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The core of Christian ethics (for those inclined to put God in the dock)

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There is such a strong tendency to project all sorts of accusations against Christian ethics that I believe it is necessary to put the indisputable core of the Christian ethical tradition on the table, to clear the air.

And so, Matt 5 – 7, ESV:

>>The Sermon on the Mount

Seeing the crowds, he [Jesus] went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.

The Beatitudes

And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that[b] they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Anger

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.[f]

Lust

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Divorce

31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Oaths

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.[g]

Retaliation

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,[h] let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Giving to the Needy

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

“Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

The Lord’s Prayer

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

“And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.[j]
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,[k]
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread,[l]
12 and forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
    but deliver us from evil.[m]

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Fasting

16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Lay Up Treasures in Heaven

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[n] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[o]

Do Not Be Anxious

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[p] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Judging Others

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

Ask, and It Will Be Given

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

The Golden Rule

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[q] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Build Your House on the Rock

24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

The Authority of Jesus

28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.

Footnotes:

  1. Matthew 5:9 Greek huioi; see Preface
  2. Matthew 5:16 Or house. 16Let your light so shine before others that
  3. Matthew 5:22 Some manuscripts insert without cause
  4. Matthew 5:22 Greek says Raca to (a term of abuse)
  5. Matthew 5:22 Greek Gehenna; also verses 29, 30
  6. Matthew 5:26 Greek kodrantes, Roman copper coin (Latin quadrans) worth about 1/64 of a denarius (which was a day’s wage for a laborer)
  7. Matthew 5:37 Or the evil one
  8. Matthew 5:40 Greek chiton, a long garment worn under the cloak next to the skin
  9. Matthew 5:47 Or brothers and sisters. In New Testament usage, depending on the context, the plural Greek word adelphoi (translated “brothers”) may refer either to brothers or to brothers and sisters
  10. Matthew 6:9 Or Let your name be kept holy, or Let your name be treated with reverence
  11. Matthew 6:10 Or Let your kingdom come, let your will be done
  12. Matthew 6:11 Or our bread for tomorrow
  13. Matthew 6:13 Or the evil one; some manuscripts add For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen
  14. Matthew 6:19 Or worm; also verse 20
  15. Matthew 6:24 Greek mammon, a Semitic word for money or possessions
  16. Matthew 6:27 Or a single cubit to his stature; a cubit was about 18 inches or 45 centimeters
  17. Matthew 7:13 Some manuscripts For the way is wide and easy
English Standard Version (ESV)The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. ESV® Text Edition: 2016. Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers.>>

This may be supplemented with Paul’s summary on the implications of neighbour love, in Rom 13:8 – 10:

>>Rom 13:Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. [ESV]>>

Similarly, the Hebraic text, Leviticus 19 expands on what neighbour-love entails, in the words of Moses:

>>Lev 19:13 “You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the Lord.

15 “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life[a] of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. [ESV]>>

It would be interesting to see how these primary, central, even shaping principles and precepts are found objectionable by the usual circles of objectors who are hostile to Christian ethics and deeply suspicious of Christians. END

Comments
There are thousands and thousands of testimonies of near death experiences dating back hundreds of years. I am sure you think that’s all just dying brain fantasy. But blind from birth people who could see during it, aren’t so easily explained away. The wishful thinking, I think is more yours, in the face of such evidence. Here’s a peer reviewed study on NDE published in The Lancet if it would be of assistance. I have my doubts. It’s on this link because the Lancet requires registration to view full article. http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htmAnimatedDust
January 7, 2018
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RV @15 commits the worn out old fallacy of attempting to discredit the system by pointing out its abuses. It doesn’t work for Christianity any more than it would for any other system.
To be fair, he is only parroting back the same arguments used against atheists and those who don’t believe that objective morals exist.
Christ claims to be God. If he is who he says he is, then his words have all the authority of the creator of the universe. (And if he isn’t, he’s a complete nut job whose words should mean nothing to anyone.)
I would agree with this statement with the caveat even complete but jobs can have something important to say. The difficulty becomes one of sifting the wheat from the chaff.
He’s pointing out the ideal, that is mostly unattainable in the fallen state of mankind as claimed in Genesis 3.
Why would God set goals for us that are unattainable? That sounds rather cruel. And I can’t rationalize this “fallen from grace” concept. He gives us the “gift” of free will and then punishes us for using it. If he wants us to do what he says, why the entire free will nonsense?
It’s why scoffers like you are allowed to scoff as you freely choose to do. That choice will be forever actualized when you die.
Calling someone a scoffer is just a tactic to denigrate those who disagree with you while not having to address the criticism that has been presented. Much like calling someone a simpering coward. Or a nihilist.
You think you’ll just rot and be nothing. The evidence (that you freely choose to scoff at) says otherwise.
You are correct. The nutrients trapped in our bodies will become available to other life forms. However, if you are talking about an afterlife, all you have supporting that is wishful thinking.
My prayer is that you will open your heart and see your folly before that day. I am not optimistic. WJM did it. Why won’t you?
I guess that some are just better at using reason and logic.JSmith
January 7, 2018
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RV @15 commits the worn out old fallacy of attempting to discredit the system by pointing out its abuses. It doesn’t work for Christianity any more than it would for any other system. Christ claims to be God. If he is who he says he is, then his words have all the authority of the creator of the universe. (And if he isn’t, he’s a complete nut job whose words should mean nothing to anyone.) He’s pointing out the ideal, that is mostly unattainable in the fallen state of mankind as claimed in Genesis 3. It’s why scoffers like you are allowed to scoff as you freely choose to do. That choice will be forever actualized when you die. You think you’ll just rot and be nothing. The evidence (that you freely choose to scoff at) says otherwise. Hell for you would be forcing you to live eternally with Him whom you so abhor. He will merely grant your wish. But what you haven’t ostensibly done the math on, is all you currently enjoy is His creation as well. None of it will be available to you upon your death. My prayer is that you will open your heart and see your folly before that day. I am not optimistic. WJM did it. Why won’t you?AnimatedDust
January 7, 2018
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PPS: Rom 13:8 - 10 is explicitly in the context of living under pagan government, actually in its capital city at a time that the Government was led by Nero. Admittedly, while he was under the tutelage of Seneca and Burrus and before he went totally out of control. So, the context of government is there. Perhaps, you need to know that in his Book of Dooms, foundational to the Common Law system, King Alfred the Great and his Witans began with Moshe at the decalogue and went on to the force of the gospels on neighbour love & also the council in Ac 15, looking also at case law type examples as paradigms, before turning to the wisdom they and their neighbours who had taken baptism had learned as made milder through the spirit of Christ. That book would do much to moderate the tendency to drive ever so much of a wedge between government in interests of the civil peace of justice and the ethics of the gospel. So would be a reflection on Heine's prophetic warning to Germany on the implications of turning from the mildness of Christ.kairosfocus
January 7, 2018
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OA, could you kindly tell us how you have responded over the past decade or so to the sort of challenge outlined in the PS to 9 above? KF PS: Again, I pointed out the issue of moral government from within in response to your earlier remarks. I also suggest that we must reckon with the difference between our approach and that of Hebrews of 2,000 years ago. We are used to systematic textbooks turning on every nuance in an analytical framework that seeks to cover every issue explicitly, cf. a typical full-fledged systematic theology, which tends to start at 3 - 4,000 pp. and at least one I know of is 12,000 pp. Introductory works are like 1,000 pp. They did not have the access to that much writing materials then, and Hebrews generally were not given to the sort of frame that we see today. So, instead our reading is in light of the how much more principle, i.e. these are case studies set up to bring us to a level of reckoning for ourselves in materially similar situations, informed by about 1,500 years of history and tradition at that point. For example, his audience would have pondered Daniel, Esther, Ezra and Nehemiah as paradigms for dealing with living a godly life in the face of pagan, ruthless overlordship. Jesus would later explicitly repudiate the stance of the Maccabees in terms of rising up in armed, organised rebellion -- Peter in Gethsemane inexpertly swinging a blade was a bit of a pale echo of the incident when the king's men came to the retreat in the hills to demand sacrifice a pig and kindly lead the town as you seem to be an elder in the gates c 168 BC. In recent years, I have come to the view that in some ways the closest literature to the ethical/ wisdom teachings of the Gospels is the Proverbs. This is the context in which I thought it helpful to show what the audience would have had in the backs of their minds when they heard, love your neighbour as yourself, from Leviticus 19, i.e. the general principle enunciated is within a tradition and actually directly quotes from Moshe. The implication is, that we need to have that broader picture in mind. The main text that is intentionally summary is actually Rom 13:8 - 10, which is quite compressed but powerful, especially the rendering that love will not wrong or harm neighbour. That draws out an inner logic, that we have the prime principle of love, which duly values and cherishes neighbour as self, and then extends to more specific principles of action [e.g. neighbourliness, public-spiritedness, purity of thought and deed to neighbour, charity, reaching out to the one in need even when s/he is an enemy or across racial/ cultural/ theological/ lifestyle etc divides], then to particular, boundary rules that show what could not possibly come from love. Where of course part of the point is that we take the whole counsel of scripture when we focus on a particular text, valuing the insights of the wise.kairosfocus
January 7, 2018
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RVB8, this is the foundational Christian teaching on ethics, acknowledged by all. Living up to it is a clear challenge, and certainly some will face the challenge why do you call me Lord but live very differently from that. I suggest that it is also necessary to recognise the need to understand in context, e.g. that Jesus implied take no worried, anxious thought for the morrow as your father clothes the lilies better than Solomon in a king's finery. This does not mean, be imprudent, it means walk in trust and an optimistic frame. The poor in spirit are precisely those who recognise their spiritual poverty and mourn their sins, such will be comforted with forgiveness and restoration of right relationship with God. Those who refuse to acknowledge their true spiritual-moral state are in a very different situation. The meek are like a well-trained horse, disciplined power, with a spirit that is well-ruled by sound understanding rather than rash and waspish, sneeringly prideful, full of their own self-estimation or aggressive. And more. BTW, the list is a spiritual self-check list. KFkairosfocus
January 7, 2018
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And is this Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, or Evangelical Christian morality? You see, the hatreds and schisims seem to put your putative universal Christian morality at nought. Should people follow these teachings? Well obviously they don't. And as for the Beatitudes, they are plainly absolute childish nonsense: "Blessed are the poor in spirit..." On what level is this profound? The poor in spirit are miserable, depressed. We now have medication for this diagnosable mental health issue. "Blessed are the meek...."? Spare me. The meek are beaten, lied to, oppressed, and set upon, through out human history, in all cultures, and in all religions. This is just cheap, bad, pop psychology. The peacemakers one is noble, because it is human in its nature. Many of these are just impossible for human's to truly feel, as is the requirement to "love your enemy..." Where, when, and whom, has ever, ever done this? There are parts of the New Testament where Jesus informs us to take no thought for tomorrow; we can't do this. He asks the impossible, and then gets angry when we fail to meet His impossible demands. That my dear friends is sadistic morality, you're welcome to it.rvb8
January 6, 2018
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As I read this again I'm concluding that although the above is obviously an excellent passage of scripture, it is not and was not intended to be a summation of Christian values. It just happens to cover a lot of them. As previously mentioned, it mentions the standards for divorce but not for marriage. It doesn't really address giving to the needy, except as a side point. The point was that it our inner motivation matters as much as our outward action. This was new information to those who had come to see the law as physical - do not murder, commit adultery, etc - but didn't realize that the external was to be a reflection of the internal. So if someone gave to the poor because it made them look good, God would view them as seeking praise, not showing love. It also doesn't directly address another core principle, that Jesus and Christians value *truth*. It matters what is true and what is not. It reflects appreciation for the scriptures, but other verses even more clearly indicate that Christians regard the scriptures as the primary source of truth. Others had grown fond of Greek philosophy and eventually elevated it alongside the Bible. But Plato, Socrates, and the like are dust on the scales. Paul advised Christians not to be caught up in their thinking. To value God's word over human philosophy and tradition is also a core Christian principle.OldAndrew
January 6, 2018
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But if we do not in significant degree so regulate ourselves, community will collapse, wreaking havoc on human thriving through that nightmare we term anarchy.
That's true, but it doesn't relate to anything I said. Anarchy is bad, and even when governments do bad things we're usually better with them than without them. Or at least most of us are unless we're the ones they come for. It doesn't narrow the gulf between the foundations of morality and what governments can and do attempt to regulate. They are miles apart.OldAndrew
January 6, 2018
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OA, kindly take a few moments to respond to the PS I added at 9 above. There is a sobering reason why the OP has the focus it does, and why as thread owner I have to ask that that focus be respected. KF PS: It is a self-evident, undeniable fact that we find ourselves governed by duties to truth, sound reasoning, fairness and more, just in argument. That is the unstated premise of your argument just now. We go far beyond that in the domain of our general lives, which depend on the principle of conscience. No, governments can only effectively legislate a bare minimum of what virtue requires of us routinely. But if we do not in significant degree so regulate ourselves, community will collapse, wreaking havoc on human thriving through that nightmare we term anarchy. Government that respects liberty must rest on a people who freely respond to the moral law within. As well you know.kairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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When you say "moral government" are you referring to actual governments? There are no governments on earth founded on the principles above. How can I make such an absolute statement? Because Jesus stated that the two most important commandments, which did not end with the law of Moses, were that men must love God and love one another. A government founded on the morals proscribed in the Bible must institute those laws. There's no way around it. Of course, it is impossible for a nation to impose or enforce those laws. How can any judge know whether a man loves or hates another in his heart? Not only can no government institute or enforce such laws, but none claim to. Each state in the U.S., for example, prohibits murder. But they cannot require that a person love God. It's explicitly forbidden. You can draw a pentagram and pray to Satan as long as you don't kill anyone. (And if you could command individuals to love God, according to which religion would they do so?) This is why Christians were instructed on how to live under the governments in the various lands in which they lived, not to form their nations. A literal nation with physical boundaries governed by God had already existed, and that point it was no more. The types of "morals" imposed by governments are based on conscience, not on the Bible. One can attribute those morals to God as the source of conscience, and some may at times be informed by some knowledge of his principles. But otherwise governments are "moral" in the same sense that individuals are moral. I am not saying that the United States or any other nation should attempt to pass laws requiring love of God and neighbor. That would be absurd as well as unenforceable. There's also nothing in the Bible suggesting that Christians should attempt to enforce their beliefs on others. But their inability lack of intention on the part of any government to enact or enforce the fundamental principles of absolute morality is proof that no government is or will be based on such absolute morality. Not even close.OldAndrew
January 6, 2018
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JS, FTR, at minimum, you have used a very loaded wrong word and have turned it into a pivot to studiously sideline and dismiss. I suggest, again, that here we deal with matters philosophical, of enormous complexity and difficulty as even the above rapidly reveals, much less what has been happening in several parallel threads. Where, every comment or suggestion has to bear in mind how many lie in wait to pounce. I assure you, that people like WJM and SB, GP, UB, PaV, ES etc have serious, heavy-lifting background brought to bear. No one in his right mind would set out to argue the sort of case being argued here, who has not got some serious background. For, this is very much a case of swimming against a surging tide. Unfortunately, a tide driven by a ruinous march of folly. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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OA, We are of course spinning off on a handy tangent here that distracts from the focal and vital issue for this thread. I will note that Jesus was not the only one empowered to make moral judgements, there is a principle of the results that flow from the heart as waters from a spring. No-one has set out to scorn good actions, but there has been a pretty serious issue that the foundations of moral government are under challenge, with open season being declared on Christians. In that context, Gospel-based ethics have been twisted into a demonised strawman caricature. The OP above is therefore on the table as a corrective from undeniable fact. This is the unquestionable core, do ye tell us, then wherein ye find it wanting as a frame for decency. The silence on that point, set side by side with the pouncing on by ever-watching objectors over years of observation, is telling. KF PS: Let me cite a highly relevant case, by way of additional clarification. This is what I am talking about:
Dawkins, The God Delusion: “The God of the Old Testament [= The God of Israel . . . ] is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully . . . ” [Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, Great Britain: Bantam Press, 2006, 31.]
That sort of calculatedly tainting accusation cannot be left to stand unanswered. What say you to it, and why? Can you show us your stout defence over the past twelve years since this was published in a highly touted bestseller that helped spark the Internet Atheist movement? (Cf. here.)kairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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OA
How does this square with a post calling out someone by name to insult him, and then in comments of that very same post demanding an apology because he said something unkind?
To be fair to KF, he was not the one who demanded an apology. That came from the UD administrator. And, to be fair again, I should have chosen my words more carefully when describing the very difficult to read nature of KF’s writing style. I never intended to infer that he was stupid.JSmith
January 6, 2018
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Jesus could get away with a lot more because he could speak with certainty about the inner nature of others. That's why he could call people vipers. Another interesting parable is that of the neighborly Samaritan. Samaritans were regarded as lesser people by many Jews of that time. As a side effect of the parable Jesus pointed out that the "unbeliever" who did something good because of his conscience was not to be scorned. The point wasn't that the specifics of right and wrong don't matter, because of course they do. But if anyone used their righteousness as a platform to look down on others were completely missing the point of the Law and Jesus' own teachings. We can't look down on someone else without committing the sin of pride ourselves. Morals are for us to live by, not an entitlement to judge others.OldAndrew
January 6, 2018
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OA, Marriage is not in the sermon save by implication; it is implicit in the general support for the hebraic law -- and saying something is what it manifestly is not and forcing it through by raw state power under false colour of law will violate several relevant principles. Jesus did speak to marriage elsewhere in Mt 19:1 - 6, with words that are yet highly relevant. Looks like in context, adultery was the more relevant problem in that life-setting. I add, I am not comfortable with the thread you speak of and spoke to general tone there long since; though, we must also reckon with looks like two cleansings of a temple and the "Go, tell that fox . . ." remark; important but not part of the sermon. In that thread, I have had to deal with the use of a synonym for stupidity used to evade dealing with substantial issues. I did have to cite a dictionary. The above remains core, regardless of our own struggles or even outright failings. KFkairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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Don't forget marriage. It would be remiss to include the standard for divorce when describing Christian values and omit the standards for marriage. It wasn't explicitly stated in these verses, but that wasn't exactly the intent of this sermon. Jesus was stating the laws they knew and helping them to see the underlying principles they might have missed. This particular audience didn't need any help with who should be allowed to marry whom.
and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them
But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
How does this square with a post calling out someone by name to insult him, and then in comments of that very same post demanding an apology because he said something unkind? Perhaps Jesus would suggest that apologies are a good idea all around.OldAndrew
January 6, 2018
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Wow. What a beautiful and informative conspectus.Axel
January 6, 2018
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Sadly, yes.kairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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Those who condemn Christianity (and God) aren't going to be swayed by truth.tribune7
January 6, 2018
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The core of Christian ethics (for those inclined to put God in the dock)kairosfocus
January 6, 2018
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