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ID article in Guardian

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Here’s an indicator how the ID debate is shaping up in the UK. Please note the extensive comments at the end of this article at the Guardian website (go here).

Intelligent design is a science, not a faith
By Richard Buggs
Tuesday January 9, 2007
The Guardian

. . . If Darwin had known what we now know about molecular biology – gigabytes of coded information in DNA, cells rife with tiny machines, the highly specific structures of certain proteins – would he have found his own theory convincing? Randerson thinks that natural selection works fine to explain the origin of molecular machines. But the fact is that we are still unable even to guess Darwinian pathways for the origin of most complex biological structures.

Science has turned lots of corners since Darwin, and many of them have thrown up data quite unpredicted by his theory. Who, on Darwinian premises, would have expected that the patterns of distribution and abundance of species in tropical rainforests could be modelled without taking local adaptation into account? Or that whenever we sequence a new genome we find unique genes, unlike any found in other species? Or that bacteria gain pathogenicity (the ability to cause disease) by losing genes?

But, whatever the limitations of Darwinism, isn’t the intelligent design alternative an “intellectual dead end”? No. If true, ID is a profound insight into the natural world and a motivator to scientific inquiry. The pioneers of modern science, who were convinced that nature is designed, consequently held that it could be understood by human intellects. This confidence helped to drive the scientific revolution. More recently, proponents of ID predicted that some “junk” DNA must have a function well before this view became mainstream among Darwinists. . . .

SOURCE

Comments
With the premise that they have been designed, what are probable reasons for the forms of the Wnt proteins and the subsequent signalling pathways vital for embryogenesis? Bear in mind that “elegance” and “efficiency” are not descriptors which could possibly be applied to the Wnt signalling pathways by anyone sane.
I can’t count the number of times I’ve gone back to some of my old software code that I hadn’t looked at in many months, and thought, “Why did I put that code in there? That’s unnecessary and/or inefficient.” Nine times out of ten, when I remove or modify the “inelegant, inefficient or unnecessary” code, the program promptly goes down in flames. Upon reflection I will recall that the problem I was trying to solve was not as straightforward as I had originally thought, and a more complex or more circuitous solution was necessary. The phenomenon described above is even more acute when one attempts to modify code written by someone else. So, I would not be surprised if we eventually discover that many of those apparently “awkward and inefficient” biological solutions are, in fact, optimal or near optimal solutions. That’s an ID-based prediction folks. You may write that down.GilDodgen
January 10, 2007
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"Why is the human genome >=96% entirely nonfunctional?” Junk DNA is a term that has been used, often erroneously, to describe various sequences in a genome, including non-coding regions, introns, pseudogenes, and repetitive sequences. Cutting edge research is showing that 'junk DNA' is a critical component of truly 'expert' cellular control regimes." - Richard Sternberg and James A. Shapiro Rosetta Genomics has exploring this region and has discovered about half the microRNA genes known. "Why are reptilian scales and bird feathers built from very nearly the same proteins?” This finding does suggest common ancestry of feathers from lizards. However, it also could suggest efficient reuse of existing technologies. As many IDers, like myself, buy into common ancestry, it is no surprise that birds actually did evolve (by non-NDE mechanisms) from lizzards/dinosaurs." True this could be the case, but keep in mind Storrs L. Olson, the Curator of Birds at the Smithsonian Institution flatly rejects the idea of feathered dinosaurs and the theropod origin of birds. He could be proven wrong in time, but I am skeptical of the dinosaur-bird connection. "With the principle of design in mind, why do box jellyfish … have three different types of eyes. … the lensal image focussed well behind the retina, leading to the conclusion that all they would be able to see are large, extremely blurry and diffuse images?" Is there any real evidence that box jelly fish have blurry vision? Or is this just speculation?a5b01zerobone
January 10, 2007
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Rabbite_uk, I appreciate that there is one poster in the guardian that engaged brain before engaging keyboard. The poster did bring up some interesting questions. I plan to take a bit of a whack at them: 1: Why does life only use 20 aminos? While it is true that there are more available aminos, I fail to see what this question has to do with design v. evolution. Both modes could theoretically have used a different combo of aminos. The selected set of aminos has, however, worked surprisingly well. Was this because natural selection lucked out, because any reasonable combination would work well, or because an intelligence with the foresight to see all that has developed selected the 20 that are used? 2: "What are probable reasons for the peculiar and utterly puzzling presence of ribonucleotide fragments in biochemical cofactors?" There are a lot of unanswered puzzles in biology. My question is, "how can biology declare their theory as 'fact' when there are still so many unanswered questions?" 3: Why is the ribosome a ribozyme? See answer #2. 4: "With the premise that they have been designed, what are probable reasons for the forms of the Wnt proteins and the subsequent signalling pathways vital for embryogenesis? Bear in mind that “elegance” and “efficiency” are not descriptors which could possibly be applied to the Wnt signalling pathways by anyone sane." One must give that with our current understanding of biology there is a lot of it that is not designed with "elegance" and "efficiency" in mind. I find this to be a reasonable argument against ID. However, there is buckets of other suff that appears designed with "elegance" and "efficiency" in mind. Could it be that I don't see the elegance and efficiency of some portions because I don't completely understand them? In general, I find some value in this argument. 5: "Why is the human genome >=96% entirely nonfunctional?" I think that this is a huge leap. From what I understand about 50% of the human genome is to some statistical extent "conserved". If it is conserved, NDE requires that it have function. The option are: 44% of the genome has unknown function, or 44% of the genome is conserved in a way that is incompatible with NDE. Some front-loading hypothesees suggest that the human genome has the genetic information for other organisms floating around in it. If the human genome also knows how to make a hawk, it would buckets of unused DNA that is conserved by a yet not understood mechanism. 6: "Given the premise of deliberate design, what are probable reasons is this [duck foot] webbing retained, not through a lack of BMP4, but through the production of both normal amounts of BMP4 and the additional production of the protein Gremlin, which simply blocks the action of BMP4? As NDE is really good at destroying stuff to make a better solution, it would seem that the NDE hypothesis would choose the destruction of BMP4 rather than the more difficult creation of the protein Gremlin. Beyond that, see my response in question #2. 7: Why are cactus spines built out of the same elements as “normal” leaves, despite their very different form and function? See answer 8, below. 8: "Why are reptilian scales and bird feathers built from very nearly the same proteins?" This finding does suggest common ancestry of feathers from lizards. However, it also could suggest efficient reuse of existing technologies. As many IDers, like myself, buy into common ancestry, it is no surprise that birds actually did evolve (by non-NDE mechanisms) from lizzards/dinosaurs. 9: "What are probable reasons for the similar morphology but very dissimilar use of bones in pterosaur, bird, and bat wings, given that all these have the ultimate function of flight?" From an ID perspective, it would seem that the designer enjoys playing with as many variations as possible. The better question, why are bird wings made from a different set of the five digits of the limb than the three bones of the dinosaur hand are? 10: "Why aren’t there any flying marsupials?" I don't know. See #2. 11: "What are probable reasons that approximately 1 in every 100,000 whales are born with apparently vestigial and functionless leg buds at the position that hind limbs would likely be?" This phenomenon would imply that whales are the common descendants of land animals. Those of us IDers who also accept common ancestry haven't got any trouble with this at all. 12: Why do baleen whales develop and calcify teeth in utero, which are then resorbed just before birth? See answer to #6. 13: "Why do so many creatures of phylum Mollusca have better eyes than we do?" I have never test-driven a mollusc eye. Eagles also have a much better eye than we do. I have found the "blind spot" to be such a bother in my everyday life -- like what blind spot? Though the thing theoretically exists, it doesn't appear to exist in my eyes. 14: With the principle of design in mind, why do box jellyfish ... have three different types of eyes. ... the lensal image focussed well behind the retina, leading to the conclusion that all they would be able to see are large, extremely blurry and diffuse images?" Why the heck would NDE produce such an incomplete work product? Is it because jellyfish are a recent evolutionary product? Primarily, see answer #2. 15: "What are the probable reasons that despite their skeletal adaptations to a bamboo diet (i.e. dentition and the famous “thumb” used for stripping bamboo leaves), pandas have a carnivore’s lower digestive system, which unfortunately leaves most pandas in the wild in a perpetual state of near-starvation?" See answer #14, above. At least in this case the "its a recent and incomplete evolutionary product" answer is reasonable. The bigger question with pandas remains, how did the giant and lesser panda both develop their "thumb", though they have very different apparent lineages. Why did they not just develop a true-digit thumb as we did, or develop a sixth digit? The panda's thumb is a puzzling case of an unusual convergent solution that fits a designer hypothesis much easer than it fits an NDE hypothesis. Now, if there are any bona-fide biologists out there that can enhance my answers, please feel free. I know that there are much richer answers available especially when discussing the eye. (* for the evolutionary sorts, I refer to NDE to distinguish the RM+NS portion of the the MET from all of the stuff that I see as valid. Remember, I, like many buy into MET's view on common ancestry.)bFast
January 10, 2007
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I'm once again amazed, though by now I shouldn't be, at how quickly Darwinism's defenders turn to name-calling, straw-men, and ad-hominem counterattacks. Look for the three standard replies: 1. disbelievers in Darwinism are ignorant creationists 2. They don't understand the real science. 3. The vast majority of Those Who Know believe in Darwinism. Variations of these make up by far the majority of the complaining comments after the piece. If you nail a Darwinist down to discussing actual evidence, they usually end up having to make a defense AGAINST the evidence (fossils, Cambrian expl., molecular clock discrepancies etc. etc..).dacook
January 10, 2007
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I also noticed the comments (at least 3) with people threatening to leave the Guardian. I read the CIF (comment is free) part of the Guardian quite regularly and I don't recall anyone ever threatening to quit reading the paper because of a CIF article - and trust me, there are contributions from all sorts of POVs. What is it about ID that is so exteme, subversive and downright dastardly that somewone would quit the paper because there was an opinion in support of ID expressed?antg
January 10, 2007
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I live in the UK and it's a nice surprise to see such an article appear in the Guardian (one of the most leftie papers). Perhaps from the comments, one can see why newspapers are reluctant to comment on the origins debate or heavily bias it in favor of the ToE. Some readers have threatened to cancel their subscriptions - such is their offence. As one would expect, most of the comments are just hot air - I could only really see one which appeared to refer to science: LuisGarcia January 9, 2007 09:44 AM (this might be GMT time). As I am not a biologist, can anyone here answer his 15 questions? Also good to see a British chess grandmaster (James Plaskett) appear in the Comments as an ID supporter.rabbite_uk
January 10, 2007
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Reading the comments section reminded me of how I felt reading Ken Miller's book. If their arguments are so strong, why be so emotional, defensive, etc? Miller's book was tonally so different from what I read in Behe/Johnson that, independently of any understanding of the evidence, it was clear to me which party KNEW they were on the side of right - the side that could afford to be polite, deferrent, understated, cautious, giving credit where credit is due. It's a cruel fact known by all bullying young boys - the more defensive the target, the more one's taunts have really hit home. Judging from the comments section at the Guardian, this guy has really hit home.Imaginer
January 10, 2007
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Crandaddy I couldn't agree more.Atom
January 10, 2007
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A brief skim through the comments should be enough to convince any thinking person that ID critics are motivated at least as much (and probably more) by their personal prejudices than any ID advocate. That these people so authoritatively and condescendingly pontificate such stupid, fallacious arguments simply takes the breath away! Every time I wade through such dreck, I become more convinced that I'm on the right side.crandaddy
January 10, 2007
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Yeah, props to the Guardian. As much as Leftists seem to embrace Darwinism as unquestionable axiom, they still published an openly pro-ID article. It warms my heart to see Leftists living out their beliefs, proving that they really do embrace open discussion of ideas, even ones they disagree with.Atom
January 10, 2007
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Hi bFast. I saw this comment too and just had to shake my head. “Hey, you guys have had 6000 years to figure out who the designer is …” I think this poor person is not only confusing ID with Young Earth Creationism, but assuming that ID is religious in nature.a5b01zerobone
January 10, 2007
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Good on the Guardian for publishing a view that isn't their own. The comments are rich. "Hey, you guys have had 6000 years to figure out who the designer is ..." That proves it right there -- I'm sold, I'm a darwinist now.bFast
January 10, 2007
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Hi MStreet. What's interesting about the anti ID comments is this. The Manchester Guardian is generally in sympathy with liberal and left-wing ends of the political spectrum. The "evolution of the world is moving inevitably towards Socialism" kind of thing. This is reflected in the paper's readership.a5b01zerobone
January 10, 2007
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This is interesting. In the 2001 census 72 per cent of Britons described themselves as Christian but only about 6.3 per cent go to church on any given Sunday. The United States on the other hand has a higher level of church attendance than any other developed country. 20% of Americans actually go to church one or more times a week. My point is that ID is taking root in secular 21st century Britain. This is extraordinary! I guess this is some kind of proof that ID truly is a science.a5b01zerobone
January 10, 2007
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The comments seem to indicate that ID isn't taking, but it's a small sample.mstreet
January 10, 2007
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