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L&FP, 48: [Former?] New Atheist Stefan Molyneaux and his “Universally Preferable Behavior” (2007) illustrate inescapably binding, intelligible and identifiable first duties of reason

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I ran across this work, and find an interesting discussion, starting with a fairly roundabout way to show what a first, undeniable principle or truth — branch on which we all must sit stuff — is like::

Given that every human action – including making philosophical statements – is chosen in preference to every other possible action, arguing that preferences do not exist requires a preference for arguing that preferences do not exist, which is a self-contradictory statement. [p. 33]

So, next, we have another roundabout way of summarising duties/oughts as universally prefer-ABLE behaviour:

The proposition before us is thus: can some preferences be objective, i.e. universal?

When I say that some preferences may be objective, I do not mean that all people follow these preferences at all times. If I were to argue that breathing is an objective preference, I could be easily countered by the example of those who commit suicide by hanging themselves. If I were to argue that eating is an objective preference, my argument could be countered with examples of hunger strikes and anorexia.

Thus when I talk about universal preferences, I am talking about what people should prefer, not what they always do prefer. [p. 33]

The is-ought gap emerges, and we see that a property of the objective is its universal force.

Given a known issue or two likely to come up as a premise of objections, let’s note from the next page:

Since human beings cannot communicate psychically, all debates necessarily involve the evidence of the senses. Writing presupposes sight; talking requires hearing; Braille requires touch. Thus any proposition that depends upon the invalidity of the senses automatically self-destructs. [p. 34, thus, self-referential incoherence and grand delusion exhibit absurdities and found argument by reducing a key alternative to absurdity. Those who wish to deny that our senses can and often do credibly access a world independent of our individual perceptions, opinions etc, should take due note.]

Next, the duty to truth appears:

If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal. You don’t say to me: “You should change your opinion to mine because I would prefer it,” but rather: “You should correct your opinion because it is objectively incorrect.” My error does not arise from merely disagreeing with you, but as a result of my deviance from an objective standard of truth. Your argument that I should correct my false opinion rests on the objective value of truth – i.e. that truth is universally preferable to error, and that truth is universally objective. [p. 35]

Going on, we come to:

Simply put, morals are a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify universally preferable human behaviours, just as physics is a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify the universal behaviour of matter . . . .

if I argue against the proposition that universally preferable behaviour is valid, I have already shown my preference for truth over falsehood – as well as a preference for correcting those who speak falsely. Saying that there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour is like shouting in someone’s ear that sound does not exist – it is innately self-contradictory. In other words, if there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour, then one should oppose anyone who claims that there is such a thing as universally preferable behaviour. However, if one “should” do something, then one has just created universally preferable behaviour. Thus universally preferable behaviour – or moral rules – must be valid.

Syllogistically, this is:

1] The proposition [being challenged] is: the concept “universally preferable behaviour” must be valid.

2] Arguing against the validity of universally preferable behaviour [however, inadvertently] demonstrates [so, acknowledges] universally preferable behaviour.
[____________________________________________________ ]

3] Therefore no argument against the validity of universally preferable behaviour can be valid.

We see here how first duties are baked into arguments, and so are inescapable, intelligible and identifiable. Even, the would be objector appeals to such.

However, this is not a demonstration of why as a matter of logic of being, we are morally governed. It simply shows that we cannot escape such and so we see the chain, inescapable as part of reason, so inescapably true, so too first principles.

We cannot but be absurd if we are found sawing off the branch on which we must all sit just to argue. From duties to truth we readily find a duty to right reason as the means to truth and a recognition that our rational, cognitive faculties have a naturally evident baked in end, to move toward truth, accurate description of reality. This leads to the duty to warrant claims of known truth, i.e. to see to it that they are well founded as reliable and credibly true as we need to rely on them. Here, this is clearly part of wider duty to prudence. Then, we recognise conscience and duty to sound conscience rightly guided as described. onward, we observe neighbours who are as we are and so the mutual duties of fairness, justice etc. All of which can be drawn out in detail. In short, we may list, Ciceronian first duties,

1: to truth,
2: to right reason,
3: to warrant and wider prudence,
4: to sound conscience,
5: to neighbour,
6: so too to fairness, and
7: to justice,
. . . ,
x: etc.

Ciceronian? Yes, try De Legibus:

—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for . “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans [–> esp. Cicero, speaking as a leading statesman], an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

[–> this points to the wellsprings of reality, the only place where is and ought can be bridged; bridged, through the inherently good utterly wise, maximally great necessary being, the creator God, which adequately answers the Euthyphro dilemma and Hume’s guillotine argument surprise on seeing reasoning is-is then suddenly a leap to ought-ought. IS and OUGHT are fused from the root]

This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice

Where do the roots of such moral government come from?

The answer is, the root of reality, the only level where is and ought can be bridged without gaps. Reality’s root must be a necessary being of finite remove with causal capability to be a well-spring of worlds, including worlds with morally governed creatures. So too, to adequately found such government (given the longstanding gap and the Euthyphro debates), inherently good and utterly wise, i.e. maximally great person emerges.

Altogether, a familiar figure, the God of ethical theism. (Cf. No. 47.) But if one objects, one needs to provide a comparatively powerful candidate root without opening up gaps or absurdities: _________ . Harder to do than may be at first imagined.

Now, too, these explorations were sparked by noticing News’ clip from a recent Salon Article denouncing the New Atheists who have gone all libertarian or the like:

New Atheism appeared to offer moral clarity, it emphasized intellectual honesty and it embraced scientific truths about the nature and workings of reality. It gave me immense hope to know that in a world overflowing with irrationality, there were clear-thinking individuals with sizable public platforms willing to stand up for what’s right and true — to stand up for sanity in the face of stupidity.

Fast-forward to the present: What a grift that was! Many of the most prominent New Atheists turned out to be nothing more than self-aggrandizing, dogmatic, irascible, censorious, morally compromised people who, at every opportunity, have propped up the powerful over the powerless, the privileged over the marginalized. This may sound hyperbolic, but it’s not when, well, you look at the evidence. So I thought it might be illuminating to take a look at where some of the heavy hitters in the atheist and “skeptic” communities are today. What do their legacies look like? In what direction have they taken their cultural quest to secularize the world?

Phil Torres, “Godless grifters: How the New Atheists merged with the far right” at Salon (June 5, 2021)

See the import of the bolded points, illustrating the first duties in action on the part of one who, presumably, has no way to bridge IS-OUGHT within his apparent evolutionary materialistic scientism?

So, the issue of inescapable, self evidently true first duties of reason is not as easily brushed aside as some may imagine. END

Comments
CONTINUATION: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/lfp-48a-is-the-denial-of-objective-moral-truth-an-implicit-truth-claim-about-duty-to-right-conduct-etc-thus-subject-to-reductio/ This is shifting towards restoration of moral knowledge.kairosfocus
January 8, 2022
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And you started a new thread to continue discussing it. I'll repeat: if you would quit posting on this thread, and post on the other thread, this thread will die a natural death.Viola Lee
January 7, 2022
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VL, there is a subject of significant import for the path of civilisation, that needs to be discussed. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2022
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I offer a cogent objection. Just let the thread die by not posting in it. After a few more posts no one will pay attention to it any more and it will fade away in the same way all threads do. You don't need to micromanage by closing comments. And I'll point out that your new thread just takes off where this one is at. There might be benefits to people not having to deal with a 1000 post thread, but there is no new to artificially move the discussion to a new thread. If there is interest in continuing, that will happen naturally if you just post there, not here.Viola Lee
January 7, 2022
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I am thinking it may be better to continue in the new thread. If there are no cogent objections I will close comments here later today.kairosfocus
January 7, 2022
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Origenes, it seems I need to again correct your failed unicorns analogy.
Ha!
A statement about unicorns is not a unicorn.
And a statement about moral truths is not a moral truth. A statement about statements, however, is a statement.
However a thesis that rejects objective warrant regarding claimed duties of right conduct etc …
Attempt at word salad. We are discussing this claim: **There Are No Objective Moral Truths** According to you this claim/proposition is a ‘moral truth’, however a moral truth is a claim about behavior. This claim does not define & attach value to a behavior, which is what moral truths do.
… is a proposition on the subject of right conduct etc.
It is a proposition on moral truths, IOWs it is a claim about moral truths. The fact that it is a proposition on moral truths, does not make the proposition itself a moral truth. Similarly a proposition on unicorns is not a unicorn itself. Moral truths define & attach value to a behavior, [e.g. “murder is wrong”], in contrast, the proposition “there are no objective moral truths” does no such thing. “There are no objective moral truths” is an ontological proposition on moral truths, it is not a moral proposition on moral truths. It is an ontological proposition about the (non)existence of a certain type of moral truths. It is not a moral proposition because it does not define behavior and attach value to it. If “moral truths” can be said to be a behavior [which is not the case], then the claim “moral truths are wrong” would be an example of a moral proposition on moral truths, and that claim would indeed be a self-referentially incoherent claim.Origenes
January 7, 2022
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A case of reducing objective truth to battling narratives, corrected: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMYu37fskE Corrected. Pardon vulgarities.kairosfocus
January 7, 2022
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Seversky Moral claims are not about what is but about what ought to be the case.
:) Did you just tell us what ought to think about moral claims?Lieutenant Commander Data
January 6, 2022
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JS, you just managed to illustrate your negative credibility and the spreading habit of relativising here on language, logic and meaning. A statement or thesis that rejects objectivity regarding truth claims concerning duty of right conduct etc is manifestly a statement on said subject; a unicorn is not a proposition. Further to which, reductio applies, which is evidence beyond reasonable doubt on any responsible understanding. Going further, historical argument, framework of conscience guided mindedness and branch on which we all sit first principles that objectors cannot but use are all cases of evidence. Your no evidence projection reflects instead cognitive dissonance on your part, selective hyperskepticism -- in the face of a reductio, so we know that no degree of mere evidence and reason will move you -- and willful irresponsible falsehood. Fail. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2022
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Origenes, it seems I need to again correct your failed unicorns analogy. A statement about unicorns is not a unicorn. However a thesis that rejects objective warrant regarding claimed duties of right conduct etc is a proposition on the subject of right conduct etc. Thus, reductio is relevant due to self-reference. Reductio has been duly applied, yielding the undeniability of objective, warranted, knowable truth regarding duty of right conduct etc. That you have to double down on as obvious an error as this tells us much regarding the true balance on merits; it is not in your favour. KF
This nonsense is where I came in. As KF is not providing any evidence for objective moral values, and just continuously repeats the same half dozen discredited claims, I think it is time to leave this thread. Good luck to all who remain.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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JS, further doubling down and attempted turnabout projection without warrant. You full well know that I have advanced a philosophical, historical, ciceronian natural law case turning on a logical-epistemological analysis that transcends particular worldviews and religious frames. That such was in core part endorsed by foundational Christian thinkers was 100 years later, and was on grounds that such is naturally evident and attested by sound conscience and balance of argument. Your gratuitous attempt to dismiss on grounds of my being captive to a religious mindset is an ad hominem that is uncivil and doubled down on in the face of correction. By contrast, my pointing out your toxic rhetorical stunt, is warranted by facts in evidence and a well known current attitude notoriously summed up by Dawkins, ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked; due correction is not an ad hominem. Fail. KF PS, negative credibility is a real value, when someone is or an institution's spokesmen are so reliably wrong that one can infer true reliable balance on merits by negation of claims, that is obviously a negative value of credibility. Further fail, and a point previously explained.kairosfocus
January 6, 2022
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Origenes, it seems I need to again correct your failed unicorns analogy. A statement about unicorns is not a unicorn. However a thesis that rejects objective warrant regarding claimed duties of right conduct etc is a proposition on the subject of right conduct etc. Thus, reductio is relevant due to self-reference. Reductio has been duly applied, yielding the undeniability of objective, warranted, knowable truth regarding duty of right conduct etc. That you have to double down on as obvious an error as this tells us much regarding the true balance on merits; it is not in your favour. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2022
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JS, you have doubled down on both ad homs due to anti religious bigotry and the oh we ignored and intend to continue ignoring per hyperskepticism. Fail. Negative credibility confirmed.
Religious bias, not bigotry. Religious bias is something we are all guilty of. Why do you think you are exempt? The fact that you have reacted so emotionally to the suggestion of religious bias only makes it more apparent. By the way, given that you are an expert at mathematics and algebra, you are aware that a person can’t have negative credibility. They can only have zero credibility. But, your claim that someone has negative credibility is a truth claim about credibility which is self-referential and, therefore, false.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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JS@1111: But it is encouraging to see that you haven’t repeated the utter failure of your algebraic proof of objective moral values.
[SNIP, language] Spoke too soon (see 1112). :) :) :)Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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JS, you have doubled down on both ad homs due to anti religious bigotry and the oh we ignored and intend to continue ignoring per hyperskepticism. Fail. Negative credibility confirmed. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2022
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If I have one regret, it is my comment @7, following six straight comments by KF.
You don’t appear to be drawing much interest in your first duties opinions. Perhaps that is because you have not demonstrated the warrant you so wish to be acknowledged.
I fear I have created a monster. ?Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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PS: VL, pace your attempted dismissiveness, the following [duly informed by the just above context that is readily accessible to those who would ponder] is patently not "meaningless":
Let a proposition be represented by x [--> symbolisation] M = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding right conduct, duty/ought, virtue/honour, good/evil etc (i.e. the subject is morality) is the case [--> subject of relevance] O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true [--> criterion of objectivity] [--> patently meaningful] It is claimed, S= ~[O*M] = 1 [--> the there are no objective, warranted, knowable moral truths claim, again meaningful] However, the subject of S is M, [--> by simple inspection] it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about M [--> pointing out the implicit thesis that relativists claim to know the accuracy of their claim or implication, on warrant] where it forbids O-status to any claim of type M [--> patent] so, ~[O*M] cannot be true per self referential incoherence [--> reductio] ++++++++++ ~[O*M] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*M]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*M = 1 [condensing not of not] where, M [moral truth claim] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] That is, there are objective moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*M] is false. The set is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important. [--> square of opposition issues]
Your attempted dismissal fails. The argument is meaningful and relevant to the underlying thesis of relativism. Relativists are not confessing general ignorance and openness to be instructed otherwise, they are rejecting validity of objective claims regarding right conduct etc on grounds of irresolvable difference, demand for tolerance etc. Of course, due tolerance is an onward objective moral principle. Namely, that as we are error prone and need due freedom of inquiry and community, a fairly wide range of opinion and discussion must be tolerated on pain of undermining liberty. Where, similarly, other credible evils must be put up with and regulated as opposed to abolished due to "hardness of men's hearts," pending moral growth of society. An excellent comparison is abolition of slavery starting with the trade and the fate of prohibition as peak temperance movement in the US and how it had the unintended consequence of empowering organised crime. Similar arguments can be made regarding Marijuana. In short, due tolerance is an objective moral principle and has due limits. And so forth. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2022
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It is quite clear that the intent and import of relativism is that there are no generally knowable warranted objective truths regarding duty, right conduct and similar states of affairs. …. Such mutinies don’t end well.
There is nothing new here that you haven’t repeated many times in your last 90,000+ words. All of which has been demonstrated to be unsound and non-compelling. But it is encouraging to see that you haven’t repeated the utter failure of your algebraic proof of objective moral values. Through your 90,000+ words, you have not provided any evidence of objective moral values or any reason why subjective morality isn’t the best explanation of what is seen around us and throughout history. All you have provided is wishful thinking and fear of possible consequences based on your religious faith. As mentioned, religious faith is fine, but it isn’t evidence for the objective nature of moral values.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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JS, Origenes, Seversky et al, It is quite clear that the intent and import of relativism is that there are no generally knowable warranted objective truths regarding duty, right conduct and similar states of affairs. Where, Seversky, a state of affairs is a condition that can be described with a proposition. Origenes, doubling down on claimed loaded language is revealing, your having been corrected substantially from reputable sources. And from actual experience. That tells us you have no cogent response. JS, your resort to accusation of emotive reaction to consequences in the context of reductio to absurdum, logical contradiction form, shows that you too have no cogent case. Seversky, the question here is epistemological-logical, not ontological; which would be onward. However, the contrast between is and ought shows that only rational, responsible, significantly free entities have power to make responsible choices so moral government is a concomitant of freedom. If you are free enough to be rational, choosing to follow logic, you are morally governed. This also implies that as we experience this directly through voice of conscience, on pain of spreading grand delusion across our mindedness, we ned to take that testimony seriously. And indeed, after the Guillotine argument, the only level of reality that is and ought can be bridged is root of reality. VL, I see your:
Obviously, for one to say that it is objectively true that there are no moral truths is absurd. But that is not what those who are arguing against the idea of objective truths are saying
Saying and pretty directly implying are of course two distinct things. Relativists typically emphasise diversity of opinions among individuals and cultures etc, but that has never been a matter of controversy. Nor, do presumably well informed relativists merely intend ignorance of such accurately described states of affairs regarding duty, right conduct etc, they imply longstanding want of warrant and no reasonable prospect or even possibility of such warrant. That is, my summary statement accurately reflects the bottomline stance of relativists. I thank you for acknowledging that that summary proposition is indeed reduced to absurdity. Going on, manifestly, we are an error-prone race, and across time, space etc have many, many areas of profound disagreement. The normal procedure in such areas, is to identify sound first principles for the area, starting with first principles of right reason, logic. Then, if self evident first truths can be listed, a framework for the field can be identified and developed into a body of well warranted so reliable and objective knowable truth independent of the error proneness of our individual or collective opinion-forming. From which, we then have a body of knowledge and best practice to work with. For logic, the general tool, there is an established body of knowledge and Epictetus long since put its branch on which we all sit character on record:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. We here see the first principles of right reason in action. Cf J. C. Wright]
Notice, the classic framework of a set of first principles: inescapable, so inescapably, self evidently true. Thus, warranted and objective. Now, regarding our sense of being duty-bound to right conduct etc, conscience is so pervasive that it was only in recent centuries that it was fully seen as distinct from consciousness. Thus, on pain of self-referential discredit to our mindedness, we have to recognise validity of sound conscience and its testimony. Where, soundness implies due application of right reason and prudence towards warranted [so, objective] conclusions and linked due recognition of limits. Where, in the face of risk and uncertainty, prudence points to least regrets and similar precautionary principles. Similarly, "due" is of course directly connected to duty. What we do is under government of what we can reasonably identify as what we ought to do. But, too often, don't. As a rule, with damaging consequences. Underneath, is the naturally evident end of cognition, truth, accurate understanding and description of entities, states of affairs etc in reality, whether tangible or abstract. That is, if we regard our mindedness as grossly defective and dominated by our known error proneness we undermine cognition and credibility of mind. Further to this, we realise we are a common and social race in two complementary sexes with linked requisites of child nurture such that our mutual thriving under the civil peace of justice is a reasonable criterion, i.e. there is to be due balance of rights, freedoms, duties. Where, per sound conscience, a valid rights claim must not be such that it taints sound conscience of others. This, being a coherence criterion. If you have been keeping track, I have outlined precisely the Ciceronian first duties as are listed in the OP as having been stumbled across by SM:
1: to truth, 2: to right reason, 3: to warrant and wider prudence, 4: to sound conscience, 5: to neighbour, 6: so too to fairness, and 7: to justice, . . . , x: etc.
In short, c 50 BC, Cicero was not putting up random notions but was recognising the sum and substance of centuries of "the highest reason," on a subject of highest importance, which frames government and sound law. My comment on this, was to observe a familiar pattern, which again crops up in the latest raft of objections. Namely, that these Ciceronian first duties have the Epictetus characteristic: they are pervasive, inescapable, branch on which we sit first principles. As I noted, even objectors routinely appeal to same in order to gain persuasive power for their objections. For instance, above there is much failed appeal to duties to right reason that I allegedly fail to meet. The onward point is, from these longstanding classic principles, the moral, legal and governmental ideals and framework of our civilisation was built. As noted above, the US DoI 1776, charter of modern constitutional democracy, is a case in point. But latterly, selective hyperskepticism has been used to undermine such, frankly, the better to promote lawlessness, licence and libertinism at expense of sound governance. That is, we have had a mutiny on the Platonic ship of state. Such mutinies don't end well. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2022
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Moral claims are not about what is but about what ought to be the case. If we claim that there is a red Chevrolet Impala car in the parking-lot we can test the truth of that claim by going to the parking-lot and looking for such a car. If we see it then the claim is true, if we don't see it the claim is false. But if we say it is a morally good thing that there is such a vehicle in the parking-lot that claim is not about the nature of observable reality, it is a subjective evaluation of that reality. There is no way to test such claims against our observations of objective reality so they are neither true nor false by that understanding of truth. Of course, the overwhelming majority of human beings will be appalled by the rape and murder of a child and consider it utterly immoral behavior. Yet they will also watch TV documentaries about big cats, such as lions, in which adult males will kill and even eat cubs and, while we may be shocked and saddened by such behavior, we don't judge it to be immoral. Why not? There is also the question of, if there are objective moral imperatives, were they embedded in the fabric of the Universe at its creation? In other words, why would such rules be placed there 13.8 billion years before the creatures to whom the are intended to apply actually appeared?Seversky
January 6, 2022
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JS Joe Schooner “The thing that is obvious to everyone….” Yeh everybody I the king of strawman\strawwomen have spoken and all my minions in chorus will say amen. Priceless Vividvividbleau
January 6, 2022
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VividBleau @ 1105
Is it a truth about moral truths?
Yes, the claim, formulated by KF, is supposed to be a truth about moral truths. “There are no objective moral truths” is a ‘truth about moral truths’. Similarly, "there are no pink unicorns" is a truth about unicorns. However, a truth about unicorns is not a unicorn itself.Origenes
January 6, 2022
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The thing that is obvious to everyone is that rather than address the issue of objective vs subjective moral values KF, VB and SB are concentrating on the arrangement of words, grammar and flawed references to algebra rather than presenting any actual evidence supporting objective moral values. Again, religious beliefs, wishful thinking, raising strawman versions of subjective moral values and arguments from consequence are not valid arguments for objective moral values.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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Origenes “* it is a claim about moral truths, however it is not a moral truth itself.” Is it a truth about moral truths?. Vividvividbleau
January 6, 2022
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Viola Lee @1101 I agree 100%. In #1071 I argue that those of us who claim that moral rules have a subjective origin are under no obligation by any standard to defend the definitional booby trap "there are no knowable warranted objective moral truths." However, as an aside, I don't think that this tortured negative claim is self-referentially incoherent as KF claims it to be — see #1100. But, again, I agree with you that we are talking about something that is irrelevant.Origenes
January 6, 2022
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This is the claim YOU responded to not me. The claim that you have repeatedly distorted and misrepresented. Whether it was an answer to some other claim is irrelevant and if he was moving the goalposts I am hardly going to take your word for it. If he did take it up with him. JS post January 6, 2022 at 11:23 am “the claim there are no objective moral truths, is a claimed objective truth about morality. Vividvividbleau
January 6, 2022
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And so it is with **There are no moral truths** it is a claim about moral truths, however it is not a moral truth itself.
:)) If is not a moral truth then certainly is an immoral truth. PS: Is it possible that some software programmers to experiment with AI bots as commenters ? There is something strange. They are very similar people or are bots programmed by same programmer.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 6, 2022
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I think KF's "algebraic proof" is meaningless. He has just translated the claim that "it is objectively true that there are no objective truths" into some symbols, but as I said before, no one (certainly not me) is making that claim anyway.Viola Lee
January 6, 2022
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**There Are No Objective Moral Truths**
KF: the claim there are no objective moral truths, is a claimed objective truth about morality.
On this we are in full agreement. The claim “There Are No Objective Moral Truths” is indeed a claim about moral truths.
KF: So it is a claimed moral truth ...
Unfortunately for your position logic does not support this. A claim about X is not an X itself. For instance the claim “there are no unicorns” is a claim about unicorns, however the claim is (obviously) not an unicorn itself. And so it is with **there are no objective moral truths** it is a claim about moral truths, however it is not a moral truth itself. Unlike the above moral truths define & attach a value to behavior. Two examples of moral truths: “Killing and raping a toddler for fun is wrong” and “murder is wrong.”Origenes
January 6, 2022
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It’s “moral TRUTHS “Joe not “moral VALUES” that KF is referring to in the claim.
So, what you are saying is that KF is shifting goalposts. Nice to know that you agree. A comment is made that objective moral values don’t exist. KF responds in reference to moral truths, not moral values. Nobody has argued against moral truths. Perhaps you should correct him. It is a truth that morality exists. It is a truth that humans have moral values. These are both moral truths. These moral values can either be subjective or objective. Whichever they turn out to be is still a truth. KF’s algebraic argument is still Monty Pythonesque.Joe Schooner
January 6, 2022
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