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The End is Nye

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Jerry Coyne weighs in. He, of course, thinks Bill Nye shouldn’t debate Ken Ham.

Further to “Live streaming put on hold” for science celeb Bill Nye vs. creation star Ken Ham debate (immediate sellout crowd), advice continues to stream in to Nye not to debate Ham. The latest is from Jerry “Why Evolution Is True” Coyne:

Further, even in this friendly interview Nye doesn’t respond well to the criticism that he’s not really an expert on evolution, nor does he seem especially eloquent.

I suspect that Ham, in a William Lane Craig-like way, is preparing furiously for this debate, and I pray* that Nye is doing likewise. That’s the only way he’ll survive.

With cheerleading like Coyne’s, Nye wouldn’t be worse off with a creationist manager throwing him off his game.

Some readers have suggested that this debate is a very good thing, but I simply can’t agree. I suspect that such optimism stems from their respect for Nye’s accomplishment as a science presenter, and his demeanor as a nice guy. But Nye never had Ken Ham on his children’s show.

And I can’t shake the feeling that part of Nye’s motivation is to stay in the media spotlight. But doing it this way is a terrible mistake.

*I am praying metaphorically

Nye doesn’t need a metaphorical win, he needs an actual one. So does Ham.

Unclear why Coyne can’t “shake the feeling that part of Nye’s motivation is to stay in the media spotlight.” Nye makes a living in the media. He actually sought out this battle by trashing creationist parents. And unlike Coyne, he doesn’t have tenure.

See also: Evolutionary creation vs. young Earth creation at Scopes Trial courthouse?

Comments
Joe continues,
Your quote said we can use animals for food. Humans are animals. Therefor, according to the Bible it is OK to eat humans.
Humans are higher than animals according to the book of Genesis.
16 lbs wheat to produce 1 lb of beef- USDA It takes 435 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of beef- Natl Cattlemen’s assoc (meaning it is a low estimate) 35 kilocalories of fossil fuel to produce 1 kilocalorie of beef- Cornell Univ
Okay. And...? If you want to eat a vegetarian or vegan diet, then do so. But don't get holier than thou about it. Eating meat is not wrong according to the Bible. Please learn to deal with this fact.
Then there is mad cow’s disease- pig waste pits. Did you know that there is an acceptable level of fecies in your meat? Yum yum…
And did you know that there's acceptable levels of pesticides and GMOs in your vegetables? Ask Monsanto!Barb
January 16, 2014
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Barb- references: 16 lbs wheat to produce 1 lb of beef- USDA It takes 435 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of beef- Natl Cattlemen's assoc (meaning it is a low estimate) 35 kilocalories of fossil fuel to produce 1 kilocalorie of beef- Cornell Univ Then there is mad cow's disease- pig waste pits. Did you know that there is an acceptable level of fecies in your meat? Yum yum...Joe
January 14, 2014
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Barb:
What part of the scripture I quoted did you not understand?
Your quote said we can use animals for food. Humans are animals. Therefor, according to the Bible it is OK to eat humans. Nice job.Joe
January 14, 2014
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Joe again:
No, that is a fact. So living life as God originally intended isn’t a good thing, then…
And your references to back up that fact are...where? Living life as God intended is apparently not what you think it is. I quoted scripture to prove my point. Debate that if you wish.Barb
January 14, 2014
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Joe @ 56:
Barb- Humans are animals- or do you think we are plants?
Humans are mammals, yes. What part of the scripture I quoted did you not understand? JGuy @ 58:
Barb. I don’t want to get into a big discussion. But who raised Jesus from the dead?
His father did. You can't resurrect yourself, and the Bible clearly speaks of God being eternal and never dying.Barb
January 14, 2014
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Barb. I don't want to get into a big discussion. But who raised Jesus from the dead?JGuy
January 13, 2014
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The land, water and resources it takes to raise that meat could be put to better use.
In your opinion.
No, that is a fact. So living life as God originally intended isn't a good thing, then...Joe
January 13, 2014
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Barb- Humans are animals- or do you think we are plants?Joe
January 13, 2014
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I always liked the story of how Jesus, after resurrecting Lazarus, said, "Give him some strong meat." It would not be the same if he had said, "Give him a carrot."Mapou
January 13, 2014
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Joe again writes,
So God endorsed cannibalism?
People eating animals isn't cannibalism. Please develop some reading comprehension skills.
And there is plenty wrong with eating meat.
Such as? A meat-based diet does provide good sources of protein that vegetarian diets sometimes lack.
The land, water and resources it takes to raise that meat could be put to better use.
In your opinion. Vegetarianism or veganism definitely has health benefits for people, but your point was that the Bible allows only for vegetarian diets. You are wrong, and I pointed this out. Deal with it. I think Michael Pollan put it best when he wrote, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."Barb
January 13, 2014
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So God endorsed cannibalism? And there is plenty wrong with eating meat. The land, water and resources it takes to raise that meat could be put to better use.Joe
January 13, 2014
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Joe writes, "Exactly! I love bringing that up with the JWs who come to my house- “Do you eat meat? You do? Then you really don’t live the word of the Bible do you?” As a JW, I feel compelled to answer this. Although typically I don't answer people who are sarcastic and rude when I knock on their doors. This comes from the issue of "Awake!" magazine (2/22/04), in an article on pets:
Animals may benefit man by serving as food. Originally, God provided only vegetation as food for man. But more than 1,600 years later—after the Flood of Noah’s day—God said: “Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you.” (Genesis 1:29; 9:3) Thus, God made the concession for humans to eat animals. Evidently, this concession was for man’s good, although originally God did not include meat as part of the human diet.
As far as JWs are concerned, we are trying to live the Bible, as Joe puts it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat. Unless Joe wants to debate the merits of the scripture I quoted.Barb
January 13, 2014
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Querius:
There’s significant evidence that Genesis 1 through the story of Jacob was written by at least 10 authors on clay tablets.
This does not surprise me one bit. Genesis does look like a compilation. I can detect at least two different Adam and Eve stories in Genesis. There is the one in the garden of Eden (which I think is metaphorical) and there is another story with a couple named Adam and Eve together with their children (Cain and Abel, etc.) and a bunch of other people who also lived at the time.Mapou
January 12, 2014
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The original vegetarian state.
Exactly! I love bringing that up with the JWs who come to my house- "Do you eat meat? You do? Then you really don't live the word of the Bible do you?"Joe
January 12, 2014
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Incidentally, if any of you are unaware of the (clay) tablet theory of Genesis that was first proposed by P.J. Wiseman in the 1930s, you might be interested in this article: http://www.trueorigin.org/tablet.asp There's significant evidence that Genesis 1 through the story of Jacob was written by at least 10 authors on clay tablets. The story of Joseph to the end is presumed to have been originally written on papyrus in Egypt. The first few chapters of Genesis has some fascinating themes that include: - A single, unnamed, all-powerful God creating nature in harmony, perhaps commanding that it be created: "Let there be...". - A binary system of separation: light and dark, earth and water, etc. - A succession of things created out of other things. The final creation of God was a human female. - An evaluation of each creative period. It was "good" (not perfect). - A terrestrial perspective---thus the unnamed greater and lesser lights/lamps might have been somewhat obscured early on by mist, and that these lights aren't Gods. - The original role of humans to protect and tame nature. - The original vegetarian state. - The introduction of suffering through an intelligent creature. And so on. -QQuerius
January 12, 2014
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UD-Thanks for posting such valuable posts! Thank God for intelligent ID'ers that post here. Blessed to read ID'ers comments here and enjoy how BA77 ties his post with a neat verse and music. Look forward to this debate with Nye, hopefully he will score better here than he did at "Dancing with the stars"!Chalciss
January 12, 2014
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Mapou, I did not mean to offend but this is what you previously stated:
The Genesis creation story is hard to interpret because the moment the text mentions a devious talking snake and trees of life and knowledge, it is an immediate sign to me that a huge part of it is metaphorical.
So I don't think you can say I was misrepresenting you. Again I meant no offense. I hope you strongly consider my previous comments. It's pretty clear that the majority of Genesis, (especially relating to Creation and the global flood), is not written in metaphorical language. It is written as a historical account.lifepsy
January 12, 2014
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lifepsy:
So you use a couple verses that seem metaphorical to discount the entire Creation and Flood account in Genesis? The construction of the Ark is metaphorical? The majority of the account of Genesis sounds more like matter-of-fact, historical bullet points. Not metaphor.
You know, I don't appreciate that you think it's OK to put words in my mouth. This discussion is getting nowhere fast, in my opinion. This is my last post in this thread. Sorry.Mapou
January 12, 2014
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Mapou, 37
I don’t believe in either a global flood or a young earth. Yes, I’m a Christian and I’ve read the book of Genesis many times. The Genesis creation story is hard to interpret because the moment the text mentions a devious talking snake and trees of life and knowledge, it is an immediate sign to me that a huge part of it is metaphorical. Why? Because I have seen the same metaphors used in other symbolic scriptures.
So you use a couple verses that seem metaphorical to discount the entire Creation and Flood account in Genesis? The construction of the Ark is metaphorical? The majority of the account of Genesis sounds more like matter-of-fact, historical bullet points. Not metaphor. Mapou, does it mean anything to you that Jesus Christ himself gave a history lesson on the flood? For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Matthew 24:38 Or how about that in the gospel of Peter, we are told straight out that people will come in the last days and deny that the Flood happened? Does that sound metaphorical? For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:5-6
It takes arrogance and self-deception for anybody to declare to the world that he or she has a monopoly on Biblical interpretation. I, too, can read, and I have my own interpretation. I may be wrong or I may be right. Who knows?
You seem awfully certain in your declaration that the YEC interpretation is wrong, and the Non-YEC interpretation is right. You're preaching it rather loudly, actually.lifepsy
January 12, 2014
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A decent summation of YEC geological arguments (VERY long and playlist is a little out-of-order at the beginning): http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL11166601CA0FB279johnnyb
January 12, 2014
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pps. When I wrote, "Job happens to be that book." This means Job happens to be the oldest book. At least as I've read is believed among scholars. And it happen to fit the prediction made from the model that it would have more mentions of snow and ice.JGuy
January 12, 2014
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correction "not I have a better grasp on your thinking now" should read "now I have a better grasp on your thinking" By the way, one example of an idea I have that I might not want to teach or assert is this. Taking a young earth view, and having good reasons to believe there was an ice-age for several hundred years after the flood... I once put all this together and made a prediction that if this were true, then perhaps the oldest book of the bible might have more references to ice, snow and cold. Job happens to be that book. And indeed, it has a disproportionate number of references to ice and snow. In fact, it has the most references to snow with 5 out of 25 total in the bible, the next was psalms with 4, and the rest were distributed in various other books once or twice. As for ice, it has 2 of the 3 total references in the entire bible. Though compelling, since it followed a prediction based on my YEC model, I naturally try to remain cautious with how I might present information like that.JGuy
January 12, 2014
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Mapou @ 40 I'm not going to make a full judgement call. But your interpretation seems over extrapolated. This can happen if one takes something as a metaphor, and starts reading into it... making puzzle pieces to fit into some construct they imagine. But thank you for sharing your thoughts, not I have a better grasp on your thinking now. That said. I believe that some of what we read in the bible is both literal and figurative(metaphorical?). Perhaps, a better description might be both literal and as types. For example, few will argue that Abraham and Isaac are literally true account of a man named Abraham and his unique son Isaac. And further, that this account also serves as a prophetic model or type of God the Father and Jesus the unique Son of God - especially at the cross. There are more than one example of this kind of typing in scripture, I believe. So, it would not surprise me if there are elements in Genesis that are (or seem to fit very well) both literal as I read it, and yet also serve as a type or model at some other level. For example, taking the flood and the ark as literal account, yet the ark serves as a prophetic type of Jesus the Messiah..where there is salvation inside the ark (Jesus) from God's wrath - e.g. in Ephesians we see Paul writing about being "in Christ". Anyway, not sure where to go with all this. I'd rather not get too side-tracked with extended thoughts. Even though there are passages I compellingly find as both literal & types, I would not want to come off as asserting/teaching what I imagine is compelling as actually what scripture says. I'd rather stay tentative on some.JGuy
January 12, 2014
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JGuy, Here's my current thinking. Take it or leave it. In my opinion, the serpent of Genesis is a metaphor for the Devil or Lucifer. I can assure you that, based on other scriptures, the Devil is not a literal serpent or dragon. He is described elsewhere as a beautiful, music-loving Archangel, a scoundrel for sure, but a beautiful one nonetheless. The prophecy about the woman getting bitten by the serpent and the latter getting its head crushed by the woman is obviously symbolic. This alone tells me that the Genesis story is at least partially metaphorical. Now, I am not going to ask you or anybody else to believe what I am about to say but, based on my research, I am almost certain that the tree of life is a scientific metaphor that represents the hierarchical organization of the genome. The tree of knowledge, on the other hand, symbolizes the hierarchical organization of knowledge, not just in general, but also the way it is structured in the brain. I also think it is possible that the Genesis story about Adam and Eve is just a metaphorical account of a very ancient but scientifically advanced civilization on earth that came to an abrupt end after falling out with the Elohim. They became advanced precisely because, metaphorically speaking, they ate of the forbidden tree of knowledge. Why did the Elohim forbid them to eat of those trees? Apparently, the Elohim did not trust the early humans and wanted to test them. Subsequently, after the fallout, the humans were kept from gaining an understanding of (i.e., eating the fruit of) the tree of life (the genome) which would have given them the know-how to stop aging and become immortal, just like the Elohim. IOW, the humans blew it, big time. You can make of this as you wish but the above is a part of my current interpretation of the Adam and Eve story. It is always subject to revision. My favorite motto: search and you shall find.Mapou
January 11, 2014
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Jerry is right this time: Kan Ham will destroy Bill Nye. Poor Bill!Levan
January 11, 2014
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Mapou
Why? Because I have seen the same metaphors used in other symbolic scriptures.
-- I've seen metaphorical writing that used metaphors which use term(s) X (&Y). -- Therefore X (& Y) in this ancient scripture is/are a metaphor(s). Does that sum up your reasoning? Questions: How do you know the other writing is purely metaphorical? Even if that were true that one was metaphorical, how do you know the other is using X as a metaphor? Is it possible that a literal interpretation can be used metaphorically in separate texts? Is it possible that one was originally literal, and then subsequent use became figurative? More importantly, why would a term need consistently be a metaphor across different texts? Are the terms accused of being metaphors actually misleadingly interpreted words? e.g. Perhaps, 'serpent' has a better translation from ancient Hebrew in the context. That they may not be metaphors is very possible in a universe, we could never have imagined alone, that was created by a sovereign God, especially one where God emphasized having child-like faith and trust in God's word...so.. Is it's possible that in this case - amidst our abundant ignorance on historical matters - a kind of child-like belief is needed rather than reliance on our oft puffed up intellectualizing (not making an accusation). Perhaps we need sometimes faith like that where Jesus spoke of having a faith like a child, and absent the taint of a puffed up mind (stemming from pride in one's otherwise extensive knowledge). Where does this leave one? Well, not sure this would lead to any immediately clear conclusion on the literal (or not) nature of the terms in the text...but I'd say we should be slower to applying extra-biblical interpretations of scripture. We are left, imo, simply more at the mercy of God's word.... Basically, akin to being put in Eve's position in Genesis chapter 3, where now we know we must instead rely solely on what God said, and not what we feel or think in contrast. Perhaps, life since the fall incorporates this as a lesson - woven into the plan from the beginning. We learn from the error of Adam & Eve not trusting/believing God's WORDS, where they rather gave over to some feelings and thoughts contrary to God's direct words...so, perhaps as some lesson, we can not visibly see God like Adam and Eve could in the garden, so we are even more-so in a state that we must believe what God said, and not by our sight or own reasoning. I feel like I'm rambling on..so..read with a grain of salt as just some thoughts to ponder.JGuy
January 11, 2014
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lifepsy, I don't believe in either a global flood or a young earth. Yes, I'm a Christian and I've read the book of Genesis many times. The Genesis creation story is hard to interpret because the moment the text mentions a devious talking snake and trees of life and knowledge, it is an immediate sign to me that a huge part of it is metaphorical. Why? Because I have seen the same metaphors used in other symbolic scriptures. It takes arrogance and self-deception for anybody to declare to the world that he or she has a monopoly on Biblical interpretation. I, too, can read, and I have my own interpretation. I may be wrong or I may be right. Who knows? Unless some angel comes to me in a dream and reveals the truth to me, I am forced to doubt my own understanding, let alone somebody else's. As a Christian, I believe that the Bible contains amazing, world-changing, scientific knowledge written in a metaphorical language. For example, I am convinced that the secret of how the brain and intelligence work can be found in the books of Revelation and Zechariah. I write about my research in "Biblical AI" on my blog but I don't go around and try to convince anybody that I'm right. Why? Because all I got is a bunch of words. But as soon as I can demonstrate an intelligent computer program based on the principles that I was able to decipher from the ancient texts (a program that knocks everybody's socks off), then it's a whole different ball game. I'm getting close but I'm not there yet. In the meantime, I will keep researching until I find more stuff.Mapou
January 11, 2014
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Mapou,
PS. Finding human fossils in the same sedimentary layers as dinosaur fossils would also be powerful evidence. Where are they?
Have you ever stopped to consider there may be reasons for the fossil sequence other than time? Within the context of a global flood: Rapid burial by ecological zone, with species mobility considerations, actually provides a strong argument for expecting a fossil sequence similar to what we observe. http://creationwiki.org/Fossil_sorting#Sorting_mechanismslifepsy
January 11, 2014
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Mapou @ 31 I wouldn't hold my breath. By the way, those are wreck-less accusations of operating in deception about career preservation motives of YEC scientists. If it were careers YEC were worried about, they could much more simply join the more entrenched old earth industry. I don't disagree with any claims on delusional thinking on the part of Darwinists. Though, I won't go so far as to say they are largely being intentionally deceptive, unless we want to call avoiding the debate deception - which is often the case. In contrast, YEC won't avoid discussing the issues within their own models as Darwinists tend to avoid issues in Darwinism. This is apparent if you filter through the YEC literature.JGuy
January 11, 2014
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It would be interesting for Ham to ask Nye what is the cause for the distribution of fossilized tracks of animal kinds to be significantly inconsistent (clearly biased in lower strata) with the distribution of the fossilized bodies of the same kinds of animals. And being the case true for at least amphibians, reptiles and dinosaurs. Of course, this would cause serious questions about the reliability of the secular consensus on the origin of the strata. Ham would have an easy simple answer with a global flood. Nye would be left with an awkward enigma. http://www.grisda.org/origins/09067.htmJGuy
January 11, 2014
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