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But I really DO think that Christian Darwinism is an oxymoron

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Something I wrote recently seems to have sparked quite the little discussion. (Dang! Everybody talks to Barry, nobody talks to me … 🙂 )

Briefly, I noted that a friend’s post had been removed from a Christian Darwinist site because the moderator felt that he had intimated that Theodosius Dobzhansky was not a Christian. (He was not a Christian by any reasonable standard.)

How can one tell if a person is a Christian, many wanted to know. Isn’t that just making a judgement (judge not, lest ye be …)?

Barry Arrington made the excellent point that asking the person to affirm the Creed may be setting the bar a little high.

Fair enough: When I have used the Creed that way, I aimed to sort out situations where the person darn well knows what the Creed says and how it may differ from his private convictions. And I had good reasons for asking; otherwise, I wouldn’t bother. I have neither time nor inclination for hunting down heresies. (And none of this is written with prejudice to any other religion. It’s just that salesdarwinists currently target confused Christians more than other confused folk. So, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others, please pardon us Christians as we set the record straight.)

We must say something when someone like Dobzhansky is fronted as a “Christian” to advance the Darwinist cause. I don’t object in principle to other rational criteria for assessing whether someone is a Christian, ones such as Barry offered. The main thing to see here is that a person cannot in good faith believe two doctrines that oppose each other at the most basic level.

Darwinism opposes Christianity in a much more serious way than is generally recognized: The Darwinist must – and usually does – believe that Christianity accidentally evolved amid the noise of neurons and it spread via natural selection.

Thus it was that man created God.

Now, if the Darwinist also believes that Christianity was the result of God’s admittedly spectacular self-revelations (cf the Creed**), then he believes that God created man. Which is it?

More to the point, if the Darwinist also believes that God can do all that the Creed commands* good Christians to believe, he cannot rationally go on to insist that

🙂 man is a part of nature, and Darwin proved it

🙂 God never intervenes in nature, but does it all by Darwinism

So man created God, but no, God created man. Or God created man with the capacity of accidentally evolve an idea of God as an illusion. Why? Because he couldn’t reveal himself?

So yes, I do think Christian Darwinism is an oxymoron, if the Christian Darwinist is unconfused enough to know what he is saying.

It is hardly irrelevant to this discussion that 78% of evolutionary biologists are “pure naturalists” (no God and no free will).

* You cannot become an adult Catholic, so far as I know, without assenting intellectually to the Creed.

**For those for whom the Creed may be a bit challenging, due to age, haste, extreme suffering, emergency, etc., there is also a more basic prayer, the Act of Faith :

O MY GOD, I firmly believe that Thou art one God in three divine persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; I believe that Thy divine Son became man and died for our sins, and that He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived. Amen.

. Now that is either branch of Christianity or Darwin’s neural noise.

Comments
---"Finally, the fall was not “unfortunate,” and God did not merely “anticipate” it; He caused it, because it was part of His sovereign plan of glorifying Jesus Christ in the redemption of sinners." If you think God was the cause of sin, I can only tell you that you are so far out in left field with respect to Christianity that you might as well be discussing another religion.StephenB
December 12, 2010
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The same oxymoronity applies to "random cause" as to "random process."Ilion
December 12, 2010
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Returning the favor to SB... :-) He has shown this. It's called the law of identity. The first law of rational thought. A thing is what it is. A completely random process cannot, by definition, exist. random: without definite aim, direction, rule, or method process: a natural phenomenon marked by gradual changes that lead toward a particular result So we see that "random process" is akin to saying square circle or intelligent darwinism (or darwinians, for that matter). Does this help? p.s. Definitions courtesy of Merriam-Webster online.tgpeeler
December 12, 2010
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Oops, Prof. Gumby was 17. StephenB is 19: —Bilbo: “It may be logically possible for God to create a completely random system that He foreknows will have a certain desired outcome.” "No, it isn’t. To get the desired outcome, randomness must be constrained and directed. That rules out Darwinism, which does not, cannot, aim for an intended outcome. ["Evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind"]." Sorry, Stephen, but you haven't shown why it is logically impossible that a completely random process couldn't accomplish God's will. It may very improbable that it can (and I think it is very improbable), but not logically impossible that it can.Bilbo I
December 12, 2010
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I'm afraid I must disappoint Prof. Gumby, who wrote (at 19) "This is why ID is bad theology as well as bad science." I'm afraid I disagree. I don't think Darwinism or ID is bad theology. The only question is which (or some combination of them) best explains the evidence. I personally tend to think God did a lot of "tinkering" with His creation.Bilbo I
December 12, 2010
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"I should also point out that if God is “using” natural selection, there is some question as to whether it is, in any real sense of the word, “natural.” The artful use of a process is not really a “natural” process is it?" The very term 'process' is inherently teleological. "One could even ask this question: If God is using random variation and natural selection to create biodiversity, who or what is doing the mutating and selecting? Is it God or nature? If nature is the SOLE explanation, then obviously God has been ruled out as the user of nature." Not according to Judeo-Christianity, for (according to which) "nature" does not exist independently of God's continual act of affirming its existence.Ilion
December 12, 2010
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StephenB wrote: "The possibility of death before sin does not invalidate Christian doctrine. According to William Dembski, God’s punishment for original sin may have been retroactive in much the same way that his plan of salvation was retroactive. Perhaps, in anticipation of the unfortunate event, God allowed ancient humans to experience the effects of Adam’s sin prior to the disobedient act, just as God allowed other ancient humans to experience the effects of saving grace, prior to Christ’s salvific act." There are two separate issues here. The first is imputation of Adam's sin. Imputation only happens to human beings. Did Adam's sin get retroactively imputed to proto-humans? The second issue is physical death and decay as a result of Adam's sin. Note that Christ's atonement did not retroactively do away with physical death and decay. Had retroactive physical death and decay been a result of Adam's sin, then as soon as God created, all of creation would have been subject to death and decay. The creation would not have been "very good" (Genesis 1:31), and there would have been no garden of Eden. And Genesis 3:16-19 would make no sense. Finally, the fall was not "unfortunate," and God did not merely "anticipate" it; He caused it, because it was part of His sovereign plan of glorifying Jesus Christ in the redemption of sinners. God does not merely "allow" things; He actively causes them. See "Unconditional Reprobation and Active Hardening: A Study on Romans 9:11-22."iconoclast
December 12, 2010
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---tgpeeler: "Prof FX Gumby, you say “how could God have NOT created the diversity of life using evolution by natural selection?” ---"So this means you are on board with the idea of natural selection as the principle (only, really) “force” in nature that is responsible for all of life? Did I make the proper inference? Is that what you are saying?" TG, I think what Prof. Gumby means is "[WHY] could God not create the diversity of life using evolution by natural selection. [Given his context of God's omnipotence].StephenB
December 12, 2010
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I should also point out that if God is "using" natural selection, there is some question as to whether it is, in any real sense of the word, "natural." The artful use of a process is not really a "natural" process is it? One could even ask this question: If God is using random variation and natural selection to create biodiversity, who or what is doing the mutating and selecting? Is it God or nature? If nature is the SOLE explanation, then obviously God has been ruled out as the user of nature.StephenB
December 12, 2010
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---Prof. FX Gumby: "Apologies. It seems my simile above was incorrect. You are viewing God as an old bearded computer programmer." The purpose of the word program, which is, indeed, a simile, is to distinguish between a process that produces a specific, precise outcome, as opposed to one that produces an unplanned outcome. It is a response to your claim that I insist on a "tinkerer," which indicates added activity after the program has been set in place. While I believe tinkering may well have taken place, I am, for the sake of argument, granting that it did not in order to show that the original set up still had to be programmed [directed, set up, purposeful] in order to produce an outcome that conforms to specifications. ---"Have you read the Book of Job? Yes, well I’m sure you have. The main take home message of Job is that God is very powerful. Omnipotent even. You would agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient?" By all means. That is an agreed upon capacity of the Christian God. ---"Then how could God have not created the diversity of life using evolution by natural selection?" If God was "using" natural selection, then He was directing it toward a final end, which rules out Darwinism, which holds that evolution has no final end. Either the appearance of man was a necessary outcome of the process [Christianity] or it was not a necessary outcome of the process [Darwinism]. This takes us back to the original point, directed evolution [an option for Christianity] vs. undirected evolution [a requirement for Darwinism].StephenB
December 12, 2010
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Prof FX Gumby, you say "how could God have NOT created the diversity of life using evolution by natural selection?" So this means you are on board with the idea of natural selection as the principle (only, really) "force" in nature that is responsible for all of life? Did I make the proper inference? Is that what you are saying?tgpeeler
December 12, 2010
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The issue is this: Granting macro-evolution [and macro-evolution is by no means a fact] was it programmed or not programmed. Christian Darwinists want to have it both ways by saying that it was programmed, except that it wasn’t.
Apologies. It seems my simile above was incorrect. You are viewing God as an old bearded computer programmer. Have you read the Book of Job? Yes, well I'm sure you have. The main take home message of Job is that God is very powerful. Omnipotent even. You would agree that God is omnipotent and omniscient? Then how could God have not created the diversity of life using evolution by natural selection?Prof. FX Gumby
December 12, 2010
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---iconoclast: "Can a true Christian believe in a common ancestor, a la Behe? NO. This would vitiate the essential Christian doctrine of death as a consequence of sin. Behe believes in death before sin." The possibility of death before sin does not invalidate Christian doctrine. According to William Dembski, God's punishment for original sin may have been retroactive in much the same way that his plan of salvation was retroactive. Perhaps, in anticipation of the unfortunate event, God allowed ancient humans to experience the effects of Adam's sin prior to the disobedient act, just as God allowed other ancient humans to experience the effects of saving grace, prior to Christ's salvific act.StephenB
December 11, 2010
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No answer? Well... For what its worth, I think the question is well beyond just being open - at least from an observational ID standpoint. Information had to have been inputted into nature. Whether that happened just once, or more, is a mystery to be solved.Upright BiPed
December 11, 2010
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Icon, why is it exactly a true Christian cannot believe in a common ancestor?Upright BiPed
December 11, 2010
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---Prof. FX Gumby: "StephenB at 13 and ID in general sterotypes and limits God to the role of an old bearded fellow with a set of blueprints or tinkering at limited times (it’s not clear which) with His cosmic spanner." On the contrary, I granted evolution for the sake of argument so that I would not be subject to that charge. The issue is this: Granting macro-evolution [and macro-evolution is by no means a fact] was it programmed or not programmed. Christian Darwinists want to have it both ways by saying that it was programmed, except that it wasn't. You can't justify their schizophrenia by attacking ID. That argument doesn't work.StephenB
December 11, 2010
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Can a true Christian believe in a common ancestor, a la Behe? NO. This would vitiate the essential Christian doctrine of death as a consequence of sin. Behe believes in death before sin.iconoclast
December 11, 2010
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---Bilbo: "It may be logically possible for God to create a completely random system that He foreknows will have a certain desired outcome." No, it isn't. To get the desired outcome, randomness must be constrained and directed. That rules out Darwinism, which does not, cannot, aim for an intended outcome. ["Evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind"].StephenB
December 11, 2010
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This entire thing seems really simple to me. Darwinists have been so successful over the last century in taking over the intellectually respectable world (especially the universities), and convincing people that Darwinian orthodoxy is as well established as heliocentrism and the inverse square law of gravitation, that some people are convinced that, in principle, Darwinism must be true and therefore all contradictory evidence must somehow be wrong. In addition, there is the powerful social stigma and inevitable ridicule associated with questioning chance-and-necessity Darwinism. I was in this camp until age 43. However, one of those dreadfully ignorant, knuckle-dragging, born-again Christians I knew (but a good friend whom I respected) suggested that I read Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. This book detonated me out of the water. Prior to this, I had never read anything that contradicted Darwinism because I knew in advance that any challenge had to be the product of mindless Christian fundamentalism. I must admit that simple logic had previously made me think that there might be a problem with the notion that a lizard could evolve into a bird through the gradual elongation of scales into feathers. I thought, "During this gradual process, it seems like you'd have a lizard that couldn't run very well and couldn't fly at all, so how would natural selection deal with that?" But I figured that all those brilliant Darwinian "scientists" who assured me that their theory was as well established as the inverse square law of gravitation just had to be right. But they weren't right. They were catastrophically wrong. They were mathematically wrong. They were resource-probabilistically wrong. They were empirically wrong. They were logically wrong. And they were information-theoretically wrong. I love Denyse's now famous (or infamous) comment that Christian Darwinism is a solution to a problem that no longer exists. To see why, I suggest reading Don Johnson's Programming of Life, which I just read. It is short, concise, and a masterpiece in my opinion.GilDodgen
December 11, 2010
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I agree with Bilbo (14). StephenB at 13 and ID in general sterotypes and limits God to the role of an old bearded fellow with a set of blueprints or tinkering at limited times (it's not clear which) with His cosmic spanner. This is why ID is bad theology as well as bad science.Prof. FX Gumby
December 11, 2010
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Bilbo @ 14, Noooo, this is you declining to understand what 'random' means. === SMordecai @ 15, Since "Christian" Darwinists are regularly trotted out as somehow being "proof" that Darwinism is not incompatible with Christianity (or Judaism, for that matter), it is fitting that the members (and readers) of this blog punch holes in that lie from time to time.Ilion
December 11, 2010
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I did not know this was a "Christian" site! How about "Judeo-Christian" or perhaps Judeo-Christian-deist, etc. I say all are welcome and lets just follow the evidence where ever it leads. Intelligent Design is not theology! And most theologians seem to stumble at the concept.smordecai
December 11, 2010
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StephenB (13) wrote: Evolution either knew where it is going or it didn’t; the process was either orchestrated or it wasn’t; the end result was either intended or it wasn’t. The Christian Darwinist wants to have it both ways. This is a false dilemma. It may be logically possible for God to create a completely random system that He foreknows will have a certain desired outcome. If so, then it is possible for a Christian to believe in true Darwinism.Bilbo I
December 11, 2010
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---Bilbo1: "It’s not at all clear to me that a Darwinist must believe that Christianity accidentally evolved amid the noise of neurons. If God created the universe foreknowing that eventually human beings would evolve who would have the ability to come to know God, then it wasn’t really an accident. Therefore, it doesn’t follow that man created God." What you have described is not Darwinism, which teaches that man's arrival was an accident. The Christian world view holds that, if evolution occurred, God designed the the process with apriori intent, which rules out Darwinism in principle. Christianity = apriori intent by a designer leading to a desired outcome that conforms perfectly to the designers intention. ["I knew you before you were in your mother's womb"]. Darwinism = no design, no intent, and a surprise outcome. ["Evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind."] Evolution either knew where it is going or it didn’t; the process was either orchestrated or it wasn’t; the end result was either intended or it wasn’t. The Christian Darwinist wants to have it both ways.StephenB
December 11, 2010
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tgp: "SB, I took your name “in vain” the other night at a talk I gave on naturalism." TG @7, Thanks for getting me in the game.StephenB
December 11, 2010
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Denyse, You wrote: Darwinism opposes Christianity in a much more serious way than is generally recognized: The Darwinist must – and usually does – believe that Christianity accidentally evolved amid the noise of neurons and it spread via natural selection. Thus it was that man created God. It's not at all clear to me that a Darwinist must believe that Christianity accidentally evolved amid the noise of neurons. If God created the universe foreknowing that eventually human beings would evolve who would have the ability to come to know God, then it wasn't really an accident. Therefore, it doesn't follow that man created God.Bilbo I
December 11, 2010
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TGPeeler: "... I attributed to you the pithy and 100% accurate: “Reason’s rules inform evidence, evidence doesn’t inform reason’s rules.” I think if more people really understood that there would be a lot less ignorance in the world." There are too many people who refuse to understand that: it's willful ignorance against which we battle.Ilion
December 11, 2010
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RkBall: "... So, he’s comfy with the darwinist who insists on random evolution, but does not equate randomness with directionlessness." Which reveals either shocking ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. For, definitionally what has direction in the sense you are using the word is not randon.Ilion
December 11, 2010
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When a person values "niceness" or "civility" over truth, it is inevitable that must compromise truth to preserve the illusion of "niceness" or "civility."Ilion
December 11, 2010
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SB, I took your name "in vain" the other night at a talk I gave on naturalism. I attributed to you the pithy and 100% accurate: "Reason's rules inform evidence, evidence doesn't inform reason's rules." I think if more people really understood that there would be a lot less ignorance in the world. :-)tgpeeler
December 11, 2010
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