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But didn’t everyone know this about dogs?

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From Evolution News & Views:

Excerpt: In his latest book, geneticist Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig of the Max Planck Institutes in Germany takes on the widespread view that dog breeds prove macroevolution. … He shows in great detail that the incredible variety of dog breeds, going back in origin several thousand years ago but especially to the last few centuries, represents no increase in information but rather a decrease or loss of function on the genetic and anatomical levels.

But of course this would be true because we breed dogs for functions that come at the expense of other ones. Functions that help us more than the dog—except insofar as we look after him. But that isn’t natural selection.

Michael Behe writes:

“Dr. Lönnig shows forcefully that one of the chief examples Darwinists rely on to convince the public of macroevolution — the enormous variation in dogs — actually shows the opposite. Extremes in size and anatomy come at the cost of broken genes and poor health. Even several gene duplications were found to interfere strongly with normal growth and development as is also often the case in humans. So where is the evidence for Darwinian evolution now?
The science here is indeed solid. Intriguingly, Lönnig’s prediction from 2013 on starch digestion in wolves has already been confirmed in a study published this year. … ”

Solid science actually won’t make much difference compared to the Darwinian narrative. For that, see Why the narrative trumps facts. Narrative decides which facts are allowed to matter. Facts about dog breeds are not important when citing them as an example with lots of great photo ops helps market Darwinism to the public.

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Comments
Silver Asiatic
Science teachers are not part of the scientific community? That sounds strange to me.
Science teachers at the elementary and high school levels are not. The scientific community consists of those who actively engage in science as their full time occupation, not teach basics to children an hour a week.
I believe science teachers are trained and credentialed by scientifically-trained college professors..
That is incorrect. In the U.S. most if not all public school districts don't require their science teachers to have an actual science degree. Teaching degrees yes, formal scientific training no. Some do but most don't.
So, we have science teachers who are a threat to the scientific community — and yet were actually produced by the very same scientific community who disowns them once they become credentialed as teachers?
False as I have explained above.The real problem is that even some teachers with scientific training are still faithful to their YEC beliefs and will deliberately avoid the prescribed curricula and push their YEC nonsense. There have been a number of court cases over this too.Thorton
October 31, 2014
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Then they came for me—
And now they are gone with a whimper.Joe
October 31, 2014
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They will always have the opportunity to show that evolutionism is strictly a scientific endeavor and not a religious and political agenda but I doubt that they will ever succeed in that. But hey, they can't even find that elusive theory of evolution.Joe
October 31, 2014
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But ID isn’t about religion or politics, no siree.
I'd expect you to argue against ID's religion and politics then. But I haven't seen much at all about that.Silver Asiatic
October 31, 2014
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KF, Here : "A: Kindly, pause to read what I just commented to you concerning motive mongering, before going further. Pardon, your agenda is showing. KF" KF, Other thread: "That said, there is a great cultural battle underway, and key institutions such as science and science education are being taken hostage to longstanding agendas like this: ....." SNIP "...Eventually, the ideological subversion of science, education and much more will fail, but Burke has aptly reminded us all that all that is required for evil to triumph is for the fundamentally decent to stand by and do nothing. Here, is the warning Martin Niemoller left us all, in a blood-bought lesson of history that sixty million ghosts beg to remind us of: First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me KF"Rich
October 31, 2014
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Thorton #98
SA: Is there evidence of intelligent design in nature? TH: Sure. Humans are part of nature and design things all the time. Birds’ nests, spider webs, beaver dams all require some intelligence and planning. There just isn’t any evidence that life itself was intelligently designed.
Ok, you agree that there is evidence of intelligent design in nature. There are many questions that are important at this point, but we can start with just a few ... 1. How did you scientifically distinguish design from non-design? 2. What scientific measurements did you use to determine that some things were designed by intelligence? 3. Design requires planning (for the future). What is the evolutionary origin for future-state planning? 4. What are the key characteristics of designed things and why do you think those characteristics are not found in the origin of life? 5. In what way are animal and human designs comparable to things that appear to be designed in nature?Silver Asiatic
October 31, 2014
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"There just isn’t any evidence that life itself was intelligently designed." - Thorton and yet,,, Biology meets geometry: Describing geometry of common cellular structure - Oct. 30, 2014 Excerpt: Architecture imitates life, at least when it comes to those spiral ramps in multistory parking garages. Stacked and connecting parallel levels, the ramps are replications of helical structures found in a ubiquitous membrane structure in the cells of the body. Dubbed Terasaki ramps after their discoverer, they reside in an organelle called the endoplasmic reticulum (ER), a network of membranes found throughout the cell and connected to and surrounding the cell nucleus.,,, ER consists of a number of more or less regular stacks of evenly spaced connected sheets, a structure that reflects its function as the shop floor of protein synthesis within a cell.,,, Last year,, it was discovered that these connections are formed by spiral ramps running up through the stack of sheets. ,, this came as a surprise because spiral geometries had never previously been observed in biological membranes.,, Attached to the membrane, ribosomes, which serve as the primary site for protein synthesis, dot the ER like cars populating a densely packed parking structure. "The ribosomes have to be a certain distance apart because otherwise they can't synthesize proteins," Huber explained. "So how do you get as many ribosomes per unit volume as possible but not have them bump up against each other?" Huber asked. "The cell seems to have solved that problem by folding surfaces into layers that are nearly parallel to each other and allow a high density of ribosomes.",, ,,,the parallel surfaces or stacks are connected by Terasaki spiral ramps. In some cases, one ramp is left-handed and the other right-handed—the parking-garage geometry—which is what Terasaki and colleagues (including Huber) found last year. "We propose that the essential building blocks within the stack are not individual spiral ramps but a 'parking garage' organized around two gently pitched ramps, one of which is the mirror image of the other—a dipole," said Guven, who was assisted in his research by one of his students, Dulce María Valencia. "This architecture minimizes energy and is consistent with the laminar structure of the stacks but is also stable.",,, http://phys.org/news/2014-10-biology-geometry.html Romans 1 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.bornagain77
October 31, 2014
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Astroman:
Joe, do you believe that the ID mechanism is the existence, knowledge, and purposeful creative power of the God of the Bible?
It is a possibility but personally I hope not- or I hope that the God of the Bible is depicted incorrectly.Joe
October 31, 2014
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thorton:
There just isn’t any evidence that life itself was intelligently designed. There isn't any evidence that blind and undirected processes can produce life so perhaps we don't exist. But I digress as thorton doesn't know what evidence is nor how to assess it.
Joe
October 31, 2014
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Thorton #97
Most elementary and high school teachers (where the problems lie) have very little actual science training. Many have none. They aren’t part of the professional scientific community.
Science teachers are not part of the scientific community? That sounds strange to me.
Notice that the “Academic Freedom” bills are all aimed at the lower education levels and impressionable children and never at colleges? That’s because college professors are scientifically trained and won’t put up with the bullshit.
I believe science teachers are trained and credentialed by scientifically-trained college professors. So, we have science teachers who are a threat to the scientific community -- and yet were actually produced by the very same scientific community who disowns them once they become credentialed as teachers? It doesn't make sense. It seems the finger-pointing just circles back to the scientific community. Science teachers are not convinced by evolutionary claims, in the very topics they've been trained to teach in. This is a problem internal to the scientific community and it shows a profound lack of credibility when the teachers themselves are considered a threat to science.Silver Asiatic
October 31, 2014
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Tamara Knight:
Joe, from the comments in posts above it seems you have been critisizing Evolution for many years, and despite that you have still failed to grasp its essence at even the most simple level.
LoL! I bet I grasp it better than you ever will.
You seem to think “fitter” means that it is closer to an idealised “perfection”.
Nope. That thought never crossed my mind.
And its purpose is to survive long enough to produce offspring capable of reproducing. Nothing else matters.
Yes, I know.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Not in a place that doesn't have any lightJoe
October 31, 2014
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'The term “liars for Jesus” wasn’t coined for nothing.' Dawkins will have your guts for garters, seeking to disparage, indeed, to make nothing of, 'nothing', Thortless.Axel
October 31, 2014
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kairosfocus, your response is what I expected but is not the honesty I hoped for. I followed your links and I have previously seen those pages and more. Frankly, your voluminous writings are thoroughly convincing evidence that design thought is indeed Creationism in a cheap tuxedo. I am also not impressed by your appeal to your credentials or by your ancestry and pompous huffing and puffing. Among other things you said: "I find the casual assumption or insinuation of lying, dissimulation or hypocrisy on the part of design thinkers extremely offensive, rude, disrespectful and unwarranted; serving only an agenda of atmosphere poisoning and polarisation." I'm sure that your opponents feel the same way when you and other ID proponents constantly do those things and worse. P.S. I have Irish, Scottish, English ancestry and who knows what before that, and it doesn't matter one bit in debates about Evolutionary Theory and ID. P.P.S. I'll give you another chance to be honest: kairosfocus, do you believe that the ID mechanism is the existence, knowledge, and purposeful creative power of the God of the Bible?Astroman
October 31, 2014
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jerry
This is not the official ID site. For that go to the Discovery Organization.
Ah, the Discovery Institute. That's the right wing Christian think tank whose primary goal is clearly stated in their "Wedge Document".
The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document, which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to defeat materialism, naturalism, evolution, and "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions." The strategy also aims to affirm what it calls "God's reality." Its goal is to change American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values. The wedge metaphor is attributed to Phillip E. Johnson and depicts a metal wedge splitting a log to represent an aggressive public relations program to create an opening for the supernatural in the public's understanding of science.
But ID isn't about religion or politics, no siree. :)Thorton
October 31, 2014
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@Astroman #103 'Based on what I’ve seen from ID proponents I’d have to agree. They will always have the opportunity to show that ID is strictly a scientific endeavor and not a religious and political agenda but I doubt that they will ever succeed in that.' When will they learn, Astroman? When will they ever learn, as the song goes? There's only one thing for it; tried and trusted, moreover. The 'wheelers and dealers' in the academic Establishment will have to just keep taking a baseball-bat to them. 'You don't follow our line, we're gonna hit you outa da park! We doan need no steenkin' "God's foot in da door." Capisce?'Axel
October 31, 2014
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Thorton, since Darwinism cannot be falsified by experimental observation yet ID can, then Darwinism is not a proper science, and ID is! Darwinism is a Pseudo-Science: 1. No Rigid Mathematical Basis 2. No Demonstrated Empirical Basis 3. Random Mutation and Natural Selection Are Both Grossly Inadequate as ‘creative engines’ 4. Information is not reducible to a material basis “Being an evolutionist means there is no bad news. If new species appear abruptly in the fossil record, that just means evolution operates in spurts. If species then persist for eons with little modification, that just means evolution takes long breaks. If clever mechanisms are discovered in biology, that just means evolution is smarter than we imagined. If strikingly similar designs are found in distant species, that just means evolution repeats itself. If significant differences are found in allied species, that just means evolution sometimes introduces new designs rapidly. If no likely mechanism can be found for the large-scale change evolution requires, that just means evolution is mysterious. If adaptation responds to environmental signals, that just means evolution has more foresight than was thought. If major predictions of evolution are found to be false, that just means evolution is more complex than we thought.” ~ Cornelius Hunter https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaPcK-KCppBztIJmXUBXTvZTZ5lHV4Qg_pnzmvVL2Qw/edit The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 Excerpt of conclusion pg. 42: "To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662469/ Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997 More Irreducible Complexity Is Found in Flagellar Assembly - September 24, 2013 Concluding Statement: Eleven years is a lot of time to refute the claims about flagellar assembly made in Unlocking the Mystery of Life, if they were vulnerable to falsification. Instead, higher resolution studies confirm them. Not only that, research into the precision assembly of flagella is provoking more investigation of the assembly of other molecular machines. It's a measure of the robustness of a scientific theory when increasing data strengthen its tenets over time and motivate further research. Irreducible complexity lives! - http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/more_irreducibl077051.htmlbornagain77
October 31, 2014
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Mark Frank @ 73 writes in part,
I had in mind the biologist’s definition of the success of a species. This is purely and simply the species ability to reproduce in the world as it is . . . The genome is only relevant to the extent that it contributes to this. Any other definition of success leads to the odd result that a species could be highly “successful” but failing to survive.
Thank you, we'll use your definition. We would not want any odd results. Let's see if we can dodge another one. According to your definition, evolutionary success has only to do with the genome (of the organism in question) so far as it informs the ability to reproduce in the world as it is. Is that about right? In the case of domesticated dogs, I am informed that there is a loss of genetic information, that success results in dog breeds in response to specific environmental ends (e.g. we like dogs that chase sheep without eating them, so we feed them kibble and help them reproduce.) Is that about right? I have heard from that guy, Behe, that such is generally the case for malaria-resistance -- that the battle involves organisms "enjoying" loss of genomic info, to better get over on malaria, (oh, and in turn, strains of plasmodium falciparum doing the same). Mark Frank, please correct me if I am wrong, but don't most (all?) scientists in that field agree with this narrative? Ok, so here is my question (er, eventually). It seems to me (and that is as far as I will go right now) that an organism's response to the environment ("in the world as it is") involves dumping, if necessary, genomic information to succeed. Whether the selection is artificial or natural, the far, far, easier pathway for organisms is to lose genomic information. In fact, this is the dominant, almost universal, response according to scientific studies. . . I guess you can see where I am going with this. How could this possibly square with the claim that evolution (along with its numerical "success") is the driver of increased information in the genome, not only in a given organism, but for all organisms over the entire history of life on earth?Tim
October 31, 2014
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jerry
So deal with the science if you can.
As soon as ID can present some actual science to make its positive case and not just "ToE can't explain this!!", we will.Thorton
October 31, 2014
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as to: “There just isn’t any evidence that life itself was intelligently designed.” - Thorton and yet,,, DNA: The Ultimate Hard Drive - Science Magazine, August-16-2012 Excerpt: "When it comes to storing information, hard drives don't hold a candle to DNA. Our genetic code packs billions of gigabytes into a single gram. A mere milligram of the molecule could encode the complete text of every book in the Library of Congress and have plenty of room to spare." http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/08/written-in-dna-code.html Information Storage in DNA by Wyss Institute - video https://vimeo.com/47615970 Quote from preceding video: "The theoretical (information) density of DNA is you could store the total world information, which is 1.8 zetabytes, at least in 2011, in about 4 grams of DNA." Sriram Kosuri PhD. - Wyss Institute Storing information in DNA - Test-tube data - Jan 26th 2013 Excerpt: Dr Goldman’s new scheme is significant in several ways. He and his team have managed to set a record (739.3 kilobytes) for the amount of unique information encoded. But it has been designed to do far more than that. It should, think the researchers, be easily capable of swallowing the roughly 3 zettabytes (a zettabyte is one billion trillion or 10²¹ bytes) of digital data thought presently to exist in the world and still have room for plenty more. http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21570671-archives-could-last-thousands-years-when-stored-dna-instead-magneticbornagain77
October 31, 2014
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Both sides know it.” Based on what I’ve seen from ID proponents I’d have to agree. They will always have the opportunity to show that ID is strictly a scientific endeavor and not a religious and political agenda but I doubt that they will ever succeed in that.
Mostly a nonsense comment with some elements of truth. I believe creationism as it is espoused by the YEC's is junk science and so do many others here who support ID. So deal with the science if you can. My experience is that people like you who make these types of comments cannot deal with the science while many of the pro ID people can. The idea that ID is religious or political is just an outflow of many looking for the truth just as the advocacy of Darwinian ideas leads to the same thing amongst their followers. If you were honest about this then you would admit this. This is not the official ID site. For that go to the Discovery Organization.jerry
October 31, 2014
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KF, This is not your thread but on those that you control the following comment from yesterday by me may be of some use for you and other authors here. It will have the effect of actually focusing on the discussion at hand or else it gets moved to name calling thread. ---------- May I suggest a strategy with dealing with all the irrelevant comments to a thread which quickly descend into either name calling or unrelated ideas. Create a parallel thread where everyone can call each other names or discuss OT ideas. Allow their comments to exist but in another place. That way there might be an intelligent discussion and not mindless or immaterial or at best peripheral comments. This would be a good place to start. That way even the anti-ID people might be forced to make responsive statements instead of just negative criticism in its various forms. It would allow people to follow discussions as opposed to have to wade through gibberish.jerry
October 31, 2014
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TH: You are now patently speaking in disregard to quite evident truth manifest in this thread where questions asked have been seriously and sincerely answered and explanations given with contexts where much more can be had, in the hope and intent that what you say or suggest is taken as true. That is sad, but it does explain a lot of what you have done, how. KFkairosfocus
October 31, 2014
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A: Kindly, pause to read what I just commented to you concerning motive mongering, before going further. Pardon, your agenda is showing. KFkairosfocus
October 31, 2014
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Thorton, I beg to remind you and others on tone and language, based on what just caught my eye, now in at least a second thread within 24 hours. This is not a bar-room, or a Youtube comment box. Freedom to express a view does not involve freedom to be vulgar or do the equivalent of allowing your dog to drag garbage unto your neighbour's lawn. You sir, are the equivalent of a guest on someone else's property and nickel; kindly act like it. Others who need the reminder, should take notice too. And, without giving details just now, your assumptions and insinuations also call for serious correction, though I don't have time just now. All I will say for now is that there is significant evidence of sobering erosion of freedom of thought, conscience and expression in especially the USA, strongly driven by secularist activists and targetting especially Christians. The pattern is sufficiently serious to warrant correction before it becomes too late; history counsels, freedom can be lost by those who do not understand it, its foundations and the price in blood paid for it. KFkairosfocus
October 31, 2014
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Thorton: "ID’s purpose isn’t to answer questions or provide explanations. ID’s purpose is to sow doubt about actual science among the lay public to make it easier to get Creationist pseudoscience sneaked back into public schools. Both sides know it." Based on what I've seen from ID proponents I'd have to agree. They will always have the opportunity to show that ID is strictly a scientific endeavor and not a religious and political agenda but I doubt that they will ever succeed in that.Astroman
October 31, 2014
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A: utterly irrelevant, my discussion is philosophical -- epistemological and inductive logic -- and scientific, not theological. And that is an honest answer, I think you need to look again at what you are projecting and accusing or insinuating. I assume, because you have been primed with the implication or assumption that design thought is creationism in a cheap tuxedo. And BTW, UD is not a theology blog, though theological ideas do come up. Until the worldview level and core warrant issues are addressed all teh wayback to assenting to first principles of right reason these days, attempting a theological discussion would be futile and of no positive effect. KF PS: If you genuinely want to see what my worldview happens to look like, on what basis, at 101 level try here on in context. FYI, if the evidence warranted a world origins model in which chance and necessity were adequate for life to form and develop in a branching tree pattern and were backed by empirical observations of capability of chance and necessity to form entities manifesting significant FSCO/I to adequate warrant -- as in there are ZERO observed cases of FSCO/I credibly arising by design, but literally trillions of it arising by design in our direct cross-check observation -- I would have worldview and theological options well within the Christian scheme to accept that. The reason I accept the validity of the design inference is not a worldview level a priori imposition before the evidence and logic are allowed to speak, it is because I find my self compelled by its logic and evidence in light of my experience with design and with scientific thinking. FYFI, I find the casual assumption or insinuation of lying, dissimulation or hypocrisy on the part of design thinkers extremely offensive, rude, disrespectful and unwarranted; serving only an agenda of atmosphere poisoning and polarisation. I would suggest to you instead that you rethink why someone who is educated in the sciences, has served as a science educator, and has a reasonable working knowledge of relevant phil, just might have reasons for both his position on science issues and on worldviews issues. Where, there is actually a simple and direct way to overturn the design inference and associated school of thought . . . . show that blind chance and mechanical necessity with reasonable likelihood, can create FSCO/I without inadvertently injecting it in the way the demo is set up (a very common problem with claimed cases). FYYFI, the too common Dawkinsian attitude that those who beg to differ with evolutionary materialism -- which BTW is irretrievably self referentially incoherent, self refuting and necessarily false -- "must" be ignorant, stupid, insane and/or wicked. I will freely admit to the usual human struggle to grow in the truth and the right, but sir I am of a family such that honour to the point of sacrifice of life is quite literally written into my name. Which, further, carries the import bide and fecht, or in Latin, roughly my old school's motto -- after a martyr -- Fortis in Fide et Opere. Try, just try, just try to understand a tiny inkling what that little slice of Scotland and Jamaica means, even in an utterly degenerate C21.kairosfocus
October 31, 2014
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corrected link; Map Of Major Metabolic Pathways In A Cell – Diagram http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AKkRRa65sIo/TlltZupczfI/AAAAAAAAE1s/nVSv_5HRpZg/s1600/pathway-1b.pngbornagain77
October 31, 2014
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as to: "There just isn’t any evidence that life itself was intelligently designed." and yet,,, Here is, according to a Darwinist, a ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathway chart: ExPASy - Biochemical Pathways - interactive schematic http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1 Map Of Major Metabolic Pathways In A Cell - Diagram http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/img/assets/4202/MetabolicPathways_6_17_04_.pdf Part of the ‘horrendous complexity’ inherent in metabolic pathways is gone over here: The 10 Step Glycolysis Pathway In ATP Production: An Overview – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kn6BVGqKd8 At the 14:00 minute mark of the following video, Chris Ashcraft, PhD – molecular biology, gives us an overview of the Citric Acid Cycle, which is, after the 10 step Glycolysis Pathway, also involved in ATP production: Evolution vs ATP Synthase – Chris Ashcraft - video - citric acid cycle at 14:00 minute mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rUV4CSs0HzI#t=746 Glycolysis and the Citric Acid Cycle: The Control of Proteins and Pathways - Cornelius Hunter - July 2011 http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/07/glycolysis-and-citric-acid-cycle.htmlbornagain77
October 31, 2014
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The phrase "In nature" is yet another one that can have multiple definitions. To me, humans are part of nature but many of the things that humans do are described by humans as artificial. It seems that no matter how many words are available, communication can still be problematic.Astroman
October 31, 2014
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Silver Asiatic
Interesting comment. Is there evidence of intelligent design in nature?
Sure. Humans are part of nature and design things all the time. Birds' nests, spider webs, beaver dams all require some intelligence and planning. There just isn't any evidence that life itself was intelligently designed.Thorton
October 31, 2014
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