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L&FP, 48: [Former?] New Atheist Stefan Molyneaux and his “Universally Preferable Behavior” (2007) illustrate inescapably binding, intelligible and identifiable first duties of reason

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I ran across this work, and find an interesting discussion, starting with a fairly roundabout way to show what a first, undeniable principle or truth — branch on which we all must sit stuff — is like::

Given that every human action – including making philosophical statements – is chosen in preference to every other possible action, arguing that preferences do not exist requires a preference for arguing that preferences do not exist, which is a self-contradictory statement. [p. 33]

So, next, we have another roundabout way of summarising duties/oughts as universally prefer-ABLE behaviour:

The proposition before us is thus: can some preferences be objective, i.e. universal?

When I say that some preferences may be objective, I do not mean that all people follow these preferences at all times. If I were to argue that breathing is an objective preference, I could be easily countered by the example of those who commit suicide by hanging themselves. If I were to argue that eating is an objective preference, my argument could be countered with examples of hunger strikes and anorexia.

Thus when I talk about universal preferences, I am talking about what people should prefer, not what they always do prefer. [p. 33]

The is-ought gap emerges, and we see that a property of the objective is its universal force.

Given a known issue or two likely to come up as a premise of objections, let’s note from the next page:

Since human beings cannot communicate psychically, all debates necessarily involve the evidence of the senses. Writing presupposes sight; talking requires hearing; Braille requires touch. Thus any proposition that depends upon the invalidity of the senses automatically self-destructs. [p. 34, thus, self-referential incoherence and grand delusion exhibit absurdities and found argument by reducing a key alternative to absurdity. Those who wish to deny that our senses can and often do credibly access a world independent of our individual perceptions, opinions etc, should take due note.]

Next, the duty to truth appears:

If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal. You don’t say to me: “You should change your opinion to mine because I would prefer it,” but rather: “You should correct your opinion because it is objectively incorrect.” My error does not arise from merely disagreeing with you, but as a result of my deviance from an objective standard of truth. Your argument that I should correct my false opinion rests on the objective value of truth – i.e. that truth is universally preferable to error, and that truth is universally objective. [p. 35]

Going on, we come to:

Simply put, morals are a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify universally preferable human behaviours, just as physics is a set of rules claiming to accurately and consistently identify the universal behaviour of matter . . . .

if I argue against the proposition that universally preferable behaviour is valid, I have already shown my preference for truth over falsehood – as well as a preference for correcting those who speak falsely. Saying that there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour is like shouting in someone’s ear that sound does not exist – it is innately self-contradictory. In other words, if there is no such thing as universally preferable behaviour, then one should oppose anyone who claims that there is such a thing as universally preferable behaviour. However, if one “should” do something, then one has just created universally preferable behaviour. Thus universally preferable behaviour – or moral rules – must be valid.

Syllogistically, this is:

1] The proposition [being challenged] is: the concept “universally preferable behaviour” must be valid.

2] Arguing against the validity of universally preferable behaviour [however, inadvertently] demonstrates [so, acknowledges] universally preferable behaviour.
[____________________________________________________ ]

3] Therefore no argument against the validity of universally preferable behaviour can be valid.

We see here how first duties are baked into arguments, and so are inescapable, intelligible and identifiable. Even, the would be objector appeals to such.

However, this is not a demonstration of why as a matter of logic of being, we are morally governed. It simply shows that we cannot escape such and so we see the chain, inescapable as part of reason, so inescapably true, so too first principles.

We cannot but be absurd if we are found sawing off the branch on which we must all sit just to argue. From duties to truth we readily find a duty to right reason as the means to truth and a recognition that our rational, cognitive faculties have a naturally evident baked in end, to move toward truth, accurate description of reality. This leads to the duty to warrant claims of known truth, i.e. to see to it that they are well founded as reliable and credibly true as we need to rely on them. Here, this is clearly part of wider duty to prudence. Then, we recognise conscience and duty to sound conscience rightly guided as described. onward, we observe neighbours who are as we are and so the mutual duties of fairness, justice etc. All of which can be drawn out in detail. In short, we may list, Ciceronian first duties,

1: to truth,
2: to right reason,
3: to warrant and wider prudence,
4: to sound conscience,
5: to neighbour,
6: so too to fairness, and
7: to justice,
. . . ,
x: etc.

Ciceronian? Yes, try De Legibus:

—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for . “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans [–> esp. Cicero, speaking as a leading statesman], an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

[–> this points to the wellsprings of reality, the only place where is and ought can be bridged; bridged, through the inherently good utterly wise, maximally great necessary being, the creator God, which adequately answers the Euthyphro dilemma and Hume’s guillotine argument surprise on seeing reasoning is-is then suddenly a leap to ought-ought. IS and OUGHT are fused from the root]

This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice

Where do the roots of such moral government come from?

The answer is, the root of reality, the only level where is and ought can be bridged without gaps. Reality’s root must be a necessary being of finite remove with causal capability to be a well-spring of worlds, including worlds with morally governed creatures. So too, to adequately found such government (given the longstanding gap and the Euthyphro debates), inherently good and utterly wise, i.e. maximally great person emerges.

Altogether, a familiar figure, the God of ethical theism. (Cf. No. 47.) But if one objects, one needs to provide a comparatively powerful candidate root without opening up gaps or absurdities: _________ . Harder to do than may be at first imagined.

Now, too, these explorations were sparked by noticing News’ clip from a recent Salon Article denouncing the New Atheists who have gone all libertarian or the like:

New Atheism appeared to offer moral clarity, it emphasized intellectual honesty and it embraced scientific truths about the nature and workings of reality. It gave me immense hope to know that in a world overflowing with irrationality, there were clear-thinking individuals with sizable public platforms willing to stand up for what’s right and true — to stand up for sanity in the face of stupidity.

Fast-forward to the present: What a grift that was! Many of the most prominent New Atheists turned out to be nothing more than self-aggrandizing, dogmatic, irascible, censorious, morally compromised people who, at every opportunity, have propped up the powerful over the powerless, the privileged over the marginalized. This may sound hyperbolic, but it’s not when, well, you look at the evidence. So I thought it might be illuminating to take a look at where some of the heavy hitters in the atheist and “skeptic” communities are today. What do their legacies look like? In what direction have they taken their cultural quest to secularize the world?

Phil Torres, “Godless grifters: How the New Atheists merged with the far right” at Salon (June 5, 2021)

See the import of the bolded points, illustrating the first duties in action on the part of one who, presumably, has no way to bridge IS-OUGHT within his apparent evolutionary materialistic scientism?

So, the issue of inescapable, self evidently true first duties of reason is not as easily brushed aside as some may imagine. END

Comments
JS, you have been duly corrected. On any politically/ideologically charged topic Wikipedia is not going to be credible given its domination by ideologues. And it remains the case that the claim that there are no knowable objective truths regarding right conduct etc is [a] self-referential, [b] intended to be objective, [c] intended to be true. It thus is in the position of self-defeat by self referential incoherence as was shown using the logic of AND. Principle of explosion would follow and it is therefore excluded from the class of reliably true propositions. That there are objective, knowable truths regarding right conduct etc is undeniably true, by reductio. And of course, this last is a case in point so we are not in the world of the empty set square of opposition. BTW, the classical one has been rehabilitated in recent years by way of correcting C17 - 18 mistranslation and in this form works out very well. KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2022
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Origenes “How does it differ from your definition of “truth”? When I wrote “ the same” I meant it doesn’t. I am assuming you meant how does it differ from my definition of objective. Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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Origenes The same. I feel your leading me down death row LOL How about answering my question in 1001. Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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Vividbleau@
My definition is that objective means among other things a correspondence with reality.
How does it differ from your definition of "truth"?Origenes
January 3, 2022
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Origenes … “I take it that your definition of ‘objective’ does not mean “independent from the subject.” Right?” My definition is that objective means among other things a correspondence with reality. Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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Vivid @
Since I can’t speak for your self awareness I can speak to mine. Based on the assumption that I am a “self” I am self aware. If true this is an objective truth apprehended by me the subject.
Assuming that you agree that this truth cannot be said to be "independent from the subject" ... and given that you want to call it an 'objective' truth anyway ... I take it that your definition of 'objective' does not contain the words "independent from the subject." Right?Origenes
January 3, 2022
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Origenes “I am self-aware” is a … ‘subjective truth’ and not an ‘objective truth’. Right? Since I can’t speak for your self awareness I can speak to mine. Based on the assumption that I am a “self” I am self aware. If true this is an objective truth apprehended by me the subject. Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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Origenes “What comes to mind is ‘self-awareness’, because without self-awareness there is no subject, and without a subject no self-awareness. Obviously, it cannot be said that self-awareness comes from a realm outside the subject. That would not make any sense. We have a problem with premise (2.), because the claim “I am self-aware” is a … ‘subjective truth’ and not an ‘objective truth’. Right?” Got it. “Obviously, it cannot be said that self-awareness comes from a realm outside the subject.” To be clear you do realize that you are assuming that there is a self? Allen Ginsburg comes to mind. Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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The argument for **objective** morality: (1.) There are self-evident moral truths. (2.) Every truth is objective [independent from the subject]. (3.) There are objective moral truths coming from the **outside**. **Note the crucial import of 'the meaning of 'objective' - -- - Let’s ask ourselves the question: Which things can be said to be inseparable from [fundamentally dependent on] the subject? What comes to mind is ‘self-awareness’, because without self-awareness there is no subject, and without a subject no self-awareness. Obviously, it cannot be said that self-awareness comes from a realm outside the subject. That would not make any sense. We have a problem with premise (2.), because the claim “I am self-aware” is a … ‘subjective truth’ and not an ‘objective truth’. Right? Not according to KF. He desperately wants the claim “I am self-aware” to be an objective truth. At some point in our debate he sort of reluctantly acknowledged that it is connected to the subject, but, he went on to argue that it is ‘objective’ nevertheless, because warrant. Because ‘warrant’? Yes, according to KF ‘objective’ has to do with warrant, self-evidence. I have pointed out that "I am self-aware" is only self-evident to the subject involved, but that didn't deter KF, somehow 'objective' doesn’t have to mean ‘independent from the subject.’ Ok. Back to the argument for objective morality. Here, KF really wants ‘objective’ first duties independent from the subject. So what does he do? Well, for one thing he gave ‘objective’ its original meaning back, namely ’independent from the subject’ ....Origenes
January 3, 2022
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The discussion about the origin of moral rules seems to take weird turns.
It certainly has. Some are proposing a model based on actual observations and consistent with known human attributes, capabilities and desires. Others are proposing a model based on their wishful thinking, erected strawman versions of the opposing model (flavor of ice cream) and emotional arguments based on the potential “negative” consequence associated with the opposing model. Oh, and some bizarre attempt to use algebra to prove that claiming that something doesn’t exist is proof that it does.
But after it was pointed out that there is an alternative explanation,… What followed were rants about abortion, homosexuality, transgender and so on.
Entertaining, weren’t they? :)
Now the argument seems to be that what we see in reality is best explained by subjective morality, and that reality can only be changed for the better by embracing objective morality.
Translation: if you don’t accept my moral values, society is going to hell in a hand basket.
For me, this is confusing. Are we debating the origin of moral rules or what?
It has never been an honest debate about the origin of moral values. It has been two or three people trying to use evidence and logic to present the most likely model for our moral values in the face of dogmatic sermons. What KF and others have failed to explain is why, if moral values are objective in nature, are the societies that arise from them indistinguishable from the possibilities we would expect from societies based on subjective moral values.Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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H'mm, IEP is also interesting, here from the prior thread:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/ Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be untenable. It is a style of reasoning that has been employed throughout the history of mathematics and philosophy from classical antiquity onwards . . . . Use of this Latin terminology traces back to the Greek expression hê eis to adunaton apagôgê, reduction to the impossible, found repeatedly in Aristotle’s Prior Analytics. In its most general construal, reductio ad absurdum – reductio for short – is a process of refutation on grounds that absurd – and patently untenable consequences would ensue from accepting the item at issue. This takes three principal forms according as that untenable consequence is: a self-contradiction (ad absurdum) a falsehood (ad falsum or even ad impossible) an implausibility or anomaly (ad ridiculum or ad incommodum) The first of these is reductio ad absurdum in its strictest construction and the other two cases involve a rather wider and looser sense of the term. Some conditionals that instantiate this latter sort of situation are: If that’s so, then I’m a monkey’s uncle. If that is true, then pigs can fly. If he did that, then I’m the Shah of Persia. What we have here are consequences that are absurd in the sense of being obviously false and indeed even a bit ridiculous. Despite its departure from what is strictly speaking so construed – conditionals with self-contradictory – time to time conclusions – this sort of thing is also characterized as an attenuated mode of reductio. But while all three cases fall into the range of the term as it is commonly used, logicians and mathematicians generally have the first and strongest of them in view. The usual explanations of reductio fail to acknowledge the full extent of its range of application. For at the very minimum such a refutation is a process that can be applied to individual propositions or theses groups of propositions or theses (that is, doctrines or positions or teachings) modes of reasoning or argumentation definitions instructions and rules of procedure practices, policies and processes The task of the present discussion is to explain the modes of reasoning at issue with reductio and to illustrate the work range of its applications.
KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2022
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The discussion about the origin of moral rules seems to take weird turns. First the argument was: look there are moral rules that no one can deny, like ‘thou shalt not kill’, there can only one possible explanation for this: “self-evident objective first duties”. IOWs at first it was argued that the existence of objective rules was the only explanation for what we see in reality. But after it was pointed out that there is an alternative explanation, namely subjective moral rules based on stable subjective dislikes, such as the stable widely shared dislike for being murdered, the argument changed. What followed were rants about abortion, homosexuality, transgender and so on. Now the argument seems to be that what we see in reality is best explained by subjective morality, and that reality can only be changed for the better by embracing objective morality. For me, this is confusing. Are we debating the origin of moral rules or what?Origenes
January 3, 2022
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JS “But you never responded to the claim that people often act on beliefs that are not true, even though they strongly believe that they are. Is this not an accurate statement? Was MLK immune from this simply because he was a minister?” For good reason because that is not the claim I was responding to. Let me remind you so you can follow along “He appealed to the Golden Rule. Rules of behavior that can be easily discerned from early teaching, feedback, experience and the human ability to predict consequences of our actions. In short, subjectively derived behaviors that best ease our life in a social setting. And, these behaviors may differ depending on the situation.” I will repeat “No he did not” “YOU express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court’s decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask, “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “An unjust law is no law at all.” “Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law. “ MLK Now in order to save face you want to move the goal post, play that game with someone else. Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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JS, by far and away most people refrain from violence and murder because of principle not fear of retaliation. That the first thing you suggest is the latter speaks volumes. KF
Tell that to little kid who has to be told not to hit. Yet, for many, the lesson isn't learned until the person hits them back. The principle you speak of is one derived subjectively through teaching, feedback, reinforcement, life experience and the human ability to predict likely consequences for actions. With all of your thousands of words you keep ignoring these facts in preference of a faith based approach that is not supported by the evidence in the world around you. And, again, you refuse to address the questions that have been repeatedly asked of you. Perhaps it is because you have no evidence based, non emotional response to them. Or maybe you have just forgotten what they were. Here they are again:
1) Given the variety of societies that exist today, and those that have been recorded throughout history, what aspects of them require the addition of objective moral values to explain them? 2) What moral value that is seen in our society can only be explained by it being objectively derived? 3) The actions that trigger our conscience change over time, even within a single individual. This fits perfectly with a subjective model. Why is it necessary to add an objective layer to this model?
Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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JS, by far and away most people refrain from violence and murder because of principle not fear of retaliation. That the first thing you suggest is the latter speaks volumes. KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2022
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PS: I searched, Wikipedia on a politically/ideologically loaded issue. I also found an early OP from this series: https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/logic-first-principles-what-about-appeal-to-consequences-vs-reductio-ad-absurdum/ Wiki concedes:
In logic, reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to absurdity"), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin for "argument to absurdity"), apagogical arguments, is the form of argument that attempts to establish a claim by showing that the opposite scenario would lead to absurdity or contradiction.[1][2][3][4] This argument form traces back to Ancient Greek philosophy and has been used throughout history in both formal mathematical and philosophical reasoning, as well as in debate.
Of course, the algebra being derided above is a case in point. Thoughtco gives us something else that is at the root of the Western Philosophical tradition: "Reductio ad absurdum is a good and necessary way to work through the logical implications of a position. Most of Plato's Republic is an account of Socrates' attempts to guide listeners to the logical conclusions of their beliefs about justice, democracy, and friendship, among other concepts, through extended bouts of reductio ad absurdum." Reductio of course is not just about incoherence, there are other ways to become absurd as Socrates often showed. For example, at Thoughtco again:
"In Plato's dialogues, Socrates often applies reductio ad absurdum to the argument of an opponent. Thus, in 'The Republic,' Thrasymachus lays down the principle that justice is the interest of the stronger. This principle he explains by saying that the power in each State is vested in the rulers, and that, therefore, justice demands that which is for the interest of the rulers. Whereupon Socrates makes him admit that it is just for subjects to obey their rulers, and also that rulers, not being infallible, may unintentionally command that which is to their own injury. 'Then justice, according to your argument,' concludes Socrates, 'is not only the interest of the stronger but the reverse.' . . . "
And of course all along JS as objector is implicitly (and mistakenly) appealing to duties to right reason. Branch on which we all sit first principles . . .kairosfocus
January 3, 2022
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Going back on the point, you do not jump off a cliff or dance on its crumbling edge because of predictable or risked or uncertain consequences.
And most people don’t go around killing people or hitting them because they know that this behavior can come back to bite them. They choose this approach not because of some objective moral value outside of the individual but because they can predict likely consequences. A subjective determination. The rest of your comment is just further argument from consequences. Now, again, how about addressing the questions that he continue to refuse to address, or even acknowledge?Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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JS, did you take a moment to look up the least regrets principle, uncertainty vs risk etc? You would have found some significant policy -- not emotive -- counsel. Going back on the point, you do not jump off a cliff or dance on its crumbling edge because of predictable or risked or uncertain consequences. There are equivalents with societies, as the parable of the ship of state warns, on the history of the failure of Athenian democracy. Crashing, or significantly likely crashing a society and/or its economy and/or its geostrategic position and/or basic stability etc to accommodate ill advised agendas and their speculative narratives is patently grossly imprudent. But then, you dismiss duty to prudence, another very good reason to regard you as having negligible credibility. Further to this you may find the form of Kant's Categorical Imperative, that a maxim should be universalisable is a pretty good indicator of the nature of evils as parasites on the host community that depend on the general behaviour not following the perversity. So, you are trying to implicitly undermine the capacity to discern evil from its perverse, destructive, chaotic effects and parasitical nature. A classic case is lying: deceit for advantage; were it the norm communication and civilisation would collapse. Far short of that, transaction costs to try to reduce risks soon make it extremely difficult to do anything of consequence other than with tight existing trust networks, often clan based. And of course, that opens the door to other abuses based on crony networks thus corrupt lawless oligarchy. This should suffice to help those willing to see, that there is a lot more to the matter than you have let on. Whoever gave you your definition does not understand sustainability, sound governance and policy analysis or the nature of evil or even the significance of prudence. KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2022
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VB: What a pitiful response.
JS: “You are entitled to your opinion. “
VB: It’s not an opinion I literally quoted MLK verbatim!!
Whether or not an opinion is pitiful is certainly an opinion. But you never responded to the claim that people often act on beliefs that are not true, even though they strongly believe that they are. Is this not an accurate statement? Was MLK immune from this simply because he was a minister?Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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JS “You are entitled to your opinion. “ It’s not an opinion I literally quoted MLK verbatim!! Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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What a pitiful response.
You are entitled to your opinion. But that doesn’t change the fact that people often act on beliefs that are not true, even though the strongly believe that they are.Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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JS “What he believed he was appealing to and what he was actually appealing to can be very different things.” What a pitiful response. MLK was quite clear on both but hey when faced with his own words, which contradict your assertions, what else can you do? Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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No he did not!!
What he believed he was appealing to and what he was actually appealing to can be very different things.Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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JS “He appealed to the Golden Rule. Rules of behavior that can be easily discerned from early teaching, feedback, experience and the human ability to predict consequences of our actions. In short, subjectively derived behaviors that best ease our life in a social setting. And, these behaviors may differ depending on the situation.” No he did not!! Furthermore this would be an argument from consequences LOL I suggest you read his letter from “The Birmingham Jail” your lack of understanding of history is astoundingly deficient.. Why someone would display their ignorance for all to see is pretty hilarious. https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf “YOU express a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern. Since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 outlawing segregation in the public schools, it is rather strange and paradoxical to find us consciously breaking laws. One may well ask, "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: there are just laws, and there are unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "An unjust law is no law at all." “Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law, or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas, an unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal and natural law. “ MLK Vividvividbleau
January 3, 2022
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Still more bad logic. Even though they didn’t always live up to their ideals, the Founding Fathers established the moral principles that were later used to free the slaves.
In their lives they never lived up to the ideals they put on paper. And are you seriously arguing that they “established” these moral principles? You do realize that slavery was abolished in other parts of the world long before it was abolished in the US.
the Founding Fathers established the moral principles that were later used to free the slaves. i.e. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness”
Unless you were black, Asian, or indigenous.
This is objective morality.
No. This is the publicly stated belief of a handful of white male property owners. If they truly believed this they would have excluded the southern states from inclusion in the union until they abolished slavery.
I reminded you earlier that Martin Luther King appealed to this same objective principle to liberate blacks from racial discrimination.
He appealed to the Golden Rule. Rules of behavior that can be easily discerned from early teaching, feedback, experience and the human ability to predict consequences of our actions. In short, subjectively derived behaviors that best ease our life in a social setting. And, these behaviors may differ depending on the situation.Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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KF, perhaps you are unaware of what an argument from consequences is.
Appeal to consequences, also known as argumentum ad consequentiam (Latin for "argument to the consequence"), is an argument that concludes a hypothesis (typically a belief) to be either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences.This is based on an appeal to emotion and is a type of informal fallacy, since the desirability of a premise's consequence does not make the premise true. Moreover, in categorizing consequences as either desirable or undesirable, such arguments inherently contain subjective points of view.
Now that you have been informed, can you please address the questions that you have studiously avoided. Without resorting to circular arguments, arguments from consequence/emotion, arguments based on false assumptions, or toppling strawman versions of subjective moral values.Joe Schooner
January 3, 2022
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Folks, the just above exchanges show precisely why unless there is recognition of branch on which we sit first duties, discussion beyond that point becomes chaotic and communities enmeshed in that find themselves on Plato's Ship of State seized by incompetent, looting mutineers. Remember, even the yardsticks of evaluating short and long term consequences are in the stakes and the mutineers think they can set up any crooked yardsticks they can get away with. Under such circumstances what they claim is good or acceptable, evidence or not evidence is suspect and part of a gradually increasingly chaotic and toxic, suicidal environment. They forget, we -- at least, some of us -- saw the Marxists in action, who had every clever argument and counter, with secret police, professional subversives and more, until things crashed irrecoverably; and we recognise the tactics of their successors, the cultural marxists, today. I only hope we do not have to crash badly like Athens, the consequences will be truly devastating -- and, being broken-backed at the foot of a cultural cliff does not fit the snide dismissiveness towards consequences, JS. You don't leap off cliffs or dance carelessly on physical cliff edges precisely because of predictable or possible consequences. There is duty to prudence, including least regrets in the face of uncertainty, where demanding that we risk crashing a civilisation to facilitate licence, perversity and political correctness etc sitting in the place of liberty and justice in a lawful state is outrageous mis-governance. And meanwhile, of course, the objectors are still appealing to our adherence to first duties to gain rhetorical traction for their arguments. Then, there is the notion that a demonstration of incoherence of attempted denial of existence of objective, knowable moral truth is question begging [appeal, improper of course to duty to right reason]. KFkairosfocus
January 3, 2022
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Joe Schooner
Thank you for being honest in that your belief in objective moral values is based on your religious beliefs and not on actual observations of societies. There is nothing wrong with this.
More bad logic. Objective moral values often cover the same ground and overlap with religious faith. That doesn't mean that the former is derived from the latter. Aristotle, an early proponent of Natural Law, was not informed by Christianity at all. How could he be? He existed centuries before Christ. I don't want to be unkind, but You keep making this same mistake even after being corrected numerous times.. SB: "The United States began that way. (founded on objective morality).
Only if you believe that it is morally acceptable to own slaves, deny rights to women, blacks, Asians and Indigenous peoples.
Still more bad logic. Even though they didn't always live up to their ideals, the Founding Fathers established the moral principles that were later used to free the slaves. i.e. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" This is objective morality. I reminded you earlier that Martin Luther King appealed to this same objective principle to liberate blacks from racial discrimination.StephenB
January 2, 2022
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It is a discussion about whether moral values are objectively or subjectively derived.
Well...some people still don't understand that if it is " a discussion " about a value that value is objective.because there is a claim of truth and truth is always objective. Secondly some people are totally trolls(or worse ) . Here we have a comment of a person who thinks that morality is subjective:
Here you are (again) arguing against the good old whimsical ice cream flavor subjectivism.
You can't make this thing up.. :) Nobody will discuss that a flavor is more true than other while here we reached 980 comments.Lieutenant Commander Data
January 2, 2022
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Surely you don’t mean that you have never heard of the fifth commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill, which also forbids wanton violence, and physical abuse?. Surely you don’t mean that you have never heard of the Sermon On the Mount, which forbids even the hateful intentions that lead to such acts?
Thank you for being honest in that your belief in objective moral values is based on your religious beliefs and not on actual observations of societies. There is nothing wrong with this.
The United States began that way.
Only if you believe that it is morally acceptable to own slaves, deny rights to women, blacks, Asians and Indigenous peoples.
You might be pleased to know, though, that your side is now winning.
It is not about who’s side is winning. It is a discussion about whether moral values are objectively or subjectively derived.
Subjective morality has produced chaos and a large number of unfortunate men and women who want to be the opposite sex
Tolerance and acceptance for homosexuality and transgendered is creating chaos? Really? How has your life changed because of this? Are you upset that people no longer laugh at your gay jokes? Are you upset that the person sitting in the next stall might have been born female? Does a woman with a deep voice give you the willies? Might I suggest that the problem is yours, not society’s.Joe Schooner
January 2, 2022
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