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From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

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Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
VL, Q, et al, computationalism extends not only to digital machines but to analogue ones which are dynamic stochastic causal systems that play out in effect mathematical operations using electrical, mechanical, chemical or other components. Such include wetware, electrochemical neural networks such as brains. Even old fashioned slide rules are analogue computers, as are ball and disk integrator based gunlaying machines or the like. The now ubiquitous operational amplifier, op amp for short, was developed to build electronic analogue computers, my favourite op amp ckt being the logging amp, and I cut my eyeteeth on Clayton. This is the root of Haldane's telling observation on the difference between chemical and logical soundness. KF PS, for record precisely because it is persistently side stepped the better to proceed on preferred but fallacy laden trains of thought, Haldane:
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
That record is over 90 years old and it still speaks tellingly.kairosfocus
October 18, 2022
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Q, the Weak Argument Correctives have in page anchors listed in the table of contents. KFkairosfocus
October 18, 2022
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DD, if one has set up crooked ideological yardsticks then what is straight or upright will never pass the test of conformity to crookedness. Also, other particular forms of crookedness will not fit so it is the highest form of divide and rule power agendas to lock in a particular brand of crookedness into a community or institution they dominate. The marks of this sad state are now widespread. KF PS, my major intervention in this thread was to give an outline answer as to what ontology and epistemology are and why they are truly central to serious thought. A moment's investigation would suffice to show that that summary is correct. That you choose instead to try to personalise, polarise and dismiss speaks volumes on a fundamentally irresponsible and trollish approach on your part. For record, when there are deep disagreements on general, policy and technical subjects, it is highly likely that the roots lie in core philosophy, metaphysics (including ontology) [in effect critical analysis of worldviews focussed on what is real], logic, epistemology, axiology [including ethics and aesthetics], etc. Making a basic effort to appreciate such topics will repay serious dividends. PPS, for record, my intervention:
ONTOLOGY: the logic of being, or expanded, [study of] logic of [the nature of] being, an aspect of metaphysics, philosophical study of grand reality. Farlex Trivia Dictionary has a useful summary: “Ontology is the branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature or essence of being or existence, the opposite of phenomenology, the science of phenomena.” (Contrast what is vs what appears to be.) Thus of course the approach of using possible worlds and partitioning: impossible vs possible of being, and of the latter, contingent vs necessary being. The latter are part of the fabric for any world to exist. Ponder a suggested world where distinction, thus two-ness does not exist or begins or ceases; already once we have a distinct suggested world say s, there is, necessarily distinction s vs NOT-s. This can be shown to lie at the root of mathematics, considered as [the study of] the logic of structure and quantity. EPISTEMOLOGY: philosophical study of knowledge and closely related issues such as warrant/justification of beliefs. Revolutionised sixty years ago by Gettier counter examples to knowledge is justified, true belief and the dust has not settled. This is why I have put up reasons for taking weak, scientific and common good sense form knowledge as warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. one of the subtleties involved, is that beliefs true by luck or accident are unreliable which directly connects to how many Gettier cases and grue/bleen etc work. As the label says, right there on the tin, FYI. Obviously, fundamental and as phil is about, hard, fundamental questions. If they were easy, they would not be in this dept.
PPPS, my other main intervention has been to point out that responsible, rational freedom is pivotal to reasoning, warranting, knowing. For, if we are reduced to dynamic-stochastic entities driven and controlled by blind forces claimed reasoning, warrant and knowledge lose all credibility. Reppert has been particularly telling on this point, which of course cuts across the agendas of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers, who in the end are trying to have their cakes and eat them:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
We can be sure that if there were a cogent, non self referentially incoherent reply, it would long since have been trumpeted all over the internet. The evasions, side tracks, strawman fallacies and personal attacks we see instead are actually backhanded confession by projections to the despised other. Such is the sad state of the life of the mind in our day that many imagine they can freely, publicly resort to such Alinsky, rules for radicals guttersnipe tactics and get away with it.kairosfocus
October 18, 2022
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I find your argument to be useless. Of course, you claim otherwise. But alas, without empirics to settle the matter, that is the nature of the beast.I find your argument to be useless. Of course, you claim otherwise. But alas, without empirics to settle the matter, that is the nature of the beast.
Run the flags up! Break out the champagne! BA77 makes a point I agree with. Yes, BA77, There is no empirical support for any position argued in this thread on free will, determinism and consciousness. It’s a free choice for us all to take whatever position makes us happy.Alan Fox
October 18, 2022
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BTW apologies to Viola Lee. I have just glanced through the long thread above. I had previously only dipped in when "recent comments" caught my attention. Much thoughtful content has been missed! I didn't find anything I immediately needed to contradict and my head is still nodding. Used to comment at ISCID and ARN? Me too, back in the 2,000s. How much has changed since? Hard to say as both sites have disappeared into oblivionAlan Fox
October 18, 2022
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DD:, "My argument is not based on empirical results.,," And hence my critique that your argument is useless as far as science is concerned and is somewhere alongside arguing about ‘how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?’ Without any outside way to empirically verify or falsify your philosophical claims, you have an easy game of it and you can always just sit back and claim that whomever has not refuted your argument. Your argument, without the outside arbiter of empirics, boils down to 'he says, she says'. In fact, I tried to put a little empirical meat on the bones of your argument, like seeing what apriori beliefs about God a child may be born with, to see where your argument went and found that your argument is at least highly questionable if not outright false. But you quickly backed your argument off of even that minimum amount of empirical critique, apparently in order to avoid falsification. I found it all to be very disingenuous on your part So again, I find your argument to be useless. Of course, you claim otherwise. But alas, without empirics to settle the matter, that is the nature of the beast.bornagain77
October 18, 2022
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You forgot to compliment Alan Fox on his brilliant rebuttal that consciousness indeed has a physical origin due to, among other things, the fact that “brains are not static.”
Just to correct Querius on one thing he got wrong. Alan Fox's current position is that "consciousness" is incoherent as a concept. There is certainly (heh) no such thing as a separate entity, and (Glasgow scale excluded) no way to measure or compare it. Very often I see it brought up as binary. "This robot is very clever but it is not conscious". I find substituting the word "awareness" for "consciousness" works better to avoid misunderstandings. How aware an entity is of reality and its relationship with reality does not need awareness to have separate existence, it is simply a property of a sentient entity.Alan Fox
October 18, 2022
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DD I have some questions, not about the validity of your post at 629, I have no problem with your logic I would like to explore briefly point 5 at the moment “5) In order for P to have freely chosen R, P must have reason(s) R’ for that choice.” Correct me if I am wrong. This sorta jives with Edwards which I quoted upstream somewhere, “the will does not determine itself, it is not the “determiner determiner at the same time and same relationship” Circling back to 5 ( which sorta is giving me a charlie horse between the ears) I understand you to say P must have a reason to make a free choice . In order to have that particular reason (pr1)there must be a reason for that particular reason (pr2 ) Pr2 precedes (pr1) and thus this (pr2) was not chosen by P therefore free choice is impossible. Have I botched that up to much? Is my understanding of 5 at least somewhere in the ball park? Vividvividbleau
October 18, 2022
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BA,
Dogdoc, to be clear, I found your argument to be so philosophically ‘fuzzy’ as to be beyond empirical critique.
Your counter-argument is itself far too vague to address. But I hope you don't believe that all truths must be verified by empirical investigation - is that your point? If so, you may need to acquaint yourself with the well-known problems with verificationism.
In a word, I found your argument to be “useless” as far as science itself is concerned.
My argument is not based on empirical results. Again, you seem to be of the opinion that all meaningful ideas must be adjudicated via empirical verification. Is that your position?
You may repeatedly declare that no one has refuted your argument, (and although I generously gave you a benefit of a doubt and said that your philosophical argument may, or may not, have some merit), your ‘philosophical’ argument ranks, as far as I can tell, somewhere alongside arguing about ‘how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?’
If you're right, you should be able to look at my stepwise formulation @629 and show exactly which of those statements are too "fuzzy" to evaluate. Care to try?
Again, and I am certainly not a deep philosopher, but, and as far as I can tell, your argument is useless.
You needn't proclaim your lack of philosophical sophistication. The fact that you think simply declaring an argument to be "useless" constitutes a rebuttal more than suffices.dogdoc
October 17, 2022
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Dogdoc, to be clear, I found your argument to be so philosophically 'fuzzy' as to be beyond empirical critique. In a word, I found your argument to be "useless" as far as science itself is concerned. You may repeatedly declare that no one has refuted your argument, (and although I generously gave you a benefit of a doubt and said that your philosophical argument may, or may not, have some merit), your 'philosophical' argument ranks, as far as I can tell, somewhere alongside arguing about 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' Again, and I am certainly not a deep philosopher, but, and as far as I can tell, your argument is useless. Put some empirical meat on the bones and I might change my tune. In short, I agree with Querius overall sentiment at post 781. Your argument is big waste of time as far as I can tell.bornagain77
October 17, 2022
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Querius,
Just find some philosophical issue that will create the most chaos in the forum and laugh at how far off the topic you can get.
Free will was brought up in the third post of this thread, by BA. It has been debated endlessly on this site by others, because it is at the heart of so-called Intelligent Design Theory. You are perhaps projecting what you might want to do, trolling some site just for laughs. I however am a serious lifelong student of science and philosophy, and I love debating big ideas - like free will.
Then announce that no one has any counter-argument to whatever you say.
People have posted a number of counter-arguments of course, and here is what happened: BA tried a few atttacks based on his unsupported and false assumptions about what "isms" I had allegiance to, but finally acknowledged in @325 that while my ideas might have merit he wasn't interested in debating them. Viola Lee argued that my conclusion was too strong, and that there was still a way to salvage a meaningful notion of freedom, but did not, as I see it, dispute the logic of my argument. Origenes tried a number of different counter-arguments, but simply stopped posting after I rebutted each one. PaV unfortunately was unable to grasp my argument. As for KF, I made an effort to understand what he was arguing, but most of it was incomprehensible word salad, and the portion that seemed coherent had nothing at all to do with what I was arguing.
You forgot to compliment Alan Fox...
Why would you argue with me about something that Alan had posted? I suggest you debate him on the matter. Again, you really were hilariously wrong about my argument; every idea you attributed to me was virtually the opposite of my position. But once again, I encourage you to attempt a rebuttal of my argument! It's laid out quite simply @629. My argument shows that free choice is impossible, something I'm sure you disagree with! Since you seem to have nothing but the highest regard for your own intellect and the most virulent disdain for mine, it should be simple for you to refute my argument with perfect clarity, specificity, and force. I look forward to your brilliant insights, where you show exactly where I go wrong, and can finally lay this argument to rest! (hint: calling something a non sequitur without explanation does not constitute an argument, nor does assuming that I belong to some reviled group - atheism, materialism, naturalism, evolutionism, bokononism, what have you - somehow refute my argument. You actually have to show what the problem is with my argument.)dogdoc
October 17, 2022
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Dogdoc @780,
Gosh, this Querius is certainly cluttering up the thread with off-topic posts, right? Wish he’d take that elsewhere hahahaha.
No problem. Feel free to post any comments on any subject, completely ignoring the original post. Just find some philosophical issue that will create the most chaos in the forum and laugh at how far off the topic you can get. Then announce that no one has any counter-argument to whatever you say. You forgot to compliment Alan Fox on his brilliant rebuttal that consciousness indeed has a physical origin due to, among other things, the fact that "brains are not static." Hope you have fun with your dog and fox show demonstrating How Infinity Threatens Cosmology by posting an infinite number of non sequiturs. -QQuerius
October 17, 2022
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Gosh, this Querius is certainly cluttering up the thread with off-topic posts, right? Wish he'd take that elsewhere hahahaha. Alan, Anyway, apparently nobody here has any counter-argument about free will that they're brave enough to post - I suppose that's as much of a concession as anyone here is likely to grant :-) So, moving on, wrt consciousness: When I read Dennett, I can't argue against him. He's such an incredibly compelling expositor that for the next few minutes I believe he's right. But then I remember: his view hinges on the notion that it is language that gives us the illusion of consciousness. He once said in a panel (I can't find the video!) that because of that, a word processor is closer to a conscious entity than a dog is. At that moment I realized that in no possible world can I believe anything of the sort; if dogs aren't conscious then my world is incomprehensible (and the problem of other minds is utterly intractable).dogdoc
October 17, 2022
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What are you saying, Querius?Alan Fox
October 17, 2022
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Alan Fox, And now substituting ships for brain, we get the following equivalent of your explanation on the physics of naval engineering as: • Ships are not static. • Ships require a vast amount of energy to function. • Tides and currents are constantly changing and large waves are constantly challenging ships along vast distances and carrying vast quantities of cargo. • Briefly, you are overlooking the energetic component of ships. • Ships don’t just use matter, they also use energy (and gravity). No, I'm not saying that consciousness is like computers or ships. -QQuerius
October 17, 2022
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Kairosfocus @770,
Q. there is a problem, as there is a whole section of this site that addresses weak arguments that keep being raised.
Yes. And they repeatedly emerge in completely different topics such as “How Infinity Threatens Cosmology” for example.
Objectors often insist on acting as though they are not there. If one argues in brief, it is twisted into pretzels to play strawman tactics.
Is there a way to link specifically to objections listed under Put a Sock in It? This would save endless repetitions with a “We’ve already addressed this issue: please read this link.”
Lay out in more detail and it is disregarded as too long to bother or even incomprehensible [from people who often refuse to do worldviews homework]. Then, they demand authoritative sources. Quote in brief or with ellipses and one is accused of selective, out of context quoting. Take in more content and it is a too long to bother read.
Agreed. And after one provides the homework, objectors simply wave off such responses as irrelevant, already refuted, or whatever excuse comes to them at the moment. I’m still tempted to create a trollbot with all the typical Browbeats and Blowoffs(tm) that we typically encounter.
Then there are the ad hominems.
Yes, but I actually find these very useful! They indicate when you’ve won the argument.
And more, this sustained pattern is part of why I have put the modified JoHari on the table to move on to declaring knowledge independence. KF
I’m afraid I don’t understand how the Johari window would help . . . or am I misunderstanding something? Thanks, -QQuerius
October 17, 2022
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Here you agree with one of my philosophical heros, Dan Dennett, but you do disagree with me.
That does seem to be the nub of it. Dennett has persuaded me (he pushed at an open door) that philosophical consciousness is an incoherent concept.Alan Fox
October 17, 2022
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@ Querius Not sure what point you are making. Human brains are like computers? Human brains are not like computers? To make my position clear, I have no idea how human brains function , how we think. We can approach it as a first person problem, thinking about how we think... Or we can approach it as a third-person problem, using all that tools of neuroscience. Or we can combine approaches. Whatever we do, we can't breach the barrier that no sentient entity can understand anything as complex as itself. Computers are a pale shadow of and a counter-productive analogy for the complexity involved in the functioning of the human brain.Alan Fox
October 17, 2022
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Alan Fox @771, So, your answer to the physics (and physical chemistry) of consciousness is: • Brains are not static. • The human brain requires a vast amount of energy to function. • Neurons grow and die, new synaptic connections form and break, any one neuron can be in physical contact with thousands of others, neurons are sending and receiving impulses at varying rates and vast quantities. • Briefly, you are overlooking the energetic component of brain activity. • There is not just matter in this universe, there is also energy (and gravity). Now substituting computer for brain, we get the following equivalent of your explanation on the physics of computer operation as: • Computers are not static. • The computer requires a vast amount of energy to function (actually, it’s only about 20 Watts) • Software constantly changes and new impulses are constantly loading up registers and travelling along buses at an extremely fast clock rate and in vast quantities. • Briefly, you are overlooking the energetic component of computers. • Computers don’t just use matter, they also use energy (and gravity). Sigh. -QQuerius
October 17, 2022
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Alan,
DD: Physicalism or naturalism actually means “All reality is nothing but what we currently know about reality”, which is not a reasonable stance because we clearly do not understand what consciousness is. AF: We are, as far as I understand your comment, in agreement apart from the part I quote in this comment.
In 1800, the term "materialism" referred to idea that "only the physical universe and laws of nature exist". But at that time, the "laws of nature" were basically Newtonian physics, and the ontology was "atoms in the void". When electromagnetic fields were discovered and their properties formally understood, they were outside of what was previously thought to exist. Did that make them "supernatural"? No, but the definition of what was "natural" was changed, expanded. The beginning of the 20th century saw a huge revolution regarding much of our understanding of the physical world, again changing the definition of what was "natural" or "physical". So, the terms "physicalism" or "naturalism" change as we make new discoveries, and that's why I say what they really refer to is what we currently know.
In fact, I am convinced there is a physical limit to our understanding... Does that make me a mysterian?
Welcome to the club, you'll be getting your membership card and starter kit in the mail.
ETA Where I disagree is that consciousness is not, philosophically, a valid concept. There is nothing to explain, or if you are a dualist, nothing anyone can explain.
Ah, I see. Here you agree with one of my philosophical heros, Dan Dennett, but you do disagree with me. I believe that consciousness cries out for an explanation, that any understanding of the world that doesn't incorporate it is fundamentally incomplete, and... there is very little hope we can ever explain it.dogdoc
October 17, 2022
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Dogdoc:
Physicalism or naturalism actually means “All reality is nothing but what we currently know about reality”, which is not a reasonable stance because we clearly do not understand what consciousness is.
We are, as far as I understand your comment, in agreement apart from the part I quote in this comment. I don't know who first came up with the analogy of human understanding being perhaps like ants on a New York sidewalk, scurrying and making a home under a paving slab, scavenging food that lies all around, while having no idea the Empire State Building towers above them. Sure, what humans know is limited by what our collective instrument-enhanced senses can tell us and what our collective intellect and shared ideas can model. In fact, I am convinced there is a physical limit to our understanding which can only change at an evolutionary rate. Whether there is more to understand can only be answered by beings capable of understanding more than we do. Does that make me a mysterian? ETA Where I disagree is that consciousness is not, philosophically, a valid concept. There is nothing to explain, or if you are a dualist, nothing anyone can explain.Alan Fox
October 17, 2022
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Querius:
I still cannot imagine how physics can explain consciousness as an undiscovered property of matter.
As Dogdoc points out, you attack a strawman. Brains are not static. The human brain requires a vast amount of energy to function. Neurons grow and die, new synaptic connections form and break, any one neuron can be in physical contact with thousands of others, neurons are sending and receiving impulses at varying rates and vast quantities. Briefly, you are overlooking the energetic component of brain activity. There is not just matter in this universe, there is also energy (and gravity).Alan Fox
October 17, 2022
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Q. there is a problem, as there is a whole section of this site that addresses weak arguments that keep being raised. Objectors often insist on acting as though they are not there. If one argues in brief, it is twisted into pretzels to p;lay strawman tactics. Lay out in more detail and it is disregarded as too long to bother or even incomprehensible [from people who often refuse to do worldviews homework]. Then, they demand authoritative sources. Quote in brief or with ellipses and one is accused of selective, out of context quoting. Take in more content and it is a too long to bother read. Then there are the ad hominems. And more, this sustained pattern is part of why I have put the modified JoHari on the table to move on to declaring knowledge independence. KFkairosfocus
October 16, 2022
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DD, well do you know that Lewontin let the cat out of the bag on a huge ideological imposition by power class problem. Worse, the ideology is inherently self referentially incoherent in many ways and self defeating as say Haldane pointed out nigh on 100 years since. The evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers are failed on merits but that does not mean they cannot gain power and seek to entrench it, suppressing alternatives. And many examples of such oppressive power behaviour can be cited, as Lewontin hinted at, Rosenberg simply underscores the point. That's so whether or not you are inclined to acknowledge or even simply pause, read and ponder what is on the table from significant sources. KFkairosfocus
October 16, 2022
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AF, perhaps, we should ponder why you find the summaries difficult to grasp, as they are in fact loaded with worlds of meaning and even imply whole programmes of investigation and analysis. It may be, that they are difficult or unfamiliar concepts, but that is the nature of phil, the dept of hard questions. That we need to clarify possibilities of being and that this may go beyond the commonplace is almost obvious. Notice, the application in outline to foundations of mathematics and to the universal utility of a core of math tied to the law of identity that allows us to define 0, 1, 2 thence N,Z,Q,R,C,R*, space, structures, relationships, quantities, entities etc embedded in any possible world, thus of universal applicability. The question of how we can responsibly claim to know is just as central and in fact is expressed in the same case, and much more. KF PS, R* brings infinity into math, both the transfinite and infinitesimals, allowing us to profitably discuss such, taming some key pathologies. The infinitesimal is implicitly or explicitly present in calculus and calculus loaded concepts such as instantaneous velocity, acceleration, momentum etc. The concept of an implicitly or explicitly transfinite past of years can be addressed in this context of R* and the answer is an actually transfinite causal-temporal, thermodynamically constrained past measurable in say successive years poses an infeasible supertask, transfinite traversal in finite stage steps.kairosfocus
October 16, 2022
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Querius,
DD: Indeed, but the corresponding problem in dualism of course is interaction: if mind is causal but obeys no physical laws, how does it magically affect the physical realm? Q: You would know the answer to your question if you ever played a first-person video game or asked someone who has.
Oh, I wasn't aware this problem had been solved. And so easily! I've actually coded first-person video games, does that count? Still, I can't say I understand how immaterial minds interact with the physical world. I think maybe something having to do with the pineal gland?
There are also scientists who take the position that we might be living in an “ancestor simulation.” If you search on the term, you’ll find some presentations on the subject.
Interesting approach, where you assume ignorance on my part. Anyway, sure I know about simulation hypotheses. Like other hypotheses that entail the uploading of our conscious selves, simulation blithely assumes that human minds can exist without human bodies. I don't happen to buy that at all, but who knows? (answer: nobody)
Why do you wake up? Why did a college friend of mine wake up after over six months in a coma?
Terrific questions!
Where are these “mountains” of evidence?
You're asking what evidence we have that people with damage or destruction of the brain results in a loss of consciousness?
Declaring mysteria in philosophy as a sort of “safe zone” is unscientific and silly.
Sorry you feel that way. I think it is the only intellectually honest position. It's not intended to be scientific, and it's certainly not intended to be a "safe zone". Anyway, you are pretending to know the answers to questions that have been debated for millenia, but you think my position is silly. Perhaps the concept of humility may be of some help to you.
Is consciousness a property of matter or not? Your position of “we’ll figure it out” someday is usually called “faith.”
Please read @762 to discover how comically wrong you are about my position. But it is interesting how you seem to use "faith" as an epithet.
Hiding behind ignorance in the complexities of quantum mechanics, chaos theory, string theory, presumed dark energy, giving it a Latin name in neuroscience doesn’t help.
Sorry, now you seem to just be ranting - I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
Current evidence in neuroscience is presented here by a professor of neurosurgery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeLND9bnjxE
Please read @762 to discover how comically wrong you are about my position. (Also, pro tip: surgeons are not trained in philosophy)
Glad you found it entertaining, but I think you’ll find considerable disagreement by others in whether your arguments were at all convincing or rebutted.
Yes, I've done everything I can to invite counter-arguments! Origenes gave it a pretty good go, but evidently couldn't think of how to respond to my rebuttal of his last attempt. Anyway, it appears that you and BA77 go by the same playbook: Make incorrect assumptions about your opponent, proceed to attack those strawman positions, and avoid any engagement of the argument that's been presented. At least BA had the grace to acknowledge my position may (or may not) have merit, and explain that his failure to address it was because of his preference for empirical science over philosophy. (Rather confusing, given BA's forays into metaphysics and theism, but still). Anyway, if you'd like to continue, let's put the knives away and have a nice debate. I had some differences with Viola Lee and WJM too, but encountered only interesting, pleasant, good faith discussions with them. Give it a try!dogdoc
October 16, 2022
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Dogdoc,
Indeed, but the corresponding problem in dualism of course is interaction: if mind is causal but obeys no physical laws, how does it magically affect the physical realm?
You would know the answer to your question if you ever played a first-person video game or asked someone who has. There are also scientists who take the position that we might be living in an "ancestor simulation." If you search on the term, you'll find some presentations on the subject.
The dependence of consciousness on brain function is supported by huge mountains of evidence; good evidence for consciousness when there is no neural tissue at all is virtually absent. Even if functioning brains are not sufficient for conscious experience, from our uniform and repeated experience, they do appear to be necessary, but it is utterly mysterious as to why that may be the case.
Huh? You are unconscious roughly a third of your life. Why do you wake up? Why did a college friend of mine wake up after over six months in a coma? Where are these "mountains" of evidence?
Again, mysterianism is the only position that I think makes sense at this juncture. But so-called “experimental philosophy” is a very new idea, and who knows what we’ll figure out as we explore modern physics, neuroscience, chaos theory, and of course (as Viola mentioned) recursion.
Declaring mysteria in philosophy as a sort of “safe zone” is unscientific and silly. Is consciousness a property of matter or not? Your position of “we’ll figure it out” someday is usually called “faith.” Hiding behind ignorance in the complexities of quantum mechanics, chaos theory, string theory, presumed dark energy, giving it a Latin name in neuroscience doesn’t help. Current evidence in neuroscience is presented here by a professor of neurosurgery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeLND9bnjxE
Once again, not sure where your umbrage at digressions in these discussions comes from – I have no trouble scrolling past posts that don’t interest me (although it would be nice if we could collapse the incredibly long copypasta posts from BA or KF a bit).
There’s a difference between digressions, changing the subject, and even hijacking a topic. Perhaps any copy-paste should be prefaced with some statement like, “We’ve previously beaten this issue to death, so here’s a dump of my position.”
Anyway, I thought this was a great discussion! Of course I didn’t expect anyone to actually concede my argument about free choice, but I’m encouraged by the fact that various folks have tried and – in my view – failed to articulate any clear rebuttals.
Glad you found it entertaining, but I think you’ll find considerable disagreement by others in whether your arguments were at all convincing or rebutted. But can I request that you to keep more to the subject in the topic title? There are plenty of issues that could be considered in “How Infinity Threatens Cosmology.” There are also other topics that might lend themselves more to the philosophies of mind, consciousness, and the definition of “free will.” -QQuerius
October 16, 2022
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Querius,
If consciousness is magically attributed to a single brain cell...
Indeed, but the corresponding problem in dualism of course is interaction: if mind is causal but obeys no physical laws, how does it magically affect the physical realm?
If consciousness is somehow attributed to the arrangement of brain cells, then why are some people unconscious? How do people “regain” consciousness even with the same brain-cell arrangement?
The dependence of consciousness on brain function is supported by huge mountains of evidence; good evidence for consciousness when there is no neural tissue at all is virtually absent. Even if functioning brains are not sufficient for conscious experience, from our uniform and repeated experience, they do appear to be necessary, but it is utterly mysterious as to why that may be the case. Again, mysterianism is the only position that I think makes sense at this juncture. But so-called "experimental philosophy" is a very new idea, and who knows what we'll figure out as we explore modern physics, neuroscience, chaos theory, and of course (as Viola mentioned) recursion.
All this (free will, etc.) is of course irrelevant to “How Infinity Threatens Cosmology” as I previously noted.
Once again, not sure where your umbrage at digressions in these discussions comes from - I have no trouble scrolling past posts that don't interest me (although it would be nice if we could collapse the incredibly long copypasta posts from BA or KF a bit). Anyway, I thought this was a great discussion! Of course I didn't expect anyone to actually concede my argument about free choice, but I'm encouraged by the fact that various folks have tried and - in my view - failed to articulate any clear rebuttals.dogdoc
October 16, 2022
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Kairosfocus @757, Well said. I still cannot imagine how physics can explain consciousness as an undiscovered property of matter. The absurd excuse that it "emerges" from "very complicated" arrangements of matter is silly because it either (a) appears ex nihilo at some critical mass or (b) it's present in all lesser quantities of matter from the level of quarks and then builds up to god-like consciousness at galactic levels. If consciousness is magically attributed to a single brain cell, then sperm whales, elephants, and dolphins have more of it than humans. This idea is sometimes rationalized with brain to body ratio. Thus, morbidly obese humans must have less consciousness than thin humans. If consciousness is somehow attributed to the arrangement of brain cells, then why are some people unconscious? How do people "regain" consciousness even with the same brain-cell arrangement? All this (free will, etc.) is of course irrelevant to "How Infinity Threatens Cosmology" as I previously noted. In contrast, Viola Lee's contribution in reference to Steven Weinberg's book, which includes his observation that infinities are indications of failures in our models is highly relevant and provocative. Thank you, Viola Lee. -QQuerius
October 16, 2022
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Origenes, I thought you were really debating in good faith and with clarity - sorry to see you offer one last counter-argument (regarding causes. or compulsions, vs. reasons) but then decline to respond to my rebuttal. I'd still like to hear your final thoughts. KF - I can't make any sense out of anything you say, and your copypasta about evolution and materialism and scientism and whatever is completely irrelevant to our discussion.dogdoc
October 16, 2022
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