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Judge Jones Discussed at 3quarksdaily

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In light of Judge Jones coming to Southern Methodist University today and tomorrow, for what seems to be an unbalanced discussion of ID, I thought I would add some clarity to the affair with these remarks by Nick Smyth  from the blog 3quarksdaily pertaining to Jones’s poor reasoning in his 2005 Kitzmiller decision as to what constitutes science:

For any formal definition of science, it either excludes too much, or includes too much, or both. It is enough to say that today, even those writing anti-pseudoscience manifestos concede that it is not possible to give a complete definition of what constitutes science or pseudoscience. Rather, they tend to revert to weak, vague and totally indefensible “ballpark” definitions that are designed to exclude specific targets. Judge Jones’ 2005 ruling in the Kitzmiller creationism case is a recent example:

ID [Intelligent Design] fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. (Jones 2005, 64)

It’s hard to properly describe how bad this ruling was, how incredibly vulnerable it is to logical and factual attack.

Take, for example, the second and third requirement. If we banish everyone who has either (2) seriously employed a false argument, or (3) has had some position refuted, it’s hard to imagine that there will be many scientists left to speak of. These requirements are patently absurd.

The first requirement doesn’t fare much better, for its meaning turns on the definition of “natural”, and to my knowledge no-one has been able to define this term meaningfully without resorting to the claim that “nature” is the stuff that natural science talks about. Circularity looms.

However, even if we can define these terms responsibly, this “ground rule” is of questionable historical validity. For example, we are going to have to explain why Newton’s acceptance of alchemical principles and Kepler’s devout mysticism don’t disqualify them as scientists.

This is a serious problem. It’s fine to talk about science in a loose and squishy sense, as a historical phenomenon or as a diverse, loosely related set of practises or what have you, but once you start denying someone else social and political power on the grounds that you are scientific and they are not, you’d better have more to say than simply “your theory is supernatural”. Otherwise, you will quickly be reduced to claiming that you just know science when you see it, and well, isn’t that just the sort of maddening claim that those pesky “pseudoscientists” love to make?

by Nick Smyth
Comments
Learned Hand,
I assume you mean the categories Smyth invented and falsely attributed to the judge. If so, I agree that they are farcical. If, rather, you think Smyth’s statements are an accurate characterization of the court’s writing, I’m afraid you’ve lost me. Nowhere does the court criticize, much less “banish,” “everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument, or … has had some position refuted.” Mr. Smyth’s description of the ruling is grossly inaccurate.
What Nick Smyth quoted was directly from the Opinion, page 64, where Judge Jones wrote:
ID [Intelligent Design] fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980’s; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. (Jones 2005, 64)
Did you even read it before you claim that Nick Smyth misrepresents the opinion? I mean, really, this seriously makes me question your diligence and all arguments as a result. The characterization by Nick Smyth is not even a characterization, it is a direct quote from page 64 of the opinion. Again, what Judge Jones wrote in (2) and (3) is indeed absurd, and therefore not even worthy of discussion. What I'm interested in is what constitutes nature and supernature in (1). We agree that (2) and (3) are ridiculous. What we cannot understand is no. (1), and on this, I've yet to see any substantive response. Maybe there is a philosopher of science who can illuminate me to the efficacy of Judge Jones's philosophy...maybe...but I've yet to see it. And do you find his criterion for what constitutes as science based on his philosophy of what constitutes the natural and supernatural compelling? In short, can you answer the questions of my previous comment?Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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---Learned Hand: "The words and numbers in parentheses in that excerpt are citations to the source the court is quoting. Please look to the original sources if you doubt the court’s excerpts and paraphrases." I have read the transcript and, as Joseph has said, I find no such quotes. So, I am reduced to asking you to provide them.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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I know that Dr. Dembski’s position is that the Intelligent Designer can be entirely natural. How, if natural causes are insufficient for abiogenesis?Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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StephenB, I know that Dr. Dembski's position is that the Intelligent Designer can be entirely natural.Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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Behe on Jones' decision: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation.
It does no such thing. The Court’s opinion ignores, both here and elsewhere, the distinction between an implication of a theory and the theory itself. As I testified, when it was first proposed the Big Bang theory struck many scientists as pointing to a supernatural cause. Yet it clearly is a scientific theory, because it is based entirely on physical data and logical inferences. The same is true of intelligent design.
Joseph
September 24, 2009
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Learned Hand, Both Behe and Minnich testified that ID does not require the supernatural. Read the transcripts.Joseph
September 24, 2009
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Stephen, The words and numbers in parentheses in that excerpt are citations to the source the court is quoting. Please look to the original sources if you doubt the court's excerpts and paraphrases.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Learned, I appreciate your efforts, I really do, but I asked you for quotes from ID scientists, not quotes from Judge Jones. [I assume that is what you have given me.] Have I not made it clear that I do not accept Judge Jones' characterizations of what ID scientists say since I do not consider him a trustworthy interpreter? Again, my question is simple: Do you have any evidence that Michael Behe or William Dembski, the two scientists in question, have ever tied ID science to the supernatural?StephenB
September 24, 2009
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Stephen, Defendants’ expert witness ID proponents confirmed that the existence of a supernatural designer is a hallmark of ID. First, Professor Behe has written that by ID he means “not designed by the laws of nature,” and that it is “implausible that the designer is a natural entity.” (P-647 at 193; P-718 at 696, 700). Second, Professor Minnich testified that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules of science have to be broadened so that supernatural forces can be considered. (38:97 (Minnich)). Third, Professor Steven William Fuller testified that it is ID’s project to change the ground rules of science to include the supernatural. (Trial Tr. vol. 28, Fuller Test., 20-24, Oct. 24, 2005).Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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In the piece by Nick Smyth, where he refers to the three criteria of Judge Jone’s decision for what constitutes science, the other two that don’t pertain to the “supernatural” are so obviously flawed as to not even merit discussion. I assume you mean the categories Smyth invented and falsely attributed to the judge. If so, I agree that they are farcical. If, rather, you think Smyth’s statements are an accurate characterization of the court’s writing, I’m afraid you’ve lost me. Nowhere does the court criticize, much less “banish,” “everyone who has either … seriously employed a false argument, or … has had some position refuted.” Mr. Smyth’s description of the ruling is grossly inaccurate. Really, I’d really like to know the answer to how supernatural is so defined as to be outside the purview of science based on anything other than a philosophical musing. In the context of discussing the ruling, you’d need to ask ID luminaries such as Dr. Dembski. Doesn’t the explanatory filter rely on the exclusion of natural causes, in the guise of “law” and “chance?”Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Learned, again, meaning no disrespect, but my question is simple enough. I will settle for a quote or two from Dembski or Behe which shows them tying ID science to the supernatural. My demands are small. If you want to provide me with a link and a time saving reference, I will check it out. Meanwhile, you must surely have some evidence at your disposal.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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Sorry, that came across more stridently than I intended. The opinion gives (in more than just that one paragraph) solid support for ID's explicit rejection of "natural causes." While there's some wiggle room around what "natural" means, the statements of ID advocates like Dembski and Behe make it clear that any definition of "science" that includes ID would have to be profoundly different from the definition in common parlance today. I cannot summarize the statements supporting that position more concisely or more accurately than the court did, nor could I cite the primary sources if I tried to do so. (I don't actually keep such books in my office.)Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Learned Hand,
Insofar as the topic is the Kitzmiller court, which seems to be the subject of your post, the court took ID proponents at their word when they explicitly tied ID to supernaturalism.
Only insofar as they claimed that "natural" and inert "laws of nature" cannot seem to account for things like abiogenesis. If we say that anything other than inert and partially understood "laws of nature" are supernatural, that would include ourselves and any other intelligence. This is what it boils down to, the delineation between natural and supernatural categories. In the piece by Nick Smyth, where he refers to the three criteria of Judge Jone's decision for what constitutes science, the other two that don't pertain to the "supernatural" are so obviously flawed as to not even merit discussion. So, the only one left is the philosophy of science that Judge Jones participates in when designating natural and supernatural. This is the crux of the matter. A myriad of phenomena have been considered supernatural before they were considered natural. Much depends on the philosophy one hold in considering the affair as natural or supernatural. This is why I'm interested in getting your philosophical opinion about the two, nature and supernature. There are theoretical and philosophical difficulties in labeling things supernatural just by virtue that we don't understand them yet. What is more reasonable is to claim that things we can understand, or at least witness, are not adequate to explain the phenomena in question, but this doesn't mean that the default explanation has to be called supernatural now does it? And secondly, it depends on how you define "detectable" or "observable". If we say that the supernatural is neither, how do we, then, know this? Have we detected and observed that the supernatural was not detectable or observable? Or is it a default philosophical category for things we don't know how to explain so we call it undetectable? Really, I'd really like to know the answer to how supernatural is so defined as to be outside the purview of science based on anything other than a philosophical musing.Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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Stephen, Press the "page up" key on your keyboard a few times, until you get to comment #2. It is brief and to-the-point list of primary sources establishing the point. If you disagree with the use of these citations, please tell us why.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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---Learned Hand: "See comment number two, or the Kitzmiller opinion generally." Meaning no disrespect, but the burden for supporting your statement falls on you, not me. Why should I chase it down when, presumably you already have it at your fingertips? Also, I am not interested in what Judge Jones said about it, since I do not find his his characterization of their statements credible. You said "ID proponents" tied ID to supernaturalism, [suggesting ID methdology] and you included the names of Behe and Dembski. So, I am asking you how, when, and where they did it. Fair enough?StephenB
September 24, 2009
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See comment number two, or the Kitzmiller opinion generally.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Oops, I mean, what examples can you cite.StephenB
September 24, 2009
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----"Learned Hand: "Insofar as the topic is the Kitzmiller court, which seems to be the subject of your post, the court took ID proponents at their word when they explicitly tied ID to supernaturalism." ID's culture or methodology? ID proponents or ID scientists? Narrowing it down, what examples can you site among ID scientists [such as Behe or Dembski] tying their methodology to supernaturalism?StephenB
September 24, 2009
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Insofar as the topic is the Kitzmiller court, which seems to be the subject of your post, the court took ID proponents at their word when they explicitly tied ID to supernaturalism. As a practical matter, I think I'd do the same. IDists often and stridently assert that abiogenesis cannot be attributed to natural causes. I think that's fairly dispositive as to ID's position on naturalism. Insofar as you're asking about my personal position, as I said, I haven't put much thought into it. As I consider it now, I wonder if exceptionalism isn't the best delineation. A natural cause operates the same way every time, whereas a supernatural cause may or may not violate the normal, "natural" rules. I'll keep pondering it, and probably change my mind several times today. I'm not sure what difference it makes in the end, however. My only point to make on this thread was that the cited critique is exceptionally poorly-grounded, and that the author you quoted badly mischaracterized the opinion.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Learned Hand,
In the context of the above criticism of the Kitzmiller court, what matters is the definition of “natural” applied by Behe, Minnich, Fuller, Johnson, and Dembski. I think the excerpted statements speak for themselves.
The delineation between supernatural and natural is not spelled out. The statements speak for themselves only in so far as they speak to someone's pre-conceived notions and philosophy of what constitutes natural and supernatural. So I'd like to know what you think constitutes the difference.Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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Clive, I'd have to think about it. Off the cuff, I'd say that "natural" causes must be, at least in principal, detectable, quantifiable, and predictable. Perhaps repeatable, too, but I'm uncertain there. I'd probably exclude intelligence as a "natural" cause, but again, I've never really thought about it. In the context of the above criticism of the Kitzmiller court, what matters is the definition of "natural" applied by Behe, Minnich, Fuller, Johnson, and Dembski. I think the excerpted statements speak for themselves.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Learned Hand, What is your philosophical criterion for what constitutes as natural and supernatural?Clive Hayden
September 24, 2009
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I am especially sick of Darwinists who claim ID is disqualified as science because it refers to the supernatural. As Smyth says, that also rules out Newton and others. Well, it rules out alchemy. Insofar as Newtonian physics are methodologically naturalist, it doesn't bear on them at all. But more than that, ID does not automatically refer to the supernatural. ... [It] is not a supernatural belief if you consider human intelligence to be “natural”. Tell it to Behe, Minnich, Fuller, Johnson and Dembski.Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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I am especially sick of Darwinists who claim ID is disqualified as science because it refers to the supernatural. As Smyth says, that also rules out Newton and others. But more than that, ID does not automatically refer to the supernatural. It simply refers to intelligence being the only known force, system or activity capable or producing complex specifed information. This is not a supernatural belief if you consider human intelligence to be "natural".uoflcard
September 24, 2009
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kairos: Surely you're thinking of ontological naturalism: nature is all there is, and all basic truths are truths of nature. As opposed to methodological naturalism: an epistemological view that is specifically concerned with practical methods for acquiring knowledge, irrespective of one's metaphysical or religious views. It sounds more like a technique than a value judgement, well, to me at least. :-)ellazimm
September 24, 2009
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Science can be neither legislated nor adjudicated. Also ID does not require the supernatural. Dr Behe testified to that. Dr Minnich also testified that ID does not require the supernatural.Joseph
September 24, 2009
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Take, for example, the second and third requirement. If we banish everyone who has either (2) seriously employed a false argument, or (3) has had some position refuted, it’s hard to imagine that there will be many scientists left to speak of. These requirements are patently absurd. If the author finds these arguments absurd, he has only himself to blame--he invented them out of whole cloth. Kitzmiller does not hold that science excludes anyone who has "seriously employed a false argument," or "has had some position refuted." It would be more accurate to say that it holds that ideas that have been refuted are not sound science. This is "why Newton’s acceptance of alchemical principles and Kepler’s devout mysticism don’t disqualify them as scientists." What's relevant is that alchemy and mysticism aren't science. (Whether alchemy might have considered science been before its principles were disproven is a question I can't answer.) The first requirement doesn’t fare much better, for its meaning turns on the definition of “natural”, and to my knowledge no-one has been able to define this term meaningfully without resorting to the claim that “nature” is the stuff that natural science talks about. Circularity looms. I find that very few critics of Kitzmiller take the time to read the opinion. Mr. Smyth should do so. The Kitzmiller court looked to ID's own words to determine its stance on the nature of nature. See, i.e., pp. 29-30: Defendants’ expert witness ID proponents confirmed that the existence of a supernatural designer is a hallmark of ID. First, Professor Behe has written that by ID he means “not designed by the laws of nature,” and that it is “implausible that the designer is a natural entity.” (P-647 at 193; P-718 at 696, 700). Second, Professor Minnich testified that for ID to be considered science, the ground rules of science have to be broadened so that supernatural forces can be considered. (38:97 (Minnich)). Third, Professor Steven William Fuller testified that it is ID’s project to change the ground rules of science to include the supernatural. (Trial Tr. vol. 28, Fuller Test., 20-24, Oct. 24, 2005). Turning from defense expert witnesses to leading ID proponents, Johnson has concluded that science must be redefined to include the supernatural if religious challenges to evolution are to get a hearing. (11:8-15 (Forrest); P-429). Additionally, Dembski agrees that science is ruled by methodological naturalism and argues that this rule must be overturned if ID is to prosper. (Trial Tr. vol. 5, Pennock Test., 32-34, Sept. 28, 2005). Learned Hand
September 24, 2009
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Clive The point of methodological naturalism, as Johnson pointed out within months of Lewontin's notorious NYRB article, was to impose materialism a priori by the by implication back door. Psychologically, we don't tend to see implications as clearly as direct statements. But, since we know that intelligence is an empirically known, characteristic causal factor, we can in fact infer on evidence to explanation by ART not just nature. For instance, in the very declarations that try to impose meth nat, the relevant scientists, philosophers and judges put up contextually responsive complex digital text. In the case of Judge Jones' declaration above, we have 482 ASCII text characters, well beyond the 143 character threshold where by the search resources of the entire cosmos could not scan as much as 1 in 10^150 of the available configs. The learned judge (or his ACLU mentors) probably produced the text in a matter of at most hours. In short, these gentlefolk are being self-referentially inconsistent. Reductio ad absurdum. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 24, 2009
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