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You Don’t Need Darwin to Explain the Degradation of Information

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In today’s Washington Post, one reads:

If Darwin was right, for example, then scientists should be able to perform a neat trick. Using a mathematical formula that emerges from evolutionary theory, they should be able to predict the number of harmful mutations in chimpanzee DNA by knowing the number of mutations in a different species’ DNA and the two animals’ population sizes.

“That’s a very specific prediction,” said Eric Lander, a geneticist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Mass., and a leader in the chimp project.

Sure enough, when Lander and his colleagues tallied the harmful mutations in the chimp genome, the number fit perfectly into the range that evolutionary theory had predicted.

COMMENT: Darwin’s theory does not require harmful mutations but only beneficial mutations — competition for scarce resources would then provide the necessary sieve. There is no requirement in Darwin’s theory for mutations that are inherently lethal of maladaptive. Indeed, the accumulation of such mutations says nothing about the emergence of biological innovation; it merely points to the degradation of information. The same problem arises with vestigial structures (like cave fish with functionless eyes). It’s not the loss of information/function that requires explaining, but its origination in the first place.

Comments
Dave T. I'm not at all convinced that beak size changes are more random mutation than purposeful trial balloons. Ability to scale body structures seems to be a built-in adaptive mechanism. I like to look to the variability in dogs that has been accomplished by 20,000 years of human (unnatural) selection in their species. From an initial stock of jackals, wolves, and coyotes we now have hundreds of true breeding varieties that range from Chihuahuas to Irish Wolfhounds. The differences however are all a matter of scale and/or color. All are still able to interbreed and if you start mixing breeds together you work back to mongrels that resemble the jackals, wolves, and coyotes from whence they came. The same ability to rapidly make changes in scale in the wild is most strikingly exemplified in island species where animals smaller than rabbits tend to giantism and animals larger than rabbits tend to dwarfism. The recently discoverd homo floriensis is suspected to be not a new species of homo but rather a typical example of island dwarfism manifested in h.sapiens. What seems to happen is that modification in scale and coloration are always happening and the variability happens by design. Natural selection can then select the trend that better fits the environment or, in a different view, deselect the less fit trends. There doesn't appear to much about the variation that is random. What's random is which variation is more or less fit in a randomly varying environment. It's really kind of humorous watching the fossil hunters try to speciate all the different homo fossil skeletons. It's an exercise in futility. No one can ever test whether h.erectus could interbreed with h.neanderthalis since both are extinct. No one will ever be able to say with any confidence whether or not they were different species. My bet is there there's only one species in the entire homo genus because I find less difference between h.habilis and h.sapiens than I find between Chihuahuas and St. Bernards and I KNOW the latter are the same species. Why should human variability be less profound than dog variability?DaveScot
September 28, 2005
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Norman If you want to go beyond the trivially stupid in making analogies with computers and DNA you had better start talking about redundancy, error detection and correction, and unexecuted code, among other things.DaveScot
September 28, 2005
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I haven't seen a blue screen of death in years. Of course I know what I'm doing...DaveScot
September 28, 2005
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Norman, I'm not that impressed with the mathematics of the example because the definition of "harmful" for a mutation is precisely the probability with which it will cause an organism's demise. That we can then predict the future of this "harmful" mutation with mathematical exactness when it is already defined as a probability of survival is not amazing. But - I will say again - that is all beside the point. "Harmful" and "beneficial" for mutations means one thing and one thing only in Darwin's theory: Does it allow the organism to survive to reproduce? I am perfectly willing to concede that there have been plenty of "beneficial" mutations, meaning mutations that increase an organism's chance of survival. Darwin's finches and bacterial resistance to antibiotics have amply demonstrated that. The crucial question for evolutionary theory is not: How many beneficial mutations have there been? It is: Are beneficial mutations capable of creating novel types and structures? It's one thing for a mutation to increase or decrease the size of a finch's beak - an already existing structure. It is quite another for a mutation, or series of mutations, to create finches in the first place. Darwinists use the term "beneficial" equivocally to cover both trivial mutations on already existing structures (like enlarging finch beaks) and also the alleged mutations that were supposed to have created finches in the first place. They prove over and over what no one disputes, that natural selection can make minor modifications to existing structures. Or they prove that harmful mutations only survive in populations with mathematical predictability, again something no one disputes. What they never demonstrate is that mutations can create novel types and structures. It is always assumed in passing, after demonstrating the trivial. Dave T.taciturnus
September 28, 2005
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Food for thought for Norman... In the entire history of computing can you name a single instance where a random error in a computer program made the program more functional? I can't and I've been a developer in the computer industry for a very long time.DaveScot
September 28, 2005
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DaveScot wrote: "In modern computers the preemptive multitasking environment wherein most applications are developed and executed makes it difficult if not impossible to crash the system." You mean I'll never see that blue screen of death again? Hooray! But... I'm not the one who brought up crashes, I just didn't much refute the crash claim jboze3131 and Smidlee made. And the reason is as you note: "One must be developing certain classes of code with high privilege levels such as hardware device drivers, BIOS, O/S to be able to crash the system." One might to do exactly that, develop hardware device drivers, BIOS, O/S, if they took their computer off line and wrote all their own software. It's really impossible these days. You are actually supporting the point that I made earlier about different languages, comparing Turtle to C++ and assembler, that safer languages necessarily have less power.Norman Doering
September 28, 2005
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Norman Doering "The term “search space” is from people who work with genetic algorithms." Utter nonsense. You're making crap up as you go along. I was using the term "search space" decades before anyone ever heard of "genetic algorithms".DaveScot
September 28, 2005
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Norman Doering Your knowledge of computer programming is rather limited and/or dated. In modern computers the preemptive multitasking environment wherein most applications are developed and executed makes it difficult if not impossible to crash the system. One must be developing certain classes of code with high privilege levels such as hardware device drivers, BIOS, O/S to be able to crash the system.DaveScot
September 28, 2005
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Eric Anderson, re your comment (11) above, “All of these experiments shout out one central theme: populations are often able to temporarily adapt to environmental changes, while ultimately resisting fundamental change.” I’m not sure why you say that the experiments show that populations temporarily adapt to environmental changes, with the exception of the example of the peppered moth, which demonstrates a shift in allele frequency rather than micro-evolution. In the other examples, are the populations inclined to change back, even without any survival pressure in the opposite direction? It seems to me that a more correct statement would be “populations are often able to adapt to environmental changes”. The second half of your statement (“while ultimately resisting fundamental change”) appears to me conjecture. Could you name an example of such resistance? Comment by creeper — September 27, 2005 @ 5:39 amcreeper
September 28, 2005
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jboze, in response to your comment 13 above, Not all sciences lend themselves to experiments that can be repeated in a lab, generally due to factors of scale, either time or size. However, “tested” does not always mean that you can go to a lab, throw some ingredients together and conduct an experiment. It can also mean that you make a testable prediction and then observe to see if the prediction holds true. In the case of sciences that by necessity deal with events in the past, the testable predictions refer to predictions of findings. “If X is true, then we expect to find Y; if instead of Y we find Z, then X is not true.” Such a statement is then compared to all known findings, both present and future, ie. it is tested. If it holds true, it stands. The theory of evolution (a.k.a. the modern synthesis) makes such predictions, while Intelligent Design as it has been proposed to date does not, as far as I know. That is not to say that it could not, but I’m not aware of any that it has made to date. Perhaps some of the Intelligent Design advocates here could point some out. Comment by creeper — September 27, 2005 @ 5:26 amcreeper
September 28, 2005
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Mr. Davis (comment (16) above), there are fundamental flaws to the experiment you propose, as a person named ‘Eric’ was kind enough to point out to you on the very first letter on your website (http://www.amodestexperiment.org/contact.html). Your response was that these “comments have proved invaluable. The staff is now secure in their knowledge while moving forward”. To me the flaws (especially 1 and 3) appear insurmountable, and so I am curious to hear how you have changed the design of the experiment to overcome these flaws. Comment by creeper — September 27, 2005 @ 4:37 amcreeper
September 28, 2005
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jboze, the argument in your comment (9) above (and the end of (12) above) is flawed in that the theory of evolution does not posit a uniform rate of change. “an ape lik creature can evolve into a human in the amt of generations you listed, yet in over 25, 000 generations e coli couldnt evolve into anything but e coli?” You are talking about two very different organisms in very different environments. The fact that e coli changed a certain amount over 25,000 generations does not mean that it couldn’t have changed at a different rate (more, less) if environmental pressures/opportunities had been different. Or to put it another way, if you take two identical populations of e coli and leave them in different environments with different things happening around them for the same number of generations, they will not emerge having evolved identically over 25,000 generations. Comment by creeper — September 27, 2005 @ 4:16 amcreeper
September 28, 2005
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Dr. Dembski, “Indeed, the accumulation of such mutations says nothing about the emergence of biological innovation; it merely points to the degradation of information.” When a mutation turns out to be beneficial, ie. is conducive to survival/reproduction, and is hence passed on to following generations, does this not amount to information having been added? Comment by creeper — September 27, 2005 @ 3:50 amcreeper
September 28, 2005
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jboze3131 wrote: "...even if you took your computer off the net and wrote all your own programs and you had perfect knowledge to write perfect programs,..." That's a very arrogant assumption you're making -- how is it you know what perfect knowledge of programming could do? jboze3131 wrote: "...youd still get file rot youd still get bugs and glitches that had nothing to do with outside sources." That's not spam, adware, spyware, virus, trojans, crashes, etc., is it. You're changing the subject to entropy. jboze3131 wrote: "... youd still get fragmented data strewn all over the drive that would eventually mean the need to totally erase and reformat the drive." How is it someone with perfect knowledge couldn't do that when I can already defrag my computer without resorting to reformating the hard drive? jboze3131 wrote: "... the computer itself will do what anything else does- run towards chaos and disorder which are both harmful in the short and long term." Yep. But that totally misses the point.Norman Doering
September 28, 2005
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I think the problem with Dr. Dembski's argument is that he quickly states what evolution requires. Firstly, Darwin didn't know genetics, so "Darwinism" is one thing, modern evolutionary biology another. (Darwin realized he 'required' a science of genetics though!) EB (Evolutionary biology)has to posit a source of heritable variation and a mechanism for selection. The source of variation is of course, mutation. But I think it is misleading to say that all that evolution requires is helpful, positive mutation. EB first of all, then, simply requires mutations, helpful or not. So maladaptive mutations are actually covered under this part. Some of these mutations, however, must of course be at least neutral/positive if the organism isn't going to drop dead on the spot (in the womb, etc). Secondly, Dr. Dembski states that degradation of information does not require explanation. An interesting point, I'm going to mull that over. Why, though? I wonder if because entropy is natural and that all ordered processes will degrade over time, through generations, etc? Perhaps the fact of information degradation is taken for granted, but still, there are many ways for information to degrade, so it still seems vital to study the loss itself. In his technical parlance, the loss (not just the creation) of CSI should itself be fascinating and worthy of study. Don't all processes require explanation? Shouldn't scientists study all biological processes? Aren't EB's and ID's explanations of degradation of genetic info liable to differ? And might not the theoretical differences between the different answers lead to insights? Improvements on the theory, either side? Hm. At any rate, a mutation is not necessarily a degradation. Certainly not so in absolute terms. If one's standard is maintaining the integrity of the original gene, then surely a mutation is a loss, a degradation. However, if the resulting gene is different, or starts leading down another path, then it may simultaneously be a degradation of the original gene and a ... what? lateral drift, or neutral modification as well(or just helpful, too)? The mutations that caused the varities of hemoglobin were degradations as well as simultaneously being positive as well. I guess what I'm thinking is that this single axis of comparison, that a mutation as degradation is no big deal if explained, well this doesn't seem promising. I think what bugs me about the argument is that Dr. Dembski's point seems overly restrictive. EB makes a variety of predictions. If some of these predictions concern unhelpful mutations, then why isn't this helpul or valuable, and therefore worth praise, scientifically? EB is 'required' to study all mutations, not just helpful ones. If EB can make sense of genes when they go awry and when they change to something unhelpful, isn't this good? I don't see why the predictions of this model should be snarked at, discounted. The theory has a model that was confirmed. Cool. ( Conceding a point needn't mean buying into the whole theory. We of course admit both sides have some merit to them. How much is of course, to be determined by examining the evidence.After all, if Dr. Dembski states that ID can coexist with evolution (as I heard him say on The Daily Show), then isn't ID really just a subset of evolution, anyway? Isn't all this either/or talk misleading? What's more wasteful of resources than one or the other being true?) I think the weakness of his statement is clearest when we reflect upon this: "Indeed, the accumulation of such mutations says nothing about the emergence of biological innovation; it merely points to the degradation of information. The same problem arises with vestigial structures (like cave fish with functionless eyes). It’s not the loss of information/function that requires explaining, but its origination in the first place." Actually, from what I know of EB, the accumulation of mutations does indeed say something about biological innovation. The accumulation of mutations is a loss only compared to the origanal gene. This accumulation may lead to a different or better form of information. Mutations may build atop one another and lead to novel functions. That's not loss, its emergent adaptivity, i.e. the enhancement of information. Also, this point about vestigial structures seems to discount them as meaningful evidence at all. I have to admit, this just puzzles me. Vestigial structures are extremely exciting as evidence. EB doesn't disagree that they exhibit loss of function/information. Quite the contrary! EB affirms they exhibit said loss - that's the point! The fact that you can find worthless eyes in organisms that live in the dark is fascinating, because it begs the question - why were they designed this way in the first place? So framing vestigial structures as a simple loss of function/information that requires no explanation - is strange - it seems to miss the point that EB can make positive use of them. This ties into what I said earlier, that EB is required to explain all mutations, not just beneficial ones. By explaining helpful/unhelpful mutations, EB is covering wide intellectual turf, and that's kinda cool. In sum, I understand that Dr. Dembski is using 'requires' in the sense that for evolution to occur, neutral/helpful mutations must emerge. Sure. But to discount any findings on unhelpful mutations seems so strange. This article was just showing one of the ways that Evo Biologists support the claim that their theory explains a whole range of data. In fact, an evolutionist, reading this very comment, would probably say that this just shows how Dr. Dembski is applying an incorrect criterion or simply irrelevant criticism to the article. Blinders are on. This article is about how EB made a prediction that seemed to be validated. Not that the researchers had made a prediction about mutations that lead to new function, or was helpful. After all, studying maladaptive mutations is support not of speciation, but of a different aspect of EB: say, natural selection or some population genetics model. No big deal. Lastly, I disagree with Professor Dembski's claim that informational loss needn't be explained, as already discussed above. Now, I'm not saying EB is perfect, of course. That's ridiculous. I just think this particular comment was ... not so helpful. Incidentally, I am new here, hello to everyone. I enjoy reading the posts, they are vigorously debated and quite informed. I may need to print them out and start reading line by line! Esp. Professor Demsbki's. I apologize if this was wordy, I am learning as I think and write, and I think this blog is pretty cool. Smedleysmedley
September 27, 2005
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even if you took your computer off the net and wrote all your own programs and you had perfect knowledge to write perfect programs, youd still get file rot. youd still get bugs and glitches that had nothing to do with outside sources. youd still get fragmented data strewn all over the drive that would eventually mean the need to totally erase and reformat the drive. the computer itself will do what anything else does- run towards chaos and disorder which are both harmful in the short and long term. in the case of an ultimate designer, im not sure of one religion that proposes a desinger who created perfection in this world. esp. not the big 3 religions. they all teach that the designer gave man free will and man turned his back on god- which would totally make sense with a designer...once "the fall" took place, things started on a trend to disorder and more chaos. even if we take another example like the automobile, its like saying its not a designed object because it will eventually break down, parts will need to be replaced, outside objects have to be added (fuel, fluids and lubricants, oil, etc), and things will never run perfectly with it. the intelligently created automobile cant repair itself, the cell on the other hand CAN repair itself. if we know the lesser of the two is designed, how far a stretch is it to see that the higher of the two (life, cells, biology in general, flawed as it may be) is also designed?jboze3131
September 27, 2005
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ed wrote: "... looks like we were both wrong. ...It was predicted more than 30 years ago that selection against deleterious mutations would depend on population size, with mutations being strongly selected only if they reduce fitness by s>>1/4N (where N is effective population size). And the reference is to T. Ohta, Nature 246, 96−98 (1973)." I'm still guessing Ohta was quoting Sewall Wright. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewall_Wright And you could still be right too. I have no idea who T. Ohta is. My gut feeling is he didn't originate the idea. Smidlee wrote: "I can’t help to laugh at that statement for all the “Harmful mutations” I keep getting on my computer. So my PC must not be design with all the spam ,adware,spyware, virus,trojans,crashes, etc. I get all the time. I hate spyware for it so tough to keep my PC clean from them." Well it's not designed by a single designer, most of the spam, adware, spyware, virus, trojans, crashes, etc. are the result of a competetive and predatory environment -- especially on the net. Just take your computer off line and write your own programs and you won't have that problem -- or the benefits. You're intelligent right? so, isn't that enough reason to assume you don't need the net to get your programs and data? Why can't you be your own intelligent designer? Are you not intelligent enough?Norman Doering
September 27, 2005
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Norman wrote " If there were no harmful mutations that would be a sign of design." I can't help to laugh at that statement for all the "Harmful mutations" I keep getting on my computer. So my PC must not be design with all the spam ,adware,spyware, virus,trojans,crashes, etc. I get all the time. I hate spyware for it so tough to keep my PC clean from them.Smidlee
September 27, 2005
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Norman, it looks like we were both wrong. The original Nature article states:"It was predicted more than 30 years ago that selection against deleterious mutations would depend on population size, with mutations being strongly selected only if they reduce fitness by s>>1/4N (where N is effective population size)." And the reference is to T. Ohta, Nature 246, 96−98 (1973).ed
September 27, 2005
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ed wrote: "Doesn’t the 'quirky prediction' stem from Kimura’s neutral theory of molecular evolution?" Not to my knowledge. I think it was Seawall Wright who came up with the "1/population" prediction. But I'm not sure. Can you source your claim? I can't source mine -- yet. "... I thought it was considered antithetical to neo-Darwinism, since it says that most of the genetic variability within species at the molecular level is selectively neutral." Depends on what you mean by "neo-Darwinism." I think that's a broad group of people with somewhat different ideas. taciturnus wrote: "...the problem with natural selection isn’t that it is nonsense, but that it is a tautology." It's a tautology only because it's a part of Darwin's theory that you agree with. It's like saying "square roots exist." However, the next step is using the fact of square roots to discover other mathematical truths. That's where you start disagreeing. The other part of Darwin's theory requires that possible random mutations will be in a range of a mix of neutral, harmful and beneficial accidents and the necessary consequence of natural selection is more neutral and beneficial than harmful mutations accumulate because of natural selection. You deny that any beneficial, or say too low a beneficial, rate happens. Thus you are saying something about what is called the "search space" of the problem. What you are saying about that space is, I think, wrong. The term "search space" is from people who work with genetic algorithms. Evolution by mutation and natural selection is an iterative procedure that searches an abstract space of permutations of finite strings of "symbols," it's all the possible genomes that you can string together. The DNA is encoding a possible solution to a given problem space (environment, the problem of living and reproducing in a competetive environment). This space is called the search space, it comprises all possible solutions to the problem at hand and also negative permutations. Generally speaking, a genetic algorithm is applied to spaces which are too large to be exhaustively searched. You are saying there are too few beneficial mutations too find using natural selection and random mutation as a procedure. You do not in fact know that. taciturnus wrote: "...So the “quirky result” of the experiment is that harmful mutations (defined as those that decrease the organisms likelihood it will leave offspring) tend not to persist because the organisms with them…. tend not to persist. In other words, those organisms with mutations that tend to make them not survive have a tendency not to survive. Definitely true, but hardly unexpected." And you leave out the fact that the amount is measurable. That's like saying, "so what, you take the square root of 64 and you obviously get a smaller number than 64," and you don't care if it's 8, thus you reject square roots as a mathematical tool. In this case, the "1/population," the tool is being used to measure something you don't like, so you deny it and yet trudge through Dembski's math instead. If you're going to be honest you have to go through both and compare. taciturnus wrote: "...And, as usual, the real issue is never even addressed. Darwin’s theory purported to explain, not how bad mutations persist or fail to persist, but how good mutations lead to new structures and species." That's the other implied measurement of "1/population" and there is an amount by which beneficial mutations increase too. Sewall Wright might be the person to read there. Or maybe Kimura if ed is correct. Otherwise you are speaking out of ignorance. taciturnus wrote: "This is how it always goes: Bait and switch by proving the trivial and assuming the difficult." I just read the article, and I can see why you say that, but you are, I think, wrong.Norman Doering
September 27, 2005
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Doesn't the "quirky prediction" stem from Kimura's neutral theory of molecular evolution? I don't know what the latest spin on that is, but I thought it was considered antithetical to neo-Darwinism, since it says that most of the genetic variability within species at the molecular level is selectively neutral.ed
September 27, 2005
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russ wrote: "So if for some reason, the mutation process were shown to produce only good or neutral changes, but did so randomly (in the same way that a random coin toss can only produce heads or tails), then evolution would not occur?" If there were no harmful mutations that would be a sign of design. It would mean that the genetic language itself had been designed so it couldn't make mistakes. Evolution of a sort would occur but probably only in a very limited and narrow way. This is because if you rid the possibility of errors in a language you also rid it of its creative power. Think of computer languages, there is a language called "Turtle" that you teach to kids so they can make a little icon or robot turtle crawl and draw pictures. You can't make a mistake with that language -- anything you write will make the turtle draw something. But you'll never write a useful program in that language. If you assembler or C++, you can write useful programs -- but you can also crash your computer. This is a necessary property of instruction sets. "It would seem to me that only positive or neutral mutations would make evolution even more powerful and effective than its claimed to be. Or is a coin toss not random unless you have a three-sided coin?" Neutrality is the most common result of mutation because DNA can code for the same protiens with different sequences. And often, different protiens will do the same job.Norman Doering
September 27, 2005
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Russ, I haven't looked at the particular case in any detail, so I wouldn't go so far as to say it is nonsense. And the problem with natural selection isn't that it is nonsense, but that it is a tautology. Phil Johnson has an excellent discussion of this in "Darwin on Trial." Reading the Post article, it looks like what the experiment demonstrated was true but trivial. As the article explains, harmful mutations are those that cause the organism not to leave offspring: "If the trait does help an organism survive, that individual will be more likely to reproduce. Its offspring will then inherit the change. They, in turn, will have an advantage over organisms that are identical except for that one beneficial change. Over time, the descendants that inherited what might be termed the "happy accident" will outnumber the descendants of its less fit, but initially far more numerous, brethren." The proposition under test was: "Lander's experiment tested a quirky prediction of evolutionary theory: that a harmful mutation is unlikely to persist if it is serious enough to reduce an individual's odds of leaving descendants by an amount that is greater than the number one divided by the population of that species." So the "quirky result" of the experiment is that harmful mutations (defined as those that decrease the organisms likelihood it will leave offspring)tend not to persist because the organisms with them.... tend not to persist. In other words, those organisms with mutations that tend to make them not survive have a tendency not to survive. Definitely true, but hardly unexpected. And, as usual, the real issue is never even addressed. Darwin's theory purported to explain, not how bad mutations persist or fail to persist, but how good mutations lead to new structures and species. The meat of Darwin's theory is simply assumed as a matter of course: "As additional "happy accidents" alter an organism's descendants over millions of years, those descendants will come to look less and less like other organisms with which they share a common ancestor. Eventually, the descendants will be able to mate only with each other. They will be lions and tigers -- each a distinct species, but both descended from the same ancient cat." This is how it always goes: Bait and switch by proving the trivial and assuming the difficult.taciturnus
September 27, 2005
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taciturnus: Thanks for the reply. I see your point. Does this mean, then, that the quote below is gobbledy-gook? He labels some mutations "harmful". "If Darwin was right, for example, then scientists should be able to perform a neat trick. Using a mathematical formula that emerges from evolutionary theory, they should be able to predict the number of harmful mutations in chimpanzee DNA by knowing the number of mutations in a different species’ DNA and the two animals’ population sizes."russ
September 27, 2005
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Russ, There is an underlying problem with what it even means for a mutation to be "good", "bad" or "neutral". Suppose every mutation were "good" in some abstract sense. Some organisms would die out anyway because life is a competition for scarce resources. Not everybody can survive. Are these mutations still "good"? Mutations don't have to be "good", just "good enough" in the context of the organisms survival. In some cases, a mutation that is "good" in the abstract won't be good enough and the organism will die out. In other cases, even an abstractly "bad" mutation might allow the organism to survive if the organism happens to be fortunate and find itself in an environmental situation of limited competitiveness. The very same mutation might be "good" in some circumstances and "bad" in others. So I'm not sure that describing mutations as "good", "bad" or "neutral" in the abstract really means a whole lot. There is only one test for mutations in evolution: Survival. If an organism mutates and survives to reproduce, it was a good mutation. If it mutates and dies without reproducing, it was a bad mutation. Since it is a necessity that some organisms live and others die, it is a logical necessity that there will always be good and bad mutations. As Bill has pointed out, this is all beside the point. Call the mutations whatever you want, good, bad, neutral, Red Sox, Yankees, it doesn't matter. The problem is, where does the information come from to generate the novel types and structures that evolution says are produced by unintelligent processes?taciturnus
September 27, 2005
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Dr. Bill, delete this message if its a tangent, but I found the following at evolutionnews.org. It's reporting on the ACLU lawsuit against the Dover, PA school district: "Also, in yesterday’s testimony, Miller called attention to a factual error in [Of]Pandas[and People]. In today’s questioning, he conceded that the 'elephant' edition of his own high school biology textbook contained an error, describing evolution as a 'random and undirected process.' Miller said that that wasn’t a scientific statement, and it was removed from subsequent editions." Is evolution "random and undirected" or not? Is it "random" but not "undirected"? Does Miller differ with the "science establishment" on this point? Is the textbook wrong because it's philosophy and not science?russ
September 27, 2005
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Dr. Dembski wrote: “There is no requirement in Darwin’s theory for mutations that are inherently lethal of maladaptive.” Norman Doering wrote: It’s implied if the changes are *RANDOM* then they wouldn’t all be good or neutral. So, you’re wrong. Darwin’s theory does require harmful mutations because that’s part of being random. Also...I think what Bill is saying is that the "power" of evolution is positive mutations, not negative ones. The greater the influence of negative mutations, the less likely it is that evolution will produce more complex life. I don't see how geneticist Lander's trumpeting of the existance of obstacles to his theory is somehow a vindication of that theory.russ
September 27, 2005
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Dr. Dembski wrote: “There is no requirement in Darwin’s theory for mutations that are inherently lethal of maladaptive.” Norman Doering wrote: "It’s implied if the changes are *RANDOM* then they wouldn’t all be good or neutral. So, you’re wrong. Darwin’s theory does require harmful mutations because that’s part of being random." So if for some reason, the mutation process were shown to produce only good or neutral changes, but did so randomly (in the same way that a random coin toss can only produce heads or tails), then evolution would not occur? It would seem to me that only positive or neutral mutations would make evolution even more powerful and effective than its claimed to be. Or is a coin toss not random unless you have a three-sided coin?russ
September 27, 2005
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"It’s not the loss of information/function that requires explaining" Exactly right, Bill. Loss of information is devolution not evolution. No one is surprised at random mutation + natural selection working to preserve the status quo. RM+NS as a conservative force that stabilizes a species against change is amply demonstrated. What's totally lacking is empirical evidence that the same mechanism can generate novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans.DaveScot
September 27, 2005
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Simians to humans in 13 million years isn't the big mystery as there's no new cell types, tissue types, organs, or body plans involved in the transition. There's really no macro-evolution there. One mammal to another almost anatomically identical mammal in 13my is no huge step. What I want to know is how primitive chordates changed into simians in 500my. This is only about 40x more time for evolution to operate but the anatomical differences are huge. There's a great amount of macroevolution. A plethora of novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans had to evolve along a path that, in the most recent 13my, generated exactly ZERO novel cell types, tissue types, organs, and body plans. If evolution could turn a primitive notochord into an ape-like human ancestor 500my then evolution taking the ape-like ancestor into a human in 13my is a walk in the park by comparison.DaveScot
September 27, 2005
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