Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A “remarkable fact”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Let’s take again that quotation out of Richard Dawkins’ “The Greatest Show on Earth (pp. 332-333)”, published as many ages ago as the year 2009, quoted at http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/in_debate_brita_1064521.html

Leaving pseudogenes aside, it is a remarkable fact that the greater part (95 percent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes.

Now, what here Dawkins calls a “remarkable fact”, turns out only three years later to be known (such that even he agrees, as the above link shows) to be totally false. It’s not even close; it’s as large an error as one could make in a propositional statement.

Not only that, but, this totally false statement is in an area of Dawkins’ speciality. Dawkins’ area of specialist study is evolutionary biology; and one of his specialist areas within that general area is in gene theory. Judging through qualifications and positions, Dawkins is as close as you could get to an expert. He was employed in a position with Oxford University to promote good science to the public. And yet here, in one of his “home” areas, he was, just three years ago, talking complete twaddle.

Regardless of whether you think Dawkins is brilliant or a fool, this ought to give some pause for thought about wider questions, ought it not? The link above shows that Dawkins himself is apparently remarkably unphased by it. But he surely ought to be.

Perhaps we could invite UD’s resident Darwinists and/or Dawkins-fans and general atheists to consider a few questions.

What other areas of his specialist subject, which he pronounces dogmatically upon, are you prepared to accept that Dawkins might be totally wrong about? Does that concern you? Are his other interpretations about the gene (e.g. that there is evidence of common descent) also possibly totally wrong? What else in evolutionary biology in general might be simply mistaken? What level of tentativeness, for example, should we attach to Dawkins’ assertions that the development of the eye could take place naturally, or that common descent in general is a fact that the fossil record bears out?

If Dawkins can be so drastically wrong about his specialist subject, then what of his forays into questions about the philosophy of science, the basis of knowledge, reasons for believing in a divine being, etc.?

We’re used on such occasions to the trotting out of sermons-to-the-choir about details about Darwinism being potentially wrong, but the scheme in general being as proved-true-as-gravity. But how do you actually distinguish that pronouncement from Dawkins’ one above? I don’t see any self doubt or wiggle room in it, or in various other of Dawkins’ pronouncements – or those of the “Darwinism is like gravity” crowd in general. I’m not thinking here of the “village atheists” but of credentialled academics.

If Dawkins, a gene specialist, can be wrong about the rather important question of the function of 95% of the gene, then shouldn’t that nudge you to employ a bit more critical thinking and not just trot out party slogans? If “remarkable fact” is really a synonym for “actually, we don’t know this, and perhaps next year we’ll know it’s nonsense”, then just why should teachers and educators pay so much attention to the Darwin lobby’s confident statements? Why should students, for example, only be taught the explanatory strengths of Darwinism and not its weaknesses? “There are none” is a “la-la-la-la-I-can’t-hear-you” response which new discoveries keep belying, and does not belong in the world of responsible study.

These are questions to do with critical thinking. Do you think Dawkins is a critical thinker? Have you seen him addressing any of them in a serious way? Or is it just party propaganda?

Comments
Mung, thanks for the links!Kantian Naturalist
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
08:10 PM
8
08
10
PM
PDT
Two points have been brought up: (1) whether or not a theistic metaphysics is an a priori presupposition for empirical knowledge. (2) whether self-organization reduces to (i) law; (ii) chance; (iii) both law and chance. On (1), I don't think that empirical knowledge requires any metaphysical presupposition, whether theistic or naturalistic -- though I agree that metaphysics is, in a suitably broad sense, "a priori". As I see it, the difference between science and metaphysics is that science is about what is and what metaphysics is about what 'what is' is. So while we need metaphysics in order to do science, and vice-verse, the relation between them is not the relation between 'foundation' and 'superstructure'. It's more like the relation between literature and literary criticism (but not quite that, either). In any event, I certainly don't find Plantinga's evolutionary argument against naturalism (EAAN) convincing -- we can get into that at some point if you'd like. On (2), whether self-organization collapses into law, chance, or their conjoint depends on whether we accept, prior to that, the Platonic doctrine that chance, necessity, and design are the only truly basic categories we have. Once one accept that, then sure, it'll turn out that self-organization, not being design, has to be one or both of the others. And then it'll be fairly straightforward to convict self-organization theory of the same problems that afflict ultra-Darwinism. But I don't see why that Platonic doctrine is obviously true. I think that an argument has to be made for it, and I'm not even sure Plato himself does a good job of arguing for it. Put otherwise: the ultra-Darwinist/Epicurean thinks we have two basic categories: (i) chance and (ii) necessity. The design theorist thinks we have three basic categories: (i) chance; (ii) necessity; (iii) design. The theorist of self-organizing systems also thinks we need three basic categories, and agrees with the design theorist that the two basic categories of ultra-Darwinism are insufficient. It's just that she thinks the three basic categories are (i) chance; (ii) necessity; (iii) self-organization.* * The philosopher C.S. Peirce called the third one "Love," and classified metaphysical systems in terms of which one of the three categories they emphasized -- hence, in his terms, "tychism," "anakhism," and "agapism". I don't completely agree, but I am terribly fond of Peirce!Kantian Naturalist
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
08:10 PM
8
08
10
PM
PDT
KN: Thanks for the thoughts. I think it is useful to look at it from very basic first principles. A natural law describes the result that will attain given an initial set of conditions (assuming adequately described, no interceding events, and so on). Put simply, by law we are talking about something that must occur. There is only one other possibility: that the thing in question did not have to occur. Thus, "had to occur" and "didn't have to occur" cover the entire range of possibilities. There is no other possibility; we have comprehensively described all events that could, even in theory, occur. Now, we can have a very interesting discussion about the second category, what we mean by chance, whether there is anything that can really be termed chance, for example. But the fact remains that everything falls into these two categories -- yes, even design, which is the second main subset of the category "didn't have to occur" (chance being the other subset). Self-organization can only rely on natural law or some combination of natural law and "didn't have to occur." Self-organization rejects design, so it is left to get its explanatory power from some combination of natural law and chance. This isn't a question of people letting self-organization have its fair day in court. It is just a simple fact that there are only certain possibilities that can logically exist. Thus, when we peel away the fancy language we see that self-organization is really seeking to discover some kind of law/chance process that can produce the effect in question (in our context, complex functional specified information). Self-organization is, in substance, nothing more than a semi-sophisticated way of looking at what can result from chance processes in the presence of known laws. It is interesting. There are some features of nature that might perhaps be described by it (although skeptics would question whether the concept brings anything new to the table even in those cases). Unfortunately, however, at the end of the day self-organization tells us precisely nothing beyond what a general discussion of necessity and chance would tell us without invoking the term "self-organization."Eric Anderson
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
06:57 PM
6
06
57
PM
PDT
I suppose I should go back and read Kauffmann to see if he thinks that self-organizing systems can be described under laws, and try to figure out how good his arguments are.
Reinventing the Sacred: A New View of Science, Reason, and Religion http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kauffman06/kauffman06_index.html
... for me, the final straw was reading Terry Eagleton’s brilliant demolition of The God Delusion that appeared in the London Review of Books.)
Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God Debate Mung
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
05:56 PM
5
05
56
PM
PDT
Well Kantian, until a empirical demonstration is forthcoming demonstrating the ability of ANY process (elucidated or imagined), other than intelligence to create functional information should not your, or anyone else's musings, on the capacity of self organization to create functional information be rightly considered unsubstantiated conjectures??? Much like Darwinists you simply are not even in the realm of empirical science to hold to such a view with no evidence!,,, Moreover, the rationality you seemingly take for granted in order to 'do science' (or even philosophy) is not even possible unless Theism is held as true as a starting assumption!
Philosopher Sticks Up for God Excerpt: Theism, with its vision of an orderly universe superintended by a God who created rational-minded creatures in his own image, “is vastly more hospitable to science than naturalism,” with its random process of natural selection, he (Plantinga) writes. “Indeed, it is theism, not naturalism, that deserves to be called ‘the scientific worldview.’” http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/books/alvin-plantingas-new-book-on-god-and-science.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf The very notion of physical law is a theological one in the first place, a fact that makes many scientists squirm. Isaac Newton first got the idea of absolute, universal, perfect, immutable laws from the Christian doctrine that God created the world and ordered it in a rational way. ~ Paul Davies Why should the human mind be able to comprehend reality so deeply? - referenced article https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qGvbg_212biTtvMschSGZ_9kYSqhooRN4OUW_Pw-w0E/edit Random Chaos vs. Uniformity Of Nature - Presuppositional Apologetics - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6853139
bornagain77
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
04:28 PM
4
04
28
PM
PDT
Actually, it's a burden on self-organization theorists, like Stuart Kauffmann and Ilya Prigogine, to show that such laws exist. I'm just a dude with some knowledge of philosophy and too much time on his hands. In any event, the laws themselves wouldn't create new information -- laws of nature are just idealized descriptions of systems -- so if there are laws about self-organizing systems (and I'm not so sure that there are), they would be laws about systems that generate new information. I suppose I should go back and read Kauffmann to see if he thinks that self-organizing systems can be described under laws, and try to figure out how good his arguments are. In any event, I just wanted to put myself out there as someone who is a committed naturalist and who finds Dawkins an embarrassment. (Though not for the reasons most of you might think -- for me, the final straw was reading Terry Eagleton's brilliant demolition of The God Delusion that appeared in the London Review of Books.) On the question of "the weaknesses of evolutionary theory," I think it's important to distinguish between (a) important and interesting questions to which evolutionary theory does not provide answers and (b) answers provided by evolutionary theory which aren't right. I'd put abiogenesis and what I'd call "morphogenesis" (the origins of form) in that category, not in category (b).Kantian Naturalist
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Kantian, it seems contradictory that on one hand you say:
I think that self-organization theory has been worked out more carefully and stands a better chance of being right.
And on the other hand you say:
but I’m not fully convinced that there can’t be laws about non-deterministic, information-creating systems.
OK Kantian, how can self organization be worked out 'more carefully' and have a better chance of being right when you don't even know of any laws that can create information, but, as you stated, you are merely 'not fully convinced' that they don't exist??? The burden is on you to show that it/they (some imagined information creating law's') actually do exist! But here in the real world, this new video just came out showing how detached from reality the empirical evidence is of your 'shunned' Darwinian cohorts
Douglas Axe co-author of Science & Human Origins - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxMmLakH2LQ
bornagain77
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
Eric Anderson wrote: "Natural laws, by definition cannot be a source of the information content found in living systems (just briefly, this due to the fact that the information carrying capacity of a medium is inversely proportional to the law-driven organization of the medium); and chance just puts us back into the awful probability calculations that beset traditional evolutionary theories." I'm not a practicing self-organization theorist myself, so I find myself up against the limit of my own ignorance. But here's an off-the-cuff remark that might at least illuminate how a conversation between design theory and self-organization theory might proceed. Anderson wrote that is just true by definition that natural laws cannot be sources of new information. A better way of putting that, maybe, would be to say that natural laws can only describe fully deterministic systems, where the behavior of a system at any future time can be predicted from the initial state of the system, plus the laws which govern that system. And it's stipulated that all natural laws must be like that. But why? Why must all laws of nature be like Newton's laws? If it's not fully deterministic, then it's not a law at all? Well, maybe -- I can sort of see why this is so -- but I'm not fully convinced that there can't be laws about non-deterministic, information-creating systems. That's one point. The other is this: the major thing that design theory and self-organization theory agree on is that the Epicurean doctrine of "chance and necessity" isn't adequate. There has to be at least a third major category. So what's that category going to be? It would be 'stacking the deck' against self-organization theory to just assert that the only categories are chance, necessity, and design. I mean, sure, if that were the case, then since self-organization isn't design, it's got to be one of the other two. And yes, Dembski defines "design" as the set-theoretic complement of chance and necessity. Of course this view has a venerable history, going back at least to Plato in Timaeus and Laws, but tradition isn't an argument.Kantian Naturalist
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist: Perhaps your preferred self organization model can pass empirical muster where Darwinism has failed???
Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - Abel, Trevors Excerpt: Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC).,,, Shannon information theory measures the relative degrees of RSC and OSC. Shannon information theory cannot measure FSC. FSC is invariably associated with all forms of complex biofunction, including biochemical pathways, cycles, positive and negative feedback regulation, and homeostatic metabolism. The algorithmic programming of FSC, not merely its aperiodicity, accounts for biological organization. No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization. Organization invariably manifests FSC rather than successive random events (RSC) or low-informational self-ordering phenomena (OSC).,,, Testable hypotheses about FSC What testable empirical hypotheses can we make about FSC that might allow us to identify when FSC exists? In any of the following null hypotheses [137], demonstrating a single exception would allow falsification. We invite assistance in the falsification of any of the following null hypotheses: Null hypothesis #1 Stochastic ensembles of physical units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #2 Dynamically-ordered sequences of individual physical units (physicality patterned by natural law causation) cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #3 Statistically weighted means (e.g., increased availability of certain units in the polymerization environment) giving rise to patterned (compressible) sequences of units cannot program algorithmic/cybernetic function. Null hypothesis #4 Computationally successful configurable switches cannot be set by chance, necessity, or any combination of the two, even over large periods of time. We repeat that a single incident of nontrivial algorithmic programming success achieved without selection for fitness at the decision-node programming level would falsify any of these null hypotheses. This renders each of these hypotheses scientifically testable. We offer the prediction that none of these four hypotheses will be falsified. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/29
bornagain77
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist: Thanks for your thoughts and for being open to considering design. Self-organization is tantalizing at first glance. I think what persuades me (and probably many others on this forum) that self-organization is a dead end in terms of accounting for either the origin of life or its subsequent development and diversification is the following: Self-organization essentially posits, stated simply, that 'things come together and make something new.' Thus, we are dealing with two possibilities: things come together as a result of (i) natural laws, or (ii) a combination of natural laws and chance. Natural laws, by definition cannot be a source of the information content found in living systems (just briefly, this due to the fact that the information carrying capacity of a medium is inversely proportional to the law-driven organization of the medium); and chance just puts us back into the awful probability calculations that beset traditional evolutionary theories. Self-organization (and the related "chaos" concepts) may have something to say about the formation of stars, planets, weather systems, rings of Saturn, and so on, but they have precious little to offer us in terms of understanding the origin of life and biological systems (or any system characterized by complex function specified information).Eric Anderson
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
12:38 PM
12
12
38
PM
PDT
I've read only The Blind Watchmaker and The God Delusion. The former, I found interesting here and there but ultimately I was not persuaded that variation and selection are both necessary and sufficient causes of biological organization and diversity. So, I'm deeply sympathetic with the basic impulse which animates intelligent design. I'm not an ID supporter myself because I think that self-organization theory has been worked out more carefully and stands a better chance of being right. But self-organization theorists and design theorists can make some common cause against ultra-Darwinists. As for The God Delusion, I shall simply quote Michael Ruse: "The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist". Exactly.Kantian Naturalist
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
11:03 AM
11
11
03
AM
PDT
I'm still waiting to see anything substantive -- any one thing of substance, beyond the absolutely trivial -- that Dawkins has said that makes sense.Eric Anderson
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
10:37 AM
10
10
37
AM
PDT
he link above shows that Dawkins himself is apparently remarkably unphased by it. Dawkins is unphased because he's a psychopath. Psychopaths never admit to being wrong. You see, you just did not understand what they were saying. One of the main reasons that Darwinism has taken over "higher" education is that many of its leading proponents are psychopaths.Mapou
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
10:14 AM
10
10
14
AM
PDT
Not only that, but, this totally false statement is in an area of Dawkins’ speciality.
But three years ago everybody who was anybody knew this was true. Beside, I am sure Dawkins was relying on the real experts, so we can hardly blame him.Mung
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
09:24 AM
9
09
24
AM
PDT
For those interested, here's the full context of Dawkin's words, thanks to google books.JoeCoder
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
"It ain't what folks know that's the problem, it's what they know that ain't so."JDH
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
It appears the only place that 'unlimited plasticity' can actually be observed, a 'unlimited plasticity' that Darwin had originally envisioned for all life on earth, is within Darwin's theory itself as it forever morphs into different versions of evolutionary theory, as more evidence comes in, that look nothing like what Darwin had originally envisioned.
Devolution of Evolution Excerpt: Incredibly, even the National Science Teachers Association [NSTA] the vanguard of evolution in public education has now been forced to cautiously approach this now obvious reality - "There is considerable debate about how evolution has taken place." How can a curriculum on the mechanisms of evolution be developed for a theory in the absence of a consistent theory? http://www.darwinthenandnow.com/2011/02/devolution-of-evolution/ EMBO workshop focuses on “phenomena that are not part of the traditional narrative of molecular evolution … ” August 2012 Excerpt: It is impossible to deny that our ideas on evolution are shifting from the simple and rigid ‘random mutation–selective fixation’ scheme epitomized in the Modern Synthesis, to a much more complex, nuanced picture. Under the new view, the interplay between stochasticity and adaptive mechanisms is extensive and essential, both in the generation of variation and in the fixation of the changes. https://uncommondescent.com/evolutionary-biology/embo-workshop-focuses-on-phenomena-that-are-not-part-of-the-traditional-narrative-of-molecular-evolution/
Incredibly many Darwinists like to claim this 'morphing' of their basic theory to accommodate whatever evidence may come along is the sign of a healthy scientific theory (I've even heard the term 'robust'), but the fact of the matter. much contrary to what committed Darwinists would prefer to believe, is that such morphing of a theory is the most sure sign that you are in fact dealing with a pseudo-science:
Science and Pseudoscience (transcript) - "In degenerating programmes, however, theories are fabricated only in order to accommodate known facts" - Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, , quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture http://www2.lse.ac.uk/philosophy/about/lakatos/scienceandpseudosciencetranscript.aspx notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LpGd3smTV1RwmEXC25IAEKMjiypBl5VJq9ssfv4JgeM/edit
bornagain77
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
05:37 AM
5
05
37
AM
PDT
I have loved this post This is exactly what we have to deal with when facing darwinism, just so stories... in the name of science This is a shame for people like Dawkins of course, but also for all the scientific community that support those guysfelipe
September 29, 2012
September
09
Sep
29
29
2012
03:56 AM
3
03
56
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply