenuously in regard to the symbol of the cross.” Here are a few others: 22. A Bible Commentary for English Readers, edited by C.J.Elliott, Vol. VI, page 549: "Thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee." Tradition, from Tertullian downwards(Scorp. 15; De Praescr. 35), states that he was crucified. Tertullian himself so understood them, for he says, "Then is Peter girded by another when he is bound to the cross." But on the other hand, (1) the girding(with chains) would precede, not follow, the crucifixion; (2) it would be more natural to speak of another stretching forth his hands if the nailing to them to the cross was intended; (3) the last clause, "carry thee whither thou wouldst not," could not follow the stretching of the hands on the transverse beam of the cross. It seems impossible therefore to adopt the traditional reference to crucifixion, and we must take the words, "stretch forth your hands," as expressing symbolically the personal surrender previous to being girded by another. To what exact form of death the context does not specify. We have thus in the second pair of sentences, as in the first and third, a complete parallelism, the stretching forth of the hands being part of the girding by another, and the whole being in contrast to "Thou girdest thyself."" 23. "Stretch forth thy hands. "[John 21:18] The allusion to the extending of the hands on the cross, which some interpreters have found here, is fanciful.”–Vincent’s Word Studies 24. Note, also the English word “impale” as used in the NWT. It is from the French "empaler" which derives from Medieval Latin "impalere," from the Latin "in"-on + "palus"- stake, pole. Hence dictionaries define this word as "to pierce through with, or fix on, something pointed; transfix" and "to punish or torture by fixing on a stake." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible states: "4717. STAUROW... to impale on the cross;...." Hence, to use the word "impale" in the N.T. to describe how Jesus was fixed upon the stake is quite proper. 25. The woodcut illustration by Lipsius, showing clearly that the crux simplex (Latin, simple upright stake), was one method used by Romans to punish criminals. 26. Wood at the time and place of Jesus’s execution was scarce. There is an economical reason for using only one piece of wood, and this was so in the eastern parts of the Roman Empire (stauros, stake). The New Testament is wholly silent on there being two pieces of wood used at the execution. Adding to this the scarcity of wood in Jerusalem argues in favor of stauros being only one stake or pole. 27. A very early representation of the Crucifixion in which only the two thieves are bound to the stauros. The sun and moon are placed either side of Christ who stands in an attitude of prayer. The picture was published in Mrs Jameson & Lady Eastlake The History of Our Lord as exemplified in works of art, in 2 volumes, London, 1864, pages 167-8. They make the point that this very early crucifixion scene shows the two thieves bound to the stake and that depiction of three crosses only appears in later Christian art. 28. Finally, how is it that this pagan symbol [representative of the god Tammuz], used in pagan religions before and after the 1st century can find any place in a Christians' life in the light of what Paul wrote at 2 Cor.6:14-18. Can a Christian 'employ' a pagan symbol when pagans revered it as an idol while still claiming his worship is pure of idolatry just because his religion does not use the cross as an 'idol'?
Oh my, the lies. Even Barb admits this is a lie.
No, I do not. Do not ever put words in my mouth. The device Jesus was executed on can be referred to as a cross. That it is not a cross is borne out by the article you linked to. Congratulations again on completely missing the point!Barb
June 4, 2014
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Barb @ 166:
Are you openly admitting that you haven’t read anything I’ve posted?
Given that the post you're responding to demonstrates that your assertion that we have not read anything you've posted is false (a lie), I would have to say no, I am not admitting any such thing.
Did you notice that it stated clearly that the word stauros PROPERLY SIGNIFIED a stake? What does that tell you, if anything? And what about the links I posted above? Read any of them? What did you think, and why?
I don't know what the "it" is to which you are referring. And my search on "properly signified a stake" returns, guess what, a JW publication. Have you no shame?
Definition: The device on which Jesus Christ was executed is referred to by most of Christendom as a cross. The expression is drawn from the Latin crux.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989219 Oh my, the lies. Even Barb admits this is a lie.Mung
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An exercise in self-delusion:
For it was only through JW publications that you learned that Jesus was not crucified on a cross. You’ve already admitted that this was “new light” not delivered until 1936 and that the prior teaching was false. And you’ve already admitted that this “new light” is not what JW’s always believed and taught. You’ve also admitted that the doctrine could change tomorrow as additional “new light” is revealed.
Barb:
How do you know for a fact that I learned this only through JW publications? You don’t, of course.
You've as much as admitted to the fact! Prior to 1936 the JW's never taught such nonsense, by your own admission. Also by your own admission, this was "new light" taught only to JW's. It's a perfectly reasonable inference that it was taught through JW publications, and you confirm this inference.Mung
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Barb:
I have posted relevant evidence which has gone completely unchallenged.
Such as? Your "relevant evidence" from Vine was refuted. Your "relevant evidence" from Fairbain was refuted. Try to see things from our perspective: You post "relevant evidence." We rebut that evidence. You claim we never rebutted that evidence and post more "relevant evidence" without even bothering to admit that your previous "relevant evidence" has been rebutted and then claim that we have failed to rebut your "relevant evidence." So how are you keeping track? Please give us a list of your "relevant evidence." We will be more than happy to identify evidence already addressed and do our best to also address any other "relevant evidence" you may be able to provide. But if this is to be a "proper debate," then you also need to rebut our "relevant evidence." This you have failed to do. Don't be a hypocrite.Mung
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kf, Methinks the authors of the JW articles believed that Jesus was crucified by a Classical Greek! Please, if you ever come across it, do let me know if in Classical Greek you find the word stauros referring to a "torture stake" rather than to the meaning of stauros that we are aware of from Classical Greek.
“The inspired writers of the Christian Greek scriptures wrote in the common (koine) Greek and used the word stauros to mean the same as in the classical Greek, namely, a stake or pole, a single one without a crossbeam of any kind or at any angle. There is no proof to the contrary.”
A stake or pole. Not a "torture stake." contra the doctrine of the JW's.
Stauros in both classical and koine Greek carries no thought of a “cross” made from two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile or pole.
Not a "torture stake." contra the JW's doctrine.
“No Biblical evidence even intimates that Jesus died on a cross.”
No Biblical evidence even intimates that Jesus died on a "torture stake." So to follow the JW's own reasoning, in Classical Greek stauros meant only a stake or pole. It never meant "torture stake." It carries no thought of torture. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile or pole. No Biblical evidence even intimates that Jesus died on a "torture stake.”Mung
June 3, 2014
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PS: Fairbain clip here, with onward details and further information.kairosfocus
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Barb, as just one specific reminder, the appropriate historical-linguistic context for understanding what is being said in the NT about Jesus' crucifixion is the run up to and the decades of the C1 in the Roman Empire. And, judicial praxis . . . which is reasonably summarised in Fairbain and is developed in more details as has been linked as well. Surprise, not, it is much as you have been pointed to over the past several weeks now. Stuff on Constantine, Tammuz etc is late 3rd or early 4th century, maybe 300 or so years later. About like projecting present circumstances unto those of the early 1700's. The substantial matter is that probably by metonymy and figuring out ever more cruel refinements, crucifixion and the crosses it was done on came to include T, t, X and even Y (forked trees) as well as the simple stake, I. The standard Roman praxis was the forcing of the victim to carry the cross-beam or patibulum to the place of execution, where he would be nailed to it or tied to it and it would be fixed to a waiting upright. Feet would also be fastened perhaps near ground, perhaps 3 - 4 ft up or so. These known standard patterns were described by using stauros as has repeatedly been pointed out to you. And, the NT evidence makes it plain that Jesus was a victim of pretty much this standard praxis, starting with the horrific flogging and being made to carry the patibulum. Where the patibulum points strongly to T or t, regardless of your dismissiveness towards the NT reports. So, the matter is one of respecting evidence, history and linguistic usage. Please think again. KFkairosfocus
June 3, 2014
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Barb:
The fact that the meaning of the word changed is not relevant.
On the contrary, it is relevant. Let's review:
“The inspired writers of the Christian Greek scriptures wrote in the common (koine) Greek and used the word stauros to mean the same as in the classical Greek, namely, a stake or pole, a single one without a crossbeam of any kind or at any angle. There is no proof to the contrary.” – New World Translation (1950), p. 769
This article claims that the writers of the Greek NT used the word the same as it was used in classical Greek, as if the meaning had never changed! If the meaning did change over time, it's relevant to ask when and why it changed in order to make an inference about the meaning as understood by the NT writers. Otherwise this is just a dogmatic statement from the watchtower society with no basis in fact.
“The evidence is, therefore, completely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two pieces of timber placed at a right angle” (New World translation, 1950, p.771).
And that's just simply false, as we have seen. They are in effect claiming that the meaning never changed. Thus whether the meaning did in fact change is relevant.
“Stauros in both classical and koine Greek carries no thought of a “cross” made from two timbers. It means only an upright stake, pale, pile or pole.” – Aid To Bible Understanding (1971), p. 824
And there it is in black and white. They claim it carries no other meaning in Koine Greek. That is false. So again, if the meaning changed, it is relevant.
“No Biblical evidence even intimates that Jesus died on a cross.” – Awake!, 8 November 1972, p. 28
False. As we have seen. So the fact that the meaning changed needs to be acknowledged. And then one must ask why the watchtower claims it never changed, and then why they left out relevant points from their quoting of Fairbain to hide from their readers the fact that it had changed by the time of the Gospels. All completely relevant.Mung
June 3, 2014
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Barb:
Or you’d stop posting and following me from thread to thread with little tidbits about what I believe (or don’t believe, as the case may be).
Persecution complex much? I believe I've had something to say re your JW beliefs in response to your posts in a whopping total of three threads?Mung
June 3, 2014
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Barb, on the contrary, the translation cross and the understanding that in context t or T is most credibly intended, are responsible -- and "we cannot honestly translate" is absolutely improperly accusatory and loaded, without warrant; GIVEN EVIDENCE ON THE TABLE FOR LITERALLY WEEKS THAT YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY REFUSED TO HEED. Please think again. At this point, you are simply not coming across as reasonable but as indoctrinated and accusing. Please, think again. KFkairosfocus
June 3, 2014
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Barb, please. You made claims about Fairbain and I pointed out, in detail what he actually taught, which again underscores the significance of what I have had to say. KFkairosfocus
June 3, 2014
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KF, This is completely off topic, but I want to know your opinion. Please do me a favor, would you mind taking a quick look at the last few comments in the below link? Thank you! https://uncommondescent.com/genomics/central-dogma-missing-and-presumed-dead/#comment-502637Dionisio
June 3, 2014
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KF:
Barb. at this point, sadly, you are well off course.
So, you haven't read what I just posted, and don't plan on reading it. Nice to know.Barb
June 3, 2014
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Barb. at this point, sadly, you are well off course. Please rethink. No scholar is better than facts, assumptions and reasoning, whether the two you cite or any other. As the just linked and onward linked will show to any fair minded person, those facts are by no means friendly to your claims, nor to the way you have cited Fairbairn. Which BTW, feeds into the quotemining accusation, which is part of why I went tot he extreme of citation you will see if you go to the just linked. Please think again. KFkairosfocus
June 3, 2014
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F/N: I have blogged, giving a GIF of the screen shots, here. When read as a whole, Fairbairn is quite revealing. KFkairosfocus
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This work was cited earlier by me. This a lengthy citation, but it’s worth reading. The Non-Christian Cross, An Enquiry into the Origin and History of the Symbol Eventually Adopted as that of our Religion, by John Denham Parsons: In the thousand and one works supplied for our information upon matters connected with the history of our race, we are told that Alexander the Great, Titus, and various Greek, Roman and Oriental rulers of ancient days, "crucified" this or that person; or that they "crucified" so many at once, or during their reign. And the instrument of execution is called a "cross." The natural result is that we imagine that all the people said to have been "crucified" were executed by being nailed or otherwise affixed to a cross-shaped instrument set in the ground, like that to be seen in our fanciful illustrations of the execution of Jesus. This was, however, by no means necessarily the case. For instance, the death spoken of, death by the stauros, included transfixion by a pointed stauros or stake, as well as affixion to an unpointed stauros or stake; and the latter punishment was not always that referred to. It is also probable that in most of the many cases where we have no clue as to which kind of stauros was used, the cause of the condemned one's death was transfixion by a pointed stauros. Moreover, even if we could prove that this very common mode of capital punishment was in no case that referred to by the historians who lived in bygone ages, and that death was in each instance caused by affixion to, instead of transfixion by, a stauros, we would still have to prove that each stauros had a cross-bar before we could correctly describe the death caused by it as death by crucifixion. It is also, upon the face of it, somewhat unlikely that the ancients would in every instance in which they despatched a man by affixing him to a post sat in the ground, have gone out of their way to provide the artistic but quite un-necessary cross-bar of our imagination. As it is, in any case, well known that the Romans very often despatched those condemned to death by affixing them to a stake or post which had no cross-bar, the question arises as to what proof we have that a cross-bar was used in the case of Jesus... What the ancients used to signify when they used the word stauros , can easily be seen by referring to either the Iliad or the Odyssey... The stauros used as an instrument of execution was (1)a small pointed pole or stake used for thrusting through the body, so as to pin the latter to the earth, or otherwise render death inevitable; (2)a similar pole or stake fixed in the ground point upwards, upon which the condemned one was forced down till incapable of escaping; (3)a much longer and stouter pole or stake fixed point upwards, upon which the victim, with his hands tied behind him, was lodged in such a way that the point should enter his breast and the weight of the body cause every movement to hasten the end; and (4)a stout un-pointed pole or stake set upright in the earth, from which the victim was suspended by a rope round his wrists, which were first tied behind him so that the position might become an agonising one; or to which the doomed one was bound, or ,in the case of Jesus, nailed. That this last named kind of stauros, which was admittedly that to which Jesus was affixed, had in every case a cross-bar attached is untrue; that it had in most cases is unlikely; that it had in the case of Jesus, is unproven. Even as late as the Middle Ages, the word stauros seems to have primarily signified a straight piece of wood without a cross-bar. For the famous Greek lexicographer, Suidas, expressly states, "Stauroi; ortha xula peregota," and both Eustathius and Hesychius affirm that it meant a straight stake or pole. The side light thrown upon the question by Lucian is also worth noting. The writer, referring to Jesus, alludes to "That sophist of theirs who was fastened to a skolops;" which word signified a single piece of wood, and not two pieces joined together. Only a passing notice need be given to the fact that in some of the Epistles of the New Testament, which seem to have been written before the Gospels, though, like the other Epistles, misleadingly placed after the gospels, Jesus is said to have been hanged upon a tree.....the word translated "tree," though that always used in referring to what is translated as the "Tree of Life," signified not only "tree" but also "wood." It should be noted, however, that these five references of the Bible to the execution of Jesus as having been carried out by his suspension upon a tree or a piece of timber set in the ground, in no wise convey the impression that two pieces of wood nailed together in the form of a cross is what is referred to. Moreover, there is not, even in the Greek text of the Gospels, a single intimation in the Bible to the effect that the instrument actually used in the case of Jesus was cross-shaped Had there been any such intimation in the twenty-seven Greek works referring to Jesus, which our Church selected out of a very large number and called the "New Testament," the Greek letter chi, which was cross-shaped, would in the ordinary course have been referred to; and some such term as Kata chiasmon, "like a chi," made use of. It should also be borne in mind that though the Christians of the first three centuries certainly made use of a transient sign of the cross in the non-Mosaic initiatory rite of baptism and at other times, it is, as will be shown in the next two chapters, admitted that they did not use or venerate it as a representation of the instrument of execution upon which Jesus died. Moreover, if in reply to the foregoing it should be argued that as it is well known that cross-shaped figures of wood, and other representations of the sign or figure of the cross, were not venerated by Christians until after the fateful day when Constantine set out at the head of the soldiers of Gaul in his famous march against Rome ; and that the Christian crosses of the remainder of the fourth century were representations of the instrument of execution upon which Jesus died; a dozen other objections present themselves if we are honest enough to face the fact that we have to show that they were so from the first. For the Gauls, and therefore the soldiers of Gaul, venerated as symbols of the Sun-God and Giver of Life and Victory the cross of four equal arms, + or X , and the solar wheel, while the so-called cross which Constantine and his troops are said to have seen above the midday sun was admittedly the monogram of Christ, , which was admittedly an adaptation of the solar wheel, as will be shown further on ; and it was as tokens of the conquest of Rome by his Gaulish troops, that Constantine, as their leader, erected one of these symbols in the centre of the Eternal City, and afterwards placed upon his coins the crosses.......the cross of four equal arms X, and several variations of that other cross of four equal arms, the right-angled +. And it was not till long after these crosses were accepted as Christian, and Constantine was dead and buried, that the cross with one of its arms longer than the other three (or two), which alone could be a representation of an instrument of execution, was made use of by Christians. Another point to be remembered is that when Constantine, apparently conceiving ours, as the only non-national religion with ramifications throughout his world-wide dominions, to be the only one that could weld together the many nations which acknowledged his sway, established Christianity as the State Religion of the Roman Empire, the Church to which we belong would naturally have had to accept as its own the symbols which Constantine had caused to be those of the State in question. And it should be added that the cross of later days with one of its arms longer than the others, if not also the assumption that the stauros to which Jesus was affixed had a cross-bar, may have been merely the outcome of a wish to associate with the story of Jesus these Gaulish symbols of victory which had become symbols of the Roman State, and therefore of its State Church. Anyway, the first kind of cross venerated by Christians was not a representation of an instrument of execution ; and the fact that we hold sacred many different kinds of crosses, although even if we could prove that the stauros to which Jesus was affixed had a cross-bar but one kind could be a representation of that instrument of execution, has to be accounted for. Our only plausible explanation of the fact that we hold sacred almost any species of cross is that, as we do not know what kind of cross Jesus died upon, opinions have always differed as to which was the real cross. This difference of opinion among Christians as to the shape of the instrument upon which Jesus was executed, has certainly existed for many centuries. But as an explanation of the many different kinds of crosses accepted by us as symbols of Christ, it only lands us in a greater difficulty. For if we did not know what kind of cross Jesus died upon when we accepted the cross as our symbol, the chances obviously are that we accepted the cross as our symbol for some other reason than that we assert. As a matter of fact our position regarding the whole matter is illogical and unsatisfactory, and we ought to alter it by honestly facing the facts that we cannot satisfactorily prove that our symbol was adopted as a representation of the instrument of execution to which Jesus, was affixed, and that we do not even know for certain that the instrument in question was cross-shaped. It need only be added that there is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross. Taking the whole of the foregoing facts into consideration, it will be seen that it is not a little misleading upon the part of our teachers to translate the word stauros as "cross" when rendering the Greek documents of the Church into our native tongue, and to support that action by putting "cross" in our lexicons as the meaning of stauros without carefully explaining that that was at any rate not the primary meaning of the word in the days of the Apostles, did not become its primary signification till long afterwards, and became so then, if at all, only because, despite the absence of corroborative evidence, it was assumed that the particular stauros upon which Jesus was executed had that particular shape. But-the reader may object-how about the Greek word which in our Bibles is translated as "crucify" or "crucified?" Does not that mean "fix to a cross" or "fixed to a cross?" And what is this but the strongest possible corroboration of our assertion as Christians that Jesus was executed upon a cross-shaped instrument? The answer is that no less than four different Greek words are translated in our Bibles as meaning "crucify" or "crucified," and that not one of the four meant "crucify" or "crucified." The four words in question are the words prospegnumi, anastauroo, sustauroo, and stauroo. "The word prospegnumi, though translated in our Bibles as "crucify" or "crucified," meant to "fix" to or upon, and meant that only. It had no special reference to the affixing of condemned persons either to a stake, pale, or post, or to a tree, or to a cross; and had no more reference to a cross than the English word "fix" has. The word anastauroo was never used by the old Greek writers as meaning other than to impale upon or with a single piece of timber. The word sustauroo does not occur in pre-Christian writings, and only five times in the Bible against the forty-four times of the next word to be dealt with. Being obviously derived in part from the word stauros, which primarily signified a stake or pale which was a single piece of wood and had no cross-bar, sustauroo evidently meant affixion to such a stake or pale. Anyhow there is nothing whatever either in the derivation of the word, or in the context in either of the five instances in which it occurs, to show that what is referred to is affixion to something that was cross-shaped. The word stauroo occurs, as has been said, forty four times; and of the four word in question by far the most frequently. The meaning of this word is therefore of special importance. It is consequently most significant to find, as we do upon investigation, that wherever it occurs in the pre-Christian classics it is used as meaning to impalisade, or stake, or affix to a pale or stake; and has reference, not to crosses, but to single pieces of wood. It seems therefore tolerably clear (1) that the sacred writngs forming the New testament, to the statements of which-as translated for us-we bow down in reverence, do not tell us that Jesus was affixed to a cross-shaped instrument of execution; (2) that the balance of evidence is against the truth of our statements to the effect that the instrument in question was cross-shaped, and our sacred symbol originally a representation of the same; and (3) that we Christians have in bygone days acted, alas! still act, anything but ingenuously in regard to the symbol of the cross. This is not all, however. For if the unfortunate fact that we have in our zeal almost manufactured evidence in favour of the theory that our cross or crosses had it's or their origin in the shape of the instrument of execution to which Jesus was affixed proves anything at all, it proves the need for a work which, like the present one, sets in array the evidence available regarding both the pre-Christian cross and the adoption in later times of a similar symbol as that of the catholic faith." Nor should it be forgotten that the triumph of Christianity was due to the fact that it was a " catholic " faith, and not, like the other faiths followed by the subjects of Rome, and like what Jesus seems to have intended the results of His mission to have been inasmuch as He solemnly declared that he was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and to them alone, the monopoly of a single nation or race. For if Paul, taking his and other visions of Jesus as the long-needed proofs of a future life, had not disregarded the very plain intimations of Jesus to the effect that His mission was to the descendants of Jacob or Israel, and to them alone; if Paul had not withstood Christ's representative, Peter, to the face, and, with unsurpassed zeal, carried out his grand project of proclaiming a non-national and universal religion founded upon appearances of the spirit-form of Jesus, what we call Christianity would not have come into existence. The fact that but for Paul there would have been no catholic faith with followers in every land ruled by Constantine when sole emperor, for that astute monarch to establish as the State Religion of his loosely knit empire, because, on account of its catholicity, that best fitted to hold power as the official faith of a government with world-wide do minions , is worthy of a lasting place in our memory. Nor is the noteworthy fact last mentioned unconnected with the symbol of the cross. For, as will be shown, it is clear that it was because Constantine caused the figure of the cross to become a recognized symbol of his catholic empire, that it became recognised as a symbol of the Catholic faith Not till after Constantine and his Gaulish warriors planted what Eusebius the Bishop of Caesarea and other Christians of the century in question describe as a cross, within the walls of the Eternal City as the symbol of their victory, did Christians ever set on high a cross-shaped trophy of any description. Moreover, but for the fact that, as it happened the triumph of Constantine resulted in that of the Christian Church, we should probably have deemed the cross, if to our minds a representation of the instrument of execution to which Jesus was affixed, as anything but the symbol of Victory we now deem it. This is evident from the fact that the so-called cross of Jesus admittedly fulfilled the purpose for which it was erected at the request of those who sought the death of Jesus. And even according to our Gospels the darkness of defeat over shadowed the scene at Calvary. To put the matter plainly, the victory of Jesus was not a victory over the cross ; for He did not come down from the cross. Nor was it a victory over His enemies ; for what they sought was to get rid of a man whom they deemed an agitator, and their wish was gratified, inasmuch as, thanks to the cross, He troubled them no more. In other words the victory which we ascribe to Jesus did not occur during the gloom which hung like a pall over his native land at the time of His execution, but upon the then approaching Sun-day of the Vernal Equinox, at the coming of the glory of the dawn. For the victory in question, from whatever point of view we may look at it, was not the avoidance of defeat, but its retrieval. And its story is an illustration of the old-world promise, hoary with antiquity and founded upon the coming, ushered in every year by the Pass-over or cross-over of the equator by the sun at the Vernal Equinox, of the bounteous harvests of summer after the dearth of devastating winter ; bidding us ever hope, not indeed for the avoidance of death and therefore of defeat, but for such victory as may happen to lay in survival or resurrection. It is therefore clear that even if we could prove that the instrument of execution to which Jesus was affixed was cross-shaped, it would not necessarily follow that it was as the representation of the cause of His death which we now deem it, that the figure of the cross became our symbol of Life and Victory. In any case honesty demands that we should no longer translate as "cross" a word which at the time our Gospels were written did not necessarily signify something cross-shaped. And it is equally incumbant upon us, from a moral point of view, that we should cease to render as "crucify" or "crucified" words which never bore any such meaning."Barb
June 3, 2014
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KF goes on,
No scholar is better than his facts, logic and assumptions. And in this case, both err, for reasons pointed out.
Which scholars: Vine and Bullinger? What about the others I posted? Are they also all in error? Do you have proof of that?
The text, properly assessed in context is decisive, especially where the key terms in use have a range of possible meanings. Which range has been repeatedly pointed out to you, only to be consistently narrowed without proper response to context. In this case, we know what a patibulum is, and what carrying it meant, and how it was used after being carried to the site of an execution. And, FYI, I have read enough of your posts to see that you have been consistently unresponsive to key relevant evidence; and no, as this is well off topic and actually damaging to the work of this blog, I am not going to do a point by point clip and comment. Please, think again. KF
You’re substituting speculation for facts. I have posted relevant evidence which has gone completely unchallenged. I have posted scriptures as well as works from various scholars. If you disagree with any of that, then show me where and why and how you disagree. And unresponsive? I’ve responded to your posts as well as Mung’s.
lol. Have you actually read any of your posts?
Are you openly admitting that you haven’t read anything I’ve posted?
This is from a Watchtower publication, right? Want to know what tipped me off? The ellipsis. Do you know what an ellipsis is not supposed to do? It’s not supposed to change the meaning of the text. You first brought up Fairbairn and the Imperial Bible-Dictionary in your post @ 38. The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions (“torture stake” in NW) is stau•ros?. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau•ros?], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376. The society claims Fairbairn supports their doctrine when he does not. Even in their own article they admit the meaning changed from what it had originally been in Classical Greek.
Again, the point sails over your head. The fact that the meaning of the word changed is not relevant. What is relevant is what the Bible says. What did the gospel writers mean when they used the term stauros? Did you notice that it stated clearly that the word stauros PROPERLY SIGNIFIED a stake? What does that tell you, if anything? And what about the links I posted above? Read any of them? What did you think, and why? More definitions: STRONGS NT 4716: ???????, ???????, ? (from ?????? (root sta); cf. Latin stauro, English staff (see Skeat, Etymological Dictionary, under the word); Curtius, § 216; Vanicek, p. 1126); 1. an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon). If the word stauros is related to the English word “staff”, does that signify a cross? Or not? More definitions: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Cross: From the base of histemi; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. Self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ -- cross. see GREEK histemi The Classic Greek Dictionary, Greek-English and English-Greek, With an Appendix of Proper and Geographical Names prepared by George Ricker Berry reads under "stauros": "..an upright pale, stake or pole; in plu. a palisade. II. the Cross.(p.648). Note here that although this lexicon seems to give "the Cross" as a meaning for "stauros" it seems rather as a reference than a meaning("the Cross" rather than "a cross")and to that of Jesus Christ. Hence, definition II is suspect, and may only reflect the lexicon's belief that the stauros in the NT was cross-shaped or it may be giving it as a reference, that is, that when we read in the English Bibles "cross" this is from the Greek stauros and no indication it was actually cross-shaped. In its definition 1, though, there is no doubt the meaning of stauros and anything other than that stauros meant more than one piece of wood, whether it was a "pale, stake or pole" is not mentioned and certainly none of which were 'cross-shaped.' This is its meaning in all the Greek classics such as Homer. There is no evidence that the from or shape of the stauros in Jesus Christ's case was any different. The Concordant Literal New Testament with the Keyword Concordance states: "stauros STANDer: cross, an upright stake or pole, without any crosspiece, now, popularly, cross..." also "stauroo cause-STAND, crucify, drive a stake into the ground, fasten on a stake, impale, now by popular usage, crucify, though there was no crosspiece."- pp. 63, 64, Greek-English Keyword Concordance, Concordant Publishing Concern, 1983, 3rd printing of 6th edition of 1976. The book Dual Heritage-The Bible and the British Museum states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stauros] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.” Are all these scholars, concordances, and lexicons in error because they don't openly define "stauros" as cross? Are you openly admitting that the Bible is not as authoritative as other scholarly works? Which ones? And why?
The Greek word for cross, stauros, properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. [But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek speaking countries.] Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole [,and this always remained the most prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always, even then.] If you look at the portion of the definition where they are dealing with the Classical Greek, there is little or no indication that this “stake” was a “torture stake.”
Considering that this was how Romans dealt with criminals, “torture stake” is an apt definition. I find it amazing that you bold your definition of the word after the actual definition of the word. Truly, the cross is an object of extreme veneration.
And look where the JW publication put the period after pole, chopping off even the remainder of the sentence, because it contradicted their doctrine.
Did it contradict the doctrine of the Jewish bibles I cited earlier, both of whom translated “stauros” as stake or execution stake?
Further the article continues, after quoting three forms of crucifixion mentioned by Seneca, the last having the patibulum: There can be no doubt however, that the latter sort was the more common, and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood. The attempted use of this article by the JW’s to support their “torture stake” doctrine is utterly dishonest.
What is also intellectually dishonest is bolding words to bolster your argument. Seneca lived centuries after the gospel writers. Who holds more authority: Seneca or Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—some of whom actually witnessed the execution of Christ?
If I hated you and other Johovah’s Witnesses I would just allow you to continue in your folly.
Or you’d stop posting and following me from thread to thread with little tidbits about what I believe (or don’t believe, as the case may be).Barb
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F/N: As an aid to one and all needing to see what Fairbairn actually says when his words are fairly read in context, kindly cf the page shots laid out here, as a PDF. If you read on down on p. 377 (it is linked), you will see wise and balanced words on how such an object of shame has instead become a symbol of the holiest, and on the importance of not making an idol of such a symbol. Those who have paid attention to the evidence adduced to date will not be surprised to see what this scholar has to say. KFkairosfocus
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Barb:
Your irrational hatred for the Witnesses is really clouding your argument.
If I hated you and other Johovah's Witnesses I would just allow you to continue in your folly.Mung
June 2, 2014
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Barb:
And the Imperial Bible-Dictionary disagrees with this: “The Greek word for cross, [stau•ros?], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
This is from a Watchtower publication, right? Want to know what tipped me off? The ellipsis. Do you know what an ellipsis is not supposed to do? It's not supposed to change the meaning of the text. Barb:
Have you actually read any of my posts?
You first brought up Fairbairn and the Imperial Bible-Dictionary in your post @ 38.
The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions (“torture stake” in NW) is stau·ros?. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·ros?], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.
The society claims Fairbairn supports their doctrine when he does not. Even in their own article they admit the meaning changed from what it had originally been in Classical Greek. Did I read that and respond to it? Yes, I did, in my post @ 50.
In their book, Reasoning From the Scriptures, Jehovah’s Witnesses also reinforce their doctrine with a partial quote from The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (edited by Patrick Fairbairn, 1874) that states the crux “appears to have been originally an upright pole”. In the original text, however, the dictionary continued, “… and this always remained the most prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always, even then.”
So there it is. We both read your posts and we respond to your points and you accuse us of doing neither and of not engaging in proper debate. And readers can see it for themselves: CROSS I suggest going to the single page view and upping the magnification for easier reading. But let's look at the things the JW publication left out.
The Greek word for cross, stauros, properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. [But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek speaking countries.] Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole [,and this always remained the most prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not, however, always, even then.]
If you look at the portion of the definition where they are dealing with the Classical Greek, there is little or no indication that this "stake" was a "torture stake." And look where the JW publication put the period after pole, chopping off even the remainder of the sentence, because it contradicted their doctrine. Further the article continues, after quoting three forms of crucifixion mentioned by Seneca, the last having the patibulum:
There can be no doubt however, that the latter sort was the more common, and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood.
The attempted use of this article by the JW's to support their "torture stake" doctrine is utterly dishonest.Mung
June 2, 2014
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Barb:
Have you actually read any of my posts?
lol. Have you actually read any of your posts?Mung
June 2, 2014
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You did it, Barb. Thanks. It was great to read. And to think my father prevented my mother calling me Simon, for fear I'd be called Simple Simon! That was seventy-three years ago, and it's rightly a popular name now, imo.Axel
June 2, 2014
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Barb: No scholar is better than his facts, logic and assumptions. And in this case, both err, for reasons pointed out. The text, properly assessed in context is decisive, especially where the key terms in use have a range of possible meanings. Which range has been repeatedly pointed out to you, only to be consistently narrowed without proper response to context. In this case, we know what a patibulum is, and what carrying it meant, and how it was used after being carried to the site of an execution. And, FYI, I have read enough of your posts to see that you have been consistently unresponsive to key relevant evidence; and no, as this is well off topic and actually damaging to the work of this blog, I am not going to do a point by point clip and comment. Please, think again. KFkairosfocus
June 2, 2014
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Barb: Do you know whose favourite rhetorical and propaganda stunt was the turnabout accusation? Were I you, I would be very hesitant to use it again, its reputation is that bad.
All I am asking is for you to examine what I posted.
FYI, I took time out, weeks ago, to point you to evidence on language, history, usage, context, texts in C1 report, and wider history that is in fact decisive. Your failure to respond adequately speaks for itself, and has earned the corrective warnings given.
Warnings? Seriously?
I have long since taken time as well to show why Vine and Bullinger went off track. In a nutshell, they went overboard with the classic Protestant complaint on the rise of Catholicism. Yes, there were many problems with Catholicism, and yes, there was some degree of syncretism. But no, that does not equate to everything touched or used or said by Catholics is tainted and to be suspect or discarded.
So you are stating that both W. E. Vine, cited above and Bullinger are not credible scholars? Do I understand you correctly? I would recommend reading The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop if you haven’t already. It’s an interesting read about how pagan symbols were adopted into Christianity and more specifically Catholicism. And again, I state categorically that paganism (a religion unto itself) has nothing to do with Christianity. Jesus himself never stated that Greek philosophy or pagan symbols were to be blended with his teachings.
More specifically, the issue, always, is warrant. And the history of crucifixion in Roman times is not in doubt or under test. Your response to it is. Sadly, insistent grade F.
Wow, I didn’t know I was being graded on posting.
The facts are quite plain. By C1, the cross was a well known judicial sentence of the Roman Empire, tracing to Carthage and beyond. Their particular spin on it was to use the patibulum, the cross-bar [which seems to have prolonged suffering]. The dominant form was the T, which is the simplest way to use the patibulum.
The facts as you state are plain to you. You have not explained why any of the other sources besides Vine and Bullinger are not credible. Remember, the issue relates to how the Bible writers used the term. The history of the cross in pre-Christian times has also been explained above.
However, they also used the t. And sometimes X, Y (tree fork) and I, the last apparently being more associated with military campaigns.
Yes. And the “I” according to many scholars is what he was executed upon.
On the evidence of the NT — the most detailed case passed down — Jesus was flogged [pretty badly] — check.
Side note: have you ever read the JAMA article dealing with Jesus’s death? It appeared under the title “On the Physical Death of Jesus Christ” in the March 1986 issue.
He was forced to carry the patibulum — check. He was so weakened by the flogging that he could not carry it all the way to the execution site where the upright would have been permanently set up. The soldiers grabbed a passerby, forcing him to carry the load — consistent with the known resented praxis of forcing subjects to carry soldiers’ loads a thousand paces [- a mile, Roman sense] . . . hence Jesus on going the second mile.
He was forced to carry a stake or pole. All we know for a fact is that Simon helped him. We do not know the dimensions of what he was carrying or how heavy it was.
Jesus was nailed up, with two malefactors on either HAND, with a charge on a placard over his HEAD. Most consistent with t, but T still possible.
Or consistent with the illustrations posted above, such as the statue in the Louvre, which clearly shows a man being flogged while on a stake. Again, from one of my posts above: the book Das Kreuz und die Kreuzigung (The Cross and the Crucifixion), by Hermann Fulda, states: “Trees were not everywhere available at the places chosen for public execution. So a simple beam was sunk into the ground. On this the outlaws, with hands raised upward and often also with their feet, were bound or nailed.”
You have also been presented with physical calcs on reasonable sizes that immediately points out why carrying the patibulum makes sense [40 - 60+ lb] but not the upright [~ 150 lb easily].
Calculations are speculative at best, as has been pointed out previously.
Against this pattern of evidence, you have persistently insisted on forcing staurus to a narrowed down range of meanings, to stake meaning a single pole.
Based on what scholars have stated for the record. And based on how a rendering of stauros as stake harmonizes with other scriptures cited in this thread. If you wish to discredit Vine and Bullinger, go ahead. But then explain how Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance which renders stauros as stake or pole is also to be discredited. Explain how Fairbairn’s Imperial Bible Dictionary is incorrect in rendering stauros as stake, and explain how and where his research into the term “cross” went off the track.
You consistently fail to reckon with metonymy and with multiple usages and senses that words gain over time. Often, linked to metonymy.
Non sequitur. Multiple usages over time aren’t the issue. The issue is how the gospel writers used the term. The Bible is—and should be—the ultimate authority for Christians. Do you agree or disagree?
And, which have been known to happen with koine greek, which was different from classical. Indeed, formerly there were questions about why NT Greek was so bad. The papyri found in Egypt helped us see what had happened, Greek became the second language of a region and changed as a result. We call the result of that linguistic evolution, Koine Greek.
Koine Greek was the language of the common people. However, the usage of stauros as stake harmonizes with Koine and classical Greek.
Bullinger wrote before that revolution, Vine after it. Both made the error of missing C1 usage in light of context in NT, and both tried to impose etymological roots on a word when it is usage that is pivotal.
And, as has been pointed out, its usage as “stake” or “pole” is fitting. Paul says: “Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake [“a tree,” King James Version].’” (Galatians 3:13) Here Paul quotes Deuteronomy 21:22, 23, which clearly refers to a stake, not a cross.
So, your drumbeat assertion that staurus equals stake to exclusion of cross and parts of crosses, is an error.
And your drumbeat assertion that stauros equals cross doesn’t hold weight, in light of the evidence I’ve posted.
Indeed, in your latest move, you are failing to see the obvious in Fairbairn. Origin of a word does not block later shifts in meaning.
Origin of the word and its usage in the NT is what is important, unless you wish to argue that the Bible isn’t as authoritative as other (secular) sources.
(In our time, observe the sad path of the word gay; kidnapped and held hostage to an ideology. Similarly, there has been a push to redefine marriage, science and so forth, 1984 style. in a happier sense cute moved to have our current meaning, not bow-legged. In 1600, kill meant murder, and slay what we mean by kill, and so forth.)
Word usage changes over time. That still is a non sequitur. We’re dealing with the word’s primary meaning and its usage and translations in the NT.
As of now, frankly, you force me to speak for record; I have no confidence that you will be seriously responsive to evidence or fact, however patiently explained. Please, show me wrong.
Have you actually read any of my posts?Barb
June 2, 2014
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Barb: Do you know whose favourite rhetorical and propaganda stunt was the turnabout accusation? Were I you, I would be very hesitant to use it again, its reputation is that bad. FYI, I took time out, weeks ago, to point you to evidence on language, history, usage, context, texts in C1 report, and wider history that is in fact decisive. Your failure to respond adequately speaks for itself, and has earned the corrective warnings given. I have long since taken time as well to show why Vine and Bullinger went off track. In a nutshell, they went overboard with the classic Protestant complaint on the rise of Catholicism. Yes, there were many problems with Catholicism, and yes, there was some degree of syncretism. But no, that does not equate to everything touched or used or said by Catholics is tainted and to be suspect or discarded. More specifically, the issue, always, is warrant. And the history of crucifixion in Roman times is not in doubt or under test. Your response to it is. Sadly, insistent grade F. The facts are quite plain. By C1, the cross was a well known judicial sentence of the Roman Empire, tracing to Carthage and beyond. Their particular spin on it was to use the patibulum, the cross-bar [which seems to have prolonged suffering]. The dominant form was the T, which is the simplest way to use the patibulum. However, they also used the t. And sometimes X, Y (tree fork) and I, the last apparently being more associated with military campaigns. On the evidence of the NT -- the most detailed case passed down -- Jesus was flogged [pretty badly] -- check. He was forced to carry the patibulum -- check. He was so weakened by the flogging that he could not carry it all the way to the execution site where the upright would have been permanently set up. The soldiers grabbed a passerby, forcing him to carry the load -- consistent with the known resented praxis of forcing subjects to carry soldiers' loads a thousand paces [- a mile, Roman sense] . . . hence Jesus on going the second mile. Jesus was nailed up, with two malefactors on either HAND, with a charge on a placard over his HEAD. Most consistent with t, but T still possible. One last thing, as Mung highlighted, the use of a reed to give him vinegar on a sponge, suggests a fairly tall cross, probably with feet 3 - 4 ft above ground. Not unlikely, as easy to arrange. You have also been presented with physical calcs on reasonable sizes that immediately points out why carrying the patibulum makes sense [40 - 60+ lb] but not the upright [~ 150 lb easily]. Against this pattern of evidence, you have persistently insisted on forcing staurus to a narrowed down range of meanings, to stake meaning a single pole. You consistently fail to reckon with metonymy and with multiple usages and senses that words gain over time. Often, linked to metonymy. And, which have been known to happen with koine greek, which was different from classical. Indeed, formerly there were questions about why NT Greek was so bad. The papyri found in Egypt helped us see what had happened, Greek became the second language of a region and changed as a result. We call the result of that linguistic evolution, Koine Greek. Bullinger wrote before that revolution, Vine after it. Both made the error of missing C1 usage in light of context in NT, and both tried to impose etymological roots on a word when it is usage that is pivotal. So, your drumbeat assertion that staurus equals stake to exclusion of cross and parts of crosses, is an error. Indeed, in your latest move, you are failing to see the obvious in Fairbairn. Origin of a word does not block later shifts in meaning. (In our time, observe the sad path of the word gay; kidnapped and held hostage to an ideology. Similarly, there has been a push to redefine marriage, science and so forth, 1984 style. in a happier sense cute moved to have our current meaning, not bow-legged. In 1600, kill meant murder, and slay what we mean by kill, and so forth.) As of now, frankly, you force me to speak for record; I have no confidence that you will be seriously responsive to evidence or fact, however patiently explained. Please, show me wrong. Please. KFkairosfocus
June 2, 2014
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Axel @ 155:
It sounds like it, Barb. I wonder where Fairbairn got it from? When he asserted that the crux was originally an upright pole, did he mean the original pole was called a ‘crux’, or that the instrument of execution was originally a pole. (If you reply, sweet-pea, please don’t forget the ‘h-n-y’, it would mean a lot to me). I always think of it as a particularly warm and seductive locution of American women.
From his description, it sounds as though he's describing the instrument of execution as a pole. He was a member of the Free Church of Scotland and a theologian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Fairbairn Axel, honey, here's the actual text from the dictionary itself, courtesy of Open Library: https://archive.org/stream/theimperialbible01unknuoft#page/376/mode/2up/search/crossBarb
June 2, 2014
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It sounds like it, Barb. I wonder where Fairbairn got it from? When he asserted that the crux was originally an upright pole, did he mean the original pole was called a 'crux', or that the instrument of execution was originally a pole. (If you reply, sweet-pea, please don't forget the 'h-n-y', it would mean a lot to me). I always think of it as a particularly warm and seductive locution of American women.Axel
June 2, 2014
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