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You Don’t Need Darwin to Explain the Degradation of Information

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In today’s Washington Post, one reads:

If Darwin was right, for example, then scientists should be able to perform a neat trick. Using a mathematical formula that emerges from evolutionary theory, they should be able to predict the number of harmful mutations in chimpanzee DNA by knowing the number of mutations in a different species’ DNA and the two animals’ population sizes.

“That’s a very specific prediction,” said Eric Lander, a geneticist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Mass., and a leader in the chimp project.

Sure enough, when Lander and his colleagues tallied the harmful mutations in the chimp genome, the number fit perfectly into the range that evolutionary theory had predicted.

COMMENT: Darwin’s theory does not require harmful mutations but only beneficial mutations — competition for scarce resources would then provide the necessary sieve. There is no requirement in Darwin’s theory for mutations that are inherently lethal of maladaptive. Indeed, the accumulation of such mutations says nothing about the emergence of biological innovation; it merely points to the degradation of information. The same problem arises with vestigial structures (like cave fish with functionless eyes). It’s not the loss of information/function that requires explaining, but its origination in the first place.

Comments
Here's a prediction. Based upon intelligent design theory I predict that Lenski's 25,000 generations of e.coli subjected to unnatural stress will have evolved exactly ZERO novel cell types, tissue types, organs, or body plans. Where's my Nobel prize?DaveScot
September 27, 2005
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Dr. Dembski wrote: "Darwin’s theory does not require harmful mutations but only beneficial mutations..." Actually, it requires RANDOM mutations -- that's not just harmful and beneficial, but also neutral. And what's harmful for one environmental niche could help in another. Harmful mutations are an indication that the changes are indeed random, not planned. Dr. Dembski wrote: "There is no requirement in Darwin’s theory for mutations that are inherently lethal of maladaptive." It's implied if the changes are *RANDOM* then they wouldn't all be good or neutral. So, you're wrong. Darwin's theory does require harmful mutations because that's part of being random. Dr. Dembski wrote: "It’s not the loss of information/function that requires explaining, but its origination in the first place." It depends on the balance of harmful, neutral and beneficial genetic codes for a world of varied environments. Imagine an abstract space that represents every possible combination of genetic codes -- from the simplist bacterial genomes to human genomes. There are more potential codes in this space than there are electrons in the entire universe. Pick any random genetic code out of that "search space" and what are the odds it will lead to a dead cell, or a living and reproducing cell? It's those odds that will begin to answer your questions.Norman Doering
September 26, 2005
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David, It *is* interesting that I've heard that exact same soundbite definition of ID used by all the major media and that the uniformity seems to have come about in only the past two weeks.Watchman
September 26, 2005
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FishyFred: Several things: 1) the 96% thing is bogus. That is only counting the protein-coding portion. The real magic of DNA is in the non-coding regions. When you count those, preliminary results have it at about 90% shared DNA. 2) DNA is not where the magic happens anyway. Recent studies have shown that the cellular structure itself is inherited. Structural inheritance is much more powerful than DNA inheritance, and is much less tolerant of change. 3) By standard calculations, 5 million years is not enough time to fix even a few thousand mutations into the genome. Remember that not only must the mutation occur, it must become fixed within the population. 4) It appears that they have discounted the possibility of the mutations being directed, solely on the basis of each mutation being different. Whole-genome studies have shown that cells do indeed have hotspots of mutation. The problem is that scientists have assumed that direciton==deterministic, when in fact they are not the same. A directed algorithm can still be non-deterministic. Nylonase shows that this does indeed appear to be the case (see the first blog entry at http://crevo.blogspot.com/ )johnnyb
September 26, 2005
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mmadigan: I would put the exact same statements to you.FishyFred
September 26, 2005
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Well, actually that's two questions :).crandaddy
September 26, 2005
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I just saw a clip on the news about the Dover trial, and I have a question: In their coverage, they said that the Intelligent Design side wants to have ID taught as an "alternative to evolution" and that it claims that some structures are so complex that they MUST have been designed. The first point is very misleading, and the second is blatantly false. This kind of media coverage is not uncommon; in fact, almost every time I see, read, or hear the mainstream media define ID, they make these two points about it. Why can't they get it right? Isn't the media obliged to unbiased reporting? Davidcrandaddy
September 26, 2005
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As for chimps and humans, I'm with Dennis Prager and wish that the DNA match was even closer to 100%. That would make the comparison even more absurd. It's reductionism gone mad.Lurker
September 26, 2005
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The thing that I find most irritating about the Intelligent Design vs. Methodological Naturalism debate (ID does NOT challenge evolution, as its opponents would love the naive public to believe.) is that the MN side perpetually insists that ID isn't science and then turns around uses scientific arguments against it. Incredible! Davidcrandaddy
September 26, 2005
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"If darwin was right, for example, then scientist should be able to perform a neat trick." - Darwinists does seems to have evolved performing neat tricks since Darwin's day. You got to love science articles like this that uses phrases like "happy accidents", "once upon a time", "the story is still evolving" "That a mechanism driven by random events should result in perfectly adapted organisms (surprise they use perfect here) --- so many different types--- seems illogical" - This statement from the article seems to be the results of intelligent design while the rest seem more like "happy accidents."Smidlee
September 26, 2005
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As some of you know, I am working on a modest experiment to determine the final truth of Intelligent Design vs. random-mutations-theory and it is going smashingly well. We have well over 560,000 volunteers, and more than a million beakers being set up in laboratories and homes across the country, and even also in other countries too. However, we need more volunteers and more beakers. Our modest experiment is set to begin in less than a week, and we are tantalizingly close to our goal of 60 million beakers. With your help we should be able to surpass that goal by Saturday. Please, volunteer.Bob Davis
September 26, 2005
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Perhaps I should have said; a willing resistance to the evidencemmadigan
September 26, 2005
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Isn't this the basic problem? The science is not convincing to 90% of us. You have to have a degree of willing gullibilty to be a darwinite.mmadigan
September 26, 2005
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eric points to a major prob with evolution science. scientists always claim Y and X arent truly science because they cannot be tested and repeated with evidence we can actually put our hands on...with bio evolution, they say its a science and the only theory that makes sense, yet the evidence is nonexistant (unless theres a lab somewhere secretly testing macroevolutionary change!) and the evidence is such that we cant directly test it and repeat the tests. so science means one thing when trying to deny theories like ID ARE truly science, but then they change the meaning with macroevolution and its ROCK SOLID science that no real scientist doubts.jboze3131
September 26, 2005
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i said they didnt change one bit in the sense that they didnt change to ANYTHING new. they started as e coli, then they changed into what? slightly bigger e coli that were dealing with their environment. the fact remains the diff between a human and a chimp is giant. thats why chimps are in zoos. humans arent. humans dont fling their feces onto each other. chimps do. lets face it- they might be close in regards to dna, but so what? plants and humans share 20% genetically, and no one is going to say man is very plant like. a common body plan is a must. a designer would use it and evolution would cause it. its about intrepreation of the data. anyway, like i said- humans and chimps are hugely different...if it WAS 124, 000 generations (no idea if thats the case or not), and we have such a huge change from chimp-like cvreature to man, then in 25, 000 generations we should see SOME speciation among e coli, but we saw absolutely none. even the article admits as much, saying that the changes that took place in response to the environment "MIGHT EVENTUALLY" make them into different species- tho the experiments have shown no evidence that this is the case. no change in 25, 000 generations under GUIDED processes via an INTELLIGENT BEING cannot make any change to a new life form, but unguided, purposeless, "happy accidents" lead to a GIANT change between a chimp-like being to a scientist in 124, 000 generations? that defies all logic.jboze3131
September 26, 2005
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Thanks, FishyFred for at least attempting to quantify the timeframe and number of generations involved in human evolution from the last common ancestor. I'm willing to be more generous and allow for your 13M-year assumption and to use 20-year generations. That gives us 650,000 generations. We may now rightly ask, what does that number of generations demonstrate? If you are holding out hope that evolution in the macro sense will eventually be demonstrated if Lenski's e coli experiment runs for several more years, then by all means you are free to cling to that hope. (Holding out hope that the theory would eventually be supported by new data was of coure Darwin's approach as well.) But this is a far cry from demonstrating that "there's plenty of time for evolution to take its course." In fact, that only data we do have seem to point in a very different direction. Take all the classic "evolutionary" examples: e coli, peppered moths, finches, insects and insecticides, etc. All of these experiments shout out one central theme: populations are often able to temporarily adapt to environmental changes, while ultimately resisting fundamental change. Further, there is absolutely not one iota of experimental evidence that the kinds of tiny changes manifest in finch beaks or Lenski's e coli can add up to large scale change. Finally, there is no reason (other than personal philosophy) for us to believe that 342,857 generations or 650,000 generations or even 10 times that many generations is sufficient to bring humans to their current state from the supposed last common ancestor via the alleged mechanisms of evolution. The only experiments that have been carried out suggest that simply adding more time is not going to help with significant evoltionary progression.Eric Anderson
September 26, 2005
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My bad. I looked at human ancestors diverging from orangutangs at 13 million years and read it wrong. 124,000+ generations is still plenty of time for a 4% total change in DNA to diverge from chimpanzees. Also, you're going back on your statements. First you expressed skepticism based on the finding that it took 25,000 generations for the first signs of speciation to make themselves visible in a controlled environment. Now you conveniently say that the bacteria "couldn't change one bit."FishyFred
September 26, 2005
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an ape lik creature can evolve into a human in the amt of generations you listed, yet in over 25, 000 generations e coli couldnt evolve into anything but e coli? do you not see the problem here. apes to man is a BIG change. e coli couldnt change one bit into anything BUT e coli over tens of thousands of yrs. given the fact that the timeline shows that humans diverged from the line of chimps only 5 million yrs ago...it makes even less sense. in less than half the time you listed for man to seperate from apes, man supposedly developed into a thinking being with language, intelligence, the ability to perform science, medicine, etc. from a chimp like creature in about the same generation span that e coli changed into...well, e coli! the evidence doesnt fit the model. not even close!jboze3131
September 26, 2005
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Using this timeline of evolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution That timeline asserts that humans speciated from apes around 13 million years ago. Going totally conservative and giving humans a lifespan of 35 years as a generation (because until about 300-500 years ago, and maybe even more recent, humans had lifespans of about 30 years)... To be even more conservative, I'll use 12 million years... 12,000,000 years divided by 35 year increments = 342,857 generations (plus decimals). I'd say there's plenty of time for evolution to take its course.FishyFred
September 26, 2005
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yeah. the article talks about e coli and says 25, 000 generations (well, it says OVER 25, 000 generations)...if no species change can take place in that many generations, how are we supposed to believe 10 million different species evolved without ANY intelligent help or guidance (merely happy accidents!) in an even shorter amt of time????! with the fruit flies, they mutated them so much they sped the rates up to the point where it was equivalent to millions of yrs of evolution in nature, yet nothing but fruit flies in the end. hello! these same scientists who used their intelligent minds to try to do this and failed to make anything but fruit flies want us to believe that man evolved from an ape like creature in less time!!jboze3131
September 26, 2005
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I am amazed (but then again, not that much) that some people believe that fruit flies turning into fruit flies somehow is evidence that a cat and a potatoe have a common ancestor.Mats
September 26, 2005
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So, in other words, what your saying is, that they tried 25,000 tries and still no new species emerged? If that's what you are saying, then, don't be surprised to find out that it's not the only example. Look to the fruit flies and they will tell you.Benjii
September 26, 2005
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This apparent "prediction" of harmful mutations is explained by the following definition of macroevolution: Macroevolution is simply microevolution plus phlogiston, multiplied by epicycles. Historians of science are more likely to note the point that I am trying to make with this pithy – and quite brilliant – comment. :) Phlogiston chemistry was the failed idea that all combustible bodies contained phlogiston and LOST phlogiston on combustion. However, empirical evidence noted that metals GAINED weight upon combustion, which was contradictory to the predictions of phlogiston theory. Of course, this was no problem for the proponents for phlogiston, who then invoked an ad hoc rationalization that phlogiston had negative weight! Therefore, phlogiston chemistry was adjusted to “predict” a gain in weight upon combustion. It was then praised for its “explanatory power” and its fulfilled “predictions”. Such logical gymnastics are eerily familiar to those employed by Darwinists. The epicycles are an obvious reference to Ptolemaic astronomy, which explained away retrograde movement by concocting layer upon layer of epicycles. The supporters of Ptolemaic astronomy then gloated about their “successful” theory because no contradictory evidence existed. Again, this behavior is remarkably similar to that employed by DarwinDefenders. With the history of science in mind, it becomes clear what I am attempting to point out when I say that “Macroevolution is simply microevolution plus phlogiston, multiplied by epicycles.” NEWSFLASH: Darwinism doesn't "predict" biologic universals. Darwinism doesn't "predict" harmful mutations. Darwinism doesn't "predict" that various organisms will be equally divergent from bacteria because of some mysterious "clock". Darwinism doesn't "predict" the hierarchical pattern of nature. Darwinism, like any failing metaphysical worldview, simply ACCOMMODATES these observations. And would easily accommodate their exact opposites.morpheusfaith
September 26, 2005
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this part of the article amazed me- ------------------------------- "Richard E. Lenski, a biologist at Michigan State University, has been following 12 cultures of the bacterium Escherichia coli since 1988, comprising more than 25,000 generations. All 12 cultures were genetically identical at the start. For years he gave each the same daily stress: six hours of food (glucose) and 18 hours of starvation. All 12 strains adapted to this by becoming faster consumers of glucose and developing bigger cell size than their 1988 "parents." When Lenski and his colleagues examined each strain's genes, they found that the strains had not acquired the same mutations. Instead, there was some variety in the happy accidents that had allowed each culture to survive. And when the 12 strains were then subjected to a different stress -- a new food source -- they did not fare equally well. In some, the changes from the first round of adaptation stood in the way of adaptation to the new conditions. The 12 strains had started to diverge, taking the first evolutionary steps that might eventually make them different species -- just as Darwin and Wallace predicted." ------------------------------- earth to scientists!! 25, 000 generations and still NO new species?!?! at the end of this section, you see they add "The 12 strains had started to diverge, taking the first evolutionary steps that might eventually make them different species -- just as Darwin and Wallace predicted." that's not science!! that's nonsense! can someone explain to me how long darwinists think a new species takes to come about? is 25, 000 generations not enough?! and notice how there was no species change, and suddenly they equate diverging traits with a totally new species! these changes MIGHT EVENTUALLY lead to new species, but no scientist in history has ever been able to show this to be the case! they talk about how all life share many of the same genes. wouldnt that be support for an intelligent designer? its all about how you interpret the evidence. a designer would, of course, use many of the same genes and chemicals, acids, etc! that doesnt prove common ancestry at all. the experiments with the 25, 000 generations is enough to prove that even intelligent man cannot get life to change into a new life form. the bacteria started out as bacteria, over 25, 000 generations they were STILL bacteria, the SAME bacteria as before with just various adaptive traits and nothing else. when will science wake up and stop refusing to look at the evidence? they say in this article that its a fact that all life has common ancestry via billions of "happy accidents", then they show this experiment where even a scientist FULL of intelligence cant get any new forms to come from bacteria. the second should be the death of the theories in the first part, but somehow they still stand by the premise! what does that mean? scientists arent as smart as happy accidents? if theyre not even to the level where they can match happy accidents, why on earth should we trust what they say about these happy accidents to begin with?!jboze3131
September 26, 2005
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I can only beg deeply to differ!Benjii
September 26, 2005
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Ken Miller is, or has, testified before the jury in Dover. He says the only problem for Darwinism is just explaining the origin of gender. Everything else(i.e. Cambrian Explosion, Homologies, irreducible complexity) has been answered satisfactoraly.Benjii
September 26, 2005
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