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Is water older than the sun?

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Dr Sheldon
Rob Sheldon

Rob Sheldon comments on the recent claim that water might be older than the sun:

Water is made of hydrogen and oxygen, but the debate is all about the hydrogen. There are 2 stable isotopes of hydrogen, light and heavy, or 1H and 2D for deuterium. The deuterium to hydrogen ratio in water (and other compounds but water is the most common) has been debated and measured in many locations. The Sun does not make deuterium, but it is the first thing that it burns up (if H is charcoal, D is lighter fluid). The only supply of deuterium–like hydrogen itself–is the Big Bang. So any hydrogen that has been processed through stellar furnaces will lose deuterium.

The earth’s oceans have higher D/H ratios than the sun, so the question has been around for a long time, where did Earth get its oceans? The standard model has been that comets supplied the water for the Earth’s oceans during the “Late Heavy Bombardment” some 3.85 billion years ago. Comets are thought to come from a vast cloud–the Oort Cloud–orbiting the Sun about 1 lightyear away. The gravitational attraction is so weak, that just about anything can change their orbit, and people have suggested passing stars or even gamma-ray bursts are enough to scatter comets, some of which end up making close encounters with the inner solar system and us.

These Oort Cloud comets are thought to predate the Sun, and are leftovers from the “proto-solar nebula” that made the Sun and the planets. Where did this nebula come from? Well our Sun is just 4.5 billion years old, the nebula maybe 5 billion years old, but our Milky Way galaxy is 12 billion years old. So there have been many supernova and Wolf-Rayet stars that shed dust into the galaxy from which our planet’s silicon and carbon and oxygen come from. But the one thing they cannot make, is deuterium. So the deuterium has to be primordial.

Here’s a paper from January 2014 arguing this sort of point: http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.6035 “Chemo-dynamical deuterium fractionation in the early solar nebula: The origin of water on Earth and in asteroids and comets” The word “fractionation” is the keyword–they want to find a way to make the D/H ratio go up by distillation (lighter H heads out toward Jupiter, heavier D stays near the Earth), so that we don’t need extra primordial ice to make the oceans. Their conclusion is that they can explain away the anomaly using locally made materials. This is the standard model, even if it needs a bit of tweaking. After all, if all the silicon and oxygen and carbon was made locally in stars, then most of the deuterium should have been processed locally too.

Then along comes Lauren Ilsedore Cleeves. She is part of team on the Hershel IR telescope that observes a distant proto-stellar nebula with lots of really cold water in it, publishes a 2011 paper, http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.4600 “Detection of the Water Reservoir in a Forming Planetary System”. Her team interprets it as ice grains which sputter water vapor from cosmic rays. And there’s lots of it. It appears that proto-stellar disks are full of primordial ice, rather than recycled supernovae or Wolf-Rayet water. Hence, this paper in Science, where she does a really *big* simulation and says the D/H water in the Earth’s oceans can’t be fractionated in the proto-planetary nebula, it must be interstellar.

Okay, we know why its controversial, but why is this important?

Well, for one thing, if it is interstellar, it means that our galaxy is chock full of water, and then every other planetary system that we’ve spotted could easily have water in it. This is the justification for “planet-finding” missions. (Of course, none of the extra-solar planets have the right temperature, composition, and size to look like a twin of Earth, but that’s a different problem.)

But unfortunately, Cleeves has proven too much. If the water is interstellar, then it wasn’t made in stars–which of course would ruin the D/H ratio too. But if it wasn’t made in stars, then it is primordial, Big Bang created. But if it is primordial, then where did the oxygen in the water come from, since the BB doesn’t make oxygen? Cleeves has solved one problem–the elevated D/H ratio–by creating another–the origin of Oxygen in the interstellar water.

Now as it happens, I’m working on a theory and simulation that says that the Big Bang *did* make oxygen, lots of it, so that the missing “dark matter” of the galaxies is nothing more nor less than ice, as found in comets. And since we have already shown that comets carry fossil bacteria and bio-engineered magnetites, then we don’t need to wait for the planet-finder mission to find us a Cinderella-zone Earthlike planet–we have billions of habitable comets moving in and out of Cinderella zones, flourishing and freezing like the mosquito population of Canada.

Canada? Will keep file open, Sgt Dale of the Mounted! No, but seriously, Canadians are not as stupid as you think.

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Charles Darwin himself was shown to be wrong about a geological formation he predicted to have been formed gradually. Yet, it is now known to have been formed by a catastrophic megaflood,,,
Where Darwin Went Wrong – Argentina Megaflood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3darzVqzV2o Explaining Inland Seas Without a Flood ? – October 5, 2012 Excerpt: The Flood explains these (ancient giant) lakes in a straightforward and plausible manner. Austin also found evidence for a catastrophic dam breach that explains the Santa Cruz river canyon in Argentina, a river that had misled Charles Darwin to believe in Lyell’s slow and gradual millions of years. http://crev.info/2012/10/explaining-inland-seas-without-a-flood/ South America Excerpt: Ironically, the site with perhaps the best claim to a pre-12,000 BP date in the Americas is among the farthest south, Monte Verde, in south central Chile. Here Tom Dillehay and his crew have excavated a camp site that has been radiocarbon-dated to about 13,000 years ago, and below the levels of that age are layers of tools and debris that may be much older, perhaps up to 33,000 years old.(26),,, Dozens and dozens of hulking blocks lay scattered in all directions, tossed like matchsticks, Posnansky argued, in the terrible natural disaster that had overtaken Tiahuanaco during the eleventh millennium BC: This catastrophe was caused by seismic movements which resulted in an overflow of the waters of Lake Titicaca and in volcanic eruptions… In addition, fragments of human and animal skeletons had been found lying in chaotic disorder among wrought stones, utensils, tools and an endless variety of other things. All of this has been moved, broken and accumulated in a confused heap. Anyone who would dig a trench here two metres deep could not deny that the destructive force of water, in combination with brusque movements of the earth, must have accumulated those different kinds of bones, mixing them with pottery, jewels, tools and utensils…(152) http://humanpast.net/environment/environment11k.htm Sea Level Rise, After the Ice Melted and Today – By Vivien Gornitz — January 2007 Excerpt: Massive ice sheets covered parts of North America, northern Europe, and several other regions during the last ice age. This huge volume of ice lowered global sea level by around 120 meters as compared to today.,,, A more clearly-defined accelerated phase of sea level rise occurred between 14,600 to 13,500 years before present (termed “meltwater pulse 1A” or “MWP-1A” by Fairbanks in 1989), when sea level increased by some 16 to 24 m (see Figure 1). http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/gornitz_09/ Underwater Constructions: There are several well-known examples of underwater structures around the world ……their existence raises questions over the established view of prehistoric events. http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/underwater.htm From Atlantis to the Modern World Excerpt: The evidence of the antediluvian world now lies up to 400 feet below sea level. It consists of massive man made complexes off the shores of Japan and elsewhere in 500 other under water sites around the world discovered since 1997 and in underwater caves that have structures that can only form above sea level. It also exists in structures all over the Canadian shield that can only be attributed to massive glaciation. Huge gouges exist in solid granite, carved out by boulders. Huge boulders not native to the regions where they are found, suggest that they were dropped their by glaciers and or massive floods. Massive tombs of broken trees and animal bones crushed together exist in places like Alaska and Oregon. Two separate Clovis peoples are evident pre and post, but not during 12,600 years ago throughout N. America. The age of the Niagara escarpment is exactly 12,600 years old and it was formed by a massive earthquake of about Richter 11 at that time. All of these attest to great forces and sudden catastrophes. http://syzygyastro.hubpages.com/hub/From-Atlantis-to-the-Modern-World Coral links ice to ancient ‘mega flood’ – March 30, 2012 Excerpt: ,,,has confirmed that the event occurred 14,650-14,310 years ago at the same time as a period of rapid climate change known as the Bølling warming.,,, The team has used dating evidence from Tahitian corals to constrain the sea level rise to within a period of 350 years, although the actual rise may well have occurred much more quickly. http://phys.org/news/2012-03-coral-links-ice-ancient-mega.html#nRlv
something else that may be of interest: scientific evidence for catastrophic megafloods, across the globe, approx. 13 to 14 thousand years before the present has now become compelling:
Humanpast.net Excerpt: Worldwide, we know that the period of 14,000 to 13,000 years ago, which coincides with the peak of abundant monsoonal rains over India, was marked by violent oceanic flooding – in fact, the first of the three great episodes of global superfloods that dominated the meltdown of the Ice Age. The flooding was fed not merely by rain but by the cataclysmic synchronous collapse of large ice-masses on several different continents and by gigantic inundations of meltwater pouring down river systems into the oceans. (124) What happened, at around 13,000 years ago, was that the long period of uninterrupted warming that the world had just passed through (and that had greatly intensified, according to some studies, between 15,000 years ago and 13,000 years ago) was instantly brought to a halt – all at once, everywhere – by a global cold event known to palaeo climatologists as the ‘Younger Dryas’ or ‘Dryas III’. In many ways mysterious and unexplained, this was an almost unbelievably fast climatic reversion – from conditions that are calculated to have been warmer and wetter than today’s 13,000 years ago, to conditions that were colder and drier than those at the Last Glacial Maximum, not much more than a thousand years later. From that moment, around 12,800 years ago, it was as though an enchantment of ice had gripped the earth. In many areas that had been approaching terminal meltdown full glacial conditions were restored with breathtaking rapidity and all the gains that had been made since the LGM were simply stripped away…(124) A great, sudden extinction took place on the planet, perhaps as recently as 11,500 years ago (usually attributed to the end of that last ice age), in which hundreds of mammal and plant species disappeared from the face of the earth, driven into deep caverns and charred muck piles the world over. Modern science, with all its powers and prejudices, has been unable to adequately explain this event. (83) http://humanpast.net/environment/environment11k.htm Missoula Floods “between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods Catastrophic Flooding from Ancient Lake May Have Triggered Cold Period Excerpt: Imagine a lake three times the size of the present-day Lake Ontario breaking through a dam and flooding down the Hudson River Valley past New York City and into the North Atlantic. The results would be catastrophic if it happened today, but it did happen some 13,400 years ago during the retreat of glaciers over North America http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=9779&tid=282&cid=2078&ct=162 Mega-flood triggered cooling 13,000 years ago: scientists – March 2010 Excerpt: Bateman and his team confirmed the path of the floodwaters from Lake Agassiz that covered part of what is now Canada and the northern United States. The lake had formed in front of the ice-sheet that once covered a large part of North America. Scientists had previously guessed that a giant flood unleashed from the lake probably caused the Younger Dryas cooling but couldn’t confirm the route of the floodwaters. Bateman found that the waters flowed down the Mackenzie River, Canada’s longest, rather than the Saint Lawrence Seaway that had previously seemed the most likely route. Studying sediments from cliff sections along the river delta, he said the evidence spanned a large area at many altitudes. This could only be explained by a mega-flood from Lake Agassiz. Dating of the sediments helped the team pin down the date of the flooding, showing that it occurred right at the start of the Younger Dryas. http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/31/us-climate-cooling-flood-idUSTRE62U44D20100331 Lake Bonneville and the Bonneville Flood Excerpt: Ice Age Lake Bonneville, which existed around 14,500 years ago, covered more than 20,000 square miles in Utah and parts of Idaho and Nevada. For hundreds of years, the water level of Lake Bonneville maintained a fairly constant level. The water level dropped almost 400 feet when part of Red Rock Pass, which was holding back the water, eroded. The floodwaters flowed down the Snake River and joined the Columbia River near the Tri-Cities. For a short period of time, the resulting floodwaters from Lake Bonneville increased the size of the Snake River and the Columbia River by more than 20 times their normal flow. After the flood occurred, the water levels of the Great Salt Lake eventually subsided close to what they are now. Lake Bonneville drained only once, with catastrophic results. http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Glossary/Glaciers/IceSheets/description_lake_bonneville.html The Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone According to Ken Pierce, U.S. Geological Survey geologist, at the end of the last glacial period, about 14,000 to 18,000 years ago, ice dams formed at the mouth of Yellowstone Lake. When the ice dams melted, a great volume of water was released downstream causing massive flash floods and immediate and catastrophic erosion of the present-day canyon. http://www.nationalparktravel.com/geology.htm Ancient Earth Flood Created Martian-Like Landscape, Researchers Find – July 2010 Excerpt: This summer, he will continue the work he started at Mason by traveling to Siberia to study a series of mega floods that happened between 45,000 and 13,000 years ago. http://news.gmu.edu/articles/3416
BA writes: Verse:
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
But don't forget the description of day one in Genesis 1:1-2!
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
It doesn't exactly match the Big Bang theory with the earth being created much much later in time and originating as a hot molten mass, but let's not sweat the details. There is also the verse that says:
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
Could this have something to do with the waters above? Anyway, the idea that water might predate the sun is not strange according to the Bible. We have water in v. 2 on day 1 and the sun on day 4. So it is a definite possibility. tjguy
#7 VunderGuy, There has been a series of papers on comets and fossils, since about 1961 when Nagy found them. A more recent viral paper was Hoover's 2011--http://www.panspermia.org/hoovermeteorites.pdf originally published at the Journal of Cosmology. Hoover found cyanobacteria--prokaryotes--but Wickramasinghe found diatoms -- eukaryotic algae-- on a meteorite that fell in Sri Lanka in 2012. Here's a recent blurb from his university: http://www.buckingham.ac.uk/research/bcab/news The bio-engineered magnetites was my work, published in the SPIE journal, but also on my home page: http://rbsp.info/rbs/RbS/PDF/spie12.pdf Robert Sheldon
Rob, you say "so that the missing “dark matter” of the galaxies is nothing more nor less than ice". My understanding is that dark matter was postulated to explain the discrepancy between the mass required to produce the observed gravitational attraction and the amount of actual matter we observe in the universe. i.e whatever dark matter is it lacks some of the properties of "matter", and it cannot, by definition, be matter made up of protons, nuetrons, and electrons. Tamara Knight
"And since we have already shown that comets carry fossil bacteria and bio-engineered magnetites" Wait, when was that shown? VunderGuy
Yikes! And what an eye-popping illustration! -Q Querius
Thanks Querius, here is another interesting tidbit on water from Michael Denton: The Cold Trap: How It Works - Michael Denton - May 10, 2014 Excerpt: As water vapor ascends in the atmosphere, it cools and condenses out, forming clouds and rain and snow and falling back to the Earth. This process becomes very intense at the so-called tropopause (17-10 km above sea level) where air temperatures reach -80°C and all remaining water in the atmosphere is frozen out. The air in the layer of the atmosphere above the troposphere in the stratosphere (extending up to 50 km above mean sea level) is absolutely dry, containing oxygen, nitrogen, some CO and the other atmospheric gases, but virtually no H2O molecules.,,, ,,,above 80-100 km, atoms and molecules are subject to intense ionizing radiation. If water ascended to this level it would be photo-dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen and, the hydrogen being very light, lost into space. Over a relatively short geological period all the water and oceans would be evaporated and the world uninhabitable.,,, Oxygen, having a boiling point of -183°C, has no such problems ascending through the tropopause cold trap into the stratosphere. As it does, it becomes subject to more and more intense ionizing radiation. However this leads,, to the formation of ozone (O3). This forms a protective layer in the atmosphere above the tropopause, perfectly placed just above the cold trap and preventing any ionizing radiation in the far UV region from reaching the H2O molecules at the tropopause and in the troposphere below. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/the_cold_trap_h085441.html ============ How much water is there on, in, and above the Earth? Excerpt: Do you notice that "tiny" bubble over Atlanta, Georgia? That one represents fresh water in all the lakes and rivers on the planet, and most of the water people and life of earth need every day comes from these surface-water sources. The volume of this sphere is about 22,339 mi3 (93,113 km3). The diameter of this sphere is about 34.9 miles (56.2 kilometers). http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthhowmuch.html bornagain77
Amazing! Thanks for sharing the links and your comments, bornagain77! Also necessary for life is that the volume of water increases as it freezes, so ice floats. Otherwise, the water on the Earth would freeze from the bottom of the ocean up. Water is the only non-metallic substance on Earth with this property. -Q Querius
supplemental note:
Water carrying only the electromagnetic signature of a DNA sequence can make a replica of the sequence out of simple building blocks, Nobel laureate HIV researcher shows. Excerpt: When Noble laureate HIV researcher Luc Montagnier discovered that certain bacterial and viral DNA sequences dissolved in water causes electromagnetic signals to be emitted at high dilutions, that was bad enough. Now, new results from his lab appear to show that the DNA sequence itself could be reconstituted from the electromagnetic signal. That has so stunned the scientific community that one prominent supporter was nonetheless moved to remark: “Luc is either a genius or he is mad!” But some quantum physicists are taking that very seriously, and are linking Montagnier’s findings to decades of research demonstrating the sensitivity of organisms to extremely weak electromagnetic fields. http://www.i-sis.org.uk/DNA_sequence_reconstituted_from_Water_Memory.php
also - hot water pipes freeze up BEFORE the cold lines freeze. wayne moss
Water on Earth predates the solar system, and even the sun - Sept. 26, 2014 Excerpt: Some of the water molecules in your drinking glass were created more than 4.5 billion years ago, according to new research. That makes them older than the Earth, older than the solar system — even older than the sun itself. In a study published Thursday in Science, researchers say the distinct chemical signature of the water on Earth and throughout the solar system could occur only if some of that water formed before the swirling disk of dust and gas gave birth to the planets, moons, comets and asteroids. This primordial water makes up 30% to 50% of the water on Earth, the researchers estimate. “It’s pretty amazing that a significant fraction of water on Earth predates the sun and the solar system,” http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-old-water-on-earth-20140923-story.html
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Notes: When we look at water, the most common substance on earth and in our bodies, we find many odd characteristics which clearly appear to be designed. These oddities are absolutely essential for life on earth. Some simple life can exist without the direct energy of sunlight, some simple life can exist without oxygen; but no life can exist without water. Water is called a universal solvent because it has the unique ability to dissolve a far wider range of substances than any other solvent. This 'universal solvent' ability of water is essential for the cells of living organisms to process the wide range of substances necessary for life. Another oddity is water expands as it becomes ice, by an increase of about 9% in volume. Thus, water floats when it becomes a solid instead of sinking. This is an exceedingly rare ability. Yet if it were not for this fact, lakes and oceans would freeze from the bottom up. The earth would be a frozen wasteland, and human life would not be possible. Water also has the unusual ability to pull itself into very fine tubes and small spaces, defying gravity. This is called capillary action. This action is essential for the breakup of mineral bearing rocks into soil. Water pulls itself into tiny spaces on the surface of a rock and freezes; it expands and breaks the rock into tinier pieces, thus producing soil. Capillary action is also essential for the movement of water through soil to the roots of plants. It is also essential for the movement of water from the roots to the tops of the plants, even to the tops of the mighty redwood trees,,,
Towering Giants Of Teleological Beauty - October 2010 https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/intelligent-design/towering-giants-of-teleological-beauty/
,,,Capillary action is also essential for the circulation of the blood in our very own capillary blood vessels. Water's melting and boiling point are not where common sense would indicate they should be when we look at its molecular weight. The three sister compounds of water all behave as would be predicted by their molecular weight. Oddly, water just happens to have melting and boiling points that are of optimal biological utility. The other properties of water we measure, like its specific slipperiness (viscosity) and its ability to absorb and release more heat than any other natural substance, have to be as they are in order for life to be possible on earth. Even the oceans have to be the size they are in order to stabilize the temperature of the earth so human life may be possible. On and on through each characteristic we can possibly measure water with, it turns out to be required to be almost exactly as it is or complex life on this earth could not exist. No other liquid in the universe comes anywhere near matching water in its fitness for life (Denton: Nature's Destiny). Here is a more complete list of the many anomalous life enabling properties of water:
Anomalous life enabling properties of water http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/anmlies.html Water's remarkable capabilities - December 2010 - Peer Reviewed Excerpt: All these traits are contained in a simple molecule of only three atoms. One of the most difficult tasks for an engineer is to design for multiple criteria at once. ... Satisfying all these criteria in one simple design is an engineering marvel. Also, the design process goes very deep since many characteristics would necessarily be changed if one were to alter fundamental physical properties such as the strong nuclear force or the size of the electron. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/pro-intelligent_design_peer_re042211.html
The fine tuning of water extends all the way down to the quantum level
Water's quantum weirdness makes life possible - October 2011 Excerpt: WATER'S life-giving properties exist on a knife-edge. It turns out that life as we know it relies on a fortuitous, but incredibly delicate, balance of quantum forces.,,, They found that the hydrogen-oxygen bonds were slightly longer than the deuterium-oxygen ones, which is what you would expect if quantum uncertainty was affecting water’s structure. “No one has ever really measured that before,” says Benmore. We are used to the idea that the cosmos’s physical constants are fine-tuned for life. Now it seems water’s quantum forces can be added to this “just right” list. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.900-waters-quantum-weirdness-makes-life-possible.html
Moreover, it seems apparent that water was 'designed' with protein folding in mind:
Protein Folding: One Picture Per Millisecond Illuminates The Process - 2008 Excerpt: The RUB-chemists initiated the folding process and then monitored the course of events. It turned out that within less than ten milliseconds, the motions of the water network were altered as well as the protein itself being restructured. “These two processes practically take place simultaneously“, Prof. Havenith-Newen states, “they are strongly correlated.“ These observations support the yet controversial suggestion that water plays a fundamental role in protein folding, and thus in protein function, and does not stay passive. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080805075610.htm Water Is 'Designer Fluid' That Helps Proteins Change Shape - 2008 Excerpt: "When bound to proteins, water molecules participate in a carefully choreographed ballet that permits the proteins to fold into their functional, native states. This delicate dance is essential to life." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080806113314.htm Water found to be an ideal lubricant for nanomachines - September 1, 2013 Excerpt: Researchers from the University of Amsterdam have discovered that machines just one molecule in size move far quicker if you add a 'lubricant' to their surroundings. To their surprise, water proved to be the best lubricant by far. http://phys.org/news/2013-08-ideal-lubricant-nanomachines.html
Verse and Music:
John 4:13-15 Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." The woman said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."… Alison Krauss – Down in the River to Pray https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VLKngHexeU

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