Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Platonic forms do not suggest we evolved from fish

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For the sake of argument, let us assume, as Michael Denton did, that there is universal common ancestry. The problem, both in terms of comparative anatomy and biochemistry, is that an unprejudiced view of the data suggests we didn’t evolve from fish. When I brought the topic up earlier in Taxonomic nested hierarchies don’t support Darwinism, in the course of my arguments in that thread, it became ever more apparent even at the molecular level, it was hard to justify the claim that we evolved from fish.

Linnaeus and other creationists perceived Platonic forms we know by names today such as: Vetebrates, Mammals, Primates, and Humans. These forms defy the story that we evolved from fish.

Again, let us suppose we all evolved from a common ancestor. Based on the data, who would be our ancestor? Would it be a fish, or some unspecified vertebrate? Let us, in an unprejudiced way simply lump the most similar organisms with each other based on similarity. What would the REAL groupings look like. Here is the grouping we would see using Bone Morphogenic proteins:

Click here for a larger image: Bone Morphogenic Proteins

bone morphogenic proteins

You’ll get a similar grouping with the protein cytochrome-c which agrees with the old creationist Linnaean classification based on comparison of characters:

linnaean taxonomy

Amusingly, those diagrams were assembled to prove evolution. Superficially the impression of common descent is there, but problematic is the groupings look like the old creationist system where fish aren’t ancestors of mammals but instead (at best) some unspecified vertebrate. As Denton pointed out, as overwhelming the impression is of common descent, overwhelming as well is the impression there can’t be transitionals (like say between fish and mammals), and therefore evolution is impossible even in principle.

The creationist reasoning would go like this:

Vertebrates descend from Vetebrates
Mammals descend from Mammals
Primates descend from Primates
Humans descend from Humans

Therefore: Humans descended from Humans

The Darwinist reasoning goes like this:

Vertebrates descend from Vetebrates
Mammals descend from Mammals
Primates descend from Primates
Humans descend from Humans

Therefore: Humans descended from Fish 😯

So why do Darwinists, in the view of this overwhelming evidence against fish being our ancestors, insist mammals are actually fish (via phylogeny)? I did a little more digging into phylogentics and lo and behold, the answer emerged. Those clever weasels figured out methods to project whatever evolutionary story they want onto the data with fancy sounding methods like: Maximum Likelihood Phylogenetics and Baysian Evolutionary Analysis.

See: Phylogenetics 101. Look at page 25 where it shows how you can build trees with a preconceived model of evolution, and how you can build trees without one. (btw, Joe Felsenstein of PandasThumb and SkepticalZone is featured on page 29). You’ll see that one can build trees anyway you want with these “advanced” methods. All you have to do is assume who the common ancestors are first, and you can force fit the data anyway you want to agree with your preconceived evolutionary story. As I told Nick Matzke many moons ago, with such loose parameters you can argue fish evolved from humans!

And from the Berkeley evolution site:
Phylogentics

Another cool thing about phylogenetic classification is that it means that dinosaurs are not entirely extinct. Birds are, in fact, dinosaurs (part of the clade Dinosauria).

And by such phylogenetic reasoning also, we aren’t mammals we are fish — a claim which is at variance with an unprejudiced grouping based on comparative anatomy and biochemistry. The data agree with the existence of Platonic forms, not the twisted Darwinian view that rejects Platonic forms in favor of saying we are fish.

Though Denton accepts common ancestry, the incongruity of the Darwinist reasoning cannot explain the appearance of Platonic forms which seem to transcend (if not defy) any possible evolutionary story.

After looking at the data in an unprejudiced way, it bothered me that evolutionists would insist we evolved from fish when the data told another story. Something smelled fishy (pun intended).

Comments
JLAfan2001: Whether, [my] writings change the neural pathways in your brain or not is irrelevant.
Whew. Well, that's a load off.CentralScrutinizer
June 6, 2013
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WJM Yes, I’m writing what I’m writing because the neurons and synapses in my brain currently compel me to. I don’t have a choice because the current DNA code and genes wired my brain this way and I must do it. Whether, these writings change the neural pathways in your brain or not is irrelevant. If your brain does happen to change the paths to adapt to the new informative environment, so be it. If it doesn’t, I’m still compelled by my genetic make up to write. If you believe in truth then which truth do you believe in? Why is it truth? Why not someone else’s truth is truth? I mentioned before that there are three competing creation views among some of the posters. Which one is right? Jguy came back and said that the core of the Christian doctrine is the agreed upon truth from the three posters. Why is that and not the Quran or the book of mormom? The earliest gospel was written in 70 AD some 40 years after the death of Jesus. This would be 40 years of the telephone game and they were mostly likely not written by eyewitnesses. Would you find truth in such an event? I know that you believe but if you eliminate all the holy books, what evidence is there for God? We would just have scientific knowledge of evolution etc and be fine with it. I’ve mentioned before that Genesis is completely false. Multiple true worldviews is not logical and therefore the truth can’t be known and hence Nihilism. Please tell me what the absolute truthful and correct worldview is and my brain may rewire itself to accept it.JLAfan2001
June 6, 2013
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WD400 in #32:
What I’ve never seen is a scientific reason why phylogentics could not just as easily be showing the presence of common design! Here’s one: phylogenies estimated from junk DNA and silent sites are the same as or congruent with those estimated from functional DNA. In fact, most of variants in phylogenetic studies will have very little to do with the function of an organism.
Well, KF may have a point about junk DNA. From a Scientific American article:
Should we be retiring the phrase “junk DNA” now? Yes, I really think this phrase does need to be totally expunged from the lexicon. It was a slightly throwaway phrase to describe very interesting phenomena that were discovered in the 1970s. I am now convinced that it’s just not a very useful way of describing what’s going on.
I suppose it all depends on what is meant by "junk DNA".DonaldM
June 6, 2013
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Scordova, your platonic thinking is what’s preventing you from seeing the real pattern here. Fish should cluster (or fall into clades) with fish, of course. Just as mammals will fall into clades with other mammals. One of the reasons we say some of the ancestors of mammals were fish is that some fish are more closely related to land-verterbrates than they are to other fish. This is not something evolutionary biologists wish to be true, and use as an assumption in their analyses. It’s the only conclusion the data allows us to draw.
Here is a photo of a lungfish: lungfish Here is a photo of a tetrapod: tetrapod The data drives the platonic thinking, not the other way around. Lungfish do share some characteristics with tetrapods in that they are both vertebrates, and maybe a few more than other fish, but it hardly argues something like a lungfish is the ancestor of birds. The molecular data may suggest occasional closeness. For example the tuna cytochrome-c is 11% away from a coelacanth whereas the coelacanth is only 10% away from humans. But that is extremely marginal. The mean for fish is very distinct for the mean for mammals. Over emphasizing a few outliers in the tails of a distribution is not grounds to make a sound inference. So yes, you can find a few molecular exceptions, but in view of the vast and distinct anatomical differences, and other molecular data, the interpretation is forced. But no need to settle the issues in the space of this discussion. These questions could lead to an interesting research project. Rather than postulating a fish as the ancestor of birds, mammals, and amphibians, how about postulating a conceptual vertebrate ancestor of fish, birds, mammals, and amphibians. For molecular data, surely we can come up with some sort of mean for the vertebrates relative to invertebrates. I bet the conceptual ancestor will yield a substantially less conflicted phylogeny than the forced one using fish as the ancestor of tetrapods. If so, then common design will be a better "phylogeny" than common descent. The reason I say that is that it is evidence by the data above: 1. Bone Morphogenic Proteins 2. Anatomical Grouping (thanks also to Barb for highlighting) 3. Cytochrome-c 4. probably other molecular data The clustering is very natural and without any prejudice, it suggest a "phylogeny" but not one where one group is ancestral to another. But since evolutionism demands that similarity be explained primarily by common physical descent, the least conflicted "phylogeny" of common conceptual descent is off the table by philosophical fiat. And if I can further postulate, phylogenies that only insist on common physical descent rather than common conceptual descent will be doomed to serious conflict because the least conflicted "phylogeny" is always taken off the table. For example, the least conflicted "phylogeny" for vertebrates is that all vertebrates (fish, mammals, birds, amphibians) descended from the conceptual model of vertebrate. Everything works well with that model, but the philosophical implications are disagreeable to evolutionism, even though conceptual descent fits the data far better than physical descent. The phylogenies evolutionist come up with are doomed to be more conflicted than the "phylogeny" suggested by the platonic forms which is so easily seen by simple analysis of similarities. No need to settle the issue in the space of this discussion, future research will settle this, and ID proponents and creationists must surely be heartened by the existing conflicts in materialist phylogenetics. The conflicts might be solved if common conceptual descent is admitted. If materialism is removed from phylogentics, suddenly a lot of the conflicts of evolutionary history might disappear, because the real evolution was conceptual, not physical, and if real evolution was conceptual, it implies ID. In any case, thank you for taking the time to exchange your thoughts with us.scordova
June 6, 2013
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WJM: That inner tension is probably what is giving hope for JLA. let us respect it, and let us help him see that the problem is an incoherent ideology, one that happens to hold a lot of cultural and institutional prestige and influence today. KFkairosfocus
June 6, 2013
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The moral of the story is: whether or not JLAfan2001 believes in such things, JLAfan2001 must think, act and argue as if JLAfan2001 has libertarian free will. All meaningful arguments are predicated on the assumption that both yourself and the person you are debating have independent, supervening command over these blind processes and are capable of objective, independent inspection of your ideas and introspection of their own. Such arguments presume (consciously or not) that logic is a universal, objective arbiter, not whatever last night's meat loaf computes it to be. Precipitating such arguments is a deep assumption that such arguments matter, that truth is - for some reason - worth pursuing, and that we are capable of pursuing actual truth, not just whatever today's concoction of material bits happens to vomit out in our particular case. So, what is JLAfan2001 really doing here, after accepting the nihilistic ramifications of materialism? What is he/she arguing for, or about, when his/her view must be accepted as just as much monkey-feces as those he/she argues against? Is JLAfan2001 trying to rob others of their comforting, meaningful, non-materialistic myths and superstitions? Does he/she want them to adopt his/her nihilistic perspective? Why? If none of it matters, why run around promulgating such a position, even if true? Or, is JLAfan2001 fishing around to be convinced otherwise?William J Murray
June 6, 2013
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wd400:
The reason we can discard “common design” as an explanation for the power of phylogenetics is that you arrive at the same tree when you use junk DNA and silent sites that have any effect on the organisms phenotype.
That doesn't follow. Just because you think they are silent sites and junk DNA doesn't make them so. And there isn't any reason to assume that silent sites and junk DNA can be used as any markers.Joe
June 6, 2013
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wd400:
– Tiitalik is a fish with limbs (if those limbs are too fin-like go for Acanthostega).
That doesn't mean the blind watchmaker didit.
Some (non-avian) Dinosaurs had bird-like lungs.
That doesn't mean the blind watchmaker didit.
Plenty of modern mammals don’t have noticable mammary glands, so we wouldn’t expect to see a your “reptiles with mammary glands” in the fossil record any more that we’d see a croco-duck.
Perhaps, however we should see a smooth/ gradual blending of traits which would ruin a nice, neat nested hierarchy based on traits.Joe
June 6, 2013
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And so one wonders, if materialistic nihilism and atheism is true, why does JLAfan2001 bother coming here making arguments and reading them? Is he trying to convince one inevitable product of interacting matter to act and behave like another inevitable product of interacting matter? To change the opinion of others, under materialism, is like trying to convince an oak leaf to look more like a magnolia leaf. Why bother? Perhaps JLAfan2001 admits that the only reason to make such arguments is because, valid or not, rational or not, JLAfan2001's particular physical computation commands that JLAfan2001 come here and argue with other material computations as if his/her material computation is "more true" than theirs. What does "truth" matter, under materialism? You believe, think, do and say as matter dictates, period, whether it is true or not. Under materialism, "you" is nothing but a euphemism for "physical computation"; you do not "control" it, or "check it for errors"; you are nothing but the computatation. What is rational, true or good is just whatever each computation dictates at the time - and is utterly self-referential, because there is nothing else to refer to, other than whatever the computation interprets, processes and outputs. Although JLAfan2001 says he/she has accepted the philosophical ramifications of materialism, and is tired of other materialists attempting to have their cake and eat it too by denying the obvious ramifications through compatibalism and other semantic tricks, here is JLAfan2001 doing exactly the same thing: being hypocritical. Appealing to "logic" and "evidence" as if JLAfan2001 can examine and evaluate such argument and evidence objectively and free of the material computation that will dictate how - under materialism - both JLAfan2001 and his/her opponents interpret the evidence and how they reach their conclusions. Material interactions force the computation known as JLAfan2001 to believe in Darwinistic evolution just as senselessly as it forces others to believe in creationism, which renders argument, evidence and debate nothing more, in essence, than monkeys flinging feces around in an attempt to "convince" a physical computation to conclude something other than what it does.William J Murray
June 6, 2013
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JLAfan2001 does such a good job of accepting many of the philosophical ramifications of materialism (atheism, nihilism), but I wonder if he/she recognizes the fallacy of thought he/she is now committing as far as arguing evidence and logic in favor reaching pro-Darwinistic conclusions? IF what we think, believe and argue is nothing more than aggregation of happenstance (by physical law and chance) interactions of material phenomena, then what one refers to as "logic", or "evidence", is nothing more than what one's material system happens to produce. Since billions of people have believed radically different things since the dawn of time, it is non-controversial to point out that such material interactions - if that is all "we" are - do not reliably produce valid or truthful beliefs or aguments. Under materialism, all JLAfan2001 can be is the product of the computation of interacting material. If such interacting material compels JLAfan2001 to bark like a dog and think that wisdom has been uttered, that is what JLAfan2001 will do, and believe. Under materialism, JLAfan2001 sees, interprets, understands, and reaches conclusions exactly the same way any creationist or any madman does: material forces compute it, JLAfan2001 believes it. Nothing more, nothing less. One would assume JLAfan2001 realizes this is the consequence of materialism. JLAfan2001 has no objective arbiter or locus of free will to refer to or use in evaluating any argument or evidence, interview or article. When interacting with any media or person, JLAfan2001 will understand of that interaction what his/her particular material computation orders, whether or not it has anything to do with what is actually there or not. JLAfan2001 will conclude and believe of that interaction whatever his/her particular mix of interacting materials commands, whether rationally sound or not. JLAfan2001 might eat a bit of pizza and listen to some music and wake up a devout Muslim the next day because of it, depending on the physical interactions that ensue from these events. So, why does JLAfan2001 argue as if JLAfan2001 has any comprehension of what the "evidence" is, or means, or as if how he/she processes information and comes to conclusions is any different from those in disagreement? JLAfan2001 and his opponents come to their "conclusions" in exactly the same manner, under materialism: they conclude whatever physics and biology commands them to conclude. JLAfan2001 "argument" here, under materialism, is nothing more than the rustling of leaves as the wind and physical properties commands it, making no more "sense" or headway into "truth" than that rustling can intrinsically provide.William J Murray
June 6, 2013
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wd400, why must you always point to highly contestable historical evidence for Darwinism and 'let our imagination do the rest of the work' as to the transitions in question instead of ever providing us with any real and actual empirical evidence for what you claim is possible for neo-Darwinian processes? i.e. Why do you not yourself demand a demonstration of the core claim of neo-Darwinism? You simply have ZERO demonstrable evidence that what are perceived to be purely material processes can generate ANY functional information:
Where's the substantiating evidence for neo-Darwinism? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q-PBeQELzT4pkgxB2ZOxGxwv6ynOixfzqzsFlCJ9jrw/edit “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag
wd400, why do you yourself not demand a demonstration of neo-Darwinian processes? Why must you always rely on fuzzy historical evidence and imagination to do your dirty work? To me at the answer is obvious for why you refuse to be the least bit suspicious of Darwinian claims, you simply, for philosophical reasons, do not want neo-Darwinism to be false,,, Philosophically, I hold that you find the notion of a created universe and world, to use Eddington's word, repugnant. But the implications of empirical science could care less about what a priori philosophical beliefs a person holds! And on that score your materialistic neo-Darwinian view of reality is found to be false. Laughably false at that! For one thing, advances in quantum mechanics reveal that we live in a Theistic universe, not a materialistic universe.
the argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a 'epi-phenomena' of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Universe https://docs.google.com/document/d/1agaJIWjPWHs5vtMx5SkpaMPbantoP471k0lNBUXg0Xo/edit
Thus wd400, even if the highly contestable fuzzy historical evidence you rely on to try make your case for atheistic Darwinism were true, it does not matter in the least for God is now found, by empirical science, to be the true source and foundation of what is perceived to be material reality.,,, But why should you even fight, with such weak evidence, against this of reality in the first place? This is wonderful news wd400!, for now, according to our best science, we are not, as JLAfan2001 holds, hopelessly lost in a nihilistic pit of despair where life has no true value, meaning, or purpose.,, But we now have very, very, good reason to believe that our lives on this 'pale blue dot' truly do matter and that there really is a true purpose to our existence.,,, Considering the alternatives, I would think atheists would be far more welcoming of the news instead of reacting as they do, as if even the possibility of God is the worse news in the world. Verse and Music:
John 5:40 ",yet you refuse to come to me to have life." Made To Love - Tobymac http://myktis.com/songs/made-to-love/
supplemental note:
"(Although atheists accuse Theists of making extraordinary claims) The truly extraordinary claim — indeed, the wildly and irresponsibly outrageous claim — is that a highly scalable, massively parallel system architecture incorporating a 4-bit digital coding system and a super-dense, information-rich, three-dimensional, multi-layered, multi-directional database structure with storage, retrieval and translation mechanisms, utilizing file allocation, concatenation and bit-parity algorithms, operating subject to software protocol hierarchies could all come about through a long series of accidental particle collisions. That is beyond extraordinary. It is preposterous. It is laughable." https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/naturalism-intelligent-design-and-extraordinary-claims-part-ii/
bornagain77
June 6, 2013
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Thank you WD400 for your response. As I said in my previous post my views at one time would have been extremely reminiscent of yours. However, after having researched this matter for so long, and discovering what I have, I can honestly say that the Darwinian view of evolution has little merit. Of course I am very aware of Tiktaalik, and Acanthostiga, however I'm sure you are just as aware of the many problems surrounding them as being transitional, and perhaps non more so than the discovery of tetrapod tracks that pre-date Tiktallik by some 30my. If these dates are indeed correct then this would pre-date Acanthostiga by at least 50my, making them older than both. If this is evidence for the evolution of tetrapods then surely it needs explaining why four legged creatures were parading themselves around on the shoreline mid-way through the supposed transition between fish and Tiktaalik. I agree that the examples I put forward are not by any means concrete evidences as to why one would reject Darwinian evolution, but I do believe that when we look at the changes necessary to get a bird or mammal from a reptile for instance there are many more hurdles to overcome, and from what I have seen so far, the majority of these hurdles simply adds to the problem and falsifies the theory. Transitional fossils are something that the fossil record has yet to yield, that in my opinion, gives a clear example that Darwinian evolution has taken place in the history of life. Regards PeterJPeterJ
June 6, 2013
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Why is our friend WD400 so confident about his assertions if the actual scientists studying it are not in the words of Craig Venter "so sanguine" as WD400 is? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3176480/ The closing statement in the peer reviewed article... "The Tree of Life is coming increasingly within our reach, but we still must take care not to grasp automatically at the first solution that comes along." You know what it says WD400? It says actually we know zip.... we think we do but we really don't!Andre
June 6, 2013
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This is too easy - Tiitalik is a fish with limbs (if those limbs are too fin-like go for Acanthostega). Some (non-avian) Dinosaurs had bird-like lungs. Plenty of modern mammals don't have noticable mammary glands, so we wouldn't expect to see a your "reptiles with mammary glands" in the fossil record any more that we'd see a croco-duck.wd400
June 6, 2013
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Seeing as how I am probably responsible for much of the discussion now taking place in this thread (having posted the link in #19), I would just like to add my 2p worth. In a previous post JLAfan2001 put forward aprox 8 points as to why he believes in 'evolution'. I have to confess that up until 7 years ago, at the age of 38, those views would have mirrored my own. Being quite ignorant at that time of 'creation' or 'intelligent design', I would have whole heartedly agreed with him. However, my views on such matters radically changed, primarily as I became a Christian, but more so as I sought to find the truth about this rather controversial subject. Without going into the history of my study I would just like to say that from what I have learned so far, the fossil record is suffice for me to disprove Darwinian evolution. When discussing these things with non-believers/athiests in my home town/internet it is the one area of evolutionary theory that I believe is refuted by the evidence. You know, as was pointed out above 'where are your fish with limbs? where are your reptiles with avian lungs? Where are your reptiles with mammary glands? etc. What made the news in the above article was mainly that it was the 'oldest specimen to date in the line of primates, which may shed light on how primates evolved' Ok, so it's thought to be 55my old with the common ancestor for it and humans being a little older, lets say 65my. This time scale is very reminiscent of some other supposed 'evolutionary paths' i.e. Ambulocetus - whale. What then of all the creatures that haven't evolved in that period time, and longer? Is there not more evidence of stasis in the fossil record than of one creature evolving into another? I can no more believe in Darwinian evolution than I can in pink fairies living at the top of my chimney.PeterJ
June 6, 2013
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For those interested in molecular phylogenies and common descent, here's an oldie-but-goodie: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/a_primer_on_the_tree_of_life_p020141.html And for good measure: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/bothersome_bats067121.html The claim that molecular phylogenies provide a self-consistent picture of evolutionary lineages is manifestly untrue.Optimus
June 5, 2013
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PS: On Junk DNA, cf here, collectively and places like here or here.kairosfocus
June 5, 2013
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F/N: I think we are seeing more of the presentation of Darwinist interpretation (unfortunately, loaded with circles of thought) as near indisputable fact. For instance, that a small member of our anatomical "tribe" should turn up and be given a date of was it 55 MYA, in a context where science itself is being redefined on making naturalistic explanations, will carry little weight save with true believers, certainly on matters such as: kindly explain on observed evidence, origin of cell based life by blind watchmaker mechanisms, especially the FSCO/I involved. Similarly, on origin of major body plans. Johnson's challenge yet lingers unresolved:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. [emphasis added] That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
KFkairosfocus
June 5, 2013
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KF, while I'll be short in my reply: No, it's not, and if you think it is you have a lot of biology to explain (like, how to Fugu and bladderworts, as two examples, get by so well with none of the junky sequences their relatives keep?)wd400
June 5, 2013
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WD: Under present circumstances I have little inclination to enter a long exchange, I will just say that on trends and direct as well as indirect evidence of function, junk DNA is headed for retirement as a major concept. KFkairosfocus
June 5, 2013
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What I’ve never seen is a scientific reason why phylogentics could not just as easily be showing the presence of common design! Here's one: phylogenies estimated from junk DNA and silent sites are the same as or congruent with those estimated from functional DNA. In fact, most of variants in phylogenetic studies will have very little to do with the function of an organism.wd400
June 5, 2013
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WD400 in #29
DonaldM, Inferring phylogenie is a statistical process, and not surprisingly many statistical methods have been applied to the problem. You description of the book sounds very much like you don’t understand how phylogenetics work (we aren’t actually trying to estimate the tree that relates the ~10 billion species on earth all in one go!). Perhaps you should read a little more widely.
I wasn't suggesting that phylogentics is attempting estimate the ToL all in one go. That wasn't my point. My point is the entire enterprise of Phylogentics assumes the very thing it is attempting to prove (or rather confirm) - which is evolution. There is nothing in the phylogentic analysis that precludes the possibility that what you're examining is common design instead of common ancestry. If there is some scientific basis within phylogentics to preclude common design, I'd love to know what it is. By definition "In biology, phylogenetics /fa?l?d???n?t?ks/ is the study of evolutionary relationships among groups of organisms (e.g. species, populations), which are discovered through molecular sequencing data and morphological data matrices." (Wikipedia) "Phylogenetic systematics is that field of biology that does deal with identifying and understanding the evolutionary relationships among the many different kinds of life on earth, both living (extant) and dead (extinct). Evolutionary theory states that similarity among individuals or species is attributable to common descent, or inheritance from a common ancestor. Thus, the relationships established by phylogenetic systematics often describe a species' evolutionary history and, hence, its phylogeny, the historical relationships among lineages or organisms or their parts, such as their genes." NCBI website "The study of evolutionary relatedness among various groups of organisms through molecular sequencing data and morphological data matrices." Biology-online And this last one is my favorite: "What is phylogenetic systematics, you ask? It is the way that biologists reconstruct the pattern of events that have led to the distribution and diversity of life. There is an amazing diversity of life, both living and extinct. For biologists to communicate with each other about these many organisms, there must also be a classification of these organisms into groups. Ideally, the classification should be meaningful, and not arbitrary — it should be based on the evolutionary history of life, such that it predicts properties of newly discovered or poorly known organisms". Phylogentic Systematics I like this one because it clearly states that it should be based on the evolutionary history of life. I could go on, but if there is one thing all evolutionary biologists agree on is that phylogentics is a systematic attempt to reconstruct the evolutionary history of life. In other words...evolution is just assumed. Not demonstrated, not confirmed...simply ASSUMED! What I've never seen is a scientific reason why phylogentics could not just as easily be showing the presence of common design! Notice, nothing I've said denies the that phylogentic relationships exist. What I am saying is that there is nothing in phylogentics (or anything else in evolutionary biology for that matter) to tell us why the relationships we observe could only be the result of common ancestry and not common design. That was my point. This defintions cleary show the presupposition of evolution built in. In Logic 101, we call that assuming the consequent. Here on the street, we call it begging the question. Either way, it is a logical fallacy.DonaldM
June 5, 2013
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IMO, the evolutionary line is blurred beginning to end. Is Neanderthal a human direct ancestor, sister, cousin, or none of these? Even with DNA, it seems the answer will always remain speculative, so how can we hope to establish relationships with assumed relatives such as chimps, or with fish more than 400 MYA? In addition, Lung Fish follow the same evolutionary pattern as every other vertebrate lineage- they exclusively reduce and simplify their skeletal systems over deep time, and in particular, appendages. No semi-terrestrial fish has ever demonstrated the ability to generate truly limb-like structures from fins. More than that, if fish could generate limb-like structures, we should find multitudes of semi-terrestrial fish with fully formed limbs scattered throughout the geologic column, but not even a hint of such a pre-adaptation. Based on the only direct evidence, the fossil record, there is only one reason to believe that tetrapods descended from fish- and that reason would be faith.littlejohn
June 5, 2013
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Wow, let's take some of these points in turn. Scordova, your platonic thinking is what's preventing you from seeing the real pattern here. Fish should cluster (or fall into clades) with fish, of course. Just as mammals will fall into clades with other mammals. One of the reasons we say some of the ancestors of mammals were fish is that some fish are more closely related to land-verterbrates than they are to other fish. This is not something evolutionary biologists wish to be true, and use as an assumption in their analyses. It's the only conclusion the data allows us to draw. As I've previously said. Your platonic worldview has two major problems that explained by evolution. 1. Why do, say, lung-fish share traits with tetrapods? 2. Why is is much harder to place fossil species into the clear divisions of form that living ones? When I say evolution is a gap forming process I mean that as evolution goes on, and some lineages explore the space of possible forms independently of others and the rest go extinct, it's inevtiable that the products of that evolution will have clear gaps between them. But if we look back on the fossil record and get closer to the origin of a group, the close-relatives which are now extinct will be in full effect. So, as I've asked you before. Where is the line between man and ape? Bird and dinosaur? Fish and tetrapod? Evolution predicts it will get blurrier as we get close to the orgin, what do we see in the fossil record? KF, The reason we can discard "common design" as an explanation for the power of phylogenetics is that you arrive at the same tree when you use junk DNA and silent sites that have any effect on the organisms phenotype. DonaldM, Inferring phylogenie is a statistical process, and not surprisingly many statistical methods have been applied to the problem. You description of the book sounds very much like you don't understand how phylogenetics work (we aren't actually trying to estimate the tree that relates the ~10 billion species on earth all in one go!). Perhaps you should read a little more widely.wd400
June 5, 2013
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Jon Garvey in #24: "It is possible until proven impossible. Surely that isn’t science? To prefer one unproven option because it’s possible, when there are other equally unproven options?" No, Jon, it isn't science at all. It has the effect of making the hypothesis unfalsifiable. Darwin wrote in his famous tome that "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case." Its the words "could not possibly have..." that are the problem. It has the effect of saying, "it is possible until proven impossible", which is an impossible standard to meet. It requires the critic or doubter to run through every possible permutation...a clearly impossible task. As long as there is a conceivable Darwinian pathway, demonstrated in the lab or field or not, then Darwinism stands. For Darwinism, mere conceivability is enough. ID doesn't suffer this problem. Provide one case of CSI or an IC system that was the result of undirected natural causes, and ID is falsified. No such case exists. There have to date been NO scientific research studies that provide a detailed, testable (and potentially falsifiable) model of how undirected Darwinian mechanisms built an IC system or can account for CSI in biological systems. None. Zip zero nada. And anyone who says such studies exist, is bluffing. ID is falsifiable, and has resisted every attempt to falsify it so far. Evolution is unfalsifiable, because there is no way to falsify mere conceivability. It is completely anti-science!DonaldM
June 5, 2013
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JLAfan in #23: "I apologize for the insults but I’ve just reached a point in life where I just don’t care anymore. To me, evolution just keeps on proving my Nihilistic worldview." Actually, I suspect its the other way round - your Nihilistic worldview is "proving" evolution. On such a worldview, evolution (or something very much like it) is the only game in town. Therefore, any data at all has to be evidence for evolution, because, well, there is no alternative. None. Nihilism is firmly rooted in atheism which is completely compatible with naturalism. If Nature is a completely closed system of undirected, natural causes (because there isn't anything at all to provide direction)then evolution is it. How could there possibly be discomfirming evidence? If there was, and you saw it to be so, you'd have to begin to consider giving up the Nihilism - which, frankly, would be a very good thing for you, in the long run. I know you neither see nor accept that, but there it is.DonaldM
June 5, 2013
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JLAfan2001:
Why do you not think it’s a transitional? The article states that it is the last common ancestor of primates. What else could it be?
Did you read my post? Look at the differences between one kind and another. Add to this the fact that transitional fossils, if found, are often discarded as being nothing of the sort. Archaeopteryx was once viewed as the transitional stage between birds and reptiles; now, it's not.
In terms of evidence contra evolution, if it was evidence against it would have presented as such but it was presented as evidence for. There really is no evolutionist conspiracy out there.
I don't believe in an evolutionist conspiracy. I have posted before that I don't believe it's the evidence, but rather the interpretation of the evidence that's questionable.
Evolution is a fact because of the evidence. No other theory comes close. I know I keep saying that but I don’t see any other viable option.
Are you even examining evidence that is contradictory? If not, then that's your first step.
Can we rule out nature as a producing mechanism before we actually are able to know it wasn’t nature. You can’t look at something and say nature could never have evolved that because it’s too complex. We just don’t know. It is possible until proven impossible.
I think a better term is 'probable.' How probable is it that dinosaurs and birds are related somehow? How probable is it that the fine-tuning of the universe and Earth in particular is the product of randomness or chance?Barb
June 5, 2013
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JLA, The process of Darwinian evolution requires that physical effects be produced from information recorded in a medium. This process has strict material requirements, which evolution cannot produce (because it is dependent upon them).
You can’t look at something and say nature could never have evolved that because it’s too complex.
This claim depends on the extent to which you are willing to equivocate on the term "evolution". If evolution is to mean the acknowledged process of change by heritable information being passed down from mother cell to daughter cell, then the claim can be demonstrated to be false. If on the other hand, "evolution" can mean whatever one might wish it to mean at any given time, then the claim is both trivially true and worthless at the same time. - - - - - - p.s. the wording "it's too complex" is not useful, and is not a claim that ID generally makes.Upright BiPed
June 5, 2013
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It is possible until proven impossible. Surely that isn't science? To prefer one unproven option because it's possible, when there are other equally unproven options? You don't hang a guy because it's possible he did the murder until proved impossible: you first have to prove at least why he's more suspicious than the other possible suspects. Agnosticism is acceptable in those circumstances: conviction witrhout sufficient evidence is not.Jon Garvey
June 5, 2013
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Sal and Barb I apologize for the insults but I've just reached a point in life where I just don't care anymore. To me, evolution just keeps on proving my Nihilistic worldview. Where in the article doe it say that the geological column is suspect? I must have missed that part. Why do you not think it's a transitional? The article states that it is the last common ancestor of primates. What else could it be? In terms of evidence contra evolution, if it was evidence against it would have presented as such but it was presented as evidence for. There really is no evolutionist conspiracy out there. Evolution is a fact because of the evidence. No other theory comes close. I know I keep saying that but I don't see any other viable option. Can we rule out nature as a producing mechanism before we actually are able to know it wasn't nature. You can't look at something and say nature could never have evolved that because it's too complex. We just don't know. It is possible until proven impossible.JLAfan2001
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