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Darwin-loving New Scientist trying to help creationists with Noah’s Ark problem


My eyes popped out with this headline from none other than Darwin-loving, ID-despising, creationist-hating New Scientist:
Tree of Bird Life Could Solve Noah’s Ark Problem


GENETICS could help solve the Noah’s Ark problem: faced with limited space, which species do you save? Focusing on the most evolutionarily unique and ancient species could allow us to save more branches of the tree of life, at the lowest cost and effort.

Now a genetic analysis has found the most unique birds and identified 113 locations that hold more than half the global avian evolutionary diversity. The findings will be used to focus conservation efforts where they will have the biggest impact.

Conservationists tend to focus on a few big-name species, like lions. For example, 70 per cent of mammal funding goes to three of 26 families, says Samuel Turvey of the Zoological Society of London (ZSL).

But animals like big cats have limited evolutionary value. That’s because they are closely related to many species, so if they died out most of their genes would live on. For species with few close relatives, losing them would wipe out all their genes. Instead of trimming twigs from the tree of life, we would lose whole branches (see “Oddities in danger”).

A ZSL initiative called EDGE of Existence has been running since 2007, with the aim of preserving evolutionarily distinct species. It has ranked the world’s mammals and amphibians according to how unique and threatened they are. But most conservation funding ignores how unique species are.

“It’s not that we need to stop what we’re doing now,” says Carly Waterman, EDGE of Existence’s programme manager. But she says conservationists need to put more effort into preserving the branches of the tree of life.

“We can be smarter,” says Walter Jetz of Yale University. In as-yet-unpublished research, he ranked the world’s birds in terms of evolutionary distinctness. For the first time, birds can be prioritised based on how unique, abundant and endangered they are.

To do this, Jetz drew an evolutionary tree of birds using genetic data from 6500 of the 10,000 bird species, which told him which were the most unique. He then combined that with data on threats and population sizes. Jetz presented his preliminary results at a Royal Society meeting in London earlier this month.

EDGE of Existence will launch a list of the 100 priority birds, based on Jetz’s work, in the coming weeks.

@ AVS "Oh yeah, all that “empirical evidence” behind theistic claims. Man you guys are funny." Lol.. What's funny is your self proclaimed erudition on just about everything. Have you ever wondered why pretty much everyone at UD ignores you? KRock
Oh yeah, all that "empirical evidence" behind theistic claims. Man you guys are funny. AVS
BA77: I am reasonably confident from multiple intersecting lines of empirical evidence that the Theistic claims for the beginning of the universe are true.
Me too. CentralScrutinizer
CentralScrutinizer, sorry if ex-nihilo confused you. When I use the term ex-nihilo, I don't mean that the universe was created literally out of nothing at all. I mean that the universe was created out of that which is not seen, i.e. information?!?. And again I point out that the empirical evidence we now have lends strong support to my position that the universe, all matter-energy and space-time, came into being instantaneously at the big bang and that the Bible uniquely predicted this. Whereas your 'you were not there so don't pretend to know what happened' objection borders on ad hominem defending unquestioned dogma. Myself, I am reasonably confident from multiple intersecting lines of empirical evidence that the Theistic claims for the beginning of the universe are true. Whether you accept them or not, I don't care, but don't pretend that the question is completely off limits because that simply is not so. i.e. 'That's the beauty of science'! bornagain77
CS: Nobody knows how macroevolution works. Don’t pretend you know. You weren’t there when the first fish crawled out of the sea and eventually sprouted legs. Barb: Works both ways, apparently.
What does that have to do with me? CentralScrutinizer
BA77: ahhh but that is the beauty of science. Just as we can be confident in the inference of design, even though we ‘were not there’, We can also infer with a reasonable degree of confidence that God created the universe out of ‘information’.
Information is not "nothing." And something has to be processing that information. Again, not "nothing." Whatever that is, is impossible to say. Don't pretend you know. It just makes you look foolish. CentralScrutinizer
Let's reword what CentralScrutinizer is saying: "You are free to believe whatever you want, but you have no empirical idea if the universe was created ex nihilo or not. Were you there?" You are free to believe whatever you want, but you have no empirical idea if natural selection is responsible for the diversity of life on Earth or not. Were you there? And: "Lots of things have beginnings. That doesn’t mean they were created “out of nothing.” Nobody knows what the universe was created out of, if anything. Don’t pretend you know. You weren’t there." Nobody knows how macroevolution works. Don't pretend you know. You weren't there when the first fish crawled out of the sea and eventually sprouted legs. Works both ways, apparently. Barb
If you actually read the pasted text youd’d read the “Noah’s Ark problem” is in fact a cute name for “phylogenetic triage” conservation geneticists might have to play –
Bummer. :-( Here I thought they were trying to help us out. Thanks for setting me straight. scordova
,,,The following logical deduction and evidence shows that consciousness precedes the collapse of the 'infinite information' of the quantum wave state to the single bit of the 'uncertain' particle state,,, The argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either precedes all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kpDwWetu66fBRlPM7zjA5BpHzcu5wBY7AdB7gOz51OQ/edit Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno Effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cF supplemental note: “It always bothers me that in spite of all this local business, what goes on in a tiny, no matter how tiny, region of space, and no matter how tiny a region of time, according to laws as we understand them today, it takes a computing machine an infinite number of logical operations to figure out. Now how can all that be going on in that tiny space? Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?" - Richard Feynman – one of the founding fathers of QED (Quantum Electrodynamics) Quote taken from the 6:45 minute mark of the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw I don’t know about Feynman, but as for myself, being a Christian Theist, I find it rather comforting to know that it takes an ‘infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do’: John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." of note: ‘the Word’ in John1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos is the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. bornagain77
Zeilinger's principle The principle that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics. http://science.jrank.org/pages/20784/Zeilinger%27s-principle.html#ixzz17a7f88PM Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: ,,,moreover, encoded information, such as we find encoded in computers, and yes, such as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'conserved' quantum information:,,, Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy - June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that "more than complete knowledge" from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, "This doesn't mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine." The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what's known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says "We're working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm ,,,It is important to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?,,, Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html Information In Photon - Robert W. Boyd - slides from presentation http://www.quantumphotonics.uottawa.ca/assets/pdf/Boyd-Como-InPho.pdf Information in a Photon - Robert W. Boyd - 2010 Excerpt: By its conventional definition, a photon is one unit of excitation of a mode of the electromagnetic field. The modes of the electromagnetic field constitute a countably infinite set of basis functions, and in this sense the amount of information that can be impressed onto an individual photon is unlimited. http://www.pqeconference.com/pqe2011/abstractd/013.pdf Here is a more rigorous measurement of the wave function which establishes it as 'physically real'; Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html ,,,The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to explain quantum entanglement, leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:,,, Quantum Theory’s ‘Wavefunction’ Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American – November 2011 Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. “This strips away obscurity and shows you can’t have an interpretation of a quantum (wave) state as probabilistic,” he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction The quantum (wave) state cannot be interpreted statistically – November 2011 http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328 Moreover: Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm bornagain77
Researchers Succeed in Quantum Teleportation of Light Waves - April 2011 Excerpt: In this experiment, researchers in Australia and Japan were able to transfer quantum information from one place to another without having to physically move it. It was destroyed in one place and instantly resurrected in another, “alive” again and unchanged. This is a major advance, as previous teleportation experiments were either very slow or caused some information to be lost. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-04/quantum-teleportation-breakthrough-could-lead-instantanous-computing Here is another experiment which demonstrated quantum information's dominion over space and time (specifically time); Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement - January 2011 Excerpt: In "ordinary" quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it's possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call "teleportation in time." "To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology," Olson told PhysOrg.com. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-physicists-method-timelike-entanglement.html and this experiment: Here’s a variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights quantum information's transcendence of time so as to effect 'spooky action into the past'; Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html Qubits that never interact could exhibit past-future entanglement - July 30, 2012 Excerpt: Typically, for two particles to become entangled, they must first physically interact. Then when the particles are physically separated and still share the same quantum state, they are considered to be entangled. But in a new study, physicists have investigated a new twist on entanglement in which two qubits become entangled with each other even though they never physically interact.,, In the current study, the physicists have proposed an experiment based on circuit quantum electrodynamics (QED) that is fully within reach of current technologies. They describe a set-up that involves a pair of superconducting qubits, P and F, with qubit P connected to a quantum field vacuum by a transmission line. During the first time interval, which the scientists call the past, P interacts with the field. Then P is quickly decoupled from the field for the second time interval. Finally, F is coupled to the field for a time interval called the future. Even though P and F never interact with the field at the same time or with each other at all, F’s interactions with the field cause it to become entangled with P. The physicists call this correlation “past-future entanglement.” http://phys.org/news/2012-07-qubits-interact-past-future-entanglement.html ,,,Whereas these following experiment shows that quantum information is 'conserved',,, Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence ,,,Moreover, when the quantum wave state (superposition) of a photon, which is defined as a infinite dimensional state which can be encoded with infinite information, collapses to its particle state, the collapsed state yields only a single bit of information:,,, Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 bornagain77
CentralScrutinizer, ahhh but that is the beauty of science. Just as we can be confident in the inference of design, even though we 'were not there', We can also infer with a reasonable degree of confidence that God created the universe out of 'information'. From the best scientific evidence we now have, from multiple intersecting lines of evidence, we now have very good reason to believe that the entire universe came instantaneously into origination at the Big Bang. Not only was all mass-energy brought into being, but space-time itself was also instantaneously brought into being at the Big Bang!!! "Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970 “All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - (Paper announced at Hawking's 70th birthday party - characterized as the “Worst birthday present ever”) Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston - January 2012 Thus it logically follows that whatever brought the universe into being had to be transcendent of space-time, mass-energy. Yet the only thing that we know of that is completely transcendent of space-time, matter-energy is information. Thus the question becomes ‘was information used to bring space-time, mass-energy into being?’,,, simple enough question, but how do we prove it? It turns out that quantum teleportation breakthroughs have shed light directly on this question!,,, Here are a few experiments establishing the ‘beyond space and time’ 'information theoretic' origin, and sustaining, of this universe,; Quantum Mechanics has now been extended by Anton Zeilinger, and team, to falsify local realism (reductive materialism) without even using quantum entanglement to do it. i.e. one must now appeal to a ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, cause to explain the continued existence of photons within spacetime: ‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm The following experiments demonstrate that energy and mass reduce to quantum information; How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation - IBM Research Page Excerpt: "it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,," http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf ,,,The following articles show that even atoms are subject to 'instantaneous' teleportation:,,, Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits - Apr 16, 2013 Excerpt: "The greatest significance of our work is the dramatic increase in efficiency compared to previous realizations of matter-matter teleportation," Nölleke said. "Besides, it is the first demonstration of matter-matter teleportation between truly independent systems and constitutes the current record in distance of 21 m. The previous record was 1 m." http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.html Quantum Teleportation of a Human? - video https://vimeo.com/75163272 ,,,These following experiments show that the teleportation of information is indeed 'instantaneous', thus demonstrating transcendence, and even dominion, of space and time;,,, Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182/ bornagain77
If Noah had two of everything,as an example, how did he get llamas from South America? There is much evidence for a Black Sea flood when ice dams let loose after the glaciers started melting. Thus a local flood to create the story. turell
BA77: CentralScrutinizer, so you deny the evidence we now have indicates the universe had a sudden beginning???
Lots of things have beginnings. That doesn't mean they were created "out of nothing." Nobody knows what the universe was created out of, if anything. Don't pretend you know. You weren't there. CentralScrutinizer
The "problem" with Noah and the Ark is that it is an act of God. And a God that could create the Earth and original Kinds could definitely see to it that the surviving populations were fruitful, multiplied and filled in the wide-open niches. Joe
'they even make movies about it and movies are true' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI bornagain77
The bible is a witness in good standing until proven otherwise. Just like in court. So the ark story is true. they even make movies about it and movies are true they tell us otherwise there would not be the idea about movies documenting this or that cause or identity as a important thing. Anyways. The bible says there were birds and mentions doves and crows, I think, as on the ark. A clue as to diversity of kinds. Not just a bird kind. Yes mechanisms are needed to quickly bring great diversity. We see this however in people groups. Robert Byers
CentralScrutinizer, so you deny the evidence we now have indicates the universe had a sudden beginning??? "Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy." Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’ The Scientific Evidence For The Big Bang - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323668 Evidence Supporting the Big Bang http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/s7.htm Denyse O’Leary has an excellent condensed history of 'Big Bang denialism' by atheistic scientists: Big Bang Exterminator Wanted, Will Train - Denyse O'Leary - October 20, 2013 Excerpt: "Perhaps the best argument in favor of the thesis that the Big Bang supports theism is the obvious unease with which it is greeted by some atheist physicists. At times this has led to scientific ideas, such as continuous creation or an oscillating universe, being advanced with a tenacity which so exceeds their intrinsic worth that one can only suspect the operation of psychological forces lying very much deeper than the usual academic desire of a theorist to support his/her theory." Cosmologist Christopher Isham http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/10/big_bang_exterm077961.html bornagain77
BA77:> Well CS since the Bible was correct on the ex nihilo creation of the universe,,,
You are free to believe whatever you want, but you have no empirical idea if the universe was created ex nihilo or not. Were you there? CentralScrutinizer
Moreover, here is a very interesting geographic finding which corroborates the archeological finding for the first human civilization at Ankara:
The Center of the Earth by Henry Morris, Ph.D. Excerpt: The problem is basically to determine that point on the earth’s surface, the average distance from which to all other points on the earth’s land surfaces is a minimum. This point is defined as the earth’s geographical center. (1) Divide all the earth’s land areas into small, equal, unit areas. (2) Select one of these unit areas as a possible location of the earth’s center. (3) Measure the distance along the earth’s surface from this reference area to each of the other unit areas, all over the earth. (4) Add up all these distances and divide the total by the number of individual distances measured. The result is the average distance from the reference area to all the other unit areas around the world. (5) Repeat the entire process in steps (1) through (4) above for each one of all the other unit areas around the world. (6) Compare the "average distances" so calculated for all the different unit areas. The one for which the average distance turns out to be the smallest is the earth’s geographical center. Actually, the calculation becomes feasible only if it can be programmed on a high speed computer. To accomplish the latter requires a knowledge of spherical trigonometry, geodesy, calculus, and computer science. In addition, there must be available accurate data on the earth’s land and water areas, arranged in a grid network tied to latitude and longitude. With these factors present, the computation then becomes quite feasible. RESULTS ,,, The exact center of the earth, insofar as Mr. Woods’ calculations could determine, was found to be near Ankara, the present capital of Turkey, at latitude 39° and longitude 34°, on the same latitude as Mount Ararat and essentially the same longitude as Jerusalem.,,, http://www.icr.org/article/50/
Now that is very fascinating!,,, That the first archeological evidence for a 'advanced' human civilization, with metallurgy, wine making, agriculture, would be very near, or even at, the 'geographic center of the earth' is a very 'spooky' thing for modern science to find! Pondering all the many places where the beginning of advanced human civilization 'could have' happened, instead of where it actually 'did happen', should make any reasonable person scratch their head in wonder! And as hard as it may be to believe, especially considering all the frauds, and mistakes, that have gone on before, I think the following explorer has a pretty strong case, including chemical lab work, that his team may have actually discovered the authentic remains of Noah's Ark:
Arch Bonnema - 'Possible' Petrified Noah's Ark Remains - video http://vimeo.com/23641811
Of course, some may argue that it is just not possible for all the animals of the earth, and food, to fit in the Ark, and I sympathize with the warranted incredulity, but the evidence itself states that catastrophic flooding, perhaps global, happened in the not to distant past. The evidence also states that the first advanced civilization happened very close to where the Noah account was said to have taken place in the Bible. Thus on two of the main points that would be needed for the story to be plausible, the Bible comes out on top. Moreover, all ancient cultures are said to have flood legends in their history. Perhaps, just perhaps, there is far more to the Noah account than we imagine possible CS?,,, Verse:
Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, that same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Rare Diamond Reveals Earth's Interior is All Wet - March 12, 2014 Excerpt: The results suggest there could be a vast store of water in the mantle transition zone, which stretches from 254 to 410 miles (410 to 660 km) deep. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rare-diamond-reveals-earths-interior-wet-181429521.html#tXnqTay New Research Supports Theory of Extraterrestrial Impact - (Mar. 5, 2012) Excerpt: In the entire geologic record, there are only two known continent-wide layers with abundance peaks in nanodiamonds, impact spherules, and aciniform soot. These are in the 65-million-year-old Cretaceous-Paleogene boundary layer that coincided with major extinctions, including the dinosaurs and ammonites; and the Younger Dryas boundary event at 12,900 years ago, closely associated with the extinctions of many large North American animals, including mammoths, mastodons, saber-tooth cats, and dire wolves. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120305160814.htm
Jars Of Clay - Flood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfAhpX_wIBk
CentralScrutinizer you ask,
Do you guys really believe the Noah/Ark story? Really?
Well CS since the Bible was correct on the ex nihilo creation of the universe,,,
The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation
It is also very interesting to note that among all the 'holy' books, of all the major religions in the world, only the Holy Bible was correct in its claim for a transcendent origin of the universe. Some later 'holy' books, such as the Mormon text "Pearl of Great Price" and the Qur'an, copy the concept of a transcendent origin from the Bible but also include teachings that are inconsistent with that now established fact. (Hugh Ross; Why The Universe Is The Way It Is; Pg. 228; Chpt.9; note 5)
The Uniqueness Of The Bible Among 'holy books' and Evidence of God in Creation (Hugh Ross) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjYSz1OYG8Y ,,, 'And if you're curious about how Genesis 1, in particular, fairs. Hey, we look at the Days in Genesis as being long time periods, which is what they must be if you read the Bible consistently, and the Bible scores 4 for 4 in Initial Conditions and 10 for 10 on the Creation Events' Hugh Ross - Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere; video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347236
CS, seeing as such a 'minor detail' as the creation of the entire universe was uniquely predicted by the Bible, do you not think that other aspects of the Bible might at least warrant a somewhat fair hearing since it got that 'minor detail' correct??? For instance, the following video is downright jaw-dropping with its archeological evidence for the authenticity of the Bible:
The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y
The following video is also very strong in its archeological confirmation for the bible:
Jericho Unearthed - Bible Confirmed Once Again - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-cmdl4Cqdo "In Extraordinary ways, modern archaeology has affirmed the historical core of the Old and New testaments - corroborating key points of the stories of Israel's patriarchs, the Exodus, the Davidic monarchy, and the life and times of Jesus." Jeffery Sheler - 'Is The Bible True', U.S. News and World Report, Oct. 25th, 1999, pg.52
This is a gem of a quote from a Bible skeptic who thought it unfair to use the Bible as a guide in archeology since,,,::
‘he knew immediately that, proceeding in this way (using the Bible as a guide), “she would certainly find that building” per - O'Leary - News
As to a global flood, even secular sources themselves are now admitting that there is mounting evidence for global catastrophic flooding 13,000 years before the present:
Humanpast.net Excerpt: Worldwide, we know that the period of 14,000 to 13,000 years ago, which coincides with the peak of abundant monsoonal rains over India, was marked by violent oceanic flooding - in fact, the first of the three great episodes of global superfloods that dominated the meltdown of the Ice Age. The flooding was fed not merely by rain but by the cataclysmic synchronous collapse of large ice-masses on several different continents and by gigantic inundations of meltwater pouring down river systems into the oceans. (124) What happened, at around 13,000 years ago, was that the long period of uninterrupted warming that the world had just passed through (and that had greatly intensified, according to some studies, between 15,000 years ago and 13,000 years ago) was instantly brought to a halt - all at once, everywhere - by a global cold event known to palaeo climatologists as the 'Younger Dryas' or 'Dryas III'. In many ways mysterious and unexplained, this was an almost unbelievably fast climatic reversion - from conditions that are calculated to have been warmer and wetter than today's 13,000 years ago, to conditions that were colder and drier than those at the Last Glacial Maximum, not much more than a thousand years later. From that moment, around 12,800 years ago, it was as though an enchantment of ice had gripped the earth. In many areas that had been approaching terminal meltdown full glacial conditions were restored with breathtaking rapidity and all the gains that had been made since the LGM were simply stripped away…(124) A great, sudden extinction took place on the planet, perhaps as recently as 11,500 years ago (usually attributed to the end of that last ice age), in which hundreds of mammal and plant species disappeared from the face of the earth, driven into deep caverns and charred muck piles the world over. Modern science, with all its powers and prejudices, has been unable to adequately explain this event. (83) http://humanpast.net/environment/environment11k.htm
The following video is very interesting for it shows a geological formation that is now known to have been formed by a catastrophic flood, yet Charles Darwin himself had 'predicted' the geological formation was formed 'gradually':
Where Darwin Went Wrong - geology video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3darzVqzV2o
Moreover, corresponding to the circa 13,000 year ago evidence for catastrophic mega-floods, (perhaps global), in this following video lecture (on the ‘table of nations'), at around the 6:00 minute mark, we find that the first ‘advanced’ human civilization, (with the oldest archeological evidence of metallurgy, agriculture, wine making, etc…), flourished near, or at, the Ankara area,,,(The Ankara area is called Anatolia in the video), which is close to where Noah’s Ark is said to have come to rest on a mountaintop:
Tracing your Ancestors through History - Paul James-Griffiths http://edinburghcreationgroup.org/video/1 Ankara Excerpt: Centrally located in Anatolia, Ankara is an important commercial and industrial city. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara
Though, because of his Young Earth Biblical view, Paul James-Griffiths did not give the dating of the area, the dating of the first 'advanced' human civilization, around that area, is around 12,000 years before the present:
Stone Age Temple May Be Birthplace of Civilization Excerpt: The elaborate temple at Gobelki Tepe in southeastern Turkey, near the Syrian border, is staggeringly ancient: 11,500 years old, from a time just before humans learned to farm grains and domesticate animals. According to the German archaeologist in charge of excavations at the site, it might be the birthplace of agriculture, of organized religion — of civilization itself. http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/gobeklitepe/index
Do you guys really believe the Noah/Ark story? Really? CentralScrutinizer
If you actually read the pasted text youd'd read the "Noah’s Ark problem" is in fact a cute name for "phylogenetic triage" conservation geneticists might have to play - with lmited resources how can we best protect evolutoianry diversity. Mung - isn't that really another way of saying the same thing? If you could cram lots of birds into an ark then it's easy to hold on to diversity, because the ark is small you can't so, to be consistant, YECs have to believe in v. rapid evolutoin? wd400
According to the biblical record of the flood, Noah did not have every single animal on Earth on the ark. He was instructed by God to take varieties of animals into the ark (7 clean animals, such as 7 sheep and 2 of other species, such as 2 elephants). This is found at Genesis 7:1-3. I am often amused by the thought of Noah and his family attempting (and probably failing in some cases) to corral and wrangle all the wild animals into the ark. Considering that there were both predator (wolves) and prey (sheep) aboard, one might wonder how they coexisted peacefully. If you remember that God is all-powerful, though, it's not difficult to imagine Him being able to control his animal creations, rendering them docile for the purpose of saving them through the flood. Now, since Noah took varieties of animals onto the ark, the question of how many animals could fit onto the ark is raised. Some encyclopedias state that there are over 1 million species of animals. But remember that Noah was instructed only to preserve representatives of every "kind" of land animal and flying creature. Some investigators have said that just 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles could have produced the great variety of species of these creatures that are known today. The ark had about 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) of usable space—ample for the passenger list. Barb

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