Christian Darwinism

Can God redeem time?

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Here, commenter bornagain77 notes, in response to a discussion of a one- or two-dimensional universe (the latter recently proposed by a  physicist  for our own early universe),

Though I have severe reservations about this ‘theory’, I think the ‘flatlander’ example you alluded to is excellent for illustrating the ‘higher dimensional’ nature of the spiritual realm …

Indeed. Consider Giberson and Collins’ comment on Dembski’s work:

It is abundantly clear that death and suffering had been present for literally billions of years before the appearance of humans. So how could  human sin be responsible for this? This claim collapses and can only be rescued by desperate moves, like the claim that later events can  cause earlier ones. Surprisingly, there are those so eager to make human sin the explanation for all the evils of natural history that they make  this paradoxical claim. William Dembski, for example, make this argument, in The End of Christianity. – Karl W. Giberson and Francis S. Collins, The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions (InterVarsity Press, 2011), pp. 131-32.

A lot comes down to how one thinks about God. I was taught to think of earthly human life as a line proceeding from conception to death, and God as entirely surrounding the line in four dimensions. He can influence the line wherever he thinks good, forward or back. Of course, it all balances in the end.

C.S. Lewis had some similar intuition in The Great Divorce.

Until I encountered Christian Darwinism, quite late in life, I was completely unfamiliar with notions like “God would not interfere” in the affairs of this planet, for some reason or other. It sounded – and still does sound – like “God is so great that he has dispensed with existing.”

Everyone I grew up with always wanted God to interfere or – if a few had lost their faith – it was because they thought he hadn’t interfered when he should have. Generally, people thought God had invented time; otherwise, time would be God, which wasn’t true.

Whatever the defects of a mid-century Canadian upbringing, it did not feature either a silent God or a loud Darwin.

26 Replies to “Can God redeem time?

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    Indeed we are the ‘flatlanders’ when considering reality as a whole, for reality, as far as can be deduced empirically from science, breaks down into three distinct frameworks. These are 1. The highest dimension of the primary ‘transcendent’ framework of God 2. The secondary ‘eternal’ framework, and 3. The bottom rung of the ladder, the one in which we currently live, the ‘temporal’ framework.

    Though I’ve shown the following a few times before, here is the clearest way I know to illustrate the distinctness of the frameworks:

    Reflections on the ‘infinite transcendent information’ framework, as well as on the ‘eternal’ and ‘temporal’ frameworks:

    The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. Yet, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light, its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. Moreover time, as we understand it, would come to a complete stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole ‘time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light’ concept a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light?

    Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY

    ,,,Yet, even though light has this ‘eternal’ attribute in regards to our temporal time, for us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, will only get us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, is concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension, ‘eternal’, inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein – The Einstein Factor – Reader’s Digest

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182

    It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, ‘eternal’, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies:

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light, with the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in very many Near Death Experiences:

    Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

    The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions
    Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer)

    Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – view
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/

    Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, yet, and this is a very big ‘yet’ to take note of; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. Yet, in quantum teleportation of information, the ‘time not passing’, i.e. ‘eternal’, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but is also ‘instantaneously’ achieved in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane – Child Prodigy

    Logic also dictates ‘a decision’ must have been made, by the ‘transcendent, eternal, infinite information’ from the primary timeless (eternal) reality ‘It’ inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse.

    The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being – William Lane Craig – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914

    further notes;

    ,,, And if you throw the fact that quantum wave collapse of the universe is instantaneous to each ‘central’ observer in the universe, I see no problem with ‘the fall’ being retroactive in time for us flatlanders;,,,, i.e. The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space, whereas the space-time of General Relativity is merely 4-Dimensional!!

    etc.. etc..

  2. 2
    Ilion says:

    I sometimes wonder whether the NT statement that “God is Light” is more like the statement that “God is Love” than not … that is, whether is it saying something deeper than what might be said with a mere touching metaphor.

  3. 3
    Ilion says:

    Concerning “traveling at the speed of light,” I wonder — given relativity — why it may not be the “traveler” who is considered “stationary” and the earth which is considered “moving away from him.”

  4. 4
    bornagain77 says:

    ilion you state;

    Concerning “traveling at the speed of light,” I wonder — given relativity — why it may not be the “traveler” who is considered “stationary” and the earth which is considered “moving away from him.”

    ,, The ‘eternal’ speed of light framework is over and above the temporal framework, yet that ‘higher dimensionality’ does not translate into a ‘complete transcendence’ of the temporal framework. A complete transcendence as is demonstrated by Quantum Information over and above both the eternal and temporal frameworks.

    notes;

    Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page
    Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,”
    http://www.research.ibm.com/qu.....portation/

    The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation:

    Of note: An ion is an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge.

    Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups
    Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,,
    http://www.rsc.org/chemistrywo.....ammeup.asp

    Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009
    Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,,
    “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....1769/posts

    also of note;

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) — Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.
    http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/fa.....lPSA2K.pdf

    Single photons to soak up data:
    Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201

    3D to 4D shift – Carl Sagan – video with notes
    Excerpt from Notes: The state-space of quantum mechanics is an infinite-dimensional function space.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VS1mwEV9wA

    further note;

    The Failure Of Local Realism – Materialism – Alain Aspect – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145

    Double Slit Experiment – Explained By Prof Anton Zeilinger – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6101627/

  5. 5
    paragwinn says:

    “I was taught to think of earthly human life as a line proceeding from conception to death, and God as entirely surrounding the line in four dimensions. He can influence the line wherever he thinks good, forward or back.”

    If that is true, then wouldnt natural and recorded history both become unreliable? To say that something had happened and then for God to reach back and change it would undermine any reliability demonstrated be either kind of history.

  6. 6
    bornagain77 says:

    paragwinn, you state;

    ‘If that is true, then wouldnt natural and recorded history both become unreliable? To say that something had happened and then for God to reach back and change it would undermine any reliability demonstrated be either kind of history.’

    I really wouldn’t say that God reached back and changed history as much as I think it would be a bit better to say that we ‘chose’ an ‘alternate history’ for ourselves. A ‘alternate history’ in a universe where it was ‘natural’ to die. As well, remember that God had foreknowledge that we would chose death over life,

    1 Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    ,, and also remember that the Garden of Eden was a ‘special’ place that was ‘set apart’ from the rest of creation;

    Genesis 3:24
    ,,,”So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    ,,,William Dembski, does this whole line of thought a lot more justice than I can, in this book;

    The End of Christianity: Finding a Good God in an Evil World [Hardcover]
    http://www.amazon.com/End-Chri.....0805427430

    You may read an excerpt of the book here to see how well he has reconciled this ‘problem of theodicy’;

    The End of Christianity: Finding a Good God in an Evil World
    http://www.designinference.com.....of_xty.pdf

  7. 7
    Mung says:

    I think God cannot redeem time, because time is not in need of redemption.

    God can however redeem man, because man is in need of redemption.

    I suppose the $64,000 question (how much is that in today’s dollars?) is why is man in need of redemption?

    But is it man alone that needs redemption?

  8. 8
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, 1. why is man in need of redemption?

    Sin.

    Romans 6:23
    ‘For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.’

    2. is it man alone that needs redemption?

    No.

    ,,,according to esteemed British mathematical physicist Roger Penrose (1931-present), the odds of one particular individual constant, the ‘original phase-space volume’ of the universe, required such precision that the “Creator’s aim must have been to an accuracy of 1 part in 10^10^123”. This number is gargantuan. If this number were written out in its entirety, 1 with 10^123 zeros to the right, it could not be written on a piece of paper the size of the entire visible universe, even if a number were written down on each sub-atomic particle in the entire universe, since the universe only has 10^80 sub-atomic particles in it.

    Roger Penrose discusses initial entropy of the universe. – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhGdVMBk6Zo

    The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose
    Excerpt: “The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the “source” of the Second Law (Entropy).”

    How special was the big bang? – Roger Penrose
    Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator’s aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123.
    (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 – 1989)
    http://www.ws5.com/Penrose/

    The Future of the Universe
    Excerpt: After all the black holes have evaporated, (and after all the ordinary matter made of protons has disintegrated, if protons are unstable), the universe will be nearly empty. Photons, neutrinos, electrons and positrons will fly from place to place, hardly ever encountering each other. It will be cold, and dark, and there is no known process which will ever change things. — Not a happy ending.
    http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/p.....uture.html

    Psalm 102:25-27
    Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; Yes, they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will change them, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will have no end.

    Big Rip
    Excerpt: The Big Rip is a cosmological hypothesis first published in 2003, about the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the matter of universe, from stars and galaxies to atoms and subatomic particles, are progressively torn apart by the expansion of the universe at a certain time in the future. Theoretically, the scale factor of the universe becomes infinite at a finite time in the future.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rip

    Thermodynamic Argument Against Evolution – Thomas Kindell – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4168488

    Romans 8:18-21
    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

    ————-

    further note;

    A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler
    Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically.
    http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847

    The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355

    Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Pictures, Articles and Videos
    https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg

    ,,, Basically God, in His atoning sacrifice through Christ’s death on the Cross, has freely given us another chance to choose life over death. Myself, it is a no brainer to choose the ‘eternal’ life, that He has freely offered, over death,,,, there is more than sufficient evidence to see, and know, that Christ defeated death, besides the personal ‘little’ miracles I’ve seen in my life.

  9. 9
    Mung says:

    hi ba77,

    You start with a scripture verse that doesn’t mention redemption, and go from there to non-biblical sources that also fail to speak of redemption.

    So what exactly does need redemption, and why? And more to the point of the OP, is TIME in need of redemption?

    Can God redeem something not in need of redemption?

  10. 10
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, the verse I quoted is one of the main verses, that I know of, for the need for the redemption of man. Here is another,

    Romans 3:23
    for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    i.e.,, We are all doomed to death because of our sin! Do you not understand this basic Biblical fact of human nature and that all men have sinned and are therefore worthy of death in the eyes of the perfect justice of God,,, and therefore need to be redeemed from sin and death precisely because of that characteristic???? That’s basic Christian Theology 101 mung. Perhaps this neat little video will bring the point home for you.

    G.O.S.P.E.L – Poetry Slam
    http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KLDGLPNX

    ,, as far as the OP is concerned, the clear intent of Ms. O’Leary, I personally believe, is to point out that God has complete dominion over time. He created time, space, matter, and energy in the first place, as well as ever presently SUSTAINS THEM, which is a fact which is clearly shown through quantum mechanics!!!,, Thus Collins and Gibersons objection in the OP is uninformed as to scripture AND science! ,,, ,,, I further answered the question you asked of ‘what else’ needs ‘redemption’, and The verses and cites that I listed show that this universe, left to its own present course without God’s intervention, is doomed to heat death through entropic decay. I would say that that is a fairly large warrant for ‘redemption’ to a optimal state!,,,

  11. 11
    Ilion says:

    Well, Mung, the Bible asserts that *all* Creation is groaning under the weight of sin. And, since time is a part of the Creation, it would seem that even time needs to be redeemed.

  12. 12
    Mung says:

    Did all of creation need to be redeemed before the fall, or only after the fall? Does the time before the fall also need to be redeemed?

    Did a present act, in the garden of eden, affect all the past as well as the future?

    …and God as entirely surrounding the line in four dimensions. He can influence the line wherever he thinks good, forward or back.

    But can the actions of man?

    Or is the argument that God looked at what man had done, and went both backward in time and forward in time and (don’t take that too literally) and changed the essence of the creation?

    And what of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? In what sense did those events affect what was wrought by Adam’s sin?

  13. 13
    Mung says:

    as far as the OP is concerned, the clear intent of Ms. O’Leary, I personally believe, is to point out that God has complete dominion over time. He created time, space, matter, and energy in the first place, as well as ever presently SUSTAINS THEM,

    ok, I can accept that. But then why bring the issue of redemption into it?

    The verses and cites that I listed show that this universe, left to its own present course without God’s intervention, is doomed to heat death through entropic decay.

    In one breath you assert that God sustains it all, and in the next you assert that unless God steps in and stops it the universe is doomed to heat death.

    Do you not see the contradiction?

    The universe is as it is because that is the way God wills it to be at every moment, and that is the way it has always been and always will be.

    There is no such thing as an interventionist God. Not a Christian one anyways.

  14. 14
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, the science itself is what is saying that God is necessary for the sustaining of the universe;

    “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.”
    Max Planck – The Father Of Quantum Mechanics – Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944)(Of Note: Max Planck was a devout Christian, which is not surprising when you realize practically every, if not every, founder of each major branch of modern science also ‘just so happened’ to have a deep Christian connection.)
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Max_Planck

    etc.. etc.. etc..

    Colossians 1:17
    “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

    ,,,As to the philosophical concern as to why God would sustain a universe that is itself headed for heat death, I maintain that God has His own purposes for allowing a ‘decaying’ universe as such. The most reasonable purpose that I’ve heard of, for why this is, is that God’s ultimate purpose for allowing this universe is to deal with evil once and for all effectively. This is a deep philosophical question that has a long history. I listed one book by Dr. Dembski already, here is another excellent resource that deals with this complicated question fairly simply and directly;

    If God, Why Evil? (Norman Geisler)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtOOPaNmJFY

  15. 15
    bornagain77 says:

    mung you state;

    ‘There is no such thing as an interventionist God. Not a Christian one anyways.’

    Actually mung, the reason I’m a Christian in the first place is that the Christian God I called out to, in a moment of despair in my life, reached down and ‘intervened’ in my life, with a ‘little miracle’, to show in no uncertain terms that he had compassion on me.

  16. 16
    Mung says:

    Whatever BA.

    You think he reached in and changed where some molecules in your brain were headed and made them go somewhere else and that’s why you’re now a believer?

    Can you try more not to understand please? We were talking about the physical universe. If you think the spiritual can be explained by the physical we have a real problem.

  17. 17
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung you ask;

    ‘You think he reached in and changed where some molecules in your brain were headed and made them go somewhere else and that’s why you’re now a believer?’

    You mean something like this mung???

    John Cleese – The Scientists – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M-vnmejwXo

    ,,, No Mung, I mean that God ‘intervened’ in the physical universe in a ‘personal’ way. It was not a ‘warm fuzzy’ feeling. Moreover I’ve seen God directly ‘intervene’ in the physical universe in the presence of a few hundred other witnesses;

    Miracle – One Easter Sunday Morning
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995314/

    ,,, And to tell you the truth mung, I was somewhat uncomfortable with all of this until I realized that there was nothing in quantum mechanics that precluded miracles from happening.

  18. 18
    Ilion says:

    Mung:Did all of creation need to be redeemed before the fall, or only after the fall? Does the time before the fall also need to be redeemed?
    ….
    And what of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? In what sense did those events affect what was wrought by Adam’s sin?

    Do the human beings who lived and died before the Resurrection need to be redeemed? *Can* God redeem them?

    Don’t make such an absolute of time.

  19. 19
    Mung says:

    Don’t make such an absolute of time.

    I can happily report that I am not one of those who are just counting the days until Jesus comes back and fixes everything he forgot or failed to fix the first time around.

    Happy Easter!

  20. 20
    bornagain77 says:

    mung you state;

    ‘I can happily report that I am not one of those who are just counting the days until Jesus comes back and fixes everything he forgot or failed to fix the first time around.’

    I’d say Jesus defeating death was a pretty good go for round one mung! I sure wouldn’t want to be in the ring opposing Him when He comes back for round two!!!

  21. 21
    Mung says:

    I’d say Jesus defeating death was a pretty good go for round one mung! I sure wouldn’t want to be in the ring opposing Him when He comes back for round two!!!

    hi BA,

    According to Revelation, death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

    So what’s left?

    A round two implies that there was no knockout in round one. Given what Jesus accomplished in round one, what need is there for a round two?

    When Jesus said, “It is finished,” did he only mean that round one was finished?

  22. 22
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung, you do know that Revelation refers to the second coming don’t you? Mung as with the other thread you are confusing scriptures all over the place, and it is clear you have no firm foundation in scripture,,, to start understanding, Mung, perhaps you need to prayerfully investigate the evidence for Christ’s resurrection for yourself, Then perhaps all the other pieces will fall into place for you. Here Mung, this may pique your interest;

    Shroud Of Turin’s Unique 3 Dimensionality – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182

  23. 23
    bornagain77 says:

    Mung here is a blog by a fairly regular contributor here on UD named JonathanM, he outlines some of the evidence for the resurrection;

    Evidence For The Resurrection
    http://jonathanmclatchie.wordp.....urrection/

  24. 24
    Mung says:

    Thanks BA.

    I affirm the historical event of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In case there was any doubt.

    Jesus Christ was crucified, died, was buried, and rose from the grave in a manner which left no body in the tomb. (I don’t believe his body was stolen, or misplaced, or rotted, or any of that other nonsense that attempt to affirm that the resurrection did not involve the body that was buried.)

    Hsppy Easter!

  25. 25
    Mung says:

    p.s. And I don’t need no stinking shroud.

  26. 26
    Mung says:

    Hi BA

    Mung, you do know that Revelation refers to the second coming don’t you?

    That’s probably a reasonable interpretation, even though the book of Revelation itself does not make that claim. The term itself comes from the book of Hebrews.

    So in the book of Revelation, what is the first mention of this “second coming”?

    Hint: It’s not the passage where the guy is on a horse with a sword coming out of his mouth with his robes drenched with blood.

    God save the literalists.

    When does the author of the book of Revelation state the events it depicts will come to past?

    Mung as with the other thread you are confusing scriptures all over the place, and it is clear you have no firm foundation in scripture

    Consider, for a moment, that I have a solid background in Scripture and have studied and contemplated these things for years.

    I consider myself to be a “born again” Christian. I can even state the date of my conversion.

    I consider myself to be an orthodox Christian, though no doubt others would disagree, lol.

    However, if you’d like to know a bit more about where I am coming from, I offer you the following book:
    The Last Days According to Jesus

    Do you know who R.C. Sproul is?

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