Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Judge Jones Discussed at 3quarksdaily

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In light of Judge Jones coming to Southern Methodist University today and tomorrow, for what seems to be an unbalanced discussion of ID, I thought I would add some clarity to the affair with these remarks by Nick Smyth  from the blog 3quarksdaily pertaining to Jones’s poor reasoning in his 2005 Kitzmiller decision as to what constitutes science:

For any formal definition of science, it either excludes too much, or includes too much, or both. It is enough to say that today, even those writing anti-pseudoscience manifestos concede that it is not possible to give a complete definition of what constitutes science or pseudoscience. Rather, they tend to revert to weak, vague and totally indefensible “ballpark” definitions that are designed to exclude specific targets. Judge Jones’ 2005 ruling in the Kitzmiller creationism case is a recent example:

ID [Intelligent Design] fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. (Jones 2005, 64)

It’s hard to properly describe how bad this ruling was, how incredibly vulnerable it is to logical and factual attack.

Take, for example, the second and third requirement. If we banish everyone who has either (2) seriously employed a false argument, or (3) has had some position refuted, it’s hard to imagine that there will be many scientists left to speak of. These requirements are patently absurd.

The first requirement doesn’t fare much better, for its meaning turns on the definition of “natural”, and to my knowledge no-one has been able to define this term meaningfully without resorting to the claim that “nature” is the stuff that natural science talks about. Circularity looms.

However, even if we can define these terms responsibly, this “ground rule” is of questionable historical validity. For example, we are going to have to explain why Newton’s acceptance of alchemical principles and Kepler’s devout mysticism don’t disqualify them as scientists.

This is a serious problem. It’s fine to talk about science in a loose and squishy sense, as a historical phenomenon or as a diverse, loosely related set of practises or what have you, but once you start denying someone else social and political power on the grounds that you are scientific and they are not, you’d better have more to say than simply “your theory is supernatural”. Otherwise, you will quickly be reduced to claiming that you just know science when you see it, and well, isn’t that just the sort of maddening claim that those pesky “pseudoscientists” love to make?

by Nick Smyth
Comments
CannuckianYankee [from 81] "A circuit inside a computer does not know that it is a part of a greater whole either, but it is part of a system that was designed for a purpose. The circuit too cannot act in any way other than what it does by its nature. This does not prove that a cell is necessarily a part of a designed system, but it destroys the analogy you made." It might do if I was saying that this is positive evidence that cells were NOT designed. I wasn't. I was saying it gives us no reason to suppose cells WERE designed. They behave like chemicals - their behaviour gives us no evidence of design. "I said: the eye has no purpose. You: Well a lot of scientists, including atheists like Richard Dawkins would disagree with you here. In fact, this is the premise of Dawkins’ book ‘The Blind Watchmaker’ – how evolution through cumulative natural selection can account for the ‘apparent design’ in biological systems." The key word here is 'apparent'. He is not saying there IS any real design. "You don’t think the purpose for eyes is so that we can see? What other purpose would there be – so we can predict the future? Is there no purpose for the eye? Now I’m confused, because most Darwinists I have talked to would argue that the purpose of the eye is to give us a survival advantage, which I wouldn’t argue against. It clearly does that. So apparently even Darwinism confirms ID." I would indeed say the eye has no purpose. It has a FUNCTION - a use, but that is different. It does indeed confer on it's hosts a survival advantage (and perhaps that is what you mean by the term), but to say it has a purpose actively supposes someone designing and creating an eye with a specific purpose in mind. Perhaps an example will help - some otters swim on their backs with a stone balanced on their bellies which they hit nuts against to crack them. All very sweet to watch. But would you say the PURPOSE of the rock was to have rocks smashed against it? It that the defining act of it's creation? Surely not. It is a function it can and does serve, and does so well, but no-one made those rocks just so otters could use them as anvils. "What we see in nature that has the appearance of design for a purpose, actually was designed for that purpose. This realization is a natural human intuition that is further confirmed by the evidence." Confirmed by what evidence, exactly? Could you please provide active evidence which points to design? I would be very interested to read it. "The evidences are present in cells, DNA within the cell, and in other biological systems, and ID predicts that more evidences are forthcoming as we discover the immense complexity and internal interactions within biological systems." But what does ID predict this evidence will be? What does ID expect to find? If ID is a legitimate scientific theory, it must made testable predictions and be falsifiable. What specific predictions does it made, and what evidence would falsify it?Ritchie
October 1, 2009
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Now let me ask you this. If there is evidence for design from a ’supernatural’ entity, do you believe that meth nat excludes such evidence or not? Well, I'm no philosopher of science, but off the top of my head, I'd say methodological naturalism applies to methods, not conclusions. So if the evidence is garnered using scientific observations, then sure. I've never seen any such evidence on the part of ID or traditional creationism, though.Learned Hand
September 30, 2009
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Learned Hand, "Is it your contention that the principal was first applied in 1983, or only that the words were coined then?" Oh I have no doubt that the principle was applied long before it was coined. The principle was applied by Darwin and others. I think the point is that the principle is not applied by all scientists. I.e., you do not have to leave out the possibility of the supernatural - particularly if you don't define what 'supernatural' means. For many scientists the question never enters their minds, simply because they know you really can't make the distinction. No, the term methodolocial naturalim for a Darwinist, means much more than it would mean to a physicist or a chemist, who don't have to deal with origin of life issues, or apparent design issues. And besides that, Darwinists don't use methodological naturalism in the clear meaning of the term. The term means that you look for natural causes - not merely speculate on them. Now let me ask you this. If there is evidence for design from a 'supernatural' entity, do you believe that meth nat excludes such evidence or not?CannuckianYankee
September 30, 2009
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Correction to #84: where it says "....can tell us why having a breathing apparatus through which we also breathe gives..." should be "through which we also eat."CannuckianYankee
September 30, 2009
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Ritchie, me: “We see purpose all around” you: "Do we? What would you say the purpose is of the appendix" http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/news/20071012/appendix-may-have-purpose I don't know, but just because we haven't yet found a purpose for the appendix in no way implies that there is none. There are many organs in human anatomy for which a purpose was not known at one time or another. you: "I could give many examples of apparent ‘bad design’. We have too many teeth for our mouths. We eat and breathe through the same pipe, leading to many deaths by choking. We have blind spots – totally avoidable if our eyes had been installed the other way around. Our spines are lousy solutions to the problem of upright posture (any engineer will tell you to support an upright structure with four cross-braced columns, not a single column) leading to many back problems." Such objections have been answered here a kazillion times. In order to have optimal design, you have to eliminate certain other areas of optimal function. What we have in humnans is the best possible design without forfeiting optimal function. You state that we have too many teath. By who's criteria. Is there a tooth Tzar somewhere? Deaths by choking because we breathe and eat through the same pipe? Are you kidding? Most deaths by choking can be prevented through propper healthcare and propper eating habits. Avoiding acidic foods, which are known to cause strictures in the esophagus, and other problems with the gastro-esophageal system, can lead to better health, and less danger from choking on food. In nursing homes, patients who have a propensity to choking have their food chopped or puried. Perhaps some of our more medically able posters can tell us why having a breathing apparatus through which we also breathe gives us an optimal advantage as opposed to two separate pipes. What do we lose with a 'two-pipe' system? Blind spots? you know if you remove the roof, front hood, back hood, floor and all doors from your car you also remove most blind spots? Would you want a car like that? So because we have back problems we are poorly designed? Back problems can also be avoided. I know for example my own mother had terrible back problems when she was in her 40s, but that was because she was overweight. When she lost the weight, she no longer has the problems. I understand that there are people who have back problems that are not due to weight issues, but there are situations, which contribute to back problems, it's not simply a matter of a poorly designed system. If that were the real issue, we'd all have back problems - sounds to reason.CannuckianYankee
September 30, 2009
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The term ‘Methodological Naturalism’ – meaning that science excludes supernatural causes was first used for that purpose around 1983 by Wheaton College Professior of Philosophy, Paul de Vries. . . . The specific use of this term, with this particular meaning does not go back to Galileo, or anyone else, but came about very recently, and has been used to keep all discussion or interest in ’supernatural’ causes out of science – without defining exactly what is meant by ’supernatural.’ Is it your contention that the principal was first applied in 1983, or only that the words were coined then?Learned Hand
September 30, 2009
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For the fifth time, what does supernatural mean? The philosophy of Judge Jones assumes it to mean religious, but his philosophy, and what supernatural/natural paradigm he conceives of, is the real crux, so, again, what is your definition of natural and supernatural that you will posit to defend his philosophy? What is my definition to defend his philosophy? Apples and oranges. My definition only applies to my philosophy, and his to his. I still don’t know what answer to give you for myself; I’m still inclined to say that “supernatural” causes are those that are not reliably predictable or repeatable given identical circumstances. There are holes in that definition, though. The court’s definition is probably cognizable along similar lines. If you want to look at it in detail, I think you’d have to go to the testimony. I think the court is using the concepts of natural and supernatural as testified to by the expert witnesses. And don’t say, well, the IDists said supernatural, for what that means to the philosophical presuppositions of those who hear it is what is important and the only point worth debating, becasue Nick Smyth’s defeat of Judge Jones’s second two points of what constitutes as science is obvious. I don’t understand the first two clauses of this sentence. The third clause makes it a moot point; your assertion that Mr. Smyth’s “defeat” of the opinion “is obvious” is, frankly, silly. Mr. Smyth is simply lying when he extends the court’s reasoning to “everyone who has either (2) seriously employed a false argument, or (3) has had some position refuted.” I note that you’ve failed to show us any language in the opinion that supports this clumsy rewrite. “It’s obvious” is an easy rhetorical trick, but it’s no refutation of my argument that Mr. Smyth’s words are fundamentally different from the court’s. That is, of course, begging the question, for the question of life’s origin is still an open question, isn’t it? Once again, you’ve confused me, although it may just be that I’m coming back to this thread after some time away. The language of mine that you quoted refers to the court’s point that ID is crippled by the same dualism that doomed creation science; is your argument that creation science isn’t doomed? You’re wrong. From a legal perspective, creation science was doomed by the Supreme Court, and only the Supreme Court can undo that judgment. The Kitzmiller court was bound by that ruling. And to claim that the question answered that ID is logically unsound is itself logically unsound, for it begs the question, it assumes as it’s its conclusion what is in question. Another baffling sentence; what does “that the question answered that ID is logically unsound” mean? I think that you don’t understanding the point at issue here; you may need to review the cases Kitzmiller cites. The specific argument here is not that ID is inherently logically unsound, but that it relies on an unsound dualism. The courts realized when creation science was in vogue that merely criticizing science is not the same thing as presenting a positive case for creationism; it’s not a binary choice. ID makes the same dualist assumptions—that criticizing science is the same as building a case for ID. It’s not. The dualism that equates “it’s too complicated to have evolved” with “it must have been designed” is logically unsound, because there’s no logical connection between the two. I know I say this all the time, but I mean it - read the opinion. The excerpted language re: dualism is even right up there in the post: it’s point two of three.Learned Hand
September 30, 2009
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Ritchie, "What I am saying is that this is not how genes work. They contain only instructions for how cells are to behave in the presence of other chemicals. That is all. A cell does not ‘know’ it is part of a much greater whole. It does not ‘working towards’ an ulimate goal. It simply cannot help doing anything other than what it has to – in much the same way as chemicals cannot help but react in certain ways to the presense of other chemicals." Are you saying that because a cell does not 'know' its purpose, that it can't be a part of a purposeful designed system? A circuit inside a computer does not know that it is a part of a greater whole either, but it is part of a system that was designed for a purpose. The circuit too cannot act in any way other than what it does by its nature. This does not prove that a cell is necessarily a part of a designed system, but it destroys the analogy you made. I asked: “Does the human eye have a purpose? Does it have cohesion? Does it provide a goal of sight for the individual?” You replied: "To be technical, no (well, cohesion yes, but not the other two). It has a function – to see. But to have a purpose it would have to have been purposefully designed, which it does not appear to have been." Well a lot of scientists, including atheists like Richard Dawkins would disagree with you here. In fact, this is the premise of Dawkins' book 'The Blind Watchmaker' - how evolution through cumulative natural selection can account for the 'apparent design' in biological systems. Furthermore, your statement: "to have a purpose it would have to have been purposefully designed, which it does not appear to have been" only begs the question. You don't think the purpose for eyes is so that we can see? What other purpose would there be - so we can predict the future? Is there no purpose for the eye? Now I'm confused, because most Darwinists I have talked to would argue that the purpose of the eye is to give us a survival advantage, which I wouldn't argue against. It clearly does that. So apparently even Darwinism confirms ID. Yes, I would agree with you that in order for the eye to have purpose it would have to have been designed, and this is a main point of ID. What we see in nature that has the appearance of design for a purpose, actually was designed for that purpose. This realization is a natural human intuition that is further confirmed by the evidence. The evidences are present in cells, DNA within the cell, and in other biological systems, and ID predicts that more evidences are forthcoming as we discover the immense complexity and internal interactions within biological systems. Question-begging is not going to make that problem go away.CannuckianYankee
September 30, 2009
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Adel DiBagno "I think one needs to go back at least as far as Galileo to put one’s finger on the explicit design of methodological naturalism. Of course, the seeds of that methodology go back further in history, through William Ockham and Aristotle to the origins of Greek science." The term 'Methodological Naturalism' - meaning that science excludes supernatural causes was first used for that purpose around 1983 by Wheaton College Professior of Philosophy, Paul de Vries. http://www.asa3.org/archive/asa/200308/0439.html http://www.idthefuture.com/2006/05/who_coined_the_term_methodolog.html http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Methodological_naturalism The specific use of this term, with this particular meaning does not go back to Galileo, or anyone else, but came about very recently, and has been used to keep all discussion or interest in 'supernatural' causes out of science - without defining exactly what is meant by 'supernatural.'CannuckianYankee
September 30, 2009
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LH, "The judge’s point is that ID is still based on a false argument. It is actively promoting the discredited and logically unsound dualism that doomed creation science." That is, of course, begging the question, for the question of life's origin is still an open question, isn't it? And to claim that the question answered that ID is logically unsound is itself logically unsound, for it begs the question, it assumes as it's conclusion what is in question. ID is not logically unsound. Logically unsound means that within a deductive argument the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, because the premise is wrong. For ID to be logically unsound, it would have to be a deductive argument, but it is an abductive argument, and so is the position that evolution occurred over deep time without the aid of observation. The argument from Judge Jones as to what constitutes science is so logically unsound I can attack it from multiple angles.Clive Hayden
September 28, 2009
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LH, ------"The court didn’t find that ID accepts only supernatural causes. The problem is that ID “invokes and permits supernatural causes.” For the fifth time, what does supernatural mean? The philosophy of Judge Jones assumes it to mean religious, but his philosophy, and what supernatural/natural paradigm he conceives of, is the real crux, so, again, what is your definition of natural and supernatural that you will posit to defend his philosophy? And don't say, well, the IDists said supernatural, for what that means to the philosophical presuppositions of those who hear it is what is important and the only point worth debating, becasue Nick Smyth's defeat of Judge Jones's second two points of what constitutes as science is obvious.Clive Hayden
September 28, 2009
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CannuckianYankee [71] Thanks for your good efforts to answer my question, which was:
As a flourish, StephenB helpfully added that methodological naturalism was “designed specifically to forbid design inferences…” Who was the designer of that specific aim? I’d like to see some evidence for that claim.
In reply, you quoted Barbara Forrest and Eugenie Scott, who discussed the irrelevance of supernatural agencies to scientific investigations. Since neither Forrest nor Scott specifically designed methodological naturalism, I don't find your reply responsive to my question. With regard to your quote of Dawkins, he is entitiled to his hobbies, but he is in the same boat as Forrest and Scott. Not responsible for designing methodological naturalism. I think one needs to go back at least as far as Galileo to put one's finger on the explicit design of methodological naturalism. Of course, the seeds of that methodology go back further in history, through William Ockham and Aristotle to the origins of Greek scienceAdel DiBagno
September 28, 2009
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CannuckianYankee [from 73] "Your response curiously demonstrates purpose; termites doing what they are ‘programmed’ to do, cells obeying rules, etc." I put 'programmed' in inverted commas because it is quite a misleading term. Obviously 'programmed' implies a programmer but this is not the case. Cells simply act as chemicals must. "By what scientific measure can you assert that there is no overall cohesion, plan or blueprint for the way organisms act in nature?" What I am saying is that this is not how genes work. They contain only instructions for how cells are to behave in the presence of other chemicals. That is all. A cell does not 'know' it is part of a much greater whole. It does not 'working towards' an ulimate goal. It simply cannot help doing anything other than what it has to - in much the same way as chemicals cannot help but react in certain ways to the presense of other chemicals. "Does the human eye have a purpose? Does it have cohesion? Does it provide a goal of sight for the individual?" To be technical, no (well, cohesion yes, but not the other two). It has a function - to see. But to have a purpose it would have to have been purposefully designed, which it does not appear to have been. 'Providing sight' is not a goal an eye aspires towards. An eye does not aspire to anything, and nor do the cells which make it up. There is simply no 'want' there. No eye, or any part of any eye has ever wanted anything or tried to achieve anything. It simply cannot help doing anything other than what it does - and Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection provides a sufficient explaination of how it came about - an explaination which is rationally to be preferred over ID because it invokes no superatural designer and can be supported by observable evidence. "We see purpose all around" Do we? What would you say the purpose is of the appendix - an organ which serves no function and might kill us if we get appendacitis? What would you say is the purpose of goosebumps? Most mammals have small muscles on their skin which make their fur stand up when they contract them - when they are cold or frightened. Humans have largely lost their body hair, but retain goosebumps. What is the purpose there? I could give many examples of apparent 'bad design'. We have too many teeth for our mouths. We eat and breathe through the same pipe, leading to many deaths by choking. We have blind spots - totally avoidable if our eyes had been installed the other way around. Our spines are lousy solutions to the problem of upright posture (any engineer will tell you to support an upright structure with four cross-braced columns, not a single column) leading to many back problems. Then there are mental problems. What purpose is there in depression, schizophrenia, insomnia, delusions, paranoia, OCD, phobias, mania, autism, and the many other disorders I could name. 1 in 3 suffer from some kind of mental issue at some point in their lives. The conclusion seems to be that if we were indeed designed, we were designed rather poorly.Ritchie
September 28, 2009
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CannuckianYankee [from 72] "Darwin did not draw up ‘the’ theory of evolution. He drew up ‘a’ theory of evolution. What we call ToE is essentially Darwin’s theory; however, there were theories of evolution that preceded Darwin – Lamarckism, for example." Alright, I'll concede the point. After a brief look around on the net, it seems Darwin drew up the theory of natural selection. "Random mutation and natural selection acting without purpose or goal. The evidence does not suggest that this is what occurs in nature – rather, it is a combining of evidence with a commitment to meth nat." I'd like to discuss the following case study: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEtnyx0Yo9I What do you think is going on here if not random mutation and natural selection acting without purpose or goal? "If Darwinists were truly interested in going wherever the evidence may lead, they would not be dogmatically committed to a philosophical assertion – blind forces of nature accounting for the complexity in biological organisms." Why, what evidence would challenge this view? Could you provide links to studies and scientific journal reports of evidence which contradicts it please? "You state: “If you have a theory which disputes what you call ‘Darwinian evoltuion’, then your theory is not evolution.” That’s news to me." Alright, I'll give you that one. Suffice to say that for many, 'evolution' is synonymous with 'Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection' (though not for you, apparently).Ritchie
September 28, 2009
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CannuckianYankee [from 70] “ - There is no evidence for anything ORGANIC being designed in nature. - And that’s the whole point of contention between ID theorists and Darwinists." Let me recap, if I may. You think the origin of life is more likely to be a result of design than a result of natural processes because, you claim, there is observable evidence for design. Yet when asked to present some, you only point to the origin of life, (which is not observable) and SUPPOSE it is an example of design? And you think ToE is circular? "Does it not spark your curiosity that animals and humans purposefully design things that are very complex?" I'm not sure if 'curiosity' is quite the right word. I appreciate feats on engineering and manufacture in the natural world. But that is not how organisms are made. They are not 'put together' or 'constructed' like a car, and house or a dam. They grow and form themselves via a process which involves no 'design'. "Are you satisfied that Darwinian ToE has sufficiently accounted for this apart from the question-begging and proverbial just-so stories, which permeate the Darwinian intellectual landscape?" Well I accept that maybe there are things which evolution has not accounted for - not that I could cite any off-hand. But even if that is the case, I see no reason to believe there is any design in the development or organisms. For me to do that I would first have to be shown some.Ritchie
September 28, 2009
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Ritchie, "At every step along the way, we see only seperate cells obeying local rules. Like termites building a colony, they simply do what they are ‘programmed’ to do in their little part of the body/nest. But there is no overall cohesion, no grand plan, no blueprint for the end product. What would you call this if not blind forces without goal or purpose? It’s not as though individual cells can ‘want’ anything, or any foresight…" Your response curiously demonstrates purpose; termites doing what they are 'programmed' to do, cells obeying rules, etc. "Then you state: But there is no overall cohesion, no grand plan, no blueprint for the end product." How can you know this? By what scientific measure can you assert that there is no overall cohesion, plan or blueprint for the way organisms act in nature? Does the human eye have a purpose? Does it have cohesion? Does it provide a goal of sight for the individual? Again - by what scientific measure can you assert that there is no recognizable purpose in nature? I think the opposite is true. We see purpose all around - it's only that Darwinists choose to ignore it in favor of a philosophical counterpunctal neglect of the obvious.CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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"Errrrr, you’re right there! Charles Darwin drew up the theory of evolution. Modern science has built upon it, sure, but in essence it is still the same thoery. If you have a theory which disputes what you call ‘Darwinian evoltuion’, then your theory is not evolution. It is not my failing to distinguish between them, it really is that they are the same thing." Darwin did not draw up 'the' theory of evolution. He drew up 'a' theory of evolution. What we call ToE is essentially Darwin's theory; however, there were theories of evolution that preceded Darwin - Lamarckism, for example. Now when I say that ID supporters and theorists do not dispute evolution, I'm refering to evolution in general as change in the biological features of organisms - the sort of evolution proposed generally by Darwin and his predecessors. In fact, ID theorists in general do not dispute the overall Darwinian theory. They dispute specifically the parts of the theory, which are not observational, but speculative - based on the presumption of methodological naturalism. What would these be? Specifically - Random mutation and natural selection acting without purpose or goal. The evidence does not suggest that this is what occurs in nature - rather, it is a combining of evidence with a commitment to meth nat. If Darwinists were truly interested in going wherever the evidence may lead, they would not be dogmatically committed to a philosophical assertion - blind forces of nature accounting for the complexity in biological organisms. You state: "If you have a theory which disputes what you call ‘Darwinian evoltuion’, then your theory is not evolution." That's news to me. There are several theories of evolution that are not Darwinian. Furthermore the distinction of 'Darwinian evolution' is used by Darwinists themselves. It is a valid distinction from say Lamarckian evolution or theistic evolution, or the Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution and others. In fact, Darwin's notion of natural selection was not widely accepted among scientists until the 1930s, while general evolution was accepted long before Darwin. Theories of evolution can be traced as far back as the Ancient Greeks. So Darwin is not the father of evolution (which is NOT the same thing as Darwinian evolution as you assert), he is the father of a specific mechanism for evolution - random mutation and natural selection.CannuckianYankee
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"As a flourish, StephenB helpfully added that methodological naturalism was “designed specifically to forbid design inferences…” Who was the designer of that specific aim? I’d like to see some evidence for that claim." I refer you to an argicle written by Barbara Forrest: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/barbara_forrest/naturalism.html where she concludes: "This means that we are saying--again, tentatively rather than categorically--that we do not live in a supernaturally governed cosmos, and every expansion of scientific understanding, especially the understanding of human existence, e.g., of consciousness and the origin of life, solidifies and confirms this denial. Science, because of its reliance upon methodological naturalism, lends no support to belief in the supernatural. Consequently, philosophical naturalism, because of its own grounding in methodological naturalism, has no room for it either. While for the supernaturalist, this absence may be the chief complaint against both science and methodological naturalism, for the philosophical naturalist, it is the source of the greatest confidence in both." Forrest is careful to say "tentatively rather than categorically" as if to relieve any suspicion. However, by this very admission one can question the entire premise. If meth nat only tentatively dismisses supernatural causation, then meth nat, by her own admission, is incomplete. Furthermore, Forrest makes the unjustifiable claim that meth nat was the method, which got us to where we are in science; completely ignoring the forebears to our current scientific understanding, who did not hold to purely naturalistic assumptions. I also refer you to Eugenie C. Scott in her book 'Evolution Vs. Creationism: An Introduction (Second Edition)' [2009. University of California Press) where she states: "Just as attemtps to explain the natural world through revelation cause friction with scientists, so materialist scientists cause friction with religious people when they make statements about the ultimate nature of reality - when they speak as if they speak for science itself. On reflection it should be recognizable that if science has the limited goal of explaining the natural world using natural causes, it lacks the tools to make justifiable statements about whether there is or is not a reality beyond the familiar one of matter and energy. ....both supporters and deniers of evolution argue erroneously that because science uses methodological naturalism (and quite successfully), science therefore also incorporates philosophical naturalism. Unfortunately, such confusion makes communication about sceince and religion or creationism and evolution more difficult." (p. 75) In both of these statements, and in the entire sources, I cannot find any justifiable distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism. Both Forrest and Scott claim that there is a distinction, but by their admission that science cannot consider the 'supernatural,' they 'categorically'(to use Forrest's own term) define science to a particular area, whose limits are artificially etched by them. The latter (phil nat) stems from the former (meth nat). Eugenie Scott denies it, but she can't really put her finger on the distinction. True, one is used to make bald statements such as: "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind." (George Gaylord Simpson - 'The Meaning of Evolution' - 1967), but the fact remains - and is obvious, that Darwinists do not distinguish between the two, except in reflections such as the above quotes from Forrest and Scott. It remains quite clear that Darwinists are capable of making the distinctions when they discuss issues of philosophy and science, yet in their claims about evolution, they do not. Consider for example, Richard Dawkins: "Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." (The Blind Watchmaker - 1986. p. 1) For an excellent discussion on meth nat, I refer you to Alvin Plantinga here: http://www.arn.org/docs/odesign/od181/methnat181.htm Abstract: "The philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism holds that, for any study of the world to qualify as "scientific," it cannot refer to God's creative activity (or any sort of divine activity). The methods of science, it is claimed, "give us no purchase" on theological propositions--even if the latter are true--and theology therefore cannot influence scientific explanation or theory justification. Thus, science is said to be religiously neutral, if only because science and religion are, by their very natures, epistemically distinct. However, the actual practice and content of science challenge this claim. In many areas, science is anything but religiously neutral; moreover, the standard arguments for methodological naturalism suffer from various grave shortcomings."CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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Ritchie, "There is no evidence for anything ORGANIC being designed in nature." And that's the whole point of contention between ID theorists and Darwinists. There is no evidence from an origin of life perspective that life spontaneously generated from non-life, and the odds are overwhelmingly against it ever being produced. The only response we get from Darwinists on this matter are the immensely circular arguments such as "well, here we are, so something like that must have happened." Does it not spark your curiosity that animals and humans purposefully design things that are very complex? Are you satisfied that Darwinian ToE has sufficiently accounted for this apart from the question-begging and proverbial just-so stories, which permeate the Darwinian intellectual landscape?CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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I said,
Let the evidence lead where it may, indeed.
My point was, if the evidence tells us something about the nature of the designer, why not investigate further? The lack of curiosity about the nature of the designer on the part of ID proponents is curious. They don't seem to be a curious bunch, by and large. Perhaps because of lack of clarity on my part, StephenB replied, irrelevantly,
Can I take that to mean that you now disavow the methodological naturalism espoused by your comrades, which was designed specifically to forbid design inferences in the name of science?
StephenB, the last time I looked, methodological naturalism was the only game in town with respect to addressing empirical questions. That is, questions about the observable universe. As a flourish, StephenB helpfully added that methodological naturalism was "designed specifically to forbid design inferences..." Who was the designer of that specific aim? I'd like to see some evidence for that claim.Adel DiBagno
September 27, 2009
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I meant: No matter what mainstream science does and scientists do . . . . sigh. I should go to bed, it's late in England. :-)ellazimm
September 27, 2009
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StephenB, thank you again for taking the time to reply. No matter what mainstream science and science do there is nothing to stop ID research going forward; it just needs to find its own funding source. I believe the budget for the Discovery Institute is in the millions of dollars; surely there are lots and lots of people out there who would be glad to help fund ID research! Good heavens, if only 40% of the American public accept evolution that's close to 200 hundred million who don't!! If they all gave a dollar . . . . :-) Seriously, why not ask? Even Oral Roberts can generate millions of dollars a year. If the people of the USA are behind you then . . .ellazimm
September 27, 2009
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StephenB @ 65
—-ellazimm: “Okay, if ID currently has no paradigm to study the designers processes is someone working on that? I would!!” It requires a genius. We simply have to wait for another one to come along. Let’s hope he/she is better received than the current trailblazers, who are slandered and smeared daily.
The problem is that there is rarely if ever a genius around just when you need one. For the rest, we just have to rely on good, solid, methodical research by the less gifted among us. The problem with ID is that there doesn't seem to be much blazing of trails going on. Rather, it looks uncomfortably like stagnation.
—-“The [evolutionary] scientists working on evolution research are trying to find the details of how it all happened.” No, actually they are not. They are working hard to stop ID from finding out what happened, because we now know that the Darwinists almost certainly got it wrong. They work hard at protecting their paradigm. That’s about it.
That sounds suspiciously like a paranoid conspiracy theory being invoked to explain a lack of progress in ID research. It does not seem to be a very effective conspiracy since ID proponents are still able to hold interviews, appear on radio and TV shows, publish books and magazine and newspaper articles and make movies. Unfortunately, much of that output seems to be devoted to criticism of evolution rather than advancing the case for design.
Darwinists have discovered nothing more than that which we already knew without their help—–things change. The theory of evolution has not given us one good thing in 150 years. Most of the real advances come from medical specialists and molecular biologists, neither of which need the ToE to do their work.
Strange as it may seem, the theory of evolution was not written primarily to enable us to develop new technologies. Certainly, new technologies can be a measure of how accurate a new theory is but they are not an essential test of it. In fact, like most if not all such theories it was intended as a framework explanation that encompassed the great range of data that had been gathered about life on Earth.
Life was designed. That is a big scientific discovery. Why do you not celebrate it?
Because it needs to be demonstrated before it can be celebrated?
If, however, ID does prove how the designer designed life,...
I thought you just said that the big, scientific discovery was that life was designed, no "if"about it.
you may be sure that the Darwinist academy will respond the same way they responded to the news that life was designed. They will persecute the messenger.
Perhaps they are still waiting for the news. Perhaps they are dismissive of those who make premature claims of discovery.
"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
Seversky
September 27, 2009
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----ellazimm: “Okay, if ID currently has no paradigm to study the designers processes is someone working on that? I would!!” It requires a genius. We simply have to wait for another one to come along. Let’s hope he/she is better received than the current trailblazers, who are slandered and smeared daily. ----"How about the when question? I would think THAT would be an easier question to examine? Surely someone must have come up with a hypothesis regarding that by now? I’m guessing a lot of ID proponents would say the Cambrian Explosion is a very suspicious time frame. But even that stretches over millions of years. Does the designer work slowly or immediately?” I, too, am curious about that. ----“I’m just trying to get ID!! I understand the fundamental principle: that based on personal experience some things are better explained by the intervention of an intelligent designer. AND . . . then what? What’s next? There has to be something after that!! “ You forget that ID must also work in a politically charged environment in which asking questions like that will prompt some stupid judge to say that ID is not science because it is “tied to the supernatural.” We should not abandon the theme of this thread, the purpose of which is to remind everyone about a travesty of justice that was visited on the reputations of real thinkers like Dembski and Behe by mental mediocrities like Judge “copycat” Jones, his mommy, Barbara Forrest, and his writer/editor, the ACLU. ----“The [evolutionary] scientists working on evolution research are trying to find the details of how it all happened.” No, actually they are not. They are working hard to stop ID from finding out what happened, because we now know that the Darwinists almost certainly got it wrong. They work hard at protecting their paradigm. That’s about it. Darwinists have discovered nothing more than that which we already knew without their help-----things change. The theory of evolution has not given us one good thing in 150 years. Most of the real advances come from medical specialists and molecular biologists, neither of which need the ToE to do their work. ----“Surely the ID researchers are doing the same. Yeah?” Life was designed. That is a big scientific discovery. Why do you not celebrate it? There may be more to come, but maybe not. We may never know about life’s origins from a scientific point of view. If, however, ID does prove how the designer designed life, you may be sure that the Darwinist academy will respond the same way they responded to the news that life was designed. They will persecute the messenger.StephenB
September 27, 2009
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CannuckianYankee [from 63] "When I say ToE I don’t mean merely change as in adaptation. I mean the Darwinian idea of change through blind chance and necessity. By 'blind chance and necessity', do you mean mutation and natural selection? Because that it all Darwin meant by it... "Failure to distinguish between ‘evolution’ (which nobody really disputes) and Darwinian ToE, which means much more than the evidence suggests is very problematic, Richie." Errrrr, you're right there! Charles Darwin drew up the theory of evolution. Modern science has built upon it, sure, but in essence it is still the same thoery. If you have a theory which disputes what you call 'Darwinian evoltuion', then your theory is not evolution. It is not my failing to distinguish between them, it really is that they are the same thing. "Evolution when defined as adaptive change," Who defines it like that, exactly?! Not any biologist I've ever read! "...is not provisional because there is evidence that cannot be disputed." Agreed. "However, Darwinian ToE is what is provisional. The evidence for evolution is interpretive for several competing ideas – Darwin’s theory, Theistic Evolution, Creation Science and ID (there may be more)." The last three are not theories of evolution. At least, not in the way that I understand them. Perhaps you understand them differently, since you have such a different definition of 'evolution'. Can you briefly outline these three theories please? Because from my (admittedly ungenerous) point of view, they all seem like different lines of defence trying to protect what is basically Creationism from being falsified by all that pesky evidence... "You assert “‘designed processes’ are NOT observed in nature!” Of course they are. Animals design things – beavers, for example purposefully design dams, birds design nests – nature is full of design – humans are a part of nature, and we certainly design things." I knew you'd say that. Whilst that's true, that's not what I meant. There is no evidence for anything ORGANIC being designed in nature. No feature of any specific plant or animal shows signs of being designed. No bone, leg, ear, fur, talon, beak, gill, tail, feather, gut or anything which grows biologically shows any sign of being designed. Unless you know any different...? "ID is more observationally valid." On the basis of beavers' dams and spiders' webs? "What we don’t observe are blind forces without a goal or purpose developing complexity by themselves. To state that nature does this is question begging to the extreme." I heartily disagree. Consider when you were an egg. You were a single cell which divided many times and then went through several processes of growth (gastrulation, neurulation, etc). At every step along the way, we see only seperate cells obeying local rules. Like termites building a colony, they simply do what they are 'programmed' to do in their little part of the body/nest. But there is no overall cohesion, no grand plan, no blueprint for the end product. What would you call this if not blind forces without goal or purpose? It's not as though individual cells can 'want' anything, or any foresight...Ritchie
September 27, 2009
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Richie, "ToE has the observational advantage because we can observe evolution in nature directly. It is something we can sit and watch happen." Sure. We can observe change happen, but we cannot determine by such changes that they are merely the result of blind natural processes with no set purpose or goal for such changes. When I say ToE I don't mean merely change as in adaptation. I mean the Darwinian idea of change through blind chance and necessity. We can't observe that. We can observe processes that one might interpret as blind chance and necessity, but such interpretations are mere speculation. Failure to distinguish between 'evolution' (which nobody really disputes) and Darwinian ToE, which means much more than the evidence suggests is very problematic, Richie. Evolution when defined as adaptive change, is not provisional because there is evidence that cannot be disputed. However, Darwinian ToE is what is provisional. The evidence for evolution is interpretive for several competing ideas - Darwin's theory, Theistic Evolution, Creation Science and ID (there may be more). So to claim that Darwinists are the only ones looking at the evidence correctly, which is really what you are suggesting, is merely an opinion, and finds no support with the evidence. You assert "‘designed processes’ are NOT observed in nature!" Of course they are. Animals design things - beavers, for example purposefully design dams, birds design nests - nature is full of design - humans are a part of nature, and we certainly design things. ID is more observationally valid. What we don't observe are blind forces without a goal or purpose developing complexity by themselves. To state that nature does this is question begging to the extreme.CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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CannuckianYankee [from 59} Ritchie, "They know Darwinian ToE cannot be 'proven'. They also know this of ID. However, ID has an observation advantage over Darwinian ToE in that no known Darwinian processes are observed in the here and now, while designed processes are observed all the time, and they are always processes involving purposeful objectives from a conscious mind." I think that is precisely where is wrong. The reverse is in fact true. ToE has the observational advantage because we can observe evolution in nature directly. It is something we can sit and watch happen. Conversely, 'designed processes' are NOT observed in nature! The 'designed processes' I presume you are talking about are products of human civilization - architecture, manufacture and art? If so, then your point is ridiculous. It is not happening IN NATURE. So it is ToE which is always to be preferred since we know for a fact it happens. Perhaps we cannot be certain that it has always been so, but it happens now and that is reason enough for us to presume. ID however, has never been observed or even inferred in any nature.Ritchie
September 27, 2009
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Learned Hand, (hey, another debate about Dover - how fun!) Clive: "I know that Dr. Dembski’s position is that the Intelligent Designer can be entirely natural." You: "How, if natural causes are insufficient for abiogenesis?" Natural causes as defined by meth nat are insufficient for abiogenesis. However, we don't really know if meth nat sufficiently defines the limits of what science can know. ID folk have been saying all along that if such a designer is a reality, then 'supernatural' as defined by meth nat principles is lacking. Certainly a designer of the type inplied by ID may be supernatural (in a particular sense that the designer is above and beyond nature), but that does not imply that the means by which such a designer designs is necessarily supernatural (in any other sense) however you may want to define it. I think the difficulty we are all experiencing here on both sides of the debate, is in a lack of adequate terminology in determining several issues: -The limits of obseravational science in dealing with unknown causes. -The historical leap from design inferences to blind natural causes, and how this may limit scientific inquiry into origin of life issues. -Lack of a truly adequate distinction between supernatural causes vs. supernatural agents. -The misguided perception among adherents to meth nat that a supernatural agent implies an origination of causes that cannot be naturally detected. Nobody can dogmatically state that this is the case. I've stated this before, and I think it warrants repeating - meth nat cannot adequately or logically define the limits between what is natural and what is 'supernatural.' As such, meth nat is more philosophical than it is scientific, because it asserts a position that may not be so. It does not permit a scientist to go wherever the evidence may lead.CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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edit: Darwinists are in reality exhibiting an extreme prejudice against the idea of agency and for no good reason.CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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ellazimm, "But . . . . that’s what you all are asking ToE to do!! I am so confused!!" I understand your frustration with this, but you need to understand that this predicament has been set up by Darwin defenders, who assert ToE as fact. ID supporters are simply reacting to these types of assertions. Now there may be some excellent Darwinists who understand the provisional nature of the theory, but there appear to be a greater numbers of others who placate to popular media, and who desire ToE to answer more than it really can. Ritchie, "In short, unless proponents of ToE can PROVE evolution (which can never be done) Intelligent Design is always the default answer!" Well, not exactly. I think ID proponents are keen on the historical nature of both theories. You should read Meyer's book 'Signature in the Cell' to understand more on this. They know that Darwinian ToE cannot be 'proven.' They also know this of ID. However, ID has an observation advantage over Darwinian ToE in that no known Darwinian processes are observed in the here and now, while designed processes are observed all the time, and they are always processes involving purposeful objectives from a conscious mind. So in light of this observational reality, it would appear that many Darwinists are in reality exhibiting an extreme prejudice against the idea of agency.CannuckianYankee
September 27, 2009
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