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Creationists invent time travel

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Okay, okay, it should have read: “Supposed creationist inventions” would require time travel

Further to: A classic in citation bluffing (defending dying orthodoxy), a friend kindly writes to say that citation bluffer Gary Hurd also falsely claimed in 2005 that the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution is a creationist invention. In reality, the distinction was made in the 1930s by Neo-Darwinist Theodosius Dobzhansky and has been widely used by Darwinists ever since.

See, for example,

When engaging in debates, every once in a while I hear the claim that Darwin-critics also invented terms like “microevolution” or “macroevolution.” For example, Jonathan Wells reports, “In 2005, Darwinist Gary Hurd claimed that the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution was just a creationist fabrication. … Hurd wrote to the Kansas State Board of Education: “…’macro’ and ‘micro’ evolution … have no meaning outside of creationist polemics.” (Jonathan Wells, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design, pgs. 55-56). This is also a Darwinian urban legend, for such terms have been used regularly in the scientific literature. Indeed, textbooks commonly teach this terminology, including two of the textbooks I used in college when learning about evolutionary biology.

The glossary of my college introductory biology text, Campbell’s Biology (4th Ed.) states: “macroevolution: Evolutionary change on a grand scale, encompassing the origin of novel designs, evolutionary trends, adaptive radiation, and mass extinction.” Futuyma’s Evolutionary Biology, a text I used for an upper-division evolutionary biology course, states, “In Chapters 2h3 through 25, we will analyze the principles of MACROEVOLUTION, that is, the origin and diversification of higher taxa.” (pg. 447, emphasis in original). Similarly, these textbooks respectively define “microevolution” as “a change in the gene pool of a population over a succession of generations” and “slight, short-term evolutionary changes within species.” Clearly Darwin-skeptics did not invent these terms.

Other scientific texts use the terms. In his 1989 McGraw Hill textbook, Macroevolutionary Dynamics, Niles Eldredge admits that “[m]ost families, orders, classes, and phyla appear rather suddenly in the fossil record, often without anatomically intermediate forms smoothly interlinking evolutionarily derived descendant taxa with their presumed ancestors.” (pg. 22) Similarly, Steven M. Stanley titles one of his books, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process (The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998 version), where he notes that, “[t]he known fossil record fails to document a single example of phyletic evolution accomplishing a major morphological transition and hence offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid.” (pg. 39) More.

So creationists invented time travel and just went back and changed all that?

Unfortunately, the bad news is, today, evidence-based objections attract suspicion. Achievement means representing persuasively what the cool people believe—even if those very same cool people are about to be indicted for perjury. (That would just show how uncool the justice system is, but maybe it will be fixed later.)

For who bluffer Hurd is, go here.

He is just the neutral source you had hoped to hear from, right?

We’ll be hearing plenty more in the same vein from Darwin’s spokesfolks, be sure of it. Darwinism trumps accuracy.

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Zachriel, scientists are frequently wrong. They just try their best to sweep their ugly failures under the rug. For example, the entire artificial intelligence community, starting with Alan Turing in the 50s, were wrong about intelligence being just symbol manipulation. Did you hear a single mea culpa from that sorry bunch? Nope. But guess what? They're at it again. Now the dominant paradigm in the AI community is that the brain is Bayesian. Not even wrong.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Mapou, I think you've confused "argument from authority" with "experimental evidence", which is pretty hard to do... so... well done, I guess? Go read about the Luria Delbrück experiment form whatever source you like, if you think the results are fraudulent you should prove it, as you might win your own Nobel (L&D fot theirs in part for this result). Until then, maybe you should stop accusing others of dishonesty for simply pointing out the evidence against your position.wd400
December 3, 2014
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Mapou: By the way wd400, I refuse to click any of your links. I don’t trust you people. See Delbrück & Luria, Mutations of Bacteria from virus sensitivity to virus resistance, Genetics 1943. Mapou: Arguments from authority, I just throw them in the trash. Those "scientists" with all their "science" and "stuff".Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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You guys are just weavers of lies and deception. Adaptive mechanisms are active during the lifetime of the organism in response to environmental cues and the mutations are passed on to any offsprings. These mutations are not selected via natural selection but but via epigenetics. Heck, some trees are so good at this adaptation game that the genetic makeup is different at the top of the tree than at the bottom. We, humans, depending on where we grow up, change some of our own genes to adapt to the climate. European or North American migrants from warm countries genetically adapt to cold climates within a lifetime. Most can't believe how hot it is in their home countries when they return many years later. Natural selection has nothing to do with it. It's called epigenetics. As far as bacteria are concerned, it's obvious a different adaptive mechanism is used because of the their relative simplicity and the sheer number of them and how fast they reproduce. But it's a sure bet that only a small percentage of a bacterium's genes experience the vast majority of the mutations. Mutations in the other genes are repaired. Otherwise, they would not survive at all. By the way wd400, I refuse to click any of your links. I don't trust you people. Arguments from authority, I just throw them in the trash.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Read this link. Do bacteria have a speical part of their brain that forsee they will soon be part of a scientific experiment? Or, is if just possible that you have no clue what you are talking about? It's possibly to make a graceful retreat, but I somehow can't see one coming...wd400
December 3, 2014
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Mapou (at 23): Again a perfect opportunity for the ID crowd to test their theories: Look at mutation and repair rates and see if harmful lesions are repaired more readily than harmless ones. I can promise you that this finding would essentially yield either an unlimited career in academia or a pharma start up with at least a billion dollar funding. Just imagine the medical potential: All you need to do is to boost or tweak this process a bit and you have a cancer preventative drug that you could sell to every person on the planet as long as they live! But alas, such brilliant ideas will languish on blogs like these and then disappear into the internet nirvana.hrun0815
December 3, 2014
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wd400:
And where does cancer come from? Or diseases from germline mutations? In fact, where did the millions of variable nucleotides in human populations come from? Where they all adaptive mutations once? Hell, we are each born without about 50 new mutations, are they all adaptive?
So what? All of the mutations allowed by the gene repair mechanism are harmless by design: the designers wanted variability to satisfy either their sense of beauty and/or to enable adaptation. The fact that mutations in some genes are known to cause diseases does not take away from this. Like I said, the gene repair mechanism is not perfect. Sometimes, biochemical injuries from infections, radiation or toxic substances are too much for it to handle. I repeat. There is no way any organism could survive if the system did not allow mutations in genes that are specifically designed for adaptation, while preventing mutations in other genes. And there is every reason to suppose that the adaptive mutations are not random at all. They are likely controlled by a special part of the brain that is specifically designed to handle adaptation in response to certain environmental stimuli.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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How much do you want to bet that only a small percentage (less that 1%, IMO) of an individual’s genes (specifically the ones associated with adaptation) are allowed to mutate? And where does cancer come from? Or diseases from germline mutations? In fact, where did the millions of variable nucleotides in human populations come from? Where they all adaptive mutations once? Hell, we are each born without about 50 new mutations, are they all adaptive? It would be stupid for the gene repair mechanism to prevent adaptive mutations, would it not? If if could know which were adaptive, sure. How does the gene repair mechanism know which mutations to allow and which to repair? It was designed that way, of course. OK, test this theory. Or read about the test of this theory from the 1940s which you've been given a link to, but seem motivited to ignore..wd400
December 3, 2014
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wd400:
Why do you think the fact some would-be mutations are caught means mutations are non-random? Organisms certainly go out fo their way to prevent mutation, but those that make it are, in your own words, “mistakes” and random with respect to their fitness.
How much you want to bet that this is not the way it works at all? You people pulled this lie out of your asteroid orifices and you know it. How much do you want to bet that only a small percentage (less that 1%, IMO) of an individual's genes (specifically the ones associated with adaptation) are allowed to mutate? It would be stupid for the gene repair mechanism to prevent adaptive mutations, would it not? How does the gene repair mechanism know which mutations to allow and which to repair? It was designed that way, of course. There is no way for blind evolution to know in advance which mutations should be allowed. This is why I say that the whole Darwinian evolution thing has been a monumental lie, a gigantic fraud perpetrated on the public.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Why do you think the fact some would-be mutations are caught means mutations are non-random? Organisms certainly go out fo their way to prevent mutation, but those that make it are, in your own words, "mistakes" and random with respect to their fitness. Have you read about the LD experiment? Are bacteria not only able to magically determine which mutations to generate in the face of an environmental challenge, but also capable of presaging a future environmental challenge?wd400
December 3, 2014
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How can anybody claim that mutations are random if over 99% of all mutations are automatically repaired by the gene repair mechanism and only a very small window of mutations are allowed? This is bordering on the criminal.Mapou
December 3, 2014
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Sirius@17 (O)riginal (P)ost [Edit: It is the original article that started the thread]Edward
December 3, 2014
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Acronym watch: Can someone please tell me what OP means? Eigenstate #1 should try to write more clearly. His second sentence, beginning "Rather the concept . . . " is a mess. Perhaps he would like to rewrite it? As to the idea under discussion: My father was tall, but I am taller. Does that illustrate micro-evolution? If not why not? How many generations have to elapse before micro-evolution is applicable. My impression is that micro-evolution is something we see every day but macro-evolution is something we never see. Right? The truth of macro-evolution rests on the assumption that common descent has been demonstrated.Sirius
December 3, 2014
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Mapaou, You really should read about the Luria-Delbruck experiment.. [EDIT: whoops, Zach had that one covered too] Andre, As zach says, random with respect to fitness. Mutation rates are non random across time,and between lineages, but evolutionary biology has never claimed otherwise.wd400
December 3, 2014
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Mapou #6
Darwinists have claimed and continue to claim that the mutations are random. This is a lie. Adaptive mutations are obviously not random since they can result in profound changes that can happen within a single generation. Heck, beneficial mutations happen during an organism’s lifetime. Even exercise changes the expression of certain genes in the body. These mutations are controlled and selected epigenetically, not via any kind of Darwinian process.
I am just amazed at these statements. I am going to jot these down somewhere. Wow. But wait, there's more: #11
Any biologist who claims that adaptive mutations are random is a liar or a moron, IMO. He or she should be stripped of his/her credentials and his/her alma matter publicly discredited.
I may have to archive this whole thread.Jerad
December 3, 2014
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eigenstate @9,
Dobzhansky’s use of “micro” and “macro” do not have the same referent as modern creationists use of “micro” and “macro”.
Sure it does - as I quoted from the OP:
MACROEVOLUTION, that is, the origin and diversification of higher taxa.”…“microevolution” as “a change in the gene pool of a population over a succession of generations” and “slight, short-term evolutionary changes within species.”
Which group, do you propose, would disagree with those definitions? You are the one trying to make a distinction without a difference - while both evolutionists and creationists have long used the same terms to mean the same things, their point of disagreement is whether Evolution is capable of producing macro from micro. Denyse's point remains perfectly valid, and she clearly supports her point by direct quote from Hurd and Wells. YOU are trying to spin the clear meaning of Hurd's quote into an interpretation that fits the facts post hoc (a common evolutionist tactic). You are certainly free to object to Well's claim. You can even throw out "Hurd didn't really mean what he said". But Denyse is not wrong, and based on the clearest and most direct interpretation of what Hurd actually said, neither is Wells. As for your "well, what I think evolutionists actually meant was that the creationist argument that you cannot generate macro-evolutionary change from micro-evolutionary change is a new argument and we don't agree" - not only is such a statement self-evident, it doesn't even make sense as an interpretation of what Hurd is saying, in context. How is creationist disagreement that you can get from point a to point b via baby steps qualify as a "micro and macro have no meaning outside creationist polemics"? As for your "millimeter/kilometer" analogy, remember that micro/macro describes the results of a process, not a straight measure. A better description is that both creationists and evolutionists agree that people can walk (change in position/gene pool change), and that they can walk down the street (millimeter/micro). But extrapolating that they can walk to the moon (kilometer/macro) doesn't follow. The term millimeter and kilometer still mean the same thing, just like micro and macro evolution.drc466
December 3, 2014
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A primitive replicator, such as RNA
RNA is not a replicator.
We can show in bacteria that at least some mutations are random with respect to fitness
Meaningless trope.Joe
December 3, 2014
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Andre: Random? Really? Mutation and rate of mutation are different parameters. The former can be random with respect to fitness while the latter is not. An increased rate is often a response to generalized stress. Mapou: Without this system, we would all die. This system could not evolve because it must be there from the start. No, it doesn't have to be there at the start. A primitive replicator, such as RNA, would not need a repair mechanism. That's an enhancement that could evolve later. Mapou: The only mutations it allows are the ones that are triggered epigenetically in response to environmental pressure. We can show in bacteria that at least some mutations are random with respect to fitness. "You may look up Luria and Delbrück to learn more." Mapou: Any biologist who claims that adaptive mutations are random is a liar or a moron, IMO. Delbrück & Luria (along with Hershey) won the Nobel "for their discoveries concerning the replication mechanism and the genetic structure of viruses". They also helped launch modern molecular biology research. See Delbrück & Luria, Mutations of Bacteria from virus sensitivity to virus resistance, Genetics 1943. Lederberg, who won the Nobel for discovering that bacteria can exchange genes, did a different experiment showing the same result. See Lederberg & Lederberg, Replica Plating and Indirect Selection of Bacterial Mutants, Journal of Bacteriology 1952. Seriously, "liars or morons"?Zachriel
December 3, 2014
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sparc @9:
It’s not a darwinists dogma that mutations are random. It’s just a fact elaborated by molecular biologists. You may look up Luria and Delbrück to learn more. If a mutation is adaptive will be decided by selection.
This is nonsense and a perfect example of the mediocre and deceptive mentality that permeates Darwinism. Random mutations, which are over 99% of all possible mutations are routinely repaired by the inherent gene repair system that is part of all living organisms. Without this system, we would all die. This system could not evolve because it must be there from the start. The only mutations it allows are the ones that are triggered epigenetically in response to environmental pressure. Sure, mistakes can happen and the system sometimes fails but the failures are almost invariably deleterious. Any biologist who claims that adaptive mutations are random is a liar or a moron, IMO. He or she should be stripped of his/her credentials and his/her alma matter publicly discredited.Mapou
December 2, 2014
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Sparc
If a mutation is adaptive will be decided by selection.
How does nothing (what rocks dream about) decide something? Just curious....... Random? Really? Is this paper and its scientists liars for Jesus? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22522932Andre
December 2, 2014
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6 MapouDecember 2, 2014 at 7:54 pm Eigenstate @4, Nobody is claiming that mutations are not the primary driver of microevolution. How else could the new traits be inherited? This is not the point of contention. Darwinists have claimed and continue to claim that the mutations are random. This is a lie. Adaptive mutations are obviously not random since they can result in profound changes that can happen within a single generation. Heck, beneficial mutations happen during an organism’s lifetime. Even exercise changes the expression of certain genes in the body. These mutations are controlled and selected epigenetically, not via any kind of Darwinian process.
It's not a darwinists dogma that mutations are random. It's just a fact elaborated by molecular biologists. You may look up Luria and Delbrück to learn more. If a mutation is adaptive will be decided by selection.sparc
December 2, 2014
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@drc466
So, basically, the only leg left for you to stand on, is that creationists and evolutionists disagree on whether “microevolution” can add up to “macroevolution”. Which has never been in question. After all, Gary Hurd didn’t accuse creationists of not agreeing that micro writ large can perform macro – he accused creationists of:
Whatever the merits of that disagreement, it's beside my point: News' point in her OP is that this term was in use long before creationists turned it into an axe for their grinding. But that is *only* true in an equivocal sense. Dobzhansky in particular is a clear example of an incompatible and contradictory use of "macro" and "micro" against the creationist meaning of the terms. Dobzhansky's use of "micro" and "macro" do not have the same referent as modern creationists use of "micro" and "macro". It matters not to my point whether you think "micro is macro writ large" is true or false. News' equivocation or simple ignorance is not mitigated by that, either way. As for Hurd, I think his language is imprecise and prone to misunderstanding. I agree with his statement, but in the sense that "macro as micro writ large" renders both 'micro' and 'macro' as trivial terms of convenience. We might as well express the distance between the the tip of the Empire State Building and the tip of the TransAmerica spire in SF could be expressed in millimeters or kilometers. Both are "meaningful", but they are really just scaling descriptors for the same underlying concept of linear distance. The "millimeter/kilometer" distinction would be just as "meaningless", by analogy. They are interchangeable with scaling conversions. If one claimed that "no number of millimeters can make up a kilometer", which is analogous to the creationist intuition about 'micro' and 'macro' evolution, then you would have a distinction that makes a difference. In science there is no such distinction that makes such a difference. That, I believe, is the basis for the comment above.eigenstate
December 2, 2014
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eigenstate, You state:
No one that I’m aware of has claimed that the term itself — as a term, a word — was created by creationists. Rather the concept and connotations of ‘macroevolution’ vs. ‘microevolution’ as different in quality as opposed to different in scale/degree as it has been used historically.
Yet the article clearly states:
When engaging in debates, every once in a while I hear the claim that Darwin-critics also invented terms like “microevolution” or “macroevolution.” For example, Jonathan Wells reports, “In 2005, Darwinist Gary Hurd claimed that the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution was just a creationist fabrication. … Hurd wrote to the Kansas State Board of Education: “…’macro’ and ‘micro’ evolution … have no meaning outside of creationist polemics.” (Jonathan Wells, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design, pgs. 55-56). This is also a Darwinian urban legend, for such terms have been used regularly in the scientific literature. Indeed, textbooks commonly teach this terminology, including two of the textbooks I used in college when learning about evolutionary biology.
So - the OP is saying that the words "macro" and "micro" are claimed to be creationist creations. The references clearly show that evolutionists have long used the words "macro" and "micro". Furthermore, as the post clearly shows, creationists and evolutionists mean the exact same thing:
MACROEVOLUTION, that is, the origin and diversification of higher taxa.”...“microevolution” as “a change in the gene pool of a population over a succession of generations” and “slight, short-term evolutionary changes within species.”
So, basically, the only leg left for you to stand on, is that creationists and evolutionists disagree on whether "microevolution" can add up to "macroevolution". Which has never been in question. After all, Gary Hurd didn't accuse creationists of not agreeing that micro writ large can perform macro - he accused creationists of:
’macro’ and ‘micro’ evolution … have no meaning outside of creationist polemics.
Nice try - you only had to completely ignore the content of the OP to come up with an evolutionist-defending objection.drc466
December 2, 2014
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Eigenstate @4, Nobody is claiming that mutations are not the primary driver of microevolution. How else could the new traits be inherited? This is not the point of contention. Darwinists have claimed and continue to claim that the mutations are random. This is a lie. Adaptive mutations are obviously not random since they can result in profound changes that can happen within a single generation. Heck, beneficial mutations happen during an organism's lifetime. Even exercise changes the expression of certain genes in the body. These mutations are controlled and selected epigenetically, not via any kind of Darwinian process.Mapou
December 2, 2014
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quote: If he said, 'The spotted shall be your wages,' then all the flock bore spotted; and if he said, 'The striped shall be your wages,' then all the flock bore striped. Thus God has taken away the livestock of your father and given them to me. (Gen 31:8-9) End quote: The text makes it abundantly clear that this incident was not the normal way that things happen but a supernatural gift from Yahweh. Ancient people were not as stupid as you think. peacefifthmonarchyman
December 2, 2014
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@Mapou
Farmers and hunters have known about micro-evolution for thousands of years. This is how they know how to breed both animals and plants to get healthier and bigger specimens. Micro-evolution has nothing to do with Darwinian evolution because it does not involve any kind of random mutations.
I think you contradicted yourself here: mutations a primary driver for the "bigger and healthier" (as well as other kinds of changes) you refer to. How do you suppose "bigger" happens without mutations? What mechanism do you suppose produces the variation you're talking about?
It’s all about controlling the expression and/or silencing of various existing genes. It is controlled by epigenetics, which is a genetic program that is used by all living species to adapt to their environments. Animals would not survive without it. To claim that this is the same process that gives us new taxa flies in the face of logic and reveals your “science” to be just a me-too religion in disguise.
Processes like methylation of nucleotide bases and gene imprinting in ova/sperm formation don't replace or supersede or supplant mutations driving change, they ride on top of mutational dynamics. This is not a controversial, so far as I'm aware, or at least not outside the axe-grinding circuits of creationism. In any case, whatever the merits of your protest here, it doesn't mitigate the fail of News' part here; no time travel required. All one needs is a basic sense of what the terms meant to traditional scientists and the modern creationists. They did not use the terms to point at the same concepts, not nearly. So the whole thrust of this OP is based on either carelessness or cluelessess, which was the point I was making, conjectures about epigenetics and gene expression dynamics notwithstanding.eigenstate
December 2, 2014
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Genesis 30: Jacob took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing the white inner wood of the branches. Then he placed the peeled branches in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to drink, they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted.Zachriel
December 2, 2014
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Eigenstate, Farmers and hunters have known about micro-evolution for thousands of years. This is how they know how to breed both animals and plants to get healthier and bigger specimens. Micro-evolution has nothing to do with Darwinian evolution because it does not involve any kind of random mutations. It's all about controlling the expression and/or silencing of various existing genes. It is controlled by epigenetics, which is a genetic program that is used by all living species to adapt to their environments. Animals would not survive without it. To claim that this is the same process that gives us new taxa flies in the face of logic and reveals your "science" to be just a me-too religion in disguise.Mapou
December 2, 2014
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Hey News, No one that I'm aware of has claimed that the term itself -- as a term, a word -- was created by creationists. Rather the concept and connotations of 'macroevolution' vs. 'microevolution' as different in quality as opposed to different in scale/degree as it has been used historically. Which is to say your point here requires an equivocation on the terms. Do you think Dobzhansky, or his peers, used the term with the conceptual semantics that creationists do, namely that something qualitatively different takes place in 'macroevolution', rather than "microevolution writ large'. No, as anyone a little bit familiar with Dobzhanksy et al would know. The creationist us of the term is recent, and distinctly at odds with the traditional understanding of the terms. I personally favor continued use of terms, but in the traditional sense, as Dobzhansky et al used, something more like the way we use 'kilometers' and 'millimeters', and reclaim if from the confused and politically motivated semantics of creationist usage.eigenstate
December 2, 2014
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