Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

From IAI News: How infinity threatens cosmology

Categories
Cosmology
Sciences and Theology
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Peter Cameron, Emeritus Professor Mathematics at Queen Mary, University of London, writes:

There are many approaches to infinity through the twin pillars of science and religion, but I will just restrict my attention here to the views of mathematicians and physicists.

22 09 23.infinity2.ata
IAI News

Aristotle was one of the most influential Greek philosophers. He believed that we could consider “potential infinity” (we can count objects without knowing how many more are coming) but that a “completed infinity” is taboo. For mathematicians, infinity was off-limits for two millennia after Aristotle’s ban. Galileo tried to tackle the problem, noting that an infinite set could be matched up with a part of itself, but in the end drew back. It was left to Cantor in the nineteenth century to show us the way to think about infinity, which is accepted by most mathematicians now. There are infinitely many counting numbers; any number you write down is a negligible step along the way to infinity. So Cantor’s idea was to imagine we have a package containing all these numbers; put a label on it saying “The natural numbers”, and treat the package as a single entity. If you want to study individual numbers, you can break open the package and take them out to look at them.  Now you can take any collection of these packages, and bundle them up to form another single entity. Thus, set theory is born. Cantor investigated ways of measuring these sets, and today set theory is the commonest foundation for mathematics, though other foundations have been proposed. 

One of Cantor’s discoveries is that there is no largest infinite set: given any set you can always find a larger one. The smallest infinite set is the set of natural numbers. What comes next is a puzzle which can’t be resolved at present. It may be the real (decimal) numbers, or maybe not. Our current foundations are not strong enough, and building larger telescopes will not help with this question. Perhaps in the future we will adopt new foundations for mathematics which will resolve the question.

These questions keep set theorists awake at night; but most mathematicians work near the bottom of this dizzying hierarchy, with small infinities. For example, Euclid proved that the prime numbers “go on for ever”. (Aristotle would say, “Whatever prime you find, I can find a larger one.”

While Kronecker (a fierce opponent of Cantor’s ideas) thought in the nineteenth century that “God created the natural numbers; the rest is the work of man”, we can now build the natural numbers using the tools of set theory, starting from nothing (more precisely the empty set).

Mathematicians know, however, that there is a huge gap between the finite and the infinite. If you toss a coin 100 times, it is not impossible (just very unlikely) that it will come down tails each time. But, if you could imagine tossing a coin infinitely often, then the chance of not getting heads and tails equally often is zero. Of course, you could never actually perform this experiment; but mathematics is a conceptual science, and we are happy to accept this statement on the basis of a rigorous proof.

Infinity in physics and cosmology has not been resolved so satisfactorily. The two great twentieth-century theories of physics, general relativity (the theory of the very large) and quantum mechanics (the theory of the very small) have resisted attempts to unite them. The one thing most physicists can agree on is that the universe came into being a finite time ago (about 13.7 billion years) — large, but not infinite. 

The James Webb Space Telescope has just begun showing us unprecedented details in the universe. As well as nearby objects, it sees the furthest objects ever observed. Because light travels at a finite speed, these are also the oldest objects observed, having been formed close to the beginning of the Universe. The finite speed of light also puts limits on what we can see; if an object is so far away that its light could not reach us if it travelled for the whole age of the universe, then we are unaware of its existence. So Malunkyaputta’s question about whether the universe is finite or infinite is moot. But is it eternal or not? That is a real question, and is so far undecided.

Attempts to reconcile relativity and quantum theory have been made. The ones currently most promising adopt a very radical attitude to infinity. They deny that the infinitely small can exist in the universe, but prescribe a minimum possible scale, essentially the so-called Planck scale.

Such a solution would put an end to Zeno’s paradox. Zeno denied the possibility of motion, since to move from A to B you first have to move to a point C halfway to B, and before that to a point D halfway from A to C, and so on to infinity. If space is not infinitely divisible, then this infinite regress cannot occur. (This solution was already grasped by Democritus and the early Greek atomists.)

Of course, this leaves us with a conceptual problem similar to the one raised by the possibility that the university is finite. In that case, the obvious question is “If the universe has an edge, what is beyond it?” In the case of the Planck length, the question would be “Given any length, however small, why can’t I just take half of it?”

Perhaps because we have been conditioned by Zeno’s paradox, we tend to think of the points on a line to be, like the real numbers, infinitely divisible: between any two we can find another. But current thinking is that the universe is not built this way.

More important to physics, the atomist hypothesis also gets rid of another annoying occurrence of infinity in physics. Black holes in general relativity are points of spacetime where the density of matter becomes infinite and the laws of physics break down. These have been a thorn in the flesh of cosmologists since their existence was first predicted, since by definition we cannot understand what happens there. If space is discrete, we cannot put infinitely many things infinitely close together, and the paradox is avoided. We can still have extremely high density; the black hole recently observed and photographed at the centre of our own galaxy is (on this theory) just a point of such high density that light cannot escape, but does not defy our ability to understand it.

Time, however, remains a problem; current theories cannot decide the ultimate fate of the universe. Does it end with heat death, a cold dark universe where nothing happens? Does the mysterious “dark energy” become so strong that it rips the universe to shreds? Or does the expansion from the Big Bang go into reverse, so that the universe ends in a Big Crunch?

None of this matters to us individually. The sun will expand and swallow the earth long before the universe reaches its end.

Full article at IAI News.

Although this article glosses over some concepts in physics and cosmology, it raises interesting points to ponder.

Comments
Dogdoc @
... we cannot lift ourselves by our own bootstraps.
Your demand that 2 + 2 = 4 must be freely malleable is nonsensical, and you should drop this immediately, however you are exactly right when you intuit that freedom requires lifting oneself by one’s own bootstraps. Consciousness does just that. In conscious self-awareness observer and observant are one. Master and puppet, for lack of better terms, are one. Consciousness resists linear causal explanation, and is where freedom comes from.Origenes
October 14, 2022
October
10
Oct
14
14
2022
01:32 AM
1
01
32
AM
PDT
WJM,
DD: People have a certain component or capacity that is the ultimate arbiter of our choices. WJM: This is not what I said or meant to imply.
This is why clarification takes a bit of work here. I had read in your @622:
As I said, the term “free” – at least as my definition – refers to an ineffable, top-down, directorial and original-causal capacity that is free from being caused or determined by anything else. This ineffable capacity might be considered a third, vertical axis to the planar axes of will and “reasons.” IOW, wherever you find where will and reasons meet to form an aware choice, in order to actually make a choice there must be another component that actuates picks from the options and activates the preferred choice.
But here in @699 I think I understand you much better:
“Will” is the ultimate arbiter of our choices...So, “will” refers to what is actually produced in terms of a decision, or a thought about what one might do, and “free” refers to the set of all the decisions that can be made – all potential acts of will for any and all associated reasons.
Not sure that I fully understand this; this is my best guess: 1) "Will" is the capacity to make decisions 2) "Free" is all possible decisions that could be made (constrained by reasons) 3) So "free will" is the capacity to select one of all possible decisions
Now, keep in mind that under this premise, you don’t get to say “but you still had a reason to do it,” as if that makes a salient point. That’s a given under this premise.
You're agreeing that every free choice is made for some reason(s), because that is built in to your definition of "free".
There is always a reason for any actual act of will, conscious or not. We are consciously operating, continuously, as willful actors with reasons. That is the grid or matrix I was referring to before; you can always locate our conscious attention at locations that contain actual willful decisions with associated reasons.
Ok...
That attentive point can be viewed as having an observable, contextual area around it at any given time (the landscape) that has various options within it. This is your “range of options” that you can see or imagine at the time. The parameters and content of this range of action/reason opportunity is defined by several different things, and kinds of things, which you listed before, and more – beliefs, desires, physical limitations, the limits of one’s imagination, perspective, memory, history, projected outcomes, ontological and epistemological beliefs, morality, etc. Let’s call this the “local landscape” of any decision.
Ok...
Now let me attempt to characterize your position in this framing: your position would basically be that our will-to-choice-for-reasons is entirely the determined outcome of this local landscape.
That is essentially correct, yes (except I describe it in terms of reasoning over these parameters rather than being causally determined by them).
And I would say that if that was the full capacity of that which could our will/reason, you would at least be directionally right, because the capacity of our will would not be free; it would be constrained by the local landscape.
I say that the will is not free because the parameters of the local landscape are not selected by the will.
The local landscape would be, in effect, determining our choices (given all that we have included as the “local landscape.”)
Again, yes, with the caveat that the concept of "determine" is fraught (my view is agnostic as to both ontology and determinism) so I avoid it altogether, and just focus on the fact that it is the parameters, and nothing else, that the person reasons over to make choices.
IOW, it would be impossible to make a decision that steps outside of that landscape because you cannot even see outside of it in order to even imagine such a place exists.
It's more like there is no concept that I can think of that could account for our choices and is neither random nor the result of reasoning over parameters. I don't think there is a third way. (Again, this "third way" is usually contrasted with random vs. determined, but in my argument the will reasons to an output instead of reasons causally determining the output).
Even if we are presented with other people’s perspectives, what we think about those perspectives would also be a functional product of our own local landscape because it is the only landscape we can see, even with our mind’s eye.
Ok.
So we come to how I am saying that our capacity is, ultimately, “free,” in that it actually contains all possible landscape arrangements, including landscapes that dissolve the current issue entirely from even being a thing that requires a will/reasons decision, or landscapes that reveal entirely different sets of will/reasons decisions about that issue.
Again not sure I understand this, but my guess is: The range of possible choices can be extended greatly, offering choices that aren't immediately apparent based on the beliefs, desires, etc. one already has. Please correct me if I'm wrong. But I can't see that you have explained what is being done here to make the final choice, if it isn't just reasoning over the parameters in the (expanded) landscape.
Without an orthogonal capacity that extends beyond one’s current local landscape, which includes everything you can see or imagine or believe possible at the time, you would have no access to other landscapes.
Ok, let's call it the "orthogonal capacity", and this is the component which is capable of reasoning over a larger expanded set of parameters in order to reach a decision. (As an aside, I have to say that I feel my much simpler definition of "free choice" is much, much closer to most people's conception of their choice-making; this model is significantly more elaborate).
Under my premise of “free” referring to “capacity to access any and all possible landscapes,” we can, within our own local landscape, make a form of a non-articulate (even in mind) “demiurge” intention to find a different landscape, even though we cannot see it or even imagine it, that can direct this orthogonal capacity to find a different landscape.
Ok, here is the crux of your view as far as I'm concerned: The way that the orthoganal capacity makes choices is via a "non-articulate demiurge intention". To me this is extremely vague, to put it mildly. If it isn't causally determining the choice, and it isn't reasoning over the parameters in order to choose, then what does it mean to have a non-articulate demiurge intention choose? It's a bit like this: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Then-a-Miracle-Occurs-Copyrighted-artwork-by-Sydney-Harris-Inc-All-materials-used-with_fig2_302632920
This new landscape appears to us from out of the blue, so to speak, call it a spiritual transformation, an epiphany or an inspiration.
This sounds like you're offering an expanded ontology; my view avoids metaphysics.
But, here’s the thing: once you understand this, you have fully embraced the “free” aspect of what we call “free will.” You realize you are not bound by, or the function of, your current local landscape because you know you have access to landscapes you cannot see or imagine, but which you can now direct your capacity to find from an orthogonal position beyond your current local perspective. This “orthogonal access” is what spiritual people might call the “God” within us, which has access to all possibilities and sees all possible landscapes and can simply “reveal” something to the individual that can entirely transform them – meaning, it can fundamentally transform their landscape.
I don't mean this at all derogatorily, but this sounds like things I used to write down while on psychedelics. In sum, I've presented a relatively simple argument that demonstrates that ultimate responsibility for our choices is impossible. You disagree with my view, because in your view there is a component of our psyche (or soul) that, in an effable way, transcends the limits of our thinking and delivers choices that are neither random nor arrived at by reasoning over our beliefs, desires, and so on. I think we understand each other's views much better, but will likely continue to disagree.dogdoc
October 14, 2022
October
10
Oct
14
14
2022
12:32 AM
12
12
32
AM
PDT
I’m going to stop here for the time being. I appreciate the conversation, this is really interesting stuff. I haven’t ever explored the concept of what “free” means, wrt “free will,” this deeply before.
Best of luck, William. I think you will hit the buffers of the problem all humans have, which is trying to understand the capacity for human thought by thinking about it. Our ability to understand is limited by our ability to understand. There is a second problem, the Cassandra problem.Alan Fox
October 14, 2022
October
10
Oct
14
14
2022
12:28 AM
12
12
28
AM
PDT
Dogdoc @684 said:
In order to come to a shared understanding, please clarify your model, and then please explain how this third axis, this component or capacity to make actual free choices, determines what choice to make if, as you say, the choice is not purely based on either reasons or will.
Now we're talking!
People have a certain component or capacity that is the ultimate arbiter of our choices.
This is not what I said or meant to imply. "Will" is the ultimate arbiter of our choices, and it always acts with associated reasons. "Free" refers to a capacity, not an act. Acts are of will and reasons; the question is, what is the capacity of that will? What is its potential? To be clear, "capacity" means "the maximum amount a thing can contain or produce." So, "will" refers to what is actually produced in terms of a decision, or a thought about what one might do, and "free" refers to the set of all the decisions that can be made - all potential acts of will for any and all associated reasons. Now, keep in mind that under this premise, you don't get to say "but you still had a reason to do it," as if that makes a salient point. That's a given under this premise. There is always a reason for any actual act of will, conscious or not. We are consciously operating, continuously, as willful actors with reasons. That is the grid or matrix I was referring to before; you can always locate our conscious attention at locations that contain actual willful decisions with associated reasons. That attentive point can be viewed as having an observable, contextual area around it at any given time (the landscape) that has various options within it. This is your "range of options" that you can see or imagine at the time. The parameters and content of this range of action/reason opportunity is defined by several different things, and kinds of things, which you listed before, and more - beliefs, desires, physical limitations, the limits of one's imagination, perspective, memory, history, projected outcomes, ontological and epistemological beliefs, morality, etc. Let's call this the "local landscape" of any decision. Now let me attempt to characterize your position in this framing: your position would basically be that our will-to-choice-for-reasons is entirely the determined outcome of this local landscape. And I would say that if that was the full capacity of that which could our will/reason, you would at least be directionally right, because the capacity of our will would not be free; it would be constrained by the local landscape. The local landscape would be, in effect, determining our choices (given all that we have included as the "local landscape.") IOW, it would be impossible to make a decision that steps outside of that landscape because you cannot even see outside of it in order to even imagine such a place exists. Even if we are presented with other people's perspectives, what we think about those perspectives would also be a functional product of our own local landscape because it is the only landscape we can see, even with our mind's eye. So we come to how I am saying that our capacity is, ultimately, "free," in that it actually contains all possible landscape arrangements, including landscapes that dissolve the current issue entirely from even being a thing that requires a will/reasons decision, or landscapes that reveal entirely different sets of will/reasons decisions about that issue. Without an orthogonal capacity that extends beyond one's current local landscape, which includes everything you can see or imagine or believe possible at the time, you would have no access to other landscapes. Under my premise of "free" referring to "capacity to access any and all possible landscapes," we can, within our own local landscape, make a form of a non-articulate (even in mind) "demiurge" intention to find a different landscape, even though we cannot see it or even imagine it, that can direct this orthogonal capacity to find a different landscape. This new landscape appears to us from out of the blue, so to speak, call it a spiritual transformation, an epiphany or an inspiration. Now remember, even if one does this deliberately for reasons, that doesn't have any bearing on the volume of available landscapes, which is what "free" refers to. "Free" means that we ultimately have access to all possible arrangements of landscapes, and "orthogonal" means we have that access even if we cannot see or imagine those landscapes from our current position. If we did, they would be part of our current available landscape. We don't have to know what or where they are and thus how to direct ourselves into it in terms of our current landscape. But, here's the thing: once you understand this, you have fully embraced the "free" aspect of what we call "free will." You realize you are not bound by, or the function of, your current local landscape because you know you have access to landscapes you cannot see or imagine, but which you can now direct your capacity to find from an orthogonal position beyond your current local perspective. This "orthogonal access" is what spiritual people might call the "God" within us, which has access to all possibilities and sees all possible landscapes and can simply "reveal" something to the individual that can entirely transform them - meaning, it can fundamentally transform their landscape. I'm not saying that this capacity is always fully transformative; it can come in smaller doses, like providing an entirely different, surprising, even shockingly different way of seeing a particular issue within your current landscape. I'm going to stop here for the time being. I appreciate the conversation, this is really interesting stuff. I haven't ever explored the concept of what "free" means, wrt "free will," this deeply before. PS for KF and others: some things are part of every possible landscape, such as the principles of logic.William J Murray
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
11:27 PM
11
11
27
PM
PDT
Origenes,
Why does it necessarily originate from the outside? From whence would that be?
As I indicated, I'm not suggesting any particular explanation for how you, or your conscious mind, came to exist. But it is logically impossible for you to be the reason that you exist.
Also, a choice is based on reasons, but you are the only one who claims that these reasons must be freely chosen.
I'm saying that if they are not freely chosen then any choice predicated on those reasons are not freely chosen. Did you not understand the point I've made regarding beliefs or desires that are not freely chosen, for example those implanted by brainwashing or hypnosis? As I've explained, if an evil neuroscientist somehow implanted a belief in my brain that resulted in my thinking that my family were aliens who were trying to kill me, and I subsequently killed my family for that reason, most people would not consider that choice to be an exercise of free will.
You say that, in order for a choice to be free, reasons must be choosable.
Yes, as my examples illustrate, nobody and nothing else can be responsible for the beliefs and desires upon which you base your choices if your choices are truly your own free choices. The reasons must be chosen only by you, but that is impossible. So, your choices cannot be free.
Let me try to make this concrete.: 2+2= 4 sets certain parameters, are you saying we are only free if we can choose 2+2= 67,39 or whatever else comes to mind, e.g. 2+2= moon cheese ?
You cannot make free choices no matter what you believe. If you believe that 2+2=5, then you may make a choice based on that belief, but in order for that choice to be free, you must have come to believe that 2+2=5 for some reason. Perhaps the reason is that you had a bad education in arithmetic, or you have some cognitive deficit that prevents you from understanding addition, neither of which would have been under your control. But say you chose to skip class, and that was your choice, and the result of that was that you think 2+2=5, and you base a choice upon that. Would that be a free choice? You should be able to see the problem now: You would have to ask, for what reason did you skip class. And so on. At no time can this regress end with you using your beliefs and desires to choose your beliefs and desires, in the same way we cannot lift ourselves by our own bootstraps.dogdoc
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
06:11 PM
6
06
11
PM
PDT
Dogdoc @
… just like every other choice, your choice to believe in your self requires that you choose reasons, and then choose reasons for that choice, etc, until the regress ends in an unchosen reason. And that unchosen reason (an undeniable perception that you do not choose to experience, a self-evident axiom that you did not choose to believe, etc.) originates outside of your self.
Why does it necessarily originate from the outside? From whence would that be? Also, a choice is based on reasons, but you are the only one who claims that these reasons must be freely chosen. You say that, in order for a choice to be free, reasons must be choosable. Let me try to make this concrete.: 2+2= 4 sets certain parameters, are you saying we are only free if we can choose 2+2= 67,39 or whatever else comes to mind, e.g. 2+2= moon cheese ?Origenes
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
05:02 PM
5
05
02
PM
PDT
Origenes,
DD: Now we come to our disagreement, where in my view your choice was not free, where “free” requires that the choice was “made for reasons of one’s own choosing”. OR: At this point I do not wish to discuss your concept of freedom, because that is not the reason why I made my “I exist argument.”
In that case I take it you have no rebuttal to my particular formulation of the argument. If we take "free choice" to mean "a choice made for reasons of one's own choosing", then you would agree that "free choice" is impossible.
You have stated: “… the choice is always based on reasons that ultimately originate externally.” In #289 I have argued that the belief “I exist” originates internally, thereby refuting your claim.
Well, no, just like every other choice, your choice to believe in your self requires that you choose reasons, and then choose reasons for that choice, etc, until the regress ends in an unchosen reason. And that unchosen reason (an undeniable perception that you do not choose to experience, a self-evident axiom that you did not choose to believe, etc.) originates outside of your self.
I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I”, put another way: no one but me can possibly have an informed opinion on this particular subject, therefor whatever I choose to believe about my “I” can only be my absolute responsibility, can only be the result of my fully self-determined choice.
However consciousness arises, it was not something that you created yourself - you have no choice but to experience it. Therefore your choices based on your conscious experience cannot be free, in the same way choices based on involuntary beliefs that result from brainwashing or hypnosis are not free. It makes no difference at all that your subjective experience cannot be known by others; what matters here is that your perception of your own consciousness was not something you voluntarily originated.
Allow me to add: My “I” is conveyed by (my) introspection solely to me. I am the sole observer of my “I”. And I am the only experiencer of my “I”. My “I” is utterly invisible / inaccessible to others. When I refer to my “I”, I am the only one who knows what he is talking about.
I have no trouble with any of this. Likewise, your perception that the sky is blue is invisible to others, but we can hardly say that you freely chose to experience the blueness of the sky.
When I refer to my “I” in “I exist”, I am the only one who knows what I mean to exist. Therefor I am the only possible origin of my claim “I exist”.
I really don't see why you think that the subjective nature of your conscious experience somehow means that your are somehow internally, ultimately responsible for your ability to experience consciousness. Did you think to yourself, "I think I'd like to be a conscious person?" and then proceed to make that happen, or do you find yourself in this situation based on things external to yourself (God? Evolution? Whatever). Aside from being ultimately based on external factors, the choices you make based on the fact that you experience consciousness are not ultimately free choices, because you could not somehow choose otherwise. And if you cannot choose otherwise, then you have no choice, do you?dogdoc
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
02:42 PM
2
02
42
PM
PDT
JVL, despite your huffing and puffing to the contrary, nether you, (a dishonest Darwinian trollbot), nor Shubin, have any real-time empirical evidence to substantiate your grandiose Darwinian claims, just flawed reasoning that assumes your conclusion.
Shubin Is Still at It Now he claims genetic missing links have been found. With colleagues from Spain, Chile, and his own university, Shubin has a new paper out in PNAS1 that purports to demonstrate “shared evolutionary history” between the genes and molecules involved with making fish fins and vertebrate limbs, according to news from the University of Chicago. This news release has a very similar title to a release three years ago written by the same reporter, Matt Wood, except that the new genetic analysis claims to have uncovered not just the “origins” of vertebrate limbs but also the “shared genetic history of fish fins and vertebrate limbs.” All vertebrates have the same basic body plan: head, spine, four appendages. Those appendages vary greatly in size, shape, and function, of course — from fins to wings, arms, and legs — but a new genetic analysis shows that genes that control development at the ends of the appendages share a deep evolutionary history. [Emphasis added.] The issue to focus on is not similarities, since we obviously share some traits with fish (we are made of cells and are vertebrates). Can Shubin and his team demonstrate that the genes that control the development of fish fins switched overby a Darwinian mechanism before Tiktaalik to start creating digits on limbs? Finding genes that make different structures is not enough to win an evolution debate because a designer could reuse code for different purposes. For instance, the Sonic hedgehog gene (Shh) is widely used in vertebrates. Shubin needs to demonstrate an ancestral evolutionaryconnection between fish and people at the location of fish fins. Otherwise, he could illogically say about any similarity, “Fish have heads and people have heads. That proves that people evolved from fish.” The basic argument is summarized in the PNAS paper’s “Significance” statement: In this study, we show that the inactivation of the gli3 gene in medaka fish results in the formation of larger dorsal and paired fins. These mutant fins display multiple radial bones and fin rays which resemble polydactyly in Gli3-deficient mice. Our molecular and genetic analyses indicate that the size of fish fins is controlled by an ancient mechanism mediated by SHH-GLI signaling that appeared prior to the evolutionary appearance of paired fins. We also show that the key regulatory networks that mediate the expansion of digit progenitor cells in tetrapods were already in place in the fins of the last common ancestor between ray and lobe-finned fishes, suggestingan ancient similarity between distal fins and digits. An Intuitive Guess Do they identify that last common ancestor? No. They assume that since fish and tetrapods have the genes and regulatory networks, the ancestor must have had them too. It’s an intuitive guess, but in other anomalous situations, evolutionists have felt free to posit independent origins of complex systems. (One example is wings in different lineages of stick insects.) The press release states the evidence in simpler terms, “a gene that controls the growth of bones at the terminal end of fish fins play [sic] the same role in forming fingers and toes in four-legged creatures.” Shubin steps in: The same gene also controls this process both in paired fins, which are the progenitors to limbs, and the single, unpaired dorsal fin common to all fish that evolved before paired fins. This suggests that the last common ancestor between ray- and lobe-finned fish nearly 500 million years ago already had the genetic toolkit to shape their appendages, shared to this day by fish and four-legged vertebrates. “There’s this deep homology or similarity between fins and limbs, something ancient in structures that really don’t look alike,” said Neil Shubin, PhD, the Robert R. Bensley Distinguished Service Professor of Anatomy at UChicago and co-author of the new study. “We’re showing a deeply conserved, deeply ancient and preserved gene function that’s been around for hundreds of millions of years in vastly different structures. So, the molecular toolkit is ancient, and it does the same thing in different kinds of animals.” Has Shubin demonstrated an evolutionary connection? No; one could use the same argument with mitosis. That too is a “deeply conserved, deeply ancient and preserved gene function that’s been around for hundreds of millions of years in vastly different structures.” The similarity argument could be used to argue anything shared between any organisms indicates relatedness. Enter the gli3 Gene Next, Shubin and the team mention a gene that works with Shh, called gli3. The gli3 gene is known to be involved in patterning fingers in vertebrates. When knocked out, vertebrates grow extra fingers (polydactyly). The team found that it also controls the number of rays in fish fins; when knocked out, fins have more rays. Is this his ace in the hole? No; it has the same fallacious reasoning. “The speculation is that you have a primitive function of gli3 present in all vertebrate appendages ever since about 500 million years ago, and that was to promote proliferation, or the number of cells and hence the number of bones in the terminal end,” Shubin said. “When paired fins arose it was already there, so gli3 was co-opted and gained a new role, which is anterior/posterior patterning.” How this helps the evolutionary view is not clear. A complex patterning gene was present before fish and mammals needed it. It sounds like intelligent design, not Darwinism. “We all share a certain genetic toolkit, even though the anatomy may look very different in adult stages. We’re finding these hidden, but very important, mechanistic similarities,” he said. “It’s really only with the benefit of the ability to do CRISPR for knockouts and the ability to do sequencing that we can really see these things at all. It’s showing an underlying architectural and genetic ground plan for a diverse set of appendages in all vertebrates.” Let’s Assess the Argument All vertebrates use Shh, partly to form limbs. All vertebrates use gli3 to pattern digits or fin rays. Like mitosis and hundreds of other similarities, these complex functions were already present, and are present today, in fish and in tetrapods. Where is the evolution? The argument that gli3 “was co-opted and gained a new role” makes no sense unless you already believe in evolution. Can the PNAS paper help get Shubin out of his circular reasoning? Altogether, our results show that the presence of the shh/gli3 regulatory network in fish fins, so vital for limb formation and digit patterning, is primitive to limbs. Moreover, its functions in unpaired dorsal fins, widely recognized precursors of paired appendages, suggest that the recruitment of this network may have preceded the origin of paired fins themselves. Widely recognized? By whom? Evolutionists! It’s circularity all the way down. The only way to accept this explanation is to begin by pledging allegiance to the origin of specious reasoning. Then you are free to “speculate” that pre-existing genes and a complex regulatory network “may have preceded the origin” of fins and limbs. It’s like the hobo argument, “Assume a can opener; it can open a soup can and a stew can.” But the can opener is the issue! One cannot assume the existence of what needs to be proved. Assuming the chance emergence of a complex gene regulatory network might shed light on fin formation and limb formation, but where did that come from? Much less does it prove that the stew can have evolved from the soup can. Interestingly, they fail to identify a single spontaneous mutation that was naturally “selected” to originate the genes, the regulatory network, the fins, or the limbs. Those are assumed, too. Flawed Reasoning Is the Common Ancestor of Bad Arguments How does Shubin know that limbs evolved from fins? Answer: similarities. But what about the differences? Oh, well, those evolved. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! You could play this game with anything, like digestive enzymes or the genetic code itself. Ah, but if the similarities are not on the previously assumed ancestral tree, then those are false similarities. This scheme is guaranteed to support Darwinism against all possible scientific criticisms. And that’s why they can brazenly tell the public in museum displays that evolution is a fact, only questioned by the “ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked).” Design advocates need to understand the rhetorical and logical schemes they are up against with Darwinians. It’s not enough to present better empirical evidence that challenges their evidence. It is also necessary to shine a light on the fallacious reasoning behind the claims, including circular arguments like this one. In fact, that is best done first before evidence is brought to bear in a debate. The details of their claims don’t matter if their reasoning is flawed. See our Long Story Short video on homology for other flaws in arguments from similarity. https://evolutionnews.org/2022/01/more-fishy-tales-afoot-from-neil-shubin/
JVL, I'm not asking for much in terms of real time empirical evidence. How about just changing one type of bacteria into a new type of bacteria?
Scant search for the Maker - 2001 Excerpt: But where is the experimental evidence? None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another. Bacteria, the simplest form of independent life, are ideal for this kind of study, with generation times of 20 to 30 minutes, and populations achieved after 18 hours. But throughout 150 years of the science of bacteriology, there is no evidence that one species of bacteria has changed into another, in spite of the fact that populations have been exposed to potent chemical and physical mutagens and that, uniquely, bacteria possess extrachromosomal, transmissible plasmids. Since there is no evidence for species changes between the simplest forms of unicellular life, it is not surprising that there is no evidence for evolution from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells, let alone throughout the whole array of higher multicellular organisms. - Alan H. Linton - emeritus professor of bacteriology, University of Bristol. http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=159282 Of related note, Scott Minnich recently falsified Lenski's claim that the citrate adaptation observed in his e-coli was a unique speciation event that provided proof for Darwinian evolution, by showing citrate adaptation is easily and repeatedly acquired under the right experimental conditions: Rapid Evolution of Citrate Utilization by Escherichia coli by Direct Selection Requires citT and dctA. - Minnich - Feb. 2016 The isolation of aerobic citrate-utilizing Escherichia coli (Cit(+)) in long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) has been termed a rare, innovative, presumptive speciation event. We hypothesized that direct selection would rapidly yield the same class of E. coli Cit(+) mutants and follow the same genetic trajectory: potentiation, actualization, and refinement. This hypothesis was tested,,, Potentiation/actualization mutations occurred within as few as 12 generations, and refinement mutations occurred within 100 generations.,,, E. coli cannot use citrate aerobically. Long-term evolution experiments (LTEE) performed by Blount et al. (Z. D. Blount, J. E. Barrick, C. J. Davidson, and R. E. Lenski, Nature 489:513-518, 2012, http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature11514 ) found a single aerobic, citrate-utilizing E. coli strain after 33,000 generations (15 years). This was interpreted as a speciation event. Here we show why it probably was not a speciation event. Using similar media, 46 independent citrate-utilizing mutants were isolated in as few as 12 to 100 generations. Genomic DNA sequencing revealed an amplification of the citT and dctA loci and DNA rearrangements to capture a promoter to express CitT, aerobically. These are members of the same class of mutations identified by the LTEE. We conclude that the rarity of the LTEE mutant was an artifact of the experimental conditions and not a unique evolutionary event. No new genetic information (novel gene function) evolved. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26833416 Re-interpreting Long-Term Evolution Experiments: A Conversation with Dr. Scott Minnich – March 2017 - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rpNPzQAMck The Paradox of the "Ancient" (250 Million Year Old) Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; - 2002 “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 Static evolution: is pond scum the same now as billions of years ago? Excerpt: But what intrigues (paleo-biologist) J. William Schopf most is lack of change. Schopf was struck 30 years ago by the apparent similarities between some 1-billion-year-old fossils of blue-green bacteria and their modern microbial counterparts. "They surprisingly looked exactly like modern species," Schopf recalls. Now, after comparing data from throughout the world, Schopf and others have concluded that modern pond scum differs little from the ancient blue-greens. "This similarity in morphology is widespread among fossils of [varying] times," says Schopf. As evidence, he cites the 3,000 such fossils found; https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Static+evolution%3A+is+pond+scum+the+same+now+as+billions+of+years+ago%3F-a014909330 Scientists find signs of life in Australia dating back 3.48 billion years - Thu November 14, 2013 Excerpt: “We conclude that the MISS in the Dresser Formation record a complex microbial ecosystem, hitherto unknown, and represent one of the most ancient signs of life on Earth.”... “this MISS displays the same associations that are known from modern as well as fossil” finds. The MISS also shows microbes that act like “modern cyanobacteria,” http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/13/world/asia/australia-ancient-life/
bornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT
JVL at 692, This was uncalled for and referred to as "hitting below the belt." "What would Jesus think about that? What does God think about that? Maybe you should ask him. Maybe he likes cannon fodder. The loyal follower who cannot be turned or deterred. Honourable or just thick? Not that you’ll ask. You’re a true believer. Nothing can stop you. You’re never wrong. You can’t be wrong."relatd
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
01:47 PM
1
01
47
PM
PDT
Dogdoc @
Now we come to our disagreement, where in my view your choice was not free, where “free” requires that the choice was “made for reasons of one’s own choosing”.
At this point I do not wish to discuss your concept of freedom, because that is not the reason why I made my “I exist argument.” You have stated: "... the choice is always based on reasons that ultimately originate externally.” In #289 I have argued that the belief “I exist” originates internally, thereby refuting your claim.
Origenes #289: I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I”, put another way: no one but me can possibly have an informed opinion on this particular subject, therefor whatever I choose to believe about my “I” can only be my absolute responsibility, can only be the result of my fully self-determined choice.
Allow me to add: My “I” is conveyed by (my) introspection solely to me. I am the sole observer of my “I”. And I am the only experiencer of my “I”. My “I” is utterly invisible / inaccessible to others. When I refer to my “I”, I am the only one who knows what he is talking about. When I refer to my “I” in “I exist”, I am the only one who knows what I mean to exist. Therefor I am the only possible origin of my claim “I exist”.Origenes
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
01:44 PM
1
01
44
PM
PDT
Bornagain77: Shubin’s supposed empirical support, (just like all other supposed empirical support for Darwinian evolution), evaporates upon scrutiny. Like I said: you're not really interested in evidence at all. You ask for it and when it contradicts your worldview then you ignore it. I got it. So stop asking for evidence. You will never accept anything that you disagree with. So stop asking for it. If you had an ounce of integrity in you JVL, this should concern you very much I'm not worried because an obvious denier thinks I am wrong. In fact, that makes me think I'm probably right. You don't know. You don't care. You will stick to your guns no matter what anyone says or presents. You are not interested in science or evidence at all. It's really, really clear. You ask for evidence and then pay it no heed. What would Jesus think about that? What does God think about that? Maybe you should ask him. Maybe he likes cannon fodder. The loyal follower who cannot be turned or deterred. Honourable or just thick? Not that you'll ask. You're a true believer. Nothing can stop you. You're never wrong. You can't be wrong.JVL
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
01:43 PM
1
01
43
PM
PDT
JVL, let's put it more clearly so even your Darwinian addled brain can understand it. Shubin's supposed empirical support, (just like all other supposed empirical support for Darwinian evolution), evaporates upon scrutiny. No matter how much you huff and puff JVL, Darwin is not now, nor has it ever been, a hard science:
“There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” – Dr. Robert J. Marks II – Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – June 12, 2017 https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/
Nor for that matter, is Darwinian evolution now, nor has it ever been, based on the inductive methodology of the scientific method. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/life-from-a-rock/#comment-761919 If you had an ounce of integrity in you JVL, this should concern you very muchbornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT
William J Murray @649, Thank you for the link to the interesting study. What I proposed was intended to be a non-human variation of Wigner’s friend. The idea is that we could be living in some sort of information field, which is entangled with our conscious observation. Thus, a fundamental question is, “What constitutes observation?” A similar question is whether the probability wave of a particle has gravitational or electromagnetic properties before it collapses into a particle. Some experiments have been performed regarding this question. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemistry/aharonov-bohm-effect -QQuerius
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
12:34 PM
12
12
34
PM
PDT
Viola Lee @647,
What happens in the experiment if it is set up, and then run in a sealed room with no observers around?
When a human observer observes the result, a chain of collapses occurs (von Neumann chain). IIRC, an experiment was set up to see whether the measuring equipment itself caused a collapse. It was determined that if the equipment recorded, but then immediately erased the data, there was no wavefunction collapse. Incidentally, I’m enjoying the book you recommended, Steven Weinberg’s Dreams of a Final Theory. Thanks again. -QQuerius
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
William J Murray @654,
Things an NPC would say.
Or a trollbot. Another example of shouting “squirrel” at a dog show. -QQuerius
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
Whistler @652,
You talk with yourself with multiple accounts to make your idea more appealling?
I have noticed on occasion some interesting similarities of style that support your suspicion, but I’m not willing to make any specific accusations. In a different forum some years back, people noticed that multiple people who were posting comments made the same spelling errors. Further investigation showed that these other accounts did indeed originate from the same person. I wonder how common this sort of deceptive behavior is at UD. -QQuerius
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
Bornagain77: FYI, Subin’s got nothing. And you know this because you've read his book? No, that's not it. Because you understand the science and have read the actual research behind the narrative? No, that's not it. Could it be that you are just, as usual, parroting the opinion of someone else? Someone who has an agenda. Someone who has a motivated reason for influencing your opinion? You are a poser. You don't do any research yourself. You don't understand the science yourself. You don't even read the materials you link to. You're just the convenient, cannon fodder, true believer who sticks to the party line no matter what. Lovely. You are a pawn, in an ideological game. And you don't even know it. You're dispensable; I trust you know that. Those people who you work so hard to support, they don't care about you. They're not here on this blog defending you. They're not saying: oh wow, you really get it, we'd like to take you into our inner circle and give you a stipend and some responsibility in our cause. Those things are not going to happen. They are going to let you look foolish and ridiculous because they just don't care about you.JVL
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
12:03 PM
12
12
03
PM
PDT
Origenes,
I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I” …
Great. [But just to be clear, as an aside, when you say of Harris or Rosenberg et al that "He doesn't believe he exists", then using your definition, we get "Harris's self's viewpoint is that Harris's self's viewpoint doesn't exist". But of course Harris the human with a body and a social security number etc. would obviously object to that formulation and say you are not representing his view. But let's move on...]
So, when I speak about my choice to believe that “I exist [as consciousness, as a self as conveyed by introspection, as an enduring point of view]”, I am rightly speaking of ‘choice’.
Also great - we are making progress. I agree with this is a choice that you have made, and it is a choice which is not impossible, and that one may choose otherwise. Now we come to our disagreement, where in my view your choice was not free, where "free" requires that the choice was "made for reasons of one's own choosing". Here is why I say that unless one chooses the reasons for one's choice C, then C is not a free choice: If someone implanted beliefs in your mind, or brainwashed you or fooled you somehow into believing something, and that belief led you to make a choice, then that choice would not be free. Thus you must be responsible for choosing the reasons for you choice. And as I've explained endlessly, choosing the reasons for you choices results in a regress that can never be ended by a free choice, but only in unchosen reasons. Your objection is this: You have chosen to believe in your own self (as you've explained above). You have not made this choice randomly, I presume - you have reasons for believing this - but those reasons are entirely self-chosen. As you explain it,
Reponsibility results from, or rather is maintained by, one’s free choices WRT to those external influences (e.g. beliefs). One freely chooses to adopt some beliefs and discard others.
So if we look at what reasons you had for adopting this belief in your self, you cite your research into various belief systems. If we look at the reasons you had for investigating these belief systems, we might cite your curiosity. But how can you take responsibility for being a curious person? Did you deliberate and decide that was the sort of person you wanted to be? Let's say yes you did, and that you could have been incurious. Upon what did you base that decision on? And so on. This regress only ends at some point where it becomes obvious that your reason was unchosen (perhaps at some undeniable axiom, perception, or at the start of your own life).dogdoc
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:58 AM
10
10
58
AM
PDT
WJM,
I think I see the problem here because you keep saying this as if I did not say “free does not mean free from reasons” each time you have responded with this and in almost every comment I have made to you. You are apparently incapable of understanding “free will” in any way other than in terms of your premise; that if “free” doesn’t mean “free from the reasons that are inherent in any instance of will,” then “free will” doesn’t exist.
Let me see if I can clarify this, because I truly believe it is you that doesn't understand my simple point. You say (paraphrased): "Of course free doesn't mean free from reasons! All free choices require reasons! It makes no sense to talk about free choices without reasons!". I say (paraphrased): "A free choice could conceivably be made randomly, arbitrarily, like a mental coin flip, but that type of choice doesn't seem like the sort of free will we want. So let's define "free choice" to mean "a choice that is not causally determined and that is made for some reason(s)". I believe that these two statements are perfectly compatible, and that we are in violent agreement that the sort of "free choices" we're talking about must be predicated upon reasons. But then you say this:
As I said, the term “free” – at least as my definition – refers to an ineffable, top-down, directorial and original-causal capacity that is free from being caused or determined by anything else. This ineffable capacity might be considered a third, vertical axis to the planar axes of will and “reasons.”
Let's make sure we have a shared understanding of this statement by you: 1) People have a certain component or capacity that is the ultimate arbiter of our choices 2) This capacity is not physically determined by antecedent cause 3) This capacity is not purely based on reasons (beliefs, desires) 4) This capacity is also not purely based on will I am struggling to understand this part of your view. In particular, I don't understand why you say this third axis, this capacity to choose, is orthogonal to both will and reasons. I would be tempted to equate this "capacity" to what people call "free will", but you say this capacity is different from will, and oversees both will and reasons.
IOW, wherever you find where will and reasons meet to form an aware choice, in order to actually make a choice there must be another component that actuates picks from the options and activates the preferred choice.
Here I understand you to be saying that our will and reasons combine to form an "aware choice", but there is yet another component (what do we call it?) that makes the "preferred choice". I don't understand this model. I would contrast it with the model I have been discussing, where the person deliberates over their reasons (beliefs, desires, priorities, and so on), and makes a choice based on those. In order to come to a shared understanding, please clarify your model, and then please explain how this third axis, this component or capacity to make actual free choices, determines what choice to make if, as you say, the choice is not purely based on either reasons or will.dogdoc
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
JVL, the only thing that is abundantly clear is that you are a dishonest Darwinian troll who could care less about the truth FYI, Subin's got nothing. https://evolutionnews.org/2022/01/more-fishy-tales-afoot-from-neil-shubin/bornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:24 AM
10
10
24
AM
PDT
Bornagain77: JVL, you just can’t stop yourself from lying can you? Where in your quote does it say that DNA is a 'blueprint'? The existence developmental gene regulatory networks, in and of themselves, and directly contrary to what JVL tried to imply, are completely devastating for Darwinists. Opinion, not fact. Anyway, it looks like we can dispense with the fiction that you actually care about evidence. You (and others) say: show us the evidence. And when someone says: in this resource there is evidence you just ignore or deny it. you might want to check your 95%-98% similarity claim. I didn't make that claim. Your reading comprehension is sorely lacking. And your ability to actually address the central point of an argument. You've clearly shown you are not interested in staying up-to-date with the research and data. IF you really want to know how relatively small DNA changes can induce significant changes in morphology then read the book I cited. It's not expensive, it requires no specialist knowledge, it references historic and recent work, it's fully referenced. But you won't because you're not interested in what is known and what is being discovered. That much is very clear.JVL
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
JVL, not that you care about truth, but you might want to check your 95%-98% similarity claim. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evangelical-scientists-getting-it-wrong/#comment-740245bornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
JVL, "No one (except for ID-ists and creationists) is saying there is a blueprint in DNA. NO ONE. If they are saying that they don’t know what they are talking about. DNA is more like a recipe which says: now, make this. By modifying the control genes you change when certain proteins are made which gives you a different outcome." JVL, you just can't stop yourself from lying can you?
Still Awaiting Engagement: A Reply to Robert Bishop on Darwin's Doubt - Paul Nelson - September 8, 2014 Excerpt: "Neo-Darwinian evolution is uniformitarian in that it assumes that all process works the same way, so that evolution of enzymes or flower colors can be used as current proxies for study of evolution of the body plan. It erroneously assumes that change in protein coding sequence is the basic cause of change in developmental program; and it erroneously assumes that evolutionary change in body plan morphology occurs by a continuous process. All of these assumptions are basically counterfactual. This cannot be surprising, since the neo-Darwinian synthesis from which these ideas stem was a pre-molecular biology concoction focused on population genetics and adaptation natural history, neither of which have any direct mechanistic import for the genomic regulatory systems that drive embryonic development of the body plan." Eric Davidson - 2011 ,, it is difficult to miss Davidson's thrust. As far as the origin of animal body plans is concerned, neo-Darwinism isn't incomplete or insufficient. It is dead wrong.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/still_awaiting_089641.html
The existence developmental gene regulatory networks, in and of themselves, and directly contrary to what JVL tried to imply, are completely devastating for Darwinists.
Developmental gene regulatory networks—an insurmountable impediment to evolution - by Jeffrey P. Tomkins and Jerry Bergman - August 2018 Excerpt: As Davidson has documented, a dGRN that regulates body-plan development “is very impervious to change” and usually leads to “catastrophic loss of the body part or loss of viability altogether”.12 This observable consequence virtually always occurs if even one dGRN subcircuit is interrupted. Because most of these changes are always “catastrophically bad, flexibility is minimal, and since the subcircuits are all interconnected … there is only one way for things to work. And indeed the embryos of each species can develop in only one way.”12 In his book, Intelligent Design proponent Stephen Meyer noted that “Davidson’s work highlights a profound contradiction between the neo-Darwinian account of how new animal body plans are built and one of the most basic principles of engineering—the principle of constraints.”26 As a result, “the more functionally integrated a system is, the more difficult it is to change any part of it without damaging or destroying the system as a whole”.26 Because this system of gene regulation controls animal-body-plan development in such an exquisitely integrated fashion, any significant alterations in its gene regulatory networks inevitably damage or destroy the developing animal. This now-proven fact creates critical problems for the evolution of new animal body plans and the new dGRNs necessary to produce them, preventing gradual evolution via mutation and selection from a pre-existing body plan and set of dGRNs. Developmental biologists openly recognize these clear problems for the standard evolutionary synthesis. The problem as elaborated by Davidson, noted that neo-Darwinian evolution erroneously assumes that all microevolutionary processes equate to macroevolutionary mechanisms, thus producing the false conclusion that the “evolution of enzymes or flower colors can be used as current proxies for study of evolution of the body plan”.12 Typical evolutionary research programs involve studying genetic variation within a species or genus involving inter-fertile natural populations or populations from controlled crosses. From a developmental systems biology perspective, the genes or regulatory features involved in such variability lie at the peripheral nodes and do not explain novel body plans associated with macroevolution. Davidson notes that the standard evolutionary synthesis “erroneously assumes that change in protein-coding sequence is the basic cause of change in [the] developmental program; and it [also] erroneously assumes that evolutionary change in body-plan morphology occurs by a continuous process”.12 Davidson also aptly notes that “these assumptions are basically counterfactual” because the “neo-Darwinian synthesis from which these ideas stem was a pre-molecular biology concoction focused on population genetics and adaptation natural history”.12 Neo-Darwinism in any form does not provide a mechanistic means of changing the genomic regulatory systems that drive embryonic development of the body plan. Alternating the peripheral differentiation process associated with observable variability is an entirely different scenario from building a new form of animal life by changing the fundamental structure of a resilient dGRN.,,, Summary At the very core of the validity of models for macroevolution is how organisms develop. Any form of Darwinian evolution requires that new developmental adaptations arise via random mutations that somehow provide a novel advantageous selectable trait. Decades of developmental genetics research in a wide variety of organisms has documented in detail the fact that once an embryo begins to develop along a certain trajectory, mutations in top and mid-level transcription factor genes in the hierarchy model of regulation described by Davidson cause fatal catastrophe in the program. This mutation-intolerant obstacle poses a complete barrier for the modern Darwinian synthesis, the neutral model, and saltational evolution. Another important aspect of the developmental genetics paradigm is the paradox of conserved protein sequence among top-level transcription factors combined with their intolerance of mutation. It is quite a quandary for the evolutionist—extreme conservation of sequence would seem to support common descent yet lack of mutability negates the fundamental requirement of evolutionary change. An Intelligent Design model, however, would predict that common code serving a general common purpose would be found among unrelated engineered systems that were the work of the same Creator—exactly as we find in man-made systems. https://creation.com/developmental-gene-regulatory-networks Stephen Meyer - Responding to Critics: Marshall, Part 2 (developmental Gene Regulatory Networks) - video?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg8Mhn2EKvQ
Of related note,
Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012 Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,, A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species. On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,, http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view%2FarticleNo%2F33782%2Ftitle%2FEvolution-by-Splicing%2F Widespread Expansion of Protein Interaction Capabilities by Alternative Splicing - 2016 In Brief Alternatively spliced isoforms of proteins exhibit strikingly different interaction profiles and thus, in the context of global interactome networks, appear to behave as if encoded by distinct genes rather than as minor variants of each other.,,, Page 806 excerpt: As many as 100,000 distinct isoform transcripts could be produced from the 20,000 human protein-coding genes (Pan et al., 2008), collectively leading to perhaps over a million distinct polypeptides obtained by post-translational modification of products of all possible transcript isoforms (Smith and Kelleher, 2013). http://iakouchevalab.ucsd.edu/publications/Yang_Cell_OMIM_2016.pdf An Interview with Stephen C. Meyer TT: Is the idea of an original human couple (Adam and Eve) in conflict with science? Does DNA tell us anything about the existence of Adam and Eve? SM:,,, Since the publication of the results of something called the “Encode Project,” however, it has become clear that the noncoding regions of the genome perform many important functions and that, overall, the non-coding regions of the genome function much like an operating system in a computer by regulating the timing and expression of the information stored in the “data files” or coding regions of the genome. Significantly, it has become increasingly clear that the non-coding regions, the crucial operating systems in effect, of the chimp and human genomes are species specific. That is, they are strikingly different in the two species. Yet, if alleged genetic similarity suggests common ancestry, then, by the same logic, this new evidence of significant genetic disparity suggests independent separate origins. For this reason, I see nothing from a genetic point of view that challenges the idea that humans originated independently from primates, http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/scripture-and-science-in-conflict/
bornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:06 AM
10
10
06
AM
PDT
Dogdoc @
DD: We are talking past each, because we failed to define what you, or I, or Harris, et al means when they say “I exist”.
Well, I did not fail to define it. I have been clear about what I mean by "I" in “I exist” from the start of our discussion #289.
Origenes: I choose to hold that “I” exist —— to be clear, with “I” I refer to my consciousness, my viewpoint. I am the only one who has access to my “I” …
DD: As I pointed out (but you ignored), when you say “He thinks he doesn’t exist”, you are speaking ambiguously and equivocating on the two pronouns. The first “He” refers to the person, identifiable as a human being with a unique identity, fingerprints, facial features, education, book authorship, etc.
I take it that now it is clear that with “I” I am not referring to fingerprints, facial features and such.
But what you meant by the second “he” refers to something quite different – the soul, the self as conveyed by introspection, an enduring point of view.
Sure. So, when I speak about my choice to believe that “I exist [as consciousness, as a self as conveyed by introspection, as an enduring point of view]”, I am rightly speaking of ‘choice’. This is elucidated by the fact that Harris, Rosenberg et al have chosen to believe otherwise; they do not share my belief. Good to see that this has been cleared up.Origenes
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PDT
From: https://www.nhbs.com/some-assembly-required-shubin-book
Another powerhouse of innovation is DNA, and genetics can tell us much about evolution. These sections are a giddy ride where Shubin highlights one after another stupendous concept. Take the huge similarity between e.g. chimps and humans. Genome sequencing revealed some 95%-98% similarity. Why are we so different then? Because DNA is not just a molecule containing gene after gene. Like a circuit board, it is a network, where some pieces of DNA function as switches that turn other genes on and off. This is the field of evolutionary development or evo-devo and offers another way for small changes to have big effects. Hox genes control the development of whole body segments and can be repurposed to make e.g. limbs. Most DNA does not even code for anything and Susumu Ohno surmised it results from copying processes gone wild, whether gene, chromosome or whole-DNA duplication. And then there is Barbara McClintock's discovery of jumping genes: selfish genetic elements that multiply and willy-nilly insert themselves all over a DNA molecule. And how about this? If such a jumping gene mutates and becomes a genetic switch, they can insert switches all over a genome. Dramatic new traits that at first sight would require an unlikely number of separate mutations suddenly become a whole lot more plausible. One example Shubin provides is the evolution of pregnancy.
You could at least read the review to see what topics are addressed before you keep making the same claims that have clearly be superseded. Some a long time ago.JVL
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
09:46 AM
9
09
46
AM
PDT
Bornagain77: So similarity in gene sequences supposedly explains widely divergent body plans? Sigh, I'll reproduce the quote again which makes it clear Dr Lehninger is talking about common descent and step-wise, unguided evolution. Assuming there are no other processes or agents involved THEN, yes, you can infer the proliferation of varied body forms but it's not stated directly.
The remarkable similarity of metabolic pathways and gene sequences across the phyla argues strongly that all modern organisms are derived from a common evolutionary progenitor by a series of small changes (mutations), each of which conferred a selective advantage to some organism in some ecological niche.
Bornagain77 quoting someone: There is, in short, nothing in the genomes of fly and man to explain why the fly should have six legs, a pair of wings, and a dot-sized brain and we should have two arms, two legs, and a mind capable of comprehending that overarching history of our universe IF you bothered to read some of the research (as summarised in Neil Shubin's book Some Assembly Required) it has to do with the modification(s) of some of the control genes in many situations. That is, most life forms on Earth are using the same basic proteins (building blocks) but in different numbers at different times. Moreover, believe it or not, when Darwinists first formulated the modern synthesis, they excluded biological form from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis as being ‘irrelevant’ So . . . you're complaining because biologists have changed their minds considering new data and evidence? Yet, (directly contrary to what Darwinists have assumed), biological form is found to be irreducible to mutations to DNA, nor is biological form reducible to any other material particulars, (i.e. proteins, carbohydrates, etc..), in biology that Darwinists may wish to invoke. Read Dr Shubin's book. Again, the building blocks stay the same but when they are built and how many are built affect the morphology. Which means you don't need massive numbers of mutations. As Dr. Jonathan Wells explained, “Studies using saturation mutagenesis in the embryos of fruit flies, roundworms, zebrafish and mice also provide evidence against the idea that DNA specifies the basic form of an organism. Biologists can mutate (and indeed have mutated) a fruit fly embryo in every possible way, and they have invariably observed only three possible outcomes: a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly.” I guess Dr Wells hasn't kept up with the research either. The ‘blueprint’ for the biological form of any given species simply does not reside in DNA as Darwinists had falsely presupposed within their reductive materialistic framework, No one (except for ID-ists and creationists) is saying there is a blueprint in DNA. NO ONE. If they are saying that they don't know what they are talking about. DNA is more like a recipe which says: now, make this. By modifying the control genes you change when certain proteins are made which gives you a different outcome. I'm not a specialist, I'm not a biologist but I read Dr Shubin's book and learned some new things. Why is it that ID proponents can't do the same? OR, is it that they have read and either not understood what was said or deny what was said. Fool or knave? I wonder which . . .JVL
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
The ‘blueprint’ for the biological form of any given species simply does not reside within DNA as Darwinists falsely presuppose within their reductive materialistic framework, As Michael Denton remarks in the following article,’”to date the form of no individual cell has been shown to be specified in detail in a genomic blueprint.”
The Types: A Persistent Structuralist Challenge to Darwinian Pan-Selectionism – Michael J. Denton – 2013 Excerpt: Cell form ,,,Karsenti comments that despite the attraction of the (genetic) blueprint model there are no “simple linear chains of causal events that link genes to phenotypes” [77: p. 255]. And wherever there is no simple linear causal chain linking genes with phenotypes,,,—at any level in the organic hierarchy, from cells to body plans—the resulting form is bound to be to a degree epigenetic and emergent, and cannot be inferred from even the most exhaustive analysis of the genes.,,, To this author’s knowledge, to date the form of no individual cell has been shown to be specified in detail in a genomic blueprint. As mentioned above, between genes and mature cell form there is a complex hierarchy of self-organization and emergent phenomena, rendering cell form profoundly epigenetic. http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2013.3/BIO-C.2013.3
And as Paul Davies stated, “DNA is not a blueprint for an organism,,,, Rather, DNA is a (mostly) passive repository for transcription of stored data into RNA,”
(Paul) Davies And Walker On Origin Of Life: Life As Information – March 7, 2020 Excerpt: However, the genome is only a small part of the story. DNA is not a blueprint for an organism:1 no information is actively processed by DNA alone [17]. Rather, DNA is a (mostly) passive repository for transcription of stored data into RNA, some (but by no means all) of which goes on to be translated into proteins. The biologically relevant information stored in DNA therefore has very little to do with its specific chemical nature (beyond the fact that it is a digital linear polymer). https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/davies-and-walker-on-origin-of-life-life-as-information/
And as Antony Jose stated, “DNA cannot be seen as the ‘blueprint’ for life,”,,, “It is at best an overlapping and potentially scrambled list of ingredients that is used differently by different cells at different times.”,,,
DNA may not be life’s instruction book—just a jumbled list of ingredients – Kimbra Cutlip, University of Maryland – APRIL 22, 2020 Excerpt: The common view of heredity is that all information passed down from one generation to the next is stored in an organism’s DNA. But Antony Jose, associate professor of cell biology and molecular genetics at the University of Maryland, disagrees. In two new papers, Jose argues that DNA is just the ingredient list, not the set of instructions used to build and maintain a living organism.,,, ,,, “DNA cannot be seen as the ‘blueprint’ for life,” Jose said. “It is at best an overlapping and potentially scrambled list of ingredients that is used differently by different cells at different times.” ,,, In addition, scientists are unable to determine the complex shape of an organ such as an eye, or that a creature will have eyes at all, by reading the creature’s DNA. These fundamental aspects of anatomy are dictated by something outside of the DNA. https://phys.org/news/2020-04-dna-life-bookjust-jumbled-ingredients.html
And this failure of the reductive materialistic framework of Darwinists to explain biological form occurs at a much lower level than DNA itself. Specifically, in the following article entitled ‘Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics’, which studied the derivation of macroscopic properties from a complete microscopic description, the researchers remark that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, The researchers further commented that their findings challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.”
Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics – December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, “We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s,” added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. “So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists’ point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description.” http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html
In short, Darwinists simply have no justification whatsoever from empirical evidence, nor within physical science itself, to presuppose that their 'bottom-up' reductive materialistic framework is capable of explaining the overarching biological form of any given species.
Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;,,,"
bornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
As to this claim: "The remarkable similarity of metabolic pathways and gene sequences across the phyla argues strongly that all modern organisms are derived from a common evolutionary progenitor by a series of small changes (mutations), each of which conferred a selective advantage to some organism in some ecological niche." So similarity in gene sequences supposedly explains widely divergent body plans? As is usual with "Darwinian science", that does not even pass the smell test, i.e. "Contrary to all expectations, many DNA sequences involved in embryo development are remarkably similar across the vast spectrum of organismic complexity, from a millimeter-long worm to ourselves.7 There is, in short, nothing in the genomes of fly and man to explain why the fly should have six legs, a pair of wings, and a dot-sized brain and we should have two arms, two legs, and a mind capable of comprehending that overarching history of our universe."
Between Sapientia and Scientia — Michael Aeschliman’s Profound Interpretation -James Le Fanu - September 9, 2019 Excerpt: The ability to spell out the full sequence of genes should reveal, it was reasonable to assume, the distinctive genetic instructions that determine the diverse forms of the millions of species, so readily distinguishable one from the other. Biologists were thus understandably disconcerted to discover precisely the reverse to be the case. Contrary to all expectations, many DNA sequences involved in embryo development are remarkably similar across the vast spectrum of organismic complexity, from a millimeter-long worm to ourselves.7 There is, in short, nothing in the genomes of fly and man to explain why the fly should have six legs, a pair of wings, and a dot-sized brain and we should have two arms, two legs, and a mind capable of comprehending that overarching history of our universe. So we have moved in the very recent past from supposing we might know the principles of genetic inheritance to recognizing we have no realistic conception of what they might be. As Phillip Gell, professor of genetics at the University of Birmingham, observed, “This gap in our knowledge is not merely unbridged, but in principle unbridgeable and our ignorance will remain ineluctable.”8 https://evolutionnews.org/2019/09/between-sapientia-and-scientia-michael-aeschlimans-profound-interpretation/
Moreover, believe it or not, when Darwinists first formulated the modern synthesis, they excluded biological form from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis as being ‘irrelevant’
On the problem of biological form – Marta Linde-Medina (2020) Excerpt: Embryonic development, which inspired the first theories of biological form, was eventually excluded from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis, (neo-Darwinism) as irrelevant.,,, At present, the problem of biological form remains unsolved. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12064-020-00317-3
Yet, in spite of the fact that Darwinists themselves excluded biological form from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis as being ‘irrelevant’, Darwinists still assume, (apparently without any discernible justification), that changes to DNA have the potential to eventually change the basic biological form and/or body plan of any given species into a brand new body plan of a brand new species. Yet, (directly contrary to what Darwinists have assumed), biological form is found to be irreducible to mutations to DNA, nor is biological form reducible to any other material particulars, (i.e. proteins, carbohydrates, etc..), in biology that Darwinists may wish to invoke. As Dr. Jonathan Wells explained, “Studies using saturation mutagenesis in the embryos of fruit flies, roundworms, zebrafish and mice also provide evidence against the idea that DNA specifies the basic form of an organism. Biologists can mutate (and indeed have mutated) a fruit fly embryo in every possible way, and they have invariably observed only three possible outcomes: a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly.”
Jonathan Wells: Far from being all-powerful, DNA does not wholly determine biological form – March 31, 2014 Excerpt: Studies using saturation mutagenesis in the embryos of fruit flies, roundworms, zebrafish and mice also provide evidence against the idea that DNA specifies the basic form of an organism. Biologists can mutate (and indeed have mutated) a fruit fly embryo in every possible way, and they have invariably observed only three possible outcomes: a normal fruit fly, a defective fruit fly, or a dead fruit fly. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/jonathan-wells-far-from-being-all-powerful-dna-does-not-wholly-determine-biological-form/ Response to John Wise – October 2010 Excerpt: But there are solid empirical grounds for arguing that changes in DNA alone cannot produce new organs or body plans. A technique called “saturation mutagenesis”1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12. None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans–,,, (As Jonathan Wells states),,, We can modify the DNA of a fruit fly embryo in any way we want, and there are only three possible outcomes: A normal fruit fly; A defective fruit fly; or A dead fruit fly. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.html
And as Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig points out, “even after inducing literally billions of induced mutations and (further) chromosome rearrangements”,,, “the law of recurrent variation is endlessly corroborated”…
Peer-Reviewed Research Paper on Plant Biology Favorably Cites Intelligent Design and Challenges Darwinian Evolution – Casey Luskin December 29, 2010 Excerpt: Many of these researchers also raise the question (among others), why — even after inducing literally billions of induced mutations and (further) chromosome rearrangements — all the important mutation breeding programs have come to an end in the Western World instead of eliciting a revolution in plant breeding, either by successive rounds of selective “micromutations” (cumulative selection in the sense of the modern synthesis), or by “larger mutations” … and why the law of recurrent variation is endlessly corroborated by the almost infinite repetition of the spectra of mutant phenotypes in each and any new extensive mutagenesis experiment instead of regularly producing a range of new systematic species… (Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, “Mutagenesis in Physalis pubescens L. ssp. floridana: Some Further Research on Dollo’s Law and the Law of Recurrent Variation,” Floriculture and Ornamental Biotechnology Vol. 4 (Special Issue 1): 1-21 (December 2010).) https://evolutionnews.org/2010/12/peer-reviewed_research_paper_o/ Dr. Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, (retired) Senior Scientist (Biology), Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research, Emeritus, Cologne, Germany.
Moreover Jonathan Wells, in the following video, demonstrates that the Central Dogma of molecular biology, (which states (in effect) that DNA, makes RNA, makes protein, makes us), is incorrect at every step,
Design Beyond DNA: A Conversation with Dr. Jonathan Wells – video – January 2017 https://youtu.be/ASAaANVBoiE
bornagain77
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
09:06 AM
9
09
06
AM
PDT
Kairosfocus: That is utterly irrelevant to the point I cited Not exactly, it shows that someone who spent decades of his life studying the phenomena you assert was designed disagreed with you, strongly disagreed. And that makes your hijacking of his image disingenuous in the extreme, hoping that someone will think the original author is sympathetic to your views. Kind of like one of Bornagain77's copy-and-paste flurries but with images instead of text. Show us one of your in-cell coded algorithms. You claim they exist, let's see one.JVL
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
I like how he says "niche". ;)Alan Fox
October 13, 2022
October
10
Oct
13
13
2022
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
1 3 4 5 6 7 28

Leave a Reply