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ID theory … in one handy article

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Evolution News and Views

Further to “Atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel’s anti-Darwin book ‘can’t be ignoredby the thinking public’”, here is Discovery Institute’s Casey Luskin’s summary:

Intelligent design is a scientific theory that argues that the best explanation for some natural phenomena is an intelligence cause, especially when we find certain types of information and complexity in nature which in our experience are caused by intelligence.

… topics …

1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information.

2. ID is NOT a theory about the designer or the supernatural

3. ID is NOT a theory of everything

He then goes on to say what it is:

1. ID uses a positive argument based upon finding high levels of complex and specified information

The theory of intelligent design begins with observations of how intelligent agents act when they design things. Human intelligence provides a large empirical dataset for studying the products of the action of intelligent agents. This present-day observation-based dataset establishes cause-and-effect relationships between intelligent action and certain types of information.

William Dembski observes that “[t]he principle characteristic of intelligent agency is directed contingency, or what we call choice.”15 Dembski calls ID “a theory of information” where “information becomes a reliable indicator of design as well as a proper object for scientific investigation.”16 A cause-and-effect relationship can be established between mind and information. As information theorist Henry Quastler observed, the “creation of new information is habitually associated with conscious activity.”17

The most commonly cited type of “information” that reliably indicates design is “specified complexity.” As Dembski writes, “the defining feature of intelligent causes is their ability to create novel information and, in particular, specified complexity.”18 Though the terms were not originally coined by an ID proponent, Dembski suggests that design can be detected when one finds a rare or highly unlikely event (making it complex) which conforms to an independently derived pattern (making it specified). ID proponents call this complex and specified information, or “CSI.” Stephen Meyer explains that in our experience, only intelligent agents produce this type of information:
More.

Note: It’s depressing that so much “opposition” to the notion of design in the universe/life forms comes from Jesus-hollering academics who say things like “Well, that would make God responsible for bad design!”

I (O’Leary for News) wrote about that in “Here’s one bad reason for rejecting ID,” pointing out that when speaking to Moses, God takes responsibility for things that don’t work. (Ex. 4:11) These facts cannot be used as an argument against divine authorship or involvement by anyone claiming to operate within the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

So far as I am concerned, any Christian academic using such arguments should rightly be suspected of not actually knowing, caring about, or even taking seriously what the Bible says. Of course, many theistic evolutionists/Christian Darwinists probably do not know, care about, or even take seriously what the Bible says about anything if it conflicts with current fashion. But they are only allowed to openly say that about topics like Adam and Eve, about whom they make silly jokes. If they start saying that they don’t think Moses ever really talked with God or reported what he said accurately, why then … why then they might be asked just what their issues really are, and those issues won’t turn out to be “information theory” or “specified complexity.” Hence all the evasion and fancy dancing.

But don’t expect serious questions to be asked any time soon. Too many people are complicit now.

At any rate, the issues thinking atheists who don’t work for lobbies raise are far more honest.

Comments
CSI and SC are the same like matter and energy are the same- both are different manifistations of the same thing. And it is very telling that you cannot pull the definition from the paper and post it here.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Um, yes, Joe, it is. In that paper Dembski calls it "chi", or "specified complexity", but it's the same thing as he and others elsewhere have called Complex Specified Information, as Dennis Jones points out here:
Complex Specified Information (CSI) is also called specified complexity.
Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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I’ll say it, as I’ve said it before: the ID position is invalid. It’s not necessarily wrong, but it is invalid.
Another example of what I was talking about. Notice the very careful choice of words. There is no denial that intelligence is the cause only an academic phrasing that somehow intelligence can be true but invalid. In this case it is academic-ese for I can't possibly dispute the obviousness of your conclusion but I can find some tiny little fault in your method, and because of this your conclusion is not to be accepted even if true.
Even the fancy math boils down to: This thing looks designed, therefore it was designed.
Ah, yes that is what the math says but it also says that it is almost impossible for anything else to have caused it. Now ID does not say absolutely that there is no other possible explanation only that it is extremely unlikely. While those who oppose ID say it is absolutely not a consideration. The implied hypocrisy in this statement is amazing. Or
in estuary English: it’s bleedin’ obvious innit.
jerry
August 19, 2013
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From No Free Lunch" page 141: Complex Specified Information- The coincidence of conceptual and physical information where the conceptual information is both identifiable independently of the physical information and also complex.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Elizabeth, CSI isn't even discussed in that paper. I challenge you to search on "CSI" or "complex specified information"- you won't find it in that paper. As I said you don't know jack about ID nor its concepts.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Joe, Dembski defines CSI in terms of a chance hypothesis. I'm not sure that you "know jack about ID or its concepts". Or perhaps you reject Dembski's concept of CSI?Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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R0bb:
CSI is defined in terms of a chance hypothesis.
No, it isn't. As I have been saying, you chumps don't know jack about ID nor its concepts.Joe
August 19, 2013
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Elizabeth:
I’ll say it, as I’ve said it before: the ID position is invalid.
Coming from you that is meaningless as you don't understand anything ID. And if something looks designed then that alone is enough to look into it to see if it was. And when no one can demonstrate that any other process can produce it, then we are very safe to infer design. OTOH your position doesn't even have any methodology except to say "it isn't designed and we don't care if no one knows how it arose it wasn't designed".Joe
August 19, 2013
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jerry:
If the ID position is invalid, why all the dancing. Why not go directly to the issue and say it.
I'll say it, as I've said it before: the ID position is invalid. It's not necessarily wrong, but it is invalid. Even the fancy math boils down to: This thing looks designed, therefore it was designed. Or, in estuary English: it's bleedin' obvious innit.Elizabeth B Liddle
August 19, 2013
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CSI is defined in terms of a chance hypothesis. What chance hypothesis do you use to determine whether something exhibits CSI?
Here is an example of what I just was talking about.jerry
August 18, 2013
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uniform experience with CSI
Let me say a few simple things about CSI. This is not meant in any way to be comprehensive and there have been long discussions about this and I haven't commented here much in the last few years so I do not know what has been said in that time. A basic example - take the carvings on Mt. Rushmore. This is an example of CSI. I do not know how one would calculate the information or the amount of information in the carvings but no one in their right minds would deny that these carvings were not complex and that the entity, Mr. Rushmore, is independent of the thing which the carvings refer to or specify. Also no one would deny they are intelligent based. Something similar would be the stones at Easter Island and with this example, the independent pattern being specified or referred to is unknown. One might add Stonehedge but here it is not clear what it all means except it is apparently related to the solar year and could have a hundred different functions. Getting more iffy would be arrow heads and shards of rock in debris at the bottom of a mesa. So is a triangular piece of rock, an arrow head made by an intelligent source or by natural forces. Different aspects of the rock fragment would determine if it was or was not or maybe it would be undetermined. A typical forensic crime show (these shows are often coincidently named CSI in US Television for crime scene investigation) will occasionally look at crime scenes to determine if certain patterns are man made or not. My examples above were for fossils which somehow recorded an image of a real thing almost like a photograph, one an animal and the other a rock. Both are natural processes and the image is not quite like Easter Island or Stonehedge but it is a recording of another object. So is it CSI? I was pointing out that the definition of CSI may not be as definitive as one would want. There are some rather complicated mathematical definitions which I do not understand but it should be translatable to a layman's language. I am still not sure if that is true. FCSI is where an entity actually specifies another entity independent of it and the second entity has an identifiable function. Language, computer code and DNA/proteins are all examples of FSCI. This may not be the best explanation but it essentially gets at the concept. A specifies B which is independent of A and B has a function. DNA/proteins are the only example found in nature. Not only are the proteins and the DNA specifying them extremely complex but so are the systems that these proteins form. No one knows where the instructions are that specify the building of the organism and the interactions that must take place but these must also be FCSI and incredibly complex. Other forms of FCSI are quite common and all intelligent based. Anyone commenting here for very long understands this. So if someone denies the obvious, then I have to ask why. There has been a pattern of objections over the years that deny the obviousness of some things which goes along with the behavior of never answering direct questions or even admitting that there may be something valid in what others are saying. When that happens the intelligent thing is to infer that they are playing games. It is not rare here. It happens numerous times every day. If the ID position is invalid, why all the dancing. Why not go directly to the issue and say it.jerry
August 18, 2013
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Absolutely true. Anyone who denies it is playing games and is disingenuous.
Okay, let's talk about our alleged uniform experience with CSI. CSI is defined in terms of a chance hypothesis. What chance hypothesis do you use to determine whether something exhibits CSI?R0bb
August 18, 2013
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jerry:
If they were honest, they would point out the possible short comings and would then provide guidance to a better definition to eliminate these shortcoings.
I'm happy to point you to critics who have done just that (see for example Elsberry and Shallit's "SAI", or Erik Tellgren's suggestions). The problem is that some shortcomings are too fundamental to be fixed with a better definition (e.g. the fact that CSI doesn't take into account the merits -- or lack thereof -- of the design hypothesis).R0bb
August 18, 2013
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kairosfocus:
Please, look at what you did above that provoked my response.
I'll be happy to if you'll tell me what I did. Was it because I referred Joe to Ewert's article, where Ewert calculates the specified complexity of something that you consider to not be specified "in the relevant sense"? As to my alleged strawman, whose position did I misrepresent and how did I misrepresent it?R0bb
August 18, 2013
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interpretation of “it”
The "it" refers to
have uniform experience with CSI and that it invariably indicates design?
jerry
August 18, 2013
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And now, Your Eminence, would you kindly indicate which interpretation of "it" you were referring to?Daniel King
August 18, 2013
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You're most entirely welcome.Daniel King
August 18, 2013
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You’re a credit to the ID movement.
Thank you for your comments.jerry
August 18, 2013
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Absolutely true. Anyone who denies it is playing games and is disingenuous.
jerry, what "it" are you referring to? That we have "uniform experience with design"? or that IT (CSI) invariably indicates design? In whatever case, you are a treasure. Someone who thinks that the only way to see things is his way. (Not an uncommon attitude on this site!) And who tosses about ad hominems: "anyone who denies [what jerry believes] is playing games and is disingenuous," as if those aspersions were reasoned arguments. You're a credit to the ID movement.Daniel King
August 18, 2013
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R0bb:
And yet Ewert’s calculations tell us that there are 1,068,017 bits of CSI (I checked it and got 1,062,056, but close enough) under a null hypothesis of equiprobability, and 593,493 bits of CSI under his second null hypothesis (I got the same number). If you see errors in these calculations, can you point them out to us?
You misread what he said.
So can you tell me how we determine, without chance hypotheses, whether something has CSI?
LoL! How something arose has NOTHING to do with whether or not it has CSI. And thanks for proving that there aren't any chance hypotheses.
As to “some other process”, I don’t know what processes they use.
In order to follow the rules of scientific investigation they have to use the explanatory filter or something exactly like it.Joe
August 18, 2013
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What are your feelings on the claim of Dembski, Meyer, and others that we have uniform experience with CSI and that it invariably indicates design?
Absolutely true. Anyone who denies it is playing games and is disingenuous. I was pointing out that the definition needs some tightening to eliminate the examples I gave. There is a little bit of a definitional problem. That is all. Anyone with common sense would say design. FCSI is much clearer and is actually a stronger indication of design.jerry
August 18, 2013
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jerry:
There have been long discussions on the term “CSI” without any quiet feeling of confidence about the term.
What are your feelings on the claim of Dembski, Meyer, and others that we have uniform experience with CSI and that it invariably indicates design?R0bb
August 18, 2013
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P.S. Sorry for the mangled blockquotes above. The first quote from Joe should be like this:
R0bb:
Which gives the lie to the oft-repeated claim that “in our experience, only intelligent agents produce” CSI. Everything has CSI under some null hypotheses and lacks CSI under other null hypotheses.
There isn’t any CSI in Lizzie’s picture, R0bb.
R0bb
August 18, 2013
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Joe:
<blockquote.Which gives the lie to the oft-repeated claim that “in our experience, only intelligent agents produce” CSI. Everything has CSI under some null hypotheses and lacks CSI under other null hypotheses.
There isn’t any CSI in Lizzie’s picture, R0bb. And yet Ewert's calculations tell us that there are 1,068,017 bits of CSI (I checked it and got 1,062,056, but close enough) under a null hypothesis of equiprobability, and 593,493 bits of CSI under his second null hypothesis (I got the same number). If you see errors in these calculations, can you point them out to us?
So when Dembski says “relevant chance hypotheses”, do you interpret that to mean “hypotheses that anti-IDists consider relevant”?
There areb’t any because the anti-IDists cannot produce any.
Since you didn't answer the question, I'll assume that your answer is yes. So can you tell me how we determine, without chance hypotheses, whether something has CSI?
If, say, detectives want to use Dembski’s method to determine whether a fire was intentionally lit, do they have to contact anti-IDists in order to determine the relevant chance hypotheses?
What do you mean “if”? Do you think they use some other process? Please specify it.
Again you didn't answer the question. As to "some other process", I don't know what processes they use. But I imagine that if I were the investigator, I would weigh the merits of the arson hypothesis against the merits of other hypotheses.R0bb
August 18, 2013
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Jerry: CSI, a fairly simple concept has been subjected to the rhetorical pretzels game for so long that my own response is to highlight that functional specificity is the relevant kind. The fossil mould, whatever it is, is simply an event. It is complex, presumably, but not in any way that locks us down to 1 in 10^150 of a config space with no significant constraints on outcome. Providing you have clay or some cementitious mud etc, moulds will form by mechanical necessity around inclusions. Like here, we see moulds in cemented volcanic deposits surrounding stones or tree trunks. And I don't doubt that under the mud at Plymouth we have fossils now. CSI is not isolated from the explanatory filter. FSCO/I is much easier to see, for those willing. Big problem. _______ Robb: Please, look at what you did above that provoked my response. Whatever Ewert did or did not do does not excuse you on what you know or should know. KF PS: It is a difficult time.kairosfocus
August 18, 2013
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There have been long discussions on the term "CSI" without any quiet feeling of confidence about the term. That is why FCSI or FSCI was introduced to delineate those sub cases where there is a functional connection between one set of complex information and another. I have been recently reading and watching a lot of videos on fossils. There are something called trace fossils which are mainly just squiggles in a rock which are supposed to represent some organism moving about. Then there are much more graphic traces which seem to be the outline of the organism with some indentations from the actual organism which gives the shape of the organism. Some have more detail. They are like snapshots of the organism but not the organism itself. Nature did this through obvious natural processes. There are impressions left by rocks in the sediment which again are like snapshots of the rock. These impressions specify or point to a pattern outside of itself and yet they are completely natural. So are they CSI? I know these are bogus examples in the evolution debate but if they are CSI does it mean that we must be more careful with the definition of the term. FCSI does not suffer from this shortcoming. This is not to give solace to anyone questioning CSI because those who have are being completely disingenuous. Why do I say that? Because it is so obvious that it is a meaningful concept. If they were honest, they would point out the possible short comings and would then provide guidance to a better definition to eliminate these shortcoings. But no we get all the nonsense we see here and have seen before.jerry
August 18, 2013
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In Lizzie's glacier picture there isn't any specuification and there isn't any CSI. And only morons think that science is conducted using pictures only- especially pictures not showing the entire scene...Joe
August 18, 2013
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R0bb:
Which gives the lie to the oft-repeated claim that “in our experience, only intelligent agents produce” CSI. Everything has CSI under some null hypotheses and lacks CSI under other null hypotheses.
There isn't any CSI in Lizzie's picture, R0bb.
So when Dembski says “relevant chance hypotheses”, do you interpret that to mean “hypotheses that anti-IDists consider relevant”?
There areb't any because the anti-IDists cannot produce any.
If, say, detectives want to use Dembski’s method to determine whether a fire was intentionally lit, do they have to contact anti-IDists in order to determine the relevant chance hypotheses?
What do you mean "if"? Do you think they use some other process? Please specify it.Joe
August 18, 2013
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#25 Breckmin
It seems to me that there is a dishonesty and an agenda on the part of those who oppose ID to continuously fail to make a distinction between intelligent causation (whether agnostic theism or panspermia)and the theistic implications of intelligent causation (of which theistic implications are ALSO distinct from the religious implications – of such agnostic theism)
You guys are so quick with your accusations of dishonesty! I (honestly) think that the two are not so easy to separate. That's because I (honestly) believe that just to offer "intelligence" or "design" as an explanation without saying something about why or how is not an explanation any more than saying "chance" is an explanation without saying how would be an explanation. I might be wrong - but I am not being intentionally misleading or beside the point.Mark Frank
August 18, 2013
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@23 BA77 wrote:
...this is certainly not good news for the person who would want to toe the neo-Darwinian line of reductive materialism, (i.e. random configurations of material particles generating functional information), the problem, from an empirical evidence point of view, gets much worse from the reductive materialist.
processes of random generation never organize and arrange things because they do not put things in order... order is basically an opposite condition of random ... so comes the problem for the materialist. random doesn't ever produce useful information and this is open for falsification.Breckmin
August 18, 2013
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