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The Darwinist and the computer programmer

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Actually the available hardware computing power is enormous and the software technologies are very sophisticated and powerful. Given the above fortunate situation about the technological advance of informatics, many phenomena and processes in many fields are successfully computer simulated. Routinely airplane pilots and astronauts learn their job in dedicated simulators, and complex processes, as weather forecast and atomic explosions, are simulated on computers.

Question: why Darwinian unguided evolution hasn’t been yet computer simulated? I wonder why evolutionists haven’t yet simulated it, so to prove us that Darwinism works. As known, experiments of evolution in vitro failed, then maybe experiments in silico would work. Why don’t evolutionists show us in a computer the development of new biological complexity by simulating random mutations and selection on self-reproductive digital organisms?

Here I try my answer, then you are free to provide your own. I will do it in the format of an imaginary dialogue. Let’s suppose a Darwinist who meets a computer programmer to ask him to develop a simulation program of Darwinian evolution.

Programmer (P): “What’s your problem? I can program whatever you want. What we need is a detailed description of the phenomenon and a correct model of the process.”

Darwinist (D): “I would like to simulate biological evolution, the process thanks to which a species transforms into another species, by means of random mutations and natural selection”.

P: “Well, I think first off we need a model of an organism and its development, or something like that”.

D: “We have a genotype (containing the heritable information, the genome, the DNA) and its product, the phenotype”.

P: “I read that the DNA is a long sequence of four symbols. We could model it as a long string of characters. String of characters and operations on them are easily manipulable by computers. Just an idea.”

D: “Good, it is indeed unguided variations on DNA that drive evolution.”

P: “Ok, if you want, after modeling the genome, we can perform on the DNA character strings any unguided variation: permutations, substitutions, translations, insertions, deletions, import, export, pattern scrambling, whatever you like. We have very good pseudo random generators to simulate these operations”.

D: “Cool. Indeed those unintelligent variations produce the transformations of the phenotypes, what is called ‘evolution'”.

P: “Hmm… wait, just a question. There is a thing not perfectly clear to me. To write the instructions to output the phenotype from the genotype I need also a complete model of the phenotype and a detailed description of how it arises from the genotype. You see, the computer wants anything in the format of sequences composed of 0s and 1s, it is not enough to send it generic commands”.

D: “The genotype determines the genes and in turn the genes are receipts for proteins. The organisms basically are made of proteins.”

P: “Organisms are made of proteins, like buildings are made of bricks, aren’t they? It seems to me that these definitions are an extremely simplistic and reductive way of considering organisms and buildings. Both are not simple “containers” of proteins/bricks, as potatoes in a bag. It seems to me it is entirely missing the process of construction from proteins to organisms (while it is perfectly known in the case of bricks and buildings)”.

D: “To be honest I don’t know in detail how the phenotype comes from the genotype… actually no one on earth do.”

P: “Really? You know, in my damn job one has to perfectly specify all instructions and data in a formal language that doesn’t allow equivocations. It is somewhat mathematical. If you are unable to perfectly specify the phenotypic model and the process driving the construction of the phenotype from the genotype, I cannot program the simulation of evolution for you. What we would eventually obtain would be less than a toy and would have no explicative value compared to the biological reality (by the way I assure you that, differently, all computer games are serious works, where everything is perfectly specified and programmed, at the bit and pixel level, believe me)… Sorry… I don’t want to be indiscreet, but how can Darwinists claim with such certainty that variations in a process produce certain results if they know little of the models and nothing of the process involved in the first place?

D: _no-answer_

The above short dialogue between the Darwinist and the programmer shows us a thing. There are two worlds: the world of informatics where all instructions/data must be perfectly specified and have to pass checks, otherwise the business doesn’t work; and the world of the just so stories, where the statements may be equivocal and even inconsistent and have to pass no check. Evolutionism pertains to the latter kind of worlds. As the programmer politely noted, evolutionism pretends to claim that variations on a process produce specific results when the process itself is unknown and unspecified. In other words, why – to put it a la Sermonti – from the genome of a fly arises a fly, not a horse? If they cannot answer that basic question, how can they claim that unguided variations on genomes produced even the 500 million past and living species?

This fundamental incoherence and simplism can “work” in the Darwin’s world, but stops at the outset in the logic world of informatics. This is one of the reasons why a convincing and complete computer simulation of Darwinian evolution has not yet been performed far now, despite Darwinians would like to get it.

P.S. Thanks to Mung for the suggestion about the topic of this post.

Comments
Just imagine junk DNA as packets of evolutionary potential, just waiting to be activated or utilized when the time is right. ... and accruing mutations (which are univerally bad news according to many IDists...) while they wait.wd400
November 5, 2013
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wd-400 #27 If I am not mistaken, the immune systems of mammals and other animals use programmed DNA rearrangements to produce anti-bodies. This evidence might help you imagine how intrinsic genetic manipulation is likely exploited by other bio-systems. More than that, how many other organelles, cells, tissues, organs, and body plan structures and/or components, would you consider to be composed of large volumes of waste, and why should we expect the genome to break the pattern of precise optimization of resources that we seem to find at every other level of organization? Just imagine junk DNA as packets of evolutionary potential, just waiting to be activated or utilized when the time is right.littlejohn
November 5, 2013
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wd400 makes a valid point that organisms are subject to various mechanisms that do not depend directly on the classical RM+NS mechanism (drift, for example). And I agree that there are good mathematical models that can be brought to bear relating to population genetics. However, RM+NS is still considered to be the primary avenue of biological change. More importantly, regardless of whether something results from, say, drift, the original source of the biological novelty is still allegedly what essentially amounts to a random event. So, yes, the NS part of the equation is problematic because it may not function perfectly to preserve or to discard. But the much worse problem is the RM part. Does it really have the capacity to create what we see around us? It doesn't matter whether we are relying on natural selection, neutral mutations, genetic drift, sexual selection or otherwise to preserve something. The real question for evolutionists is: What is your evidence that these random changes can do all this work of creating? That is what needs to be modeled. It can't be modeled in even semi-comprehensive detail, because too many particulars are still unknown. But I do agree it can be modeled perhaps in a simple fashion (such as that suggested by commenters above). And it is found utterly wanting.Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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(This is a great thread because it targets the biggest vulnerability of the theory of evolution, in my opinion.) drc466 @29, you hit the nail on the head. The very thing that supposedly drives innovation in Darwinian evolution is what kills it dead before it gets a chance to do anything. It never ceases to amaze me how some of the most brilliant people on earth actually believes in this cr@p. It's either a case of mass stupidity or mass cowardice or both. Worse, the stupidity is blatant and in your face. The same can be said about materialism.Mapou
November 5, 2013
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Actually, Darwinism would not be that difficult to simulate in a computer program, but no Darwinist will ever do it because it will show what they don't want to see - mutations kill. To simulate Darwinism, you would simply write a program that has all of the elements of the simplest life form possible - self-contained code to replicate, metabolise, code to interpret that code, code to execute its own code for replication/interpretation, etc. Then place it in a virtual machine where that code competes against other copies of that same code for resources needed to continue existence. Then you would allow purely random modifications of the code itself during replication, that allow any type of mutation Darwinists believe exists - deletions, modifications, duplications, etc. No direction allowed - the code or vm must not have any code that arbitrarily picks "winning" or "losing" code, beyond the code's ability to continue competing for resources. And there must not be any restrictions on the types of mutations that can occur - any change to any section of the code must be allowed. Then set it loose and see what happens. Any programmer knows what will happen when you allow mutations (aka errors) randomly to occur in code. The code breaks. Of course, a realistic simulation would be much more stringent. You'd have to create a vm with resources, and then randomly inject bits and bytes and wait for a piece of self-replicating code to magically appear. Yeah, right.drc466
November 5, 2013
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Scientists go deeper into DNA (Video report) (Junk No More) - Sept. 2012 http://bcove.me/26vjjl5a Quote from preceding video: “It's just been an incredible surprise for me. You say, ‘I bet it's going to be complicated', and then you are faced with it and you are like 'My God, that is mind blowing.'” Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE 2012 ENCODE: Encyclopedia Of DNA Elements - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3V2thsJ1Wc Quote from preceding video: "It's very hard to get over the density of information (in the genome),,, The data says its like a jungle of stuff out there. There are things we thought we understood and yet it is much, much, more complex. And then (there are) places of the genome we thought were completely silent and (yet) they're (now found to be) teeming with life, teeming with things going on. We still really don't understand that." Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE (ENCODE) An integrated encyclopedia of DNA elements in the human genome - September 2012 Excerpt: The human genome encodes the blueprint of life, but the function of the vast majority of its nearly three billion bases is unknown. The Encyclopedia of DNA Elements (ENCODE) project has systematically mapped regions of transcription, transcription factor association, chromatin structure and histone modification. These data enabled us to assign biochemical functions for 80% of the genome, in particular outside of the well-studied protein-coding regions. Many discovered candidate regulatory elements are physically associated with one another and with expressed genes, providing new insights into the mechanisms of gene regulation. Per Nature Junk No More: ENCODE Project Nature Paper Finds "Biochemical Functions for 80% of the Genome" - Casey Luskin - September 5, 2012 Excerpt: The Discover Magazine article further explains that the rest of the 20% of the genome is likely to have function as well: "And what's in the remaining 20 percent? Possibly not junk either, according to Ewan Birney, the project's Lead Analysis Coordinator and self-described "cat-herder-in-chief". He explains that ENCODE only (!) looked at 147 types of cells, and the human body has a few thousand. A given part of the genome might control a gene in one cell type, but not others. If every cell is included, functions may emerge for the phantom proportion. "It's likely that 80 percent will go to 100 percent," says Birney. "We don't really have any large chunks of redundant DNA. This metaphor of junk isn't that useful."" We will have more to say about this blockbuster paper from ENCODE researchers in coming days, but for now, let's simply observe that it provides a stunning vindication of the prediction of intelligent design that the genome will turn out to have mass functionality for so-called "junk" DNA. ENCODE researchers use words like "surprising" or "unprecedented." They talk about of how "human DNA is a lot more active than we expected." But under an intelligent design paradigm, none of this is surprising. In fact, it is exactly what ID predicted. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/junk_no_more_en_1064001.html ENCODE: The Encyclopedia of DNA Elements (Interviews with members of the ENCODE Project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsV_sEDSE2o Quotes from preceding video: "Very little of our genomes are junk. 80% of our genome is engaged in at least one biochemical activity. For a large fraction of our genome, not now 5%, but 80% of the genome, we can (now) say that we know that it does something." "This metaphor about Junk DNA has become very entrenched. It has been entrenched publicly and entrenched scientifically. And ENCODE totally challenges that. We just don't have big, blank, boring, bits of the genome. All the genome is alive at some level." "There are about 2000 DNA binding proteins in the genome. We looked at about 100 of those, 115 of those, so there is a long way to go yet, there is a lot more to study." Here is a recent paper (July 2013) that defends the Sept. 2012 ENCODE findings, of pervasive functionality across the genome, from Darwinian attempts to discredit the findings: The extent of functionality in the human genome - John S Mattick and Marcel E Dinger – July 2013 Excerpt of abstract: Finally, we suggest that resistance to these (ENCODE) findings is further motivated in some quarters by the use of the dubious concept of junk DNA as evidence against intelligent design. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186%2F1877-6566-7-2/fulltext.html What Is The Genome? It's Certainly Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 Multidimensional Genome – Dr. Robert Carter – video (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905048 Bits of Mystery DNA, Far From ‘Junk,’ Play Crucial Role - September 2012 Excerpt: The system, though, is stunningly complex, with many redundancies. Just the idea of so many switches was almost incomprehensible, Dr. Bernstein said. There also is a sort of DNA wiring system that is almost inconceivably intricate. “It is like opening a wiring closet and seeing a hairball of wires,” said Mark Gerstein, an Encode researcher from Yale. “We tried to unravel this hairball and make it interpretable.” There is another sort of hairball as well: the complex three-dimensional structure of DNA. Human DNA is such a long strand — about 10 feet of DNA stuffed into a microscopic nucleus of a cell — that it fits only because it is tightly wound and coiled around itself. When they looked at the three-dimensional structure — the hairball — Encode researchers discovered that small segments of dark-matter DNA are often quite close to genes they control. In the past, when they analyzed only the uncoiled length of DNA, those controlling regions appeared to be far from the genes they affect. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/science/far-from-junk-dna-dark-matter-proves-crucial-to-health.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all DNA - Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis - video https://vimeo.com/33882804
The only place Junk DNA really exists is in the imagination of neo-Darwinists!bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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Scientists go deeper into DNA (Video report) (Junk No More) - Sept. 2012 http://bcove.me/26vjjl5a Quote from preceding video: “It's just been an incredible surprise for me. You say, ‘I bet it's going to be complicated', and then you are faced with it and you are like 'My God, that is mind blowing.'” Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE ENCODE: Encyclopedia Of DNA Elements - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3V2thsJ1Wc Quote from preceding video: "It's very hard to get over the density of information (in the genome),,, The data says its like a jungle of stuff out there. There are things we thought we understood and yet it is much, much, more complex. And then (there are) places of the genome we thought were completely silent and (yet) they're (now found to be) teeming with life, teeming with things going on. We still really don't understand that." Ewan Birney - senior scientist - ENCODE (ENCODE) An integrated encyclopedia of DNA elements in the human genome - September 2012 Excerpt: The human genome encodes the blueprint of life, but the function of the vast majority of its nearly three billion bases is unknown. The Encyclopedia of DNA Elements (ENCODE) project has systematically mapped regions of transcription, transcription factor association, chromatin structure and histone modification. These data enabled us to assign biochemical functions for 80% of the genome, in particular outside of the well-studied protein-coding regions. Many discovered candidate regulatory elements are physically associated with one another and with expressed genes, providing new insights into the mechanisms of gene regulation. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7414/full/nature11247.html Junk No More: ENCODE Project Nature Paper Finds "Biochemical Functions for 80% of the Genome" - Casey Luskin - September 5, 2012 Excerpt: The Discover Magazine article further explains that the rest of the 20% of the genome is likely to have function as well: "And what's in the remaining 20 percent? Possibly not junk either, according to Ewan Birney, the project's Lead Analysis Coordinator and self-described "cat-herder-in-chief". He explains that ENCODE only (!) looked at 147 types of cells, and the human body has a few thousand. A given part of the genome might control a gene in one cell type, but not others. If every cell is included, functions may emerge for the phantom proportion. "It's likely that 80 percent will go to 100 percent," says Birney. "We don't really have any large chunks of redundant DNA. This metaphor of junk isn't that useful."" We will have more to say about this blockbuster paper from ENCODE researchers in coming days, but for now, let's simply observe that it provides a stunning vindication of the prediction of intelligent design that the genome will turn out to have mass functionality for so-called "junk" DNA. ENCODE researchers use words like "surprising" or "unprecedented." They talk about of how "human DNA is a lot more active than we expected." But under an intelligent design paradigm, none of this is surprising. In fact, it is exactly what ID predicted. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/09/junk_no_more_en_1064001.html ENCODE: The Encyclopedia of DNA Elements (Interviews with members of the ENCODE Project) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsV_sEDSE2o Quotes from preceding video: "Very little of our genomes are junk. 80% of our genome is engaged in at least one biochemical activity. For a large fraction of our genome, not now 5%, but 80% of the genome, we can (now) say that we know that it does something." "This metaphor about Junk DNA has become very entrenched. It has been entrenched publicly and entrenched scientifically. And ENCODE totally challenges that. We just don't have big, blank, boring, bits of the genome. All the genome is alive at some level." "There are about 2000 DNA binding proteins in the genome. We looked at about 100 of those, 115 of those, so there is a long way to go yet, there is a lot more to study." Here is a recent paper (July 2013) that defends the Sept. 2012 ENCODE findings, of pervasive functionality across the genome, from Darwinian attempts to discredit the findings: The extent of functionality in the human genome - John S Mattick and Marcel E Dinger – July 2013 Excerpt of abstract: Finally, we suggest that resistance to these (ENCODE) findings is further motivated in some quarters by the use of the dubious concept of junk DNA as evidence against intelligent design. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186%2F1877-6566-7-2/fulltext.html What Is The Genome? It's Certainly Not Junk! - Dr. Robert Carter - video - (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905583 Multidimensional Genome – Dr. Robert Carter – video (Notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/w/8905048 Bits of Mystery DNA, Far From ‘Junk,’ Play Crucial Role - September 2012 Excerpt: The system, though, is stunningly complex, with many redundancies. Just the idea of so many switches was almost incomprehensible, Dr. Bernstein said. There also is a sort of DNA wiring system that is almost inconceivably intricate. “It is like opening a wiring closet and seeing a hairball of wires,” said Mark Gerstein, an Encode researcher from Yale. “We tried to unravel this hairball and make it interpretable.” There is another sort of hairball as well: the complex three-dimensional structure of DNA. Human DNA is such a long strand — about 10 feet of DNA stuffed into a microscopic nucleus of a cell — that it fits only because it is tightly wound and coiled around itself. When they looked at the three-dimensional structure — the hairball — Encode researchers discovered that small segments of dark-matter DNA are often quite close to genes they control. In the past, when they analyzed only the uncoiled length of DNA, those controlling regions appeared to be far from the genes they affect. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/science/far-from-junk-dna-dark-matter-proves-crucial-to-health.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all DNA - Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis - video https://vimeo.com/33882804
The only place Junk DNA really exists is in the imagination of neo-Darwinists!bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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Littlejohn, It's always possible to make a post-hoc justification to rescue a favorred hypothesis - but (James Shapiro notwithstanding) there is no evidence for this, and it's very hard to imagine how something like this could possibly work.wd400
November 5, 2013
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wd400 You seem to imply that non-functional DNA is useless junk. If so, is it not possible that 'junk DNA' is being stored in a dormant state for a reason? Perhaps, like a savings account, it is being keep in reserve in order to preserve and assure greater evolutionary potential. Since we now know that organisms can manipulate their DNA arrangements to adapt, etc., (a la James Shapiro), it seems quite premature to jump to the conclusion that nonfunctional DNA is the accumulation of waste.littlejohn
November 5, 2013
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Still seems to me there should be some way to test the most basic idea of NS + RM to develop new information in the form of novel complex functions. I don't think real biochemistry needs to be simulated to disprove Darwinism. Just one of the most important features of the simulation needs to ensure the simulation is sterile of programmers intelligence - i.e. keeping outside information from leaking into the simulation.JGuy
November 5, 2013
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Another problem with the OP is that it attempts to turn a strength of programming and simulation (abstraction) into a weakness in evolutionary theory. There's no justification for this. It's like saying we can't take every element of an organism's ecology and put it into a computer therefore evolution is false. It just doesn't follow. That said, I appreciate the questions raised in the OP, but I suggest that they need some refinement.Mung
November 5, 2013
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Mung @ 19 Are you primarily referring to or considering the statement in the OP: "If they cannot answer that basic question, how can they claim that unguided variations on genomes produced even the 500 million past and living species?"JGuy
November 5, 2013
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Easy. It’s not under selection, that’s what allows it to accumulate. Right... so that's non-Darwinian because it's something that happens without selection. It's also an idea that allows us to make predictions about what future data will like. We know, for instance, that selection is stronger when effective population sizes are larger. In this way, you might predict that, all else being equal, organisms with large effective population sizes will smaller (less junk-ridden) genomes for instance...wd400
November 5, 2013
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Think of the programing language as the genotype and the program itself as the phenotype. How one gets from the genotype to the phenotype is termed development. In programming, changes to the programming language may or may not have an effect on a program. e.g., for compiled languages, the program may or may not require re-compilation. Consider a theory of how programs change over time. Imagine such a theory that focuses only on the programs and the programming languages. That's neo-Darwinism.Mung
November 5, 2013
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wd400:
Try and create a Darwinian (i.e. selection-focused) explanation for junk DNA..
Easy. It's not under selection, that's what allows it to accumulate. If it doesn't accumulate, it's evolution. If it does accumulate, it's evolution. Ain't modern evolutionary theory grand!Mung
November 5, 2013
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One problem with the OP is that it creates a straw-man version of neo-Darwinism. In neo-Darwinism, how one gets from genotype to phenotype is irrelevant. The Changing Role of the Embryo in Evolutionary Thought: Roots of Evo-DevoMung
November 5, 2013
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Against my better judgement, one last comment. Try and create a Darwinian (i.e. selection-focused) explanation for junk DNA..wd400
November 5, 2013
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"the preponderance of junk DNA in many eukaryote genomes" LOL, yep your a Darwinist alright! You may deny it trying to save face, but only a Darwinist would ever claim that!bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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There's no great revelation in that statement. Like many evolutionary biologists, I tend to emphasizing non-Darwinian mechanisms (drift, sub-functionalisation etc) because there are large amounts of data that purely Darwinian evolution can't explain (notably, the preponderance of junk DNA in many eukaryote genomes , a comment which I'm sure will set you off on other round of link spam...)wd400
November 5, 2013
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"I’m not a Darwinist." Really??? Well blow me over with a feather, All of the sudden I've lost all interest in anything else in this thread, please do tell??bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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Try and think things through... For the record I'm not a Darwinist. Evolutionary biology doesn't explain how changes in genotype and environment manifest themselves in phenotype (that's the domain of developmental biology and quantitative genetics). It does require that some genetic changes alter the phenotype of their carriers It is obviously true that some genetic changes alter the phenotype of their carriers.wd400
November 5, 2013
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And wd400, since Darwinism doesn't, and IMHO can't possibly, explain how 'changes in genotype and environment manifest themselves in phenotype', you support Darwinism why exactly?bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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wd400 claims that Darwinism is a,,, Actually, I didn't.wd400
November 5, 2013
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wd400 claims that Darwinism is a,,,
a science that explains the way changes in genotype and environment manifest themselves in phenotype
Yet the actual fact of the matter is that,,
With a Startling Candor, Oxford Scientist Admits a Gaping Hole in Evolutionary Theory - November 2011 Excerpt: As of now, we have no good theory of how to read [genetic] networks, how to model them mathematically or how one network meshes with another; worse, we have no obvious experimental lines of investigation for studying these areas. There is a great deal for systems biology to do in order to produce a full explanation of how genotypes generate phenotypes,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/with_a_startling_candor_oxford052821.html Not Junk After All—Conclusion - August 29, 2013 Excerpt: Many scientists have pointed out that the relationship between the genome and the organism — the genotype-phenotype mapping — cannot be reduced to a genetic program encoded in DNA sequences. Atlan and Koppel wrote in 1990 that advances in artificial intelligence showed that cellular operations are not controlled by a linear sequence of instructions in DNA but by a “distributed multilayer network” [150]. According to Denton and his co-workers, protein folding appears to involve formal causes that transcend material mechanisms [151], and according to Sternberg this is even more evident at higher levels of the genotype-phenotype mapping [152]. https://uncommondescent.com/junk-dna/open-mike-cornell-obi-conference-chapter-11-not-junk-after-all-conclusion/ The next evolutionary synthesis: Jonathan BL Bard (2011) Excerpt: We now know that there are at least 50 possible functions that DNA sequences can fulfill [8], that the networks for traits require many proteins and that they allow for considerable redundancy [9]. The reality is that the evolutionary synthesis says nothing about any of this; for all its claim of being grounded in DNA and mutation, it is actually a theory based on phenotypic traits. This is not to say that the evolutionary synthesis is wrong, but that it is inadequate – it is really only half a theory! http://www.biosignaling.com/content/pdf/1478-811X-9-30.pdf The Fairyland of Evolutionary Modeling - May 7, 2013 Excerpt: Salazar-Ciudad and Marín-Riera have shown that not only are suboptimal dead ends an evolutionary possibility, but they are also exceedingly likely to occur in real, developmentally complex structures when fitness is determined by the exact form of the phenotype. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/05/the_fantasy_wor071901.html Response to John Wise - October 2010 Excerpt: A technique called "saturation mutagenesis"1,2 has been used to produce every possible developmental mutation in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster),3,4,5 roundworms (Caenorhabditis elegans),6,7 and zebrafish (Danio rerio),8,9,10 and the same technique is now being applied to mice (Mus musculus).11,12 None of the evidence from these and numerous other studies of developmental mutations supports the neo-Darwinian dogma that DNA mutations can lead to new organs or body plans--because none of the observed developmental mutations benefit the organism. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/10/response_to_john_wise038811.html
bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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So, your position is that a science that explains the way changes in genotype and environment manifest themselves in phenotype (developmental biology and quant. genetics) but can't model that process is fine. Likewise, a science that explains the way organisms interact with each other and abiotic parts of their environment but can't model that process in detail (ecology) is fine too. But in order build a theory that includes the results of developmental biology, quant. genetics and ecology then we need to model those processes down to the individual atoms? And you call "Darwinism" absurd and contradictory?wd400
November 5, 2013
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No, developmental biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, physiology and ecology shouldn't be discarded also if not computer simulated, insofar as they provide descriptions of facts, sure data and eventually sensible hypothesis related to facts/data. The case of Darwinism is fully different, because it is only an hypothesis, not a fact. Worse yet, Darwinism is an absurd and contradictory hypothesis, contrary to all principles and all evidences.niwrad
November 5, 2013
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wd400
Dr. David Berlinski: Accounting for Variations - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2GkDkimkE "The computer is not going to generate anything realistic if it uses Darwinian mechanisms." David Berlinski
bornagain77
November 5, 2013
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I suppose developmental biology, molecualr biology, biochemistry, physiology and ecology should all be discarded since the processes underlying these sciences can't be simulated at the same level of detail you require? BTW, what ever happened to that blogger here who's every post was an ode to how awesome the physics simulation he used was?wd400
November 5, 2013
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JGuy @3:
Why not build a semi-complex replicating program that copies itself, and place it in a virtual environment where it has access to program bits, bytes or whatever…and competes with others. . . . It seems to me, that this would at least test the creative power of RM + NS.
Yeah, this is what Darwinists have claimed to do with evolutionary algorithms like Avida. Unfortunately, the devil is in the details and when you have a very easily-achievable result with the digital "organism" being carefully lead up the back side of Mount Improbable, it is not particularly surprising that you get some directional change, which is touted by the Wizard of Oz as confirmation of the theory. The problem with things like Avida is that they don't simulate anything in the real world, so we can have digital organisms "mutating" and "developing" all we want and it teaches us precisely nothing about whether evolution would work in real biology. The only way to model evolution is to have a very good handle on what is involved. And no-one has anything even approaching a solid idea as to what is required to turn creature A into creature B. Furthermore, what is to be simulated is even questionable. For example, no-one knows whether fiddling with DNA is even in principle capable of forming a new creature (apart from minor allele traits between members of the same species). So even if such an event were simulated in silico (which we know wouldn't work, but let's assume for purposes of discussion that it did), it still would not confirm that it is relevant to actual organisms in the real world. The difference between modeling evolution and, say, the flight simulator training niwrad refers to is that in the latter case we have a very good sense as to the factors involved and how they interact with each other (aerodynamics, thrust, weigh-ratios, wind speed, vectors, and so on); we have precise mathematical calculations and well-defined parameters. We have nothing even approaching this in evolutionary theory. As of 2013 the idea continues to consist of little more than vague generalizations and hypothetical assertions. There is no comprehensive list of parameters; not even close. There are no well-defined equations that state that if x occurs, y will be the outcome. All we have is a blanket assertion, void of all relevant details, that if something occurs then something else will result. ----- Now, having said all that, I do agree that there is great value in using computer models to deal with very specific aspects of biological interactions. But unfortunately it is practically impossible, given our current state of knowledge and technology, to adequately model biological systems. And even if the simulation didn't work, the Darwinist would simply say "Well, all that shows is that it didn't happen with this particular set of parameters. It must have happened some other way."Eric Anderson
November 5, 2013
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Darwinist have tried and tried. Dr.Dawkins thought he had a great "METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL" program and even sold it to unwitting followers for $10 ! When nothing worked, they declared 'Evolution has no goal' and are still complaining that probability is being misused by IDist. When there is no goal, no process, no system to follow, there can be no model. The closest that can model aimless evolution is stochastic process, but what do you model when there is no aim?selvaRajan
November 5, 2013
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