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The End is Nye

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Jerry Coyne weighs in. He, of course, thinks Bill Nye shouldn’t debate Ken Ham.

Further to “Live streaming put on hold” for science celeb Bill Nye vs. creation star Ken Ham debate (immediate sellout crowd), advice continues to stream in to Nye not to debate Ham. The latest is from Jerry “Why Evolution Is True” Coyne:

Further, even in this friendly interview Nye doesn’t respond well to the criticism that he’s not really an expert on evolution, nor does he seem especially eloquent.

I suspect that Ham, in a William Lane Craig-like way, is preparing furiously for this debate, and I pray* that Nye is doing likewise. That’s the only way he’ll survive.

With cheerleading like Coyne’s, Nye wouldn’t be worse off with a creationist manager throwing him off his game.

Some readers have suggested that this debate is a very good thing, but I simply can’t agree. I suspect that such optimism stems from their respect for Nye’s accomplishment as a science presenter, and his demeanor as a nice guy. But Nye never had Ken Ham on his children’s show.

And I can’t shake the feeling that part of Nye’s motivation is to stay in the media spotlight. But doing it this way is a terrible mistake.

*I am praying metaphorically

Nye doesn’t need a metaphorical win, he needs an actual one. So does Ham.

Unclear why Coyne can’t “shake the feeling that part of Nye’s motivation is to stay in the media spotlight.” Nye makes a living in the media. He actually sought out this battle by trashing creationist parents. And unlike Coyne, he doesn’t have tenure.

See also: Evolutionary creation vs. young Earth creation at Scopes Trial courthouse?

Comments
There are tons of old artwork depicting sauropod-like dinosaurs. Hundreds of examples... found all over the world... This guy has documented tons of them.. very interesting http://s8int.com/WordPress/tag/dinosaurs-in-literature/ Prominent historians wrote about dinosaurs rather matter-of-factly as well. There is nothing too surprising or far-fetched about this. Dinosaurs were simply a relatively endangered animal that was hunted to extinction in the past. The Bible is obviously describing a large Sauropod in Job as well.lifepsy
January 11, 2014
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Mapou, 3
I am an old-earth, old-universe creationist. What good points do the YECs have for a young earth, pray tell? I have not seen or heard any.
For one, that it has been experimentally demonstrated that moving water currents will mechanically separate sediment types and lay them down in distinct horizontal stratification. Exactly like the dominant geological pattern we find all over the Earth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7exxtkN8610 Kind of makes you wonder if conventional old-earth geology might be fundamentally wrong about a lot of things, huh?lifepsy
January 11, 2014
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The main problem I see with YECs and Darwinists is that a refutation of their worldviews would mean the destruction of many careers. Many livelihoods would come to an abrupt end. They simply cannot allow that to happen. So they keep up the fight for their survival and, in the process, their followers are deceived. That's too bad. Unfortunately for the promoters of both of these worldviews, sooner or later, the houses of cards that they have so painstakingly constructed over the years will come crashing down and that'll be the end of it all. I hate to be a prophet of doom but I have reasons to think that the end is closer than they are willing to believe.Mapou
January 11, 2014
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The fish swam to the other side of the earth- some road the giant wave... :)Joe
January 11, 2014
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-Joe
Ham will lose that part of the debate.
That's what I'm interested and concerned about this debate.
“If the asteroid impact of 65 mya wiped out the dinosaurs, why don’t we see their fossils in and just on top of the K-T boundry, ie the time period they would have died?”
The asteroid theory is just...I'm surprised not how the dinosaurs (may) died rather how the fish lived, because if the asteroid actually landed at the gulf of Mexico you think that the fish would have died by the shock wave as well as the pollution.origin_surgeon
January 11, 2014
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Mapou, Engineering- operational science- is one thing. Reconstructing a dinosaur from bone fragments is another. And I don't think Ken Ham will "win" this point if it is part of the debate. I just watch a lot of "History Channel" and remembered seeing depictions of dinosaurs- some on cave walls too- by ancient peoples.Joe
January 11, 2014
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origin_surgeon: Are the Ica Stones Fake? Skeptics Under Fire It looks like the Ica stones could be a whole debate just by themselves...Joe
January 11, 2014
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Joe @23:
So the ancient paleontologists were just as apt as the modern paleos?
Well, they did not have to be. However, when I see powerful evidence for the amazing engineering abilities of ancient societies, I think that, even though they did not have the accumulated knowledge of the 21st century, they were not the dummies that many pompous academics make them out to be.Mapou
January 11, 2014
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o_s- there isn't any "proof" and Ham will lose that part of the debate. However Ham could counter with "If the asteroid impact of 65 mya wiped out the dinosaurs, why don't we see their fossils in and just on top of the K-T boundry, ie the time period they would have died?"Joe
January 11, 2014
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hi mapou. there is a lots of evidence for young earth. take a look at this: http://creation.com/age-of-the-earthmk
January 11, 2014
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Mapou, So the ancient paleontologists were just as apt as the modern paleos?Joe
January 11, 2014
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Joe, The stegosaurus in Cambodia looks promising but there not a whole of information about it, it might be a hoax so in case if Mr.Ken Ham views this as proof it'll be unwise without a through examination along side with skeptics. as for the Inca stones according to this archaeologist Ken Feder in his book the Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology: From Atlantis To The Walam Olum it reads
"The Ica Stones are not the most sophisticated of the archaeological hoaxes discussed in this book, but they certainly rank up there as the most preposterous."
origin_surgeon
January 11, 2014
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LP
Only mathematical morons try and plot the Earth’s population and come up with a YEC. Ian Juby is one of those morons.
I have had little experience with reading your posts until yesterday. I mostly concede to one point on GA's. But this (ad hom fallacy) is not the kind of argument I respect. Try again.
That the “young earth view makes sense with a straight forward reading of the bible” is balanced by many other religions. If you were born in India and/or adopted Hindu cosmogony then you would have a a very Old Earth view.
You might have a point if I had meant to apply that reason for nonbelievers. But I didn't intend it for Hindu's and atheists - that should have been implicitly clear enough.
Most Christians in Europe/UK are Old Earth. YEC seems to be a peculiar phenomena mostly American. YEC are amusing though.
Even if you were correct, so what? One could counter with the actually effective retort that most Christians before Lyell believed in a young earth. e.g. the "amusing" Isaac Newton in/from England (not America).... That many were first duped (even to this day) by the original faulty old earth arguments of Lyell does nothing to help your case. But again, it doesn't matter, the specific point your comment targets was clearly not intended for non-believers of the bible in the first place.JGuy
January 11, 2014
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PS. Finding human fossils in the same sedimentary layers as dinosaur fossils would also be powerful evidence. Where are they?Mapou
January 11, 2014
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Joe @17, Scientifically speaking, to prove that humans lived during the time of dinosaurs, one needs to show that those drawings are contemporary with dinosaur fossils. It's a sure bet that the drawings are no more than a few thousand years old or less. So the question should be, if those drawings truly represent dinosaurs, how did ancient human societies find out about them? I suggest that they did it the same way modern humans did it. They dug the ground and found fossils.Mapou
January 11, 2014
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Mapou, I agree with a caveat- "young" is relative. I disagree with a 6.000 year old earth and I know the Bible doesn't say the earth is 6,000 some odd years old. However I also disagree with a 4.5x billion uear old earth as that is totally untestable.Joe
January 11, 2014
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OS- I have never seen that image. stegasaurus in cambodia inca stonesJoe
January 11, 2014
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In my opinion, young earth creationists are just as much out to lunch as the Darwinists. The available evidence clearly shows an extremely old and carefully designed universe. Anything else is dogma and superstition, not science. Telling it like I see it.Mapou
January 11, 2014
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@Joe.
there are depictions of dinosaurs in ancient drawings- is that scientific evidence for our coexistence?
Yes and no. Yes, to some degree it would because primitive man would know what dinosaurs looked like before fossil experdisions but No, because one of the most important Pictographs for creationism has been debunked Also Mr.Ham will be debating towards and against a very skeptic crowd, so evidence best presented would be for example our ancestors used young dinosaur bones for tools or even better; a human foot in a T-rex mouth.origin_surgeon
January 11, 2014
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Can Bill Nye give scientific evidence for evolutionism? BTW there are depictions of dinosaurs in ancient drawings- is that scientific evidence for our coexistence?Joe
January 11, 2014
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Tthe question is: Can Ken Ham give scientific evidence that humans co-existence with dinosaurs? If you seen his museum there are statues makes the suggestion that we did,(at least from a YEC view point) however Mr.Ham answers the question it will certainly tip the scale the view of the debate.origin_surgeon
January 11, 2014
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'The End is Nye'. Many a true word, if punnily misspelled, is said in jest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI_KExaudxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnlcedAynkc What was that about God having to apologise to Sodom and Gommorrah, if he didn't judge the US soon? (think unfettered capitalism); not to speak of the rest of us Western-capitalist rogues. That 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father,' has become that bit more plausible to truculent atheists.Axel
January 11, 2014
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^ "i don't agree with you so i'll call you a moron and use the fact that a lot of other people don't agree with you either as evidence as to why you're wrong"wentzelitis
January 11, 2014
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It all happened Last Thursday but that aside JGuy, read this post. And I mean read it, http://www.rationalskepticism.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1783&p=29572#p29572 Only mathematical morons try and plot the Earth’s population and come up with a YEC. Ian Juby is one of those morons. That the "young earth view makes sense with a straight forward reading of the bible" is balanced by many other religions. If you were born in India and/or adopted Hindu cosmogony then you would have a a very Old Earth view. Most Christians in Europe/UK are Old Earth. YEC seems to be a peculiar phenomena mostly American. YEC are amusing though.Lincoln Phipps
January 11, 2014
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It would not surprise me to see Nye back away from this debate (although he may be too far committed at this time). If it happens, Nye will be plastered - of that I have no doubt. For starters, like the vast majority of people, Nye doesn't even understand what the true issues are in this matter. For instance, those opposing Biblical Creationism generally don't grasp that this is first and foremost a *theological* matter long before it is a "scientific" one. Besides that, what "science" are we talking about - the one that presupposes Materialism? Nye is ill-informed, misinformed and uninformed in these areas.Jorge
January 11, 2014
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Mr Coyne sure has the right to articulate suspicions of motivations!!! Then why not everyone? If we do likewise EVIDENCE is demanded like for why people seem denied positions in school or other professions. Nye is useless as a debater. I don't know how good hAm is but he's sharper and can only win. I'm banned at Coyne's webpage. I think they can't take intellectual fighting and are afraid of this being made apparent to audiences normally shut out from creationists. If they can't beat a YEC creationist on science and origins then what is your hope for keeping the old faith alive? Its hilarious in these last days of evolutiondom to see them far apart. YEC was here first ID friends by the way!Robert Byers
January 11, 2014
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F/N: On origins, I think we all need to take a step back from the fallacy of confident manner on a past we did not observe and must only model in light of best explanation of its traces, in the face of a bit of hard-bought wisdom from Job, as God enters the debate over his troubles, talking out of the storm:
Job 38: 1 . . . the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? . . .
We were not there, and should humbly face the fact of the limitations of warrant regarding knowledge claims on a past we did not observe. Otherwise, we will be guilty of darkening counsel with foolish words that presume a degree of certainty we simply cannot have. In this regard, I find myself increasingly concerned about the slander that willfully, blatantly and maliciously accuses parents and others who seek to raise godly children in an increasingly bizarrely godless age of darkness put in place for light -- bitter for sweet -- poison for food -- evil for good [I am specifically alluding to Isa 5:20 - 21], of "child abuse." That is an accusation with menacing teeth in an age where people may easily be robbed of children by over-zealous welfare officials. And, it is an accusation that those who make it MUST know is patently false and poisonously prejudicial. If Mr Nye is of that number, he has already forfeited any moral high ground, and should not be entertained as though he were a credible, sympathetic figure. He would be a willful false accuser and enabler of false accusation. He would owe us all an abject public apology, retraction and corrective instruction on the same level of exposure as that toxic false accusation. And that extends directly to Dawkins and ilk. Failing such, that ilk should be publicly marked as willful false accusers. It seems, I need to state a warning -- I insist on learning from Niemoller, I will not be silent:
He who would rob me of my children, would rob me of my posterity. He who would rob me of my job, would rob me of my livelihood and my life. He who would rob me of the gospel, would rob me of my soul.
KF PS: On relevant worldview issues on the credible reality of God, cf. here on in context, including here on Darwinism, Darwin's attitudes and motives and so-called free thought. On the credibility of the gospel, cf. here on.kairosfocus
January 11, 2014
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Mapau @ 3 I'm a YEC. And personally feel near compelled to argue that we CAN'T know the age of the earth. However, that's not my firm position here. I'm just stating that it may be much harder than most convinced people think (whether young earther or old earther) to make such an assessment about the general age of the earth at any level - if not impossible. That said. There are plenty of arguments that contradict the old earth view. For example: C14 in half billion year old diamonds. Faint young sun paradox. Salt in the ocean. Erosion rate of the continents. Helium levels in zircons...and others.. AND the general evidences of young life on earth, such as C14 in dinosaur fossils, the persistence of soft tissue in dinosaur bones is an enigma. DNA and proteins in supposedly tens and hundreds of million year old excavations. Age of mitochondrial eve using observed fast mutation rates. Earth's population. Lack of dead people in graves or caves...etc.. Granted, evidence of young life does not mean a young earth, but it does mean there is a problem with the basis for determining the old life ages in the first place (i.e. a problem stemming from the old earth paradigm). Finally, a young earth view makes sense with a straight forward reading of the bible. No evolution. Man was specially created with all other life. With a global flood about 4500 years ago. And the generations from Adam to Christ make sense.JGuy
January 11, 2014
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Wow! Nye referred to Ham as "this guy"... This tells me Nye has not enough of a clue about who he's getting into a debate with. Ham inviting Nye to a debate is like a shark inviting a mackerel to have lunch sometime. I hope Nye doesn't back out. Of course, if he does, this will not look good either. So, no matter what, evolutionists will regret this ever being scheduled.JGuy
January 11, 2014
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@3.
I am an old-earth, old-universe creationist. What good points do the YECs have for a young earth, pray tell? I have not seen or heard any.
Mapou, Even though I'm a old-earth creationist as well but there are some arguments worth looking. e.g. The shrinkage of the sun.origin_surgeon
January 10, 2014
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