Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part III

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I have been reflecting on the critical responses to my posts, which I appreciate. They mostly centre on the very need for ID to include theodicy as part of its intellectual orientation.

 

The intuitive basis for theodicy is pretty harmless: The presence of design implies a designing intelligence. Moreover, in order to make sense of the exact nature of the design, you need to make hypotheses about the designing intelligence. These hypotheses need to be tested and may or may not be confirmed in the course of further inquiry. Historians and archaeologists reason this way all the time. However, the theodicist applies the argument to nature itself.

 

At that point, theodicy binds science and theology together inextricably — with potentially explosive consequences. After all, if you take theodicy seriously, you may find yourself saying, once you learn more about the character of nature’s design, that science disconfirms certain accounts of God – but not others. Scientific and religious beliefs rise and fall together because, in the end, they are all about the same reality.

 

This is explosive because we live in a world where (allegedly) false scientific beliefs and false religious beliefs are treated radically differently. The former are a matter of public concern: Stamp them out now before our kids’ minds are contaminated! However, the latter are seen as being of purely private concern: Only the belief’s holder bears the consequences. I suppose this double-standard is what makes us ‘modern’, or at least ‘secular’. We end up tolerating all sorts of religious beliefs – including militant atheism – while even minor deviations from the scientific orthodoxy can lead to ostracism, as when Michael Reiss opened the door to creationist questioning of evolution.

 

Now some people on this blog believe that the safest way out of this minefield is to say that ID makes no hypotheses about the designing intelligence – some even go further to say that in principle the designing intelligence cannot be inferred from design. If you take these policies seriously, you won’t have any science at all. You’ll just have a toolkit of concepts and techniques for reliable design detection. That’s nice, but it doesn’t explain why all these designs should be treated as part of a common object of inquiry. Here you need some underlying laws and principles. This brings you back to proposing hypotheses about how the intelligent designer’s mind works. And then you’ll have science.

 

Even a simple concept like ‘irreducible complexity’ doesn’t really make sense except as a step towards a theory of the intelligence behind the design. Imagine a Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal of Behe’s concept: ‘Just because, say, a cell looks like it’s been purpose-built doesn’t mean that you can compare its parts to those of a mousetrap. That’s to take a superficial similarity and read into it way too much meaning. The cell’s apparent design could have been just as easily brought about by a combination of contingencies spread over a long stretch of time. Keep off the mechanistic metaphors, if you really want to understand how life works’.

 

My point here is that the Darwinist’s knee-jerk dismissal, however unjustified, is nevertheless right about one thing – namely, that Behe’s concept is not only about nature’s design but also the designing intelligence. For the Darwinist, to theorize both together begs the question against his position, which holds that the appearance of design need not implicate a designing intelligence. So it’s no surprise that Behe has been led to argue theodicy with Ken Miller. Yes, Behe is religious but his science already builds in the idea of a designing intelligence that we are trying to fathom at the same time we are trying to understand the design features of life.

 

One final thought: When militant Darwinists like Dawkins and Dennett call the teaching of religion ‘brainwashing’ that demands some sort of cerebral hygiene, they are mainly exercised about the claims of religion that explicitly tread on scientific ground. They get most of their rhetorical mileage from targeting Young Earth Creationists but it’s pretty clear that they also have ID in their sights. Perhaps the only virtue of these attacks is that they take the cognitive content of ID sufficiently seriously to realize that it’s incompatible with a strong naturalistic atheism. It would be too bad if avowed defenders of ID did not take the theory as seriously as its staunchest – and perhaps smartest – opponents do.

 

 

Comments
Upright BiPed, I did not direct the "un-Christian subterfuge" remark at your virtual identity. Behe strikes me as entirely honest. I do not consider Denton a leader of the ID movement. Johnson and Dembski have published honest and admirable discussion of ID in out-of-the-way places. I have wondered for years how those two Christians could in good conscience propagandize as their adversaries do in the "cultural war." Kierkegaard's "teleological suspension of the ethical" has come to mind many times. Clearly I have not demonized Johnson and Dembski, though their methods sometimes disgust me.Sal Gal
January 17, 2009
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StephenB @76:
We seem to be approaching violent agreement. I don’t think that ID researchers have identified the answer yet, but I do think that the question of the nature of the designer is a valid one, and properly part of ID theory. “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer. “We’re not considering that question” is not.
Well, no, my friend, not exactly. Darn it, I thought this might be the first time two people ever reached agreement in public on the web. We could have been famous!
You seem to misunderstand my position. The question about a designer is off limits until the researcher says differently.
I find this position untenable, for the reasons posted by myself and others previously in this thread. To summarize: 1) Detection of design provides information about the designer. At a minimum we determine that a designer exists, but the knowledge gain inherent in the process of researching design provides far more information than this. Each new discovery adds to this knowledge. 2) Design cannot be detected without making some working assumptions about the nature of the designer. By using CSI as an indicator of design, ID theorists are making some very strong claims about the designer, not least that it has an intelligence similar to that of, or recognizable by, humans. 3) Given 1 and 2, there is no logical, scientific reason to exclude consideration of the nature of the designer. In fact, doing so is unscientific in that it arbitrarily restricts where researchers may follow the evidence.
“Not yet” means, “No, I’ll let you know if and when I ever change my mind.” The scientist makes the call— not the Darwinists, not the scientists friends, and certainly not impatient critics kibbitzing from the sidelines.
All objections to investigating the nature of the designer seem to be based on political and rhetorical considerations. This is actually far more damning to the ID cause than openly and honestly discussing what ID researchers have learned about the designer. I ask you this: Why is investigating the designer considered non-scientific if ID theory doesn't assume, explicitly or implicitly, that the designer is God? This charade is ethically questionable, scientifically indefensible, and politically useless. We should take the moral high ground and follow the evidence where it leads. JJJayM
January 17, 2009
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JayM,
Thanks for the detailed response. I, too, have read SunTzu and find his wisdom applicable across more domains than military strategy and tactics. However, I’m not convinced that the military metaphor you use is entirely appropriate.
I wasn’t really attempting a military metaphor. What Sun Tzu and others described is no more about military maneuver than gravity is about Newton’s falling fruit. A mother trying to get her son out of the neighbor’s tree faces the same issues of opposing force as a damselfish surviving on a coral reef. Anytime forces meet in opposition the rules apply. Beyond the words used, there is no metaphor; the actual issues remain. Either the defended position matters or it doesn’t. Either attacking the weakness inherent in strength is wise, or it is not. Either broadening your forces against a superior opponent weakens your attack, or it doesn’t. Which is it? I think there are those who should answer the question. - - - - - - allanius, thank you. - - - - - - Sal, I enjoy reading your posts, even when I don’t agree with you. I especially appreciate your comments about a “utilitarian” approach to naturalism. I say this despite you finding it appropriate to accuse me of “unChristian subterfuge” if I don’t proceed as you on other matters. You also seam to think I have been influenced by Mr. Johnson, a man whose conquests I have never followed and whose writings I have never read. I am more likely influenced by Denton and Behe in ID and perhaps Berlinski in opinion. As for your post at #65, you are certainly correct that I was being rhetorical, but I am less sure of the remainder of your comments. I have no particular desire to put naturalism on trial. What I would like is for science and its outbound conclusions to demonstrate some level of integrity in what it does and does not know, the method of discovery is trivial by comparison.
In mainstream science, the “laws of nature” are inferred relations on empirical observations. They are essentially “unknown processes” that “connect” antecedent and consequent events, and methodological naturalists never arrive at final acceptance of them.
A fine textbook description. Unfortunately, materialist ideologues have very much arrived at their conclusions and have made every attempt to have their conclusions codified into all public thought on the matter. To think otherwise is simply blind. You apparently don’t need my help in jumping to conclusions; it seams you’ve done that yourself. The evidence presented by nucleic sequencing is that it requires agency to accomplish it. Chance and necessity have virtually nothing to recommend them in the bringing of the original nucleic sequence into order. This observation is purely agnostic. Despite your own assumptions otherwise, it provides nothing that says this agency is either outside of the laws of nature, or not. This is the issue at hand. Science is to serve mankind. If the scientific establishment, as well as its public relations vehicles and the broader media in general, were saying that science has proceeded to a point where chance and necessity were no more of an explanation for Life than agency, then at least some semblance of honesty would have returned to the issue. But that is not the case. The opposite is demonstrably true in more ways than can be counted. Of course, people will continue to promote that it is not science but ID being dishonest. What else could be expected - humility from those held up as the wisest among us?Upright BiPed
January 16, 2009
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----JayM: "We seem to be approaching violent agreement. I don’t think that ID researchers have identified the answer yet, but I do think that the question of the nature of the designer is a valid one, and properly part of ID theory. “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable answer. “We’re not considering that question” is not." Well, no, my friend, not exactly. You seem to misunderstand my position. The question about a designer is off limits until the researcher says differently. "Not yet" means, "No, I'll let you know if and when I ever change my mind." The scientist makes the call--- not the Darwinists, not the scientists friends, and certainly not impatient critics kibbitzing from the sidelines. My position is basically the same as that of Upright Biped, with the possible exception of allowing for future contingencies.StephenB
January 16, 2009
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WeaselSpotting, No free premise.
You’re a biochemist, you sequence DNA, and you find Hamlet embedded within. Where do you go from there?
Not that it's appropriate in this thread, but you should try to describe precisely how someone not looking for Hamlet specifically might find Hamlet "embedded" within a long sequence of letters from a four-letter alphabet. A related thought experiment is to consider how someone who is bent on extracting Hamlet from the sequence would go about selecting a decoding algorithm. I am not being contentious here. I have pointed you to some fundamental problems in design detection. And I have not done so with "down to earth" philosophy, but with a theoretical understanding of coding, language, and computation.Sal Gal
January 16, 2009
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StephenB @73: We seem to be approaching violent agreement. I don't think that ID researchers have identified the answer yet, but I do think that the question of the nature of the designer is a valid one, and properly part of ID theory. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer. "We're not considering that question" is not. JJJayM
January 16, 2009
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Oops, I meant, "clarion call."StephenB
January 16, 2009
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Jay, bfast Steve Sal Gal After reading your comments, (with due care I hope) my main point still seems to hold. The question is not, it seems to me, whether ID will morph into something else. It may or it may not. The question is this: When and by whom does this transformation take place? It’s not something that a “movement” can do; it requires an individual trailblazer. There is no reason for ID to change what it is at this time, because no one has provided the necessary light. If some new genius fashions a more expansive paradigm, then that’s great. Let the transformation begin. Meanwhile, that is, until that noble trailblazer comes along, It does no good for anyone else to say, “Hey, ID community, how about doing some trailblazing and extend the work of Dembski and Behe. The obvious answer to that challenge is, “If you want it done, do it yourself. We’re not there yet, and may never be.” This clarian call for innovation reminds of the creative-minded mouse who once reassured his colleagues that they would never again have to fear the house cat. All that was needed was a little forward thinking. If someone would simply place a bell on the cat’s neck, all the mice would we warned that he is coming and they would be safe from that point on. All was well until someone asked the question, “Who bells the cat.” That was the end of that dialogue. So, I say to all those who would transform ID into something that is not, go for it. Bell the cat.StephenB
January 16, 2009
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JayM, well said.
We lose a great deal! We lose all the knowledge of the designer that we perforce ignore by focusing only on identifying design
That said, I would cautiously disagree with you when you said,
Not only can we not identify design without learning about the designer, without knowing something (or making assumptions) about the designer, we cannot detect design.
We needed no assumption about a designer to determine that a big bang happend, or that life originated from a single ancestor. In fact these were determined within the context of a committment to an "no designer" hypothesis. Further, without ever hypothesizing a designer, we can bump into the reality that life contains a quality (IRC) that cannot be reasonably explained by natural causes. From that point, we need only hypothesize designer(s), placing no qualities on the nature of the designer, and a bunch of qualities pop out in the evidence. (See post #8). ID certainly needs to avoid extracting properties for a designer from religious texts and perspectives -- especially so in light of the critical eye we ar getting by the materialists. Yet the evidence still calls to have some meat placed upon the nature of the designer. We need to allow that meat to be built up. Which, of course is the root of what you are saying.bFast
January 16, 2009
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StephenB @68:
Let’s reduce both arguments to their simplest essence.
Before I note a couple of disagreements with you, let me say that you summarized this very nicely.
On the one hand, Upright Biped illuminates the following fact: ID’s greatest strength is its capacity to refute the adversary on its own terms, materialistic science unaided by religion’s testimony. If we introduce religion into the paradigm, the “unaided” component is thus invalidated and the adversary wins by default. So, they say, “Aha, we knew all along that you were bootlegging your religion into your science and now we have proof.”
You are absolutely correct that testifying cannot have a role in the science. If there are ID proponents who recommend identifying the designer as God, I share your resistance to that idea. My view is slightly different. I don't see how we can avoid learning about the designer when identifying design. We are going to learn a great deal, in fact, and we shouldn't ignore that knowledge. While many of us believe the designer to be God, that is not an a priori assumption of ID theory. Therefore, the concerns about injecting religion are unfounded. Only those who assert that the designer must be God have to worry about knowledge of the designer being religious. It may turn out that God designed the designer. I don't think it will, but we have to follow the evidence to know. Cutting a bit in the interests of brevity brings me to:
[a] If we stay the course and continue to insist on the limited ID paradigm, we lose nothing.
We lose a great deal! We lose all the knowledge of the designer that we perforce ignore by focusing only on identifying design (more on this below). We also cripple ourselves intellectually because we cannot avoid learning about the nature of the designer when identifying design. Again I get the distinct impression that avoiding criticism from the methodological naturalists is too big a concern among ID proponents. They are never going to stop criticizing us, so there is no reason not to follow the evidence where it leads. We get no benefit from being less than forthright. After another little skip:
[b] If we change direction and try to determine the identity and character of the designer without first perfecting the art of analyzing his handiwork, we lose our sense of order and perspective. Look at it this way: We can’t even convince Darwinists of the elementary-school level observation that a DNA molecule was designed. Shouldn’t we get some kind of agreement from them on the basics before take them (and ourselves) to graduate school and speculate about what the designer had in mind when he did it? Wouldn’t that be the equivalent of trying to identify the perpetrator of a crime without first proving that a crime was committed?
This brings us to the flip side of the coin. Not only can we not identify design without learning about the designer, without knowing something (or making assumptions) about the designer, we cannot detect design. As I noted earlier in this thread, ID theory uses CSI to identify design. That implicitly assumes that the designer imparts CSI to designed objects. Without that assumption, there is no reason to consider a flagella designed but a rock not designed. When crimes are committed, the perpetrator is assumed to be human (outside of X-Files reruns) and that provides a huge amount of information. The same holds for archaeology and paleontology. It is simply impossible to infer design without some knowledge of the nature of the designer. JJJayM
January 16, 2009
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Davem(49):
“If we have learned that the earth, life, and humanity, is old, we have disproved something about the designer.” The Designer hasn’t changed. The only thing that’s been disproven is what someone said about the Designer.
Of course. However, if anything that has been proposed about the nature of God has been disproved by science, then stuff proposed about the nature of God is "falsifiable". If it is falsifiable, it is valid as scientific hypothesis.
"If there is a single ancestor, then that single ancestor was created by no more than a single intelligence*.” There is no reason for that conclusion. “Again, if there was a single big bang, either the big bang was a chance event, or the product of a single intelligence*.” Again, it doesn’t necessarily follow. Maybe fifty million beings put their minds together and created the big bang.
Please check out the * at the bottom of my post. I had already explicitly acknowledged the possibility of a group of minds acting in consert. However, the Greeks and Romans hypothesized a bunch of feuding gods. The big bang, and first life, were not the product of a bunch of feuding gods. Agains, conjectures about the nature of "gods" has been falsified -- by science.
Assuming that the Designer is also the Creator, then He is (relatively) infinitely more powerful and intelligent than we are.
In post 8, I said: :The designer that we learn something about is vastly more intelligent than we are." Pretty much the same thing, yes?
The third is that there is a gap between God and Man.
Isn't this what you have just said?
Since mathematics are True, and God is True (the Supreme Reality we are discussing), does it not follow that mathematics derive from the Mind of God? Or man?
I am convinced that mathematics was not derived from the mind of man. If we were to find alien intelligences at the same general level that we are at, we would discover that most of our mathematics would be the same. They may have not considered esoteric concepts like "imaginary number", they may well not be bent towards base 10. They would likely show our mathemeticians a thing or two. But math is discovered, not invented. Did God invent mathematics? I don't know. It could be that mathematics is just an inherent necessity. A physicist I know shares the following thought: A biologist fancies himself to be a chemist. A chemist fancies himself to be a physicist. A physicist fancies himself to be God. And God fancies himself to be a mathemetician. Just a thought.bFast
January 15, 2009
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Sal Gal...I appreciate the sentiments in 66. But ID brings the philosophy down to earth. You're a biochemist, you sequence DNA, and you find Hamlet embedded within. Where do you go from there? You'd be a fool to rule out design. Rigidly abiding by the dogma of methodological naturalism might well lead you astray. Let's cut through the dogma and, as Feynman said, "find things out".WeaselSpotting
January 15, 2009
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Let’s reduce both arguments to their simplest essence. On the one hand, Upright Biped illuminates the following fact: ID’s greatest strength is its capacity to refute the adversary on its own terms, materialistic science unaided by religion’s testimony. If we introduce religion into the paradigm, the “unaided” component is thus invalidated and the adversary wins by default. So, they say, “Aha, we knew all along that you were bootlegging your religion into your science and now we have proof.” On the other hand, Steve Fuller challenges this argument by saying that ID must not obsess over this scientific gambit. Otherwise, one gathers, it will never become a comprehensive theory with explanatory power similar to what the Darwinists claim to have. So, he pleads with us, “You can’t avoid the God question forever, so you might as well immerse yourself in it now.” I submit that Upright Biped has the better of the argument for two reasons. [a] If we stay the course and continue to insist on the limited ID paradigm, we lose nothing. If ID was meant to become more expansive in its outlook, a possible development that Upright Biped and Dave Scot seem to discount, it will happen not because our adversaries or our misguided friends prompt us from the outside but because some ID genius makes it possible from the inside. That kind of growth cannot be summoned at will, especially in the current hostile environment that the Darwinists have created. [b] If we change direction and try to determine the identity and character of the designer without first perfecting the art of analyzing his handiwork, we lose our sense of order and perspective. Look at it this way: We can’t even convince Darwinists of the elementary-school level observation that a DNA molecule was designed. Shouldn’t we get some kind of agreement from them on the basics before take them (and ourselves) to graduate school and speculate about what the designer had in mind when he did it? Wouldn’t that be the equivalent of trying to identify the perpetrator of a crime without first proving that a crime was committed? Translation---first things first.StephenB
January 15, 2009
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Sal Gal:67 Prayers do get answered sometimes,don`t they? Double checking that could prove intelligence>< without a doubt. Nice.Dr. Time
January 15, 2009
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Phillip Johnson, Just look at your enduring influence on the ID movement (32):
So ‘unknown processes’ are procedurally okay if your conclusions support materialism, but an ‘unknown designer’ is a procedural show stopper for ID? This is common ploy - apply to ID discussions what is not applied to discussions about materialistic science.
A common ploy is to put naturalism on trial as a conclusion of science, when it is in fact a working assumption, and then object rhetorically to arguments that scientists do not offer. Mainstream evolutionary theory is a body of naturalistic explanations. It supports naturalism no more than the top of a table supports the legs. The syntactic parallelism in "unknown processes" and "unknown designer" is rhetorically very clever. It encourages the reader to jump to the conclusion that the referents of the two phrases are as similar as the phrases themselves, when they are anything but. In mainstream science, the "laws of nature" are inferred relations on empirical observations. They are essentially "unknown processes" that "connect" antecedent and consequent events, and methodological naturalists never arrive at final acceptance of them. Methodological naturalists assume that the "gaps" between antecedent and consequent events can be "reduced" through further empirical observation. The heuristic value of this is that it keeps scientists looking, as opposed to claiming that there's nothing more to be seen. In intelligent design theory, the "designer" in "unknown designer" is non-material intelligence, an empirically unobservable entity granted physical reality, and not the material entity, if any, with which the intelligence is associated. The working assumptions of ID theory are so radically different from those of mainstream science that to refer to ID theory as "science" is to equivocate. If ID theory is scientific, then it is a theory within an alternative science, not an alternative theory within the science that includes Darwinian theory. In contrast to the methodological naturalist, the IDist explains some empirical observations by saying that unobservable intelligence accounts for them. This puts an end to empirical observation. The IDists says that some "gaps" cannot be "reduced" with further empirical investigation. What I find refreshing in Steve Fuller's remarks is that he confronts, without invoking the term, the "God of the Gaps" in ID. A design inference is intrinsically a claim that something we cannot observe empirically exists, has certain anthropomorphic properties, and manifests itself in what we do observe. Eschewing semantic contortions, an unobservable, goal-directed intelligence is supernatural, be it the intelligence of God or a God-like intelligence created by God.Sal Gal
January 15, 2009
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-----allanius: "Kant won the argument and changed Western culture by not attacking his ideological foes head-on; by employing an offensive-defensive strategy that plundered the rhetorical resources of his antagonists and put them on their heels. It is a strategy based on a thorough understanding of intellectual history and a knowledge of the weakness of one?s own position in the face of the prevailing paradigm." As Reid evidently understood, agnostics had been waiting for a pretext--any pretext for rejecting reason's testimony. I get it routinely from the agnostics on this blog who try to use some variation of Kantian skepticism as a means of evading reasoned arguments. Each time I point them to Adler's explanation about where Kant went wrong, they stop posting on the thread, pop up on new one, and recyle the same error.StephenB
January 15, 2009
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Upright BiPed @59: Thanks for the detailed response. I, too, have read SunTzu and find his wisdom applicable across more domains than military strategy and tactics. However, I'm not convinced that the military metaphor you use is entirely appropriate. For better or worse, methodological naturalism is one of the defining characteristics of modern science. The practice of modern science involves peer review. While I admire those in the ID movement who are trying to open up this process, for the foreseeable future any progress of ID theory (outside the ID theorists themselves) must take place within it. One consequence of this is that ID proponents do not have strict control over the scope of investigations of ID theory. As Dr. Fuller points out, knowledge of the designer can be inferred from the type of design that is detected. That observation is quickly made by anyone considering the issue, as is shown by the comments in this thread. There is no way to prevent ID opponents from making that observation, so ID theorists need to address it.
Please allow me to clarify. My view regarding what the opponents of design say about Steve Fuller’s subject matter is not based in fear. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of our strategic position; the very thing that Dr Fuller rationalizes away in his comments.
Our strategic position is that we need to address the nature of the designer, as well as can be determined from the designs we detect, because opponents of ID will do so whether we do or not. Personally, I think this is a very good thing. Detecting design is well and good, but learning more about the designer is positively exciting.
Frankly, a short trip around the web will demonstrate exactly what our opponents think; apparently they hope Dr Fuller (paraphrasing) “becomes the new face of ID”. In particular, they are tickled with his debating style and are especially pleased that he would willfully expose our flank to their strongest position.
If being able to learn not only that design exists but also something about the nature of the designer is our weakness, our strengths must be formidable! I don't mean to disregard your concerns, I simply don't understand them. How exactly will Dr. Fuller's recommendations harm the ID movement? None of the evolutionary biologists who oppose ID are going to abide by rules set by ID theorists to not consider the nature of the designer. Even if they would, they'd still be implacably opposed to ID theory. Limiting the theory arbitrarily doesn't achieve any goal that I can see.
It’s completely obvious that materialists instinctively ignore the evidence of design by talking about God? It is after all, their strength (it certainly isn’t the science). So what do we do? We feel we have to explain him. It’s no coincidence.
My understanding of Dr. Fuller's position isn't that we have to explain God, but that detection of design by its very nature provides information about the designer. There is no logical, scientific reason not to pursue that knowledge in conjunction with design detection. Obviously God is the most likely candidate for the designer, but the evidence might show otherwise. Refusing to follow the evidence where it leads makes us look much less credible than being willing to consider non-natural explanations. The truth is what it is.
By the way, you infer a kind of dishonesty among ID proponents by their “arbitrarily limiting the scope of ID theory for political or rhetorical reasons”. I disagree completely. ID is not limited for political reasons, that’s just another bite of the bait. ID is limited because that limitation is appropriate to the physical evidence. No one is saying that the evidence of design tells us nothing whatsoever about the designer. ID simply (and appropriately) says that this knowledge is extremely limited in a physical sense. We know when – apparently sometime after the beginning of the Universe. We know where – at the very least, on Earth. We argue over “how” and can only infer as to “why”. We can’t get to the “how” (where the design is) because our opponents want to tie us up on the “why” where the pickins’ are easy – and getting easier. Again, it’s no coincidence.
I do disagree about the amount of information we can obtain about the designer. As more and more examples of design such as the flagella and the blood clotting cascade are identified, ID theorists will be able to create testable hypotheses based on the patterns they find. This is how science leads to ever more knowledge. While you may not be attempting to limit the scope of ID theory for political or rhetorical reasons, I do get the impression that many of Dr. Fuller's detractors here are. As you detected, I am very uncomfortable with this approach -- I believe we need to be painfully forthright and the truth will out. Your explanation of how the nature of the designer can become a distraction is insightful. However, the only people who can distract ID theorists from researching the questions you detail are the researchers themselves. Let the ID opponents make all the noise they want. Results trump hot air. JJJayM
January 15, 2009
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ab @58:
The real issue is that is this or is it not within the context of ID? Design detection does not automatically also mean Designer detection and then maybe even the nature of the Designer detection. You think maybe we can draw a line? By Steve Fullers logic (and by the looks of many ID supporters here) we cannot. By ID’s logic, we can.
That's the logic I'm trying to understand. It seems that both Dr. Fuller and bFast have, in this very thread, demonstrated that knowledge of the nature of the designer is inherently derived from the detection of design. It simply can't be otherwise. Why should we shy away from the ability to learn as much as possible about the nature of the designer? How is failing to follow the evidence where it leads good science? JJJayM
January 15, 2009
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ab @57:
It just means “We don’t know.” That’s the same thing the materialist scientists say.
You got this one in reverse. “Materialists”(whatever that means) say they do know how it happened, not because they “know”, but because it must have been that way.
I was using the term "materialist" as a shorthand for "proponent of methodological naturalism." I don't think I've got the situation reversed -- both ID theory and Modern Evolutionary Theory (MET) result in the same answer: We don't know the mechanism at this time. MET says that the answer, when found, will have a natural explanation, ID theory says that other explanations are possible.
Behe, Dembski, are both arguing on a material basis, not immaterial. My point was, that they directly prove “unkown” (as in not currently explainable by present knowledge of processes - thus directly challenging darwinian pathways since those are the ones that can supposedly explain x[#] of object/s via RM&NS) while only indirectly make the case for design (or more explicitly the “designer”) since that decision is left in the eyes of the investigator. ie: anything indirect is faith-based
I don't follow that last conclusion. Just because the process is unknown doesn't mean that it isn't natural. X-rays are a classic example of a new natural explanation for previously unexplainable observations. This actually gets to the core of my point in this regard. The Explanatory Filter's conclusion of "Design" does not mean that the observed phenomena is a product of design, it seems to be just another way of saying "Currently Unknown." If, on the other hand, ID theorists follow Dr. Fuller's lead and recognize that detection of design does provide information about the nature of the designer, the possible discoveries are much more exciting. JJJayM
January 15, 2009
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Kant’s argument was that the transcendent cannot be known in the way Descartes proposed to know it for the very reason that it is transcendent. I guess that's fine in itself but Western Civilization is founded on the premise that God chose not to make Himself transcendent hence allowing Him to be known.tribune7
January 15, 2009
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Really, this is a great post from Upright BiPed (59). The best strategic model that comes to mind for undermining a paradigm is Kant, who lived in an age that was just as rapturously infatuated with Rationalism as we “moderns” are with Nihilism. Naturally there’s a problem with Rationalism. The antithesis of Scholasticism, it uses pure intellect in an attempt to create a new kind of science and heal all of the world’s ills. But pure intellect cannot be true science because it mitigates the senses. The “science” that came into the world under the spell of Descartes is rigid (as in his analytic geometry), theoretical (as in his theory of the affections), and, in the natural sciences, almost entirely based upon differences (observation based purely upon outward form, not experimentation; see Foucault). Understand, the white heat that led to Kant’s most effective rhetorical efforts was generated by the fact that he was actually on the scene when Hume was formulating his paradoxical “empiricism,” which is not science at all but philosophy, and in fact no less hostile to true empirical science than Plato. Hume’s Rationalism was the equivalent of Neo-Darwinism today. It was the paradigm in science as well as philosophy. As much as Kant loathed Rationalism, he was not able simply to attack it head-on. That would have been like attempting to row a butter boat against the tide. So he adopted a clever offensive-defensive strategy. First, he did not allow his hostility to Rationalism to be evident. He went out of his way to make himself sound like a conciliator and a friend of the critique of empirical methods that Rationalism represents. And then he did something extremely clever. He granted Descartes his cogito proposition. He did not attempt to resist Rationalism and its love of pure intellect directly; instead he agreed that the transcendent is pure intellect—and then claimed that for this very reason it was necessary to “set aside” the transcendent in order to reach any tangible conclusions about what is of value. Kant’s argument was that the transcendent cannot be known in the way Descartes proposed to know it for the very reason that it is transcendent. Any attempt to know it directly leads to nothingness, or the divide between sense and intellect seen in Scientific Rationalism. The only way to obtain substantive knowledge of the transcendent (according to him) was to set it aside and look for “transcendental” inductions in the goodness of the sensuous universe. Kant won the argument and changed Western culture by not attacking his ideological foes head-on; by employing an offensive-defensive strategy that plundered the rhetorical resources of his antagonists and put them on their heels. It is a strategy based on a thorough understanding of intellectual history and a knowledge of the weakness of one’s own position in the face of the prevailing paradigm. No such strategic genius is on display in the ill-fated attempt to resurrect “theodicy” as a rhetorical weapon against Naihilism. It is not possible to move forward in philosophy—and that is what this is—by attempting to return to the strategies of the past. Theodicy is no longer current because we already know what our ideological foes are going to say in response to it. Hume’s arguments are there for all to see—and they are devastating.allanius
January 15, 2009
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JayM, Please allow me to clarify. My view regarding what the opponents of design say about Steve Fuller’s subject matter is not based in fear. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of our strategic position; the very thing that Dr Fuller rationalizes away in his comments. Frankly, a short trip around the web will demonstrate exactly what our opponents think; apparently they hope Dr Fuller (paraphrasing) “becomes the new face of ID”. In particular, they are tickled with his debating style and are especially pleased that he would willfully expose our flank to their strongest position. Thus far, Dr. Fuller hasn’t shown an ounce of understanding toward the strategic position of ID. Our opponents recognize this, and are more than happy to waive at his parade. ID is making a frontal assault on one of the (if not the) most widely held, yet still debated, beliefs in modern academia – that all observations made by mankind are explained by the random interactions of particle matter, i.e. design is an illusion. To back up their claim, they have (for all practical purposes) the entire global science and media machines on their side. I know this for a fact, I work there. In making an assault on ideological materialism there are a few tidbits of vast historical wisdom that apply, regardless if anyone cares to know them. They are the rules of opposing force. Like most profound tidbits of wisdom, the sentences are short but the depth of meaning is most often understood only after generous reflection. The first little wisdom is the one you unknowingly raise: that is to beware (or be aware) of the defended position. It says to know everything about the defended position, and to treat that knowledge with the utmost rationality. It should be obvious; to make a frontal assault, the primary strategic concern is the strength of the defended position (emotion, particularly fear, has nothing to do with it). The next tidbit is to attack on a narrow front. This, again, seems to be obvious if you take into account that one force is small while the other is large. Attacking on a narrow front is a conscious decision to balance the offense against the greater strength of the defense. It is a disciplined recognition of reality. Yet here we are, apparently doing our damndest to broaden our attack, and apparently we’re not contented to just ignore what we are doing, but also willing to shoot ourselves in the foot while doing it. The chosen subject matter of this new ID runs completely opposite to one of the load-bearing strengths of the old ID (we attack materialism on material grounds alone). The fact that this thread exists at all is because ID sometimes takes the bait. It’s completely obvious that materialists instinctively ignore the evidence of design by talking about God? It is after all, their strength (it certainly isn’t the science). So what do we do? We feel we have to explain him. It’s no coincidence. Material ideologues don’t make their argument with intricate details of emerging biological complexity; they have a spaghetti monster instead. That’s no coincidence either. One final tidbit about making a frontal assault - always attack the weakness inherent in strength. This too is being given away. Does anyone actually believe that the complexity of the God/Man relationship is the weakness in their strength? It’s a fool’s bait, ripe for the taking. Just add it up: we ignore the position against us, so we attack our opponents at their strongest position, and we sell out our own strength in the process. Just perfect. May I also add an apology to Dr Fuller for sounding stern, he is certainly more intelligent that I, and far more trained (as are most of the participants on this site), but this strategic lapse of reason is just a head-shaker. - - - - By the way, you infer a kind of dishonesty among ID proponents by their “arbitrarily limiting the scope of ID theory for political or rhetorical reasons”. I disagree completely. ID is not limited for political reasons, that’s just another bite of the bait. ID is limited because that limitation is appropriate to the physical evidence. No one is saying that the evidence of design tells us nothing whatsoever about the designer. ID simply (and appropriately) says that this knowledge is extremely limited in a physical sense. We know when – apparently sometime after the beginning of the Universe. We know where – at the very least, on Earth. We argue over “how” and can only infer as to “why”. We can’t get to the “how” (where the design is) because our opponents want to tie us up on the “why” where the pickins’ are easy – and getting easier. Again, it’s no coincidence.Upright BiPed
January 14, 2009
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The real issue is that is this or is it not within the context of ID? Design detection does not automatically also mean Designer detection and then maybe even the nature of the Designer detection. You think maybe we can draw a line? By Steve Fullers logic (and by the looks of many ID supporters here) we cannot. By ID's logic, we can.ab
January 14, 2009
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"It just means “We don’t know.” That’s the same thing the materialist scientists say." You got this one in reverse. "Materialists"(whatever that means) say they do know how it happened, not because they "know", but because it must have been that way. Behe, Dembski, are both arguing on a material basis, not immaterial. My point was, that they directly prove "unkown" (as in not currently explainable by present knowledge of processes - thus directly challenging darwinian pathways since those are the ones that can supposedly explain x[#] of object/s via RM&NS) while only indirectly make the case for design (or more explicitly the "designer") since that decision is left in the eyes of the investigator. ie: anything indirect is faith-based As I explained in my last comment, as long as the "unknown" is being generated based on the "known" input, ID is performing science, the science of design detection and without directly linking any causal relationships to the designer. Darwinian fantasy, overtime it will run out of "known" processes to explain it, they will be forced to give up and will be forced to confront front-loading hypothesis or perhaps a alternative hypothesis, if not already.ab
January 14, 2009
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When they seek to more precisely define God, they always end up limiting God. Definers of God also take upon themselves a certain arrogance. Their definitions depend on the ultimate nature of reality, and who are we to know that? When they cast God from time and make him determine all his acts from the beginning, they emasculate God. He is no longer the Hebrew God of history. He cannot change, he cannot act, he cannot learn. It all leads directly to Deism. The God of the theologians becomes more Plato’s God than the God of Scripture. We really don’t know that there is a perspective from which all of cosmic time can be viewed. We really don’t know for absolute certain that the universe had a beginning. And we really don’t know for certain whether God is inside or outside of the cosmos he has made. And we really don’t know for sure that there are not things that God has not made. But being reductionists par excellance, theologians end up reducing God to Aristotelian “substance”—which is what’s left after they have abstracted away everything that can be named. David, in contemplating the transcendence of God, exclaims (Psalms 139:6): “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.” So let’s not demean theology—it’s the queen of the sciences. But let's ask for a little humility, just enough to know that we really don’t know very much.Rude
January 14, 2009
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ScottAndrews @43:
JayM:
In fact, ID theory goes beyond this minimum by concluding “Design” only when no known natural process could have created the object under consideration. From that comes the implicit claim that not only does the designer exist, the designer does not use natural processes when designing.
No natural process can produce an automobile. That doesn’t mean that no natural processes are used to build automobiles.
I'd modify that to be "No non-intelligent process can produce an automobile." Would you agree with that change?
It’s not that the designer can’t use a natural process. The designer just can’t be one.
Again, wouldn't this be more compatible with ID theory if it were phrased "It's not that the designer can't use unintelligent processes. The designer just must be intelligent."? In any case, I like the automobile analogy because it emphasizes the main point I've been trying to make in this thread. Detecting design in an automobile tells us an enormous amount about the designers. We can tell their rough size. We can tell that they can manipulate wheels, pedals, levers, and knobs. We can tell that they exist in an environment that permits internal combustion engines to operate. We can even tell that their environment includes a significant amount of relatively flat, smooth surfaces on which the automobile operates. Now the nature of the designer becomes a scientific question. We can hypothesize based on our observations of the design, make predictions based on those hypotheses, and test those predictions by, for example, looking for flat, smooth surfaces. Finding roads gives us even more information about the nature of the designer, and the process repeats. Why should we ignore these exciting possibilities just because some materialist on a blog somewhere might say something nasty? JJJayM
January 14, 2009
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Upright BiPed @40:
I can picture drooling Darwinist’s from Wikipedia just waiting until ID posits who the designer is or what it maybe thinking. It will solidify ID more from their perspective, not ID’s.
And it is the unbelievably misguided attempts like Dr Fuller’s (now finding support from UD regs) that will provide them what they need. They are cheering. They intend to hang up the evidence ad infinitum.
As I just noted in reply to ab, we can't let fear of what our opponents will say dictate how far we follow the evidence. Detection of design requires and informs knowledge of the nature of the designer. That's a good thing! Arbitrarily limiting the scope of ID theory for political or rhetorical reasons is, frankly, not in alignment with the value system of many of the participants here. Let's be brutally honest. The truth is the truth. JJJayM
January 14, 2009
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ab @39 (second point):
The second problem is that, simply by applying the Filter, we are implying that the designer does not use Chance and Known Processes to design
It is your fault you are putting the designer on ID’s shoulders, not ID’s. There seems to be a demand for the nature of the designer in the general public, it is absolutely ludicrous to think this demand can be supplied.
Why? Determining that something is designed requires some understanding of the nature of the designer or there is no way to distinguish between designed and undesigned objects. Unless you're willing to say, as ID theory does, that the designer utilizes CSI, for example, then there is no more reason to consider the flagella to be designed than there is to consider a rock designed. (There is, of course, a good theological argument that both are designed.)
Not to say that it can’t be supplied in a non-scientific language where data is of no importance.
I don't understand this statement.
I can picture drooling Darwinist’s from Wikipedia just waiting until ID posits who the designer is or what it maybe thinking. It will solidify ID more from their perspective, not ID’s.
There is a strong argument, part of which has been made by Dr. Fuller and other participants in this thread, that the detection of design inherently reveals something of the nature of the designer. To reject that solely for political reasons is disingenuous. We should be following the evidence where it leads, regardless of what others say. JJJayM
January 14, 2009
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ab @39:
The first is that we have to assert at least the existence of a designer or the possible results become Chance, Known Processes, and Unknown Processes.
To delimit chance and known processes with unknown processes is the point. ID doesn’t start off with the assertion there is at least one designer.
But it does, in the very name of the theory. The Explanatory Filter doesn't claim "Unknown Process," it claims "Design," with all off the connotations associated with that word.
If that is the initial point then there is no point since its not science. ID first takes into account known processes (which is in fact mostly chance-based since that is what is taught isn’t it?)
I'm uncomfortable with the term "chance based." A lot of chemistry and biochemistry is pretty deterministic (although chemical reactions can go in both directions and do have probability distributions). My understanding of ID theory is that such non-random natural processes are also included in the "non-Design" category.
as well as known processes about what “intelligence” has produced and produces everyday in terms of complex systems (but this only for putting objects on the table to be examined, since we are more familiar with them at the present ie: such as a bacerial flagellum) If known processes are quite incapable then unknown processes are left. As long as the greater unknown is being generated overtime ID is doing its job, which is, it had effectively detected a ‘unknown’ in each circumstance by applying existing known processes that supposedly explain biological functions. That is design detection
That's the problem I was trying to point out. The Explanatory Filter's result of "Design" doesn't mean what people usually think of when they use the word "design." It just means "We don't know." That's the same thing the materialist scientists say. Now the interesting thing to me is that, as more phenomena like the bacterial flagella and the blood clotting cascade are identified, we can use the scientific tools of observation and logic to possibly identify common characteristics. These characteristics will necessarily give us information about the nature of the designer. That makes understanding the designer a scientific endeavor. I find that exciting. JJJayM
January 14, 2009
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Upright BiPed @38:
What is central? What ID says about the designer is that the designer can accomplish what chance and neccesity does not accomplish alone.
That's all that some ID proponents want to discuss, but it is not all that can be inferred from ID theory. See bFast's @8 and my @36 for examples of other attributes of the designer that follow directly from ID theory. JJJayM
January 14, 2009
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