Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Message Theory – A testable ID alternative to Darwinism – Part 1

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Message Theory is a testable scientific explanation of life’s major patterns.

That claim should intrigue you. If I heard such a claim, I would nearly leap across the room to demand more details; else I couldn’t sleep that night. That is because I highly value testability, just as all scientists do, (in physics, chemistry, geology, medicine, engineering, etcetera) – and just as evolutionists do in all their court cases.

Message Theory should even intrigue evolutionists, because it offers what they repeatedly demanded from their opponents – a testable, scientific alternative to evolution. Yes, that is exactly what they demanded. In reality, the evolutionists’ response has been exceedingly superficial, falling into two categories: (1) Silence; or (2) They misrepresent Message Theory. (If you are aware of exceptions, let me know.) Therefore, my posts here will not much address the evolutionists’ response to Message Theory, since a serious response doesn’t much exist.

The creationist/ID response has been more varied, and I focus on that here. Many see Message Theory as exciting and promising. For example, Origins Magazine reviewed it saying, “I can give no greater accolade than urging that this book should now be the starting point for all of our discussions.” Phillip E. Johnson calls it “Bold and fascinating … a comprehensive theory.” Carl Wieland calls it, “Masterpiece … incredible … of immense value.” Michael Behe and many others have given glowing reviews, (see this link). To which I say, Thanks! That’s a good start.

However, some creationists/ID-ists are hesitant to investigate Message Theory, and the central reason is its claim of testability – its claim to make numerous coherent, risky, predictions about what we should see, and should not see. Unfortunately, many creationists/ID-ists do not value testability, and some aggressively dislike testability. Without knowing any details about Message Theory, we encounter their leading objection – testability.

For example, some creationists say, “Aren’t you claiming to test God?” To which I answer: No. Message Theory is about life’s data – many observations that must be explained – and Message Theory explains those observations in a testable (falsifiable, vulnerable, empirically risky) manner. It meets all the criteria for a scientific theory. A theory is tested, not God. The thought process is no different than concerning, say, the Piltdown fossils, which needed an explanation. These fossils were a hoax created by an intelligent designer – a testable explanation that no scientist disputes. We need not test the intelligent designer, (indeed, the designer of the Piltdown Hoax remains unidentified), rather we test the theory. In science we test explanations (i.e., theories); not God.

Also, deep down, many creationists want the ‘certainty of faith,’ and they are not yet comfortable with the inherent riskiness of science – they haven’t learned to balance the two types of thought: risk and certainty.

The classic creationist organizations (ICR, AIG, CRS) often do not value testability, (and sometimes they explicitly oppose testability). Instead, they use a different criterion of science; a different value system. They claim “science must be repeatable, and since origins are not repeatable, creation and evolution are equally unscientific.” They are deeply mistaken. For example, we frequently execute murderers (which is not a flimsy thing to do) based solely on scientific evidence, even though the murder is not repeatable.

Instead, repeatability is how we identify naturalistic laws (as opposed to the work of intelligent beings); therefore the creationists’ demand for ‘repeatability’ is implicitly a demand that science must be purely naturalistic and cannot include an intelligent designer. They are shooting themselves in the foot!

Thankfully the ID organizations don’t take that approach. They take a more sophisticated approach, yet they tend to undervalue testability nonetheless, (sometimes through redefining it into obscurity).

In my many discussions with my fellow creationists/ID-ists, the foremost obstacle to Message Theory is their devaluing or misunderstanding of testability. So let me pause to underscore this for my readers: If you do not value testability highly, then leave now, or you will only waste your time, and mine. Let me put it stronger: Anyone (creationist, ID-ist, or evolutionist for that matter) who cheapens testability is a danger to science, and moreover, they miss many opportunities to advance creation/ID as superior science.

Let me put my claim stronger still: Message Theory is testable science, and macro-evolutionary theory (as practiced by its modern proponents) is not. I employ testability – the same tool evolutionists use in all their court cases – to turn the tables on evolutionists.

After handling some comments, I will next discuss Message Theory proper.

– Walter ReMine

The Biotic Message – the book

Comments
FWIW, The following were the experiments that I noted as seeming relavtively significant while going through the MacNeil website: de Vries, Digby, Gottlieb, Macnair,Crossley (1974),Kilias, Rice and Salt, Dodd. ----------------------------------- Mark Frank:
To see that this is true you only have to ask yourself whether you would still have high information content or irreducible complexity if you had a plausible explanation.
So, someone has some long binary string of length n and says the probability of getting this string by chance is 2^n, so that is its information content. So you say in effect, "No, because there could have been a program that existed that output that string, so you can't compute the probability of y or its information content based on its length as if it had to come into existence at random." I would agree. So you have to consider the probability of the program that output y (which itself would be a bit string - call it f(x), with f and x being two portions of this string, with one portion being considered the "program" and the other portion the "input".) So needless to say you've just pushed back what needs to be explained. f(x) could itself be the output of some previous process and so the regression continues. But at some point in this regression you'll hit a string that has either always existed or came into existence by chance. And at that point you can just compute its information content from its length. But anyway, the probablity of y to begin with was not determined by its own length, but the length of the smallest program-input that could generate it. The problem in ID is positing "intelligence" as an explanation, because the ID conception of intelligence is meaningless. As far as your "moving the goal posts" comment in 49, I agree.JT
February 18, 2009
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Mark Frank, So if irreducible complexity, or FSCI, or nucleic sequencing were easy, they wouldn't be hard? Thanks for the clarity. I rather enjoy the insertions of "only a negative argument" leveled against ID. It's a sure sign of an industry tired of having to cover all its failing bases. As if pointing out that the explanation doesn't fit the evidence is a weakness of some kind (see Copernicus, Einstein, Mendel, Wegener, Denton, Behe)Upright BiPed
February 18, 2009
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Mark Frank, Nearly all the arguments in the evolution debate are negative. It is the lack of the positive that is at the heart of the debate. People criticize ID because they cannot prove a designer or that the design is inefficient for any designer or there is no known motive for the designer, or a design event or a means of design etc. You fill in the rest to suit yourself. People criticize naturalistic methods because there is no known mechanism for creating the information for life or major additions for life naturally, there is no trail of events from one species to another either in the fossil world or in the known world in which the changes are major. So both sides are using negative information against the other. This has been pointed out many times in the past so your point is not new. Some will then argue that certain things are positive but in essence the arguments are negative against the other side.jerry
February 18, 2009
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#46 Pav As jerry has rightly pointe out, most of the examples you give would fall under the label of ‘microevolution’ Additionally, in the case of polyploidy in plants, these are ‘jumps’, not the ‘gradual’ evolution that Darwin insisted on. In the first sentence you criticise the examples for not representing large enough changes. In the second sentence you criticise them for representing too large a change. You criticise evolution for not explaining a certain level of change - let's not worry about what we call it. Is it the creation of a new species or the introduction of entirely new structural features and organs? Where are you putting the goalposts? Presumably this is the lizard you are talking about. It did evolve some interesting new features in about 30 generations. But it was hardly saltation. A cecal valve is not an "entirely new digestive system" and there is no reason to believe it appeared fully formed in one generation. It is an example of a relatively significant change in the phenotype in a just a few generations.Mark Frank
February 18, 2009
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Re #45 Joseph The subtle point that the argument leaves out is that both high information content and irreducible complexity are defined in terms of low probability of an alternative explanation. To see that this is true you only have to ask yourself whether you would still have high information content or irreducible complexity if you had a plausible explanation. What appears to be a positive argument is actually a negative argument in disguise.Mark Frank
February 18, 2009
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To kairosfocus Thanks for your reply, it depends on who you speak to then. This happens in science a lot. (I am at a loss as to why you started talking about religions and atheists what have they got to do with it?)GSV
February 18, 2009
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GSV: Many major ID scientists and thinkers are proponents of common descent [e.g. Prof Michael Behe of LeHigh; who was comfortable theologically as well as scientifically with darwinism, but has come to see that the evidence does not fit the story]. Some, too, are not. Indeed, some Creationists [of both young and old earth varieties; also I think we have Islamic creationists etc to look at . . . . and perhaps some Jews as well] are also ID thinkers, while some are actually hostile to ID. Some Design thinkers are platonic -- thinking in terms of inner forms of nature. Others are agnostics, Buddhists, and at least one prominent ID thinker is a follower of the Unification church. In recent years the former leading philosophical atheist in the world, Antony Flew has become a deistic ID thinker. It will help to understand that: 1--> ID is a cause- of- information theory, which intersects biology since the cell has in it a sophisticated info system. 2 --> From signs of intelligence such as FSCI, design thinkers infer that the cell shows signs of design. 3 --> There are candidate mechanisms by which such design can be implemented through common descent, in part or in whole [cf. on front-loading]. 4 --> ID -- and this cuts straight across the "ID is Creationism in a cheap tuxedo" caricature -- is about reliably identifying the causal factors at work [across chance, necessity and design], not the implementing mechanism; nor even "whodunit." Try this 101, popular level article, if the WACs did not help you enough. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 18, 2009
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Allen: As jerry has rightly pointe out, most of the examples you give would fall under the label of 'microevolution'. Additionally, in the case of polyploidy in plants, these are 'jumps', not the 'gradual' evolution that Darwin insisted on. Didn't De Vries, for example, believe in saltation? One very recent example of a 'jump' is the case of the Adriatic Island lizard that, within, thirty something years of its introduction to a different island, developed a very different digestive system. Since you're more of an 'evo-devo' person, I'm sure this is right up your alley. However, the lizard remains a lizard. This is 'microevolution' at best, but it is also 'saltational' change, a type of change that is not consistent with Darwin's ideas. One only has to remember Darwin's dealings with Huxley to be reminded that Darwin absolutely insisted on "gradualism". We don't see "gradualism". So why is it, then, that Darwin is still taken seriously?PaV
February 18, 2009
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Jay M, Design Hypotheses: The Positive Case for Design Darwinism, Design and Public Education page 92: 1. High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2. Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3. Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4. Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. Casey Luskin has put together this positive case for design My case for intelligent design was made in many posts but summed up in intelligent design the design hypothesis- which is overdue for an upgrade.Joseph
February 18, 2009
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Allen, I have said this before and will say it again: The way macroevolution is defined not even YECs reject it. macroevolution from talk origins:
In evolutionary biology today, macroevolution is used to refer to any evolutionary change at or above the level of species.
However those YECs have their own definition:
2) macroevolution—the theory/belief that biological population changes take (and have taken) place (typically via mutations and natural selection) on a large enough scale to produce entirely new structural features and organs, resulting in entirely new species, genera, families, orders, classes, and phyla within the biological world, by generating the requisite (new) genetic information. Many evolutionists have used “macro-evolution” and “Neo-Darwinism” as synonymous for the past 150 years.
So which macro are you talking about? The one no one debates or the one tat is being debated?Joseph
February 18, 2009
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I am confused again and the FAQ doesn't help me so I'll ask the question here. Does ID say that macro-evolution is impossible? I was sure it didn't but reading some of the comments here makes me wonder.GSV
February 18, 2009
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Clive We should forgive Allen MacNeil for being a little testy. If you'd been teaching the same course 33 years you'd be going batshit by now too. I mean, the poor guy's been at Cornell forever, rubbing elbows with some really brilliant people, and hasn't managed to get a doctorate or advance beyond a teacher's aide in all that time. So when he tells someone else they're ignorant just consider the source. http://lsc.sas.cornell.edu/lscstaff.html
Allen MacNeill earned a BS in biology from Cornell in 1974 and an MA in science education from Cornell in 1977, and has taught the support course for introductory biology at Cornell University since 1976. As a senior lecturer for the Learning Strategies Center, Allen works with students taking both majors and non-majors introductory biology. In addition, he organizes and carries out in-service training for teaching assistants in biology and related fields. Allen also teaches evolution for the Cornell Summer Session, and has taught the introductory evolution course for non-majors at Cornell. He has served as a Faculty Fellow at Ecology House and as an honorary member and faculty advisor for the Cornell chapter of the Golden Key International Honour Society. He has served on numerous advisory committees and editorial boards at Cornell and in the Ithaca community.
DaveScot
February 18, 2009
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PS: here are some excerpts from the just linked that give a picture of where some of us at least are coming from: ____________________ The Cambrian explosion represents a remarkable jump in the specified complexity or "complex specified information" (CSI) of the biological world. For over three billions years, the biological realm included little more than bacteria and algae (Brocks et al. 1999). Then, beginning about 570-565 million years ago (mya), the first complex multicellular organisms appeared in the rock strata, including sponges, cnidarians, and the peculiar Ediacaran biota (Grotzinger et al. 1995). Forty million years later, the Cambrian explosion occurred (Bowring et al. 1993) . . . [.] One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93) . . . the more complex animals that appeared in the Cambrian (e.g., arthropods) would have required fifty or more cell types . . . New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. New proteins, in turn, require new genetic information. Thus an increase in the number of cell types implies (at a minimum) a considerable increase in the amount of specified genetic information. Molecular biologists have recently estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318 and 562 kilobase pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life (Koonin 2000). More complex single cells might require upward of a million base pairs. Yet to build the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would require orders of magnitude more coding instructions. The genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 180 million base pairs (Gerhart & Kirschner 1997:121, Adams et al. 2000). Transitions from a single cell to colonies of cells to complex animals represent significant (and, in principle, measurable) increases in CSI . . . . In order to explain the origin of the Cambrian animals, one must account not only for new proteins and cell types, but also for the origin of new body plans . . . Mutations in genes that are expressed late in the development of an organism will not affect the body plan. Mutations expressed early in development, however, could conceivably produce significant morphological change (Arthur 1997:21) . . . [but] processes of development are tightly integrated spatially and temporally such that changes early in development will require a host of other coordinated changes in separate but functionally interrelated developmental processes downstream. For this reason, mutations will be much more likely to be deadly if they disrupt a functionally deeply-embedded structure such as a spinal column than if they affect more isolated anatomical features such as fingers (Kauffman 1995:200) . . . McDonald notes that genes that are observed to vary within natural populations do not lead to major adaptive changes, while genes that could cause major changes--the very stuff of macroevolution--apparently do not vary. In other words, mutations of the kind that macroevolution doesn't need (namely, viable genetic mutations in DNA expressed late in development) do occur, but those that it does need (namely, beneficial body plan mutations expressed early in development) apparently don't occur.6 _______________________ Similarly, Lonnig in his 2004 paper observed: ----- . . . examples like the horseshoe crab [a 250 MY living fossil on form] are by no means rare exceptions from the rule of gradually evolving life forms . . . In fact, we are literally surrounded by 'living fossils' in the present world of organisms when applying the term more inclusively as "an existing species whose similarity to ancient ancestral species indicates that very few morphological changes have occurred over a long period of geological time" [85] . . . . Now, since all these "old features", morphologically as well as molecularly, are still with us, the basic genetical questions should be addressed in the face of all the dynamic features of ever reshuffling and rearranging, shifting genomes, (a) why are these characters stable at all and (b) how is it possible to derive stable features from any given plant or animal species by mutations in their genomes? . . . . A first hint for answering the questions . . . is perhaps also provided by Charles Darwin himself when he suggested the following sufficiency test for his theory [16]: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." . . . Biochemist Michael J. Behe [5] has refined Darwin's statement by introducing and defining his concept of "irreducibly complex systems", specifying: "By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning" . . . [for example] (1) the cilium, (2) the bacterial flagellum with filament, hook and motor embedded in the membranes and cell wall and (3) the biochemistry of blood clotting in humans . . . . One point is clear: granted that there are indeed many systems and/or correlated subsystems in biology, which have to be classified as irreducibly complex and that such systems are essentially involved in the formation of morphological characters of organisms, this would explain both, the regular abrupt appearance of new forms in the fossil record as well as their constancy over enormous periods of time. For, if "several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function" are necessary for biochemical and/or anatomical systems to exist as functioning systems at all (because "the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning") such systems have to (1) originate in a non-gradual manner and (2) must remain constant as long as they are reproduced and exist. And this could mean no less than the enormous time periods mentioned for all the living fossils hinted at above. Moreover, an additional phenomenon would also be explained: (3) the equally abrupt disappearance of so many life forms in earth history . . . [,] The reason why irreducibly complex systems would also behave in accord with point (3) is also nearly self-evident: if environmental conditions deteriorate so much for certain life forms (defined and specified by systems and/or subsystems of irreducible complexity), so that their very existence be in question, they could only adapt by integrating further correspondingly specified and useful parts into their overall organization, which prima facie could be an improbable process -- or perish . . . . According to Behe and several other authors [5-7, 21-23, 53-60, 68, 86] the only adequate hypothesis so far known for the origin of irreducibly complex systems is intelligent design (ID) . . . in connection with Dembski's criterion of specified complexity . . . . "For something to exhibit specified complexity therefore means that it matches a conditionally independent pattern (i.e., specification) of low specificational complexity, but where the event corresponding to that pattern has a probability less than the universal probability bound and therefore high probabilistic complexity" [23]. For instance, regarding the origin of the bacterial flagellum, Dembski calculated a probability of 10^-234[22]. _________________________ So, in that context, what is there that would distinguish common descent without intelligent intervetnion, from common design, perhpas in part implemented through evolutionary mefhaisms used as useful hueristics similar to today's genetic Algorithms. Thanks. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 18, 2009
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H'mm: As a first level of test -- and Mr MacNeil, most of your examples are fairly obviously micro-level changes within forms -- it seems to me that the core of the issue on Macro-Evolution is origination of major life systems and forms, i.e body-plans; in light of the quantum leaps in information required to account for such. That starts with the first such body plan, i.e. origin of life. Mr MacNeil puts up a speculative account for the origins of different classes of cells, but that does not address the origin of info level that is the core of the ID concern. So, why not start with giving us a good explanation with empirical evidence on origin of bio-information -- not speculations and homologues on cell types etc [which would equally fit design with re-use of a library of components . . . as software engineering and civil engineering have long done . . . ] -- as observed, on say the Cambrian fossil life revolution? [As say CRD was concerned about in his day . . . ] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 18, 2009
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What journal has this work been published in? I can't find it looking at the mathematics journals in the main.GSV
February 18, 2009
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Still going through it but starting to be underwhelmed a little. At one point it says "He found statistically significant assortative mating between populations raised on different media" and the phrase "stastically signficant" is repeated five times in this presentation. It seems awfully vague and euphemistic as in "could be argued to be slightly better than random." Also whenever someone makes you slog through a lot of technical minutia regarding the experimental setup and lab details, makes it seem like their trying to pad the presentation or overwhelm you with their thoroughness, rather than just presenting whatever significant findings there were in a succinct way. Of course it depends on the audience, but presumably it wouldn't be professional biologists here.JT
February 18, 2009
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Jerry: I t seems that the species has always been considered sacrosanct at least in creationist circles. He's giving repeated examples apparently of new genetic variants appearing that are assigned new latin names and can't interbreed with the previous species. Consider the very first example he gives. (Although I'm still looking at his examples as well.) Are you saying he has to show major morphological change appearing instantaneously? Also the example from yesterday of lichens being the endosymbiotic combination of two different species seemed pretty compelling to me. But couldn't ID look at any conceivable scenario and still say that inteligence is behind the whole process.JT
February 17, 2009
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Allen, First, thank you for the work you did generating your examples. We should all learn from your effort. I quickly looked at the plants and you have to know two things. I am not a biologist let alone an evolutionary biologist or botanist. Each of your examples seemed interesting but before we start talking past each other, it seems that your examples are not what we would call macro evolution of complex new functional capabilities. We would call most if not all of the examples, micro evolution. In the end we may need more precise definitions for the terms micro and macro evolution and maybe a new definition for the type of change we say is impossible or highly improbable. ID does not challenge what seems to be happening in your examples so we may end up agreeing that these are changes but not the kind of changes that meet the threshold of new information. Before you go off in a huff and a puff that we are changing the goal posts or something like that, try to understand the threshold of change we say has not happened does not seem to be passed in your examples. We are not saying changes didn't happen but what is the nature of the changes. And maybe my assessment is very wrong and in the end we may say that this is macro evolution. But also in the end we may continue to disagree but you should know that our opposition is based on the construction of new information that govern new systems and not that various combinations of current information can not make interesting morphological changes but are they really creating new information and systems that did not exist before. Also nearly all the discussions we have here are with animals and not plants. Animals seem to have more systems than plants. Tomorrow, I will give you my 2 cents on the animal examples. I am definitely not the best person to articulate this. Others should read your site and should comment on it. Thank you for the work you put in to the examples. I am sure we will all learn something, including yourself about just what ID is about and what are the limits of naturalistic processes.jerry
February 17, 2009
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B L Harville:
To say that a scientific hypothesis should be mathematically modellable is another way of saying that natural phenomenon should be, at least in principle, reducible to physics.
In the same way that all engineering is reduceable to physics, I fail to see that any ID hypothesis is not reduceable to physics. Is it not true that all engineering is reduceable to physics? Is it not true that all ID hypothesees suggest that life is the product of engineering?bFast
February 17, 2009
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BL Harville Speaking of mathematical models you might want to check out this one since the author of this article is involved in its development: http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net/ When evolution of a complex genome is modeled the result is not the decreasing entropy that the chance & necessity narrative describes but rather the increasing entropy that the laws of physics and statistical mechanacs describes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.DaveScot
February 17, 2009
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Allen MacNeill, I've long thought that there ought to be a book written for the layperson, such as me, wholly on the topic of speciation and the evolution of new forms and functions witnessed in the laboratory. (If you know a good book like this, let us know.) It's late, so I don't feel up to delving into your blog post at the moment, but it looks very interesting.B L Harville
February 17, 2009
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BL Harville Can you reduce things like a prokaryote acquiring a nucleus to a mathematical model? The problem is when WE apply statistical mechananics to "evolution" law and chance come up as wanting in capacity to produce molecular machinery as it is in producing microprocessors. The numbers just don't work. The further problem is that "evolution" devotees just plain ignore the probalistic problems. Because, for them, evolution is true they simply accept any improbability, however remote, as something that MUST have happened because that IS the TRUE way life came to be the way it is. This is not reducing things to physics. It's faith. There isn't two degrees of difference between faith in the chance & necessity narratives and faith in the biblical narratives.DaveScot
February 17, 2009
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"which they do not accept, mainly because of its implications for their religious beliefs" Don't put that in your textbook because it is yet another bogus assertion. I have no problems with macro evolution from a religious point of view. I have a problem with it from an empirical point of view. I believe many others here have the same assessment. Since you are on record as saying there is no model that handles macro evolution, we will have to see what you have said. If you are honest in your textbook then any mention you make of ID should be passed by here for our input to make sure it is correct. You seem to make a lot of erroneous conjectures about people here.jerry
February 17, 2009
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Whoever said they can't distinguish between law & chance and human agency couldn't even write down the thought if it were true as that person wouldn't be able to tell apart an information bearing message from the randomly arranged letters in a bowl of alphabet soup. I suppose they can't tell a sand dune apart from a space shuttle either. Like duh.DaveScot
February 17, 2009
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bFast:
Where do you get off creating yet another “definition of science”.
To say that a scientific hypothesis should be mathematically modellable is another way of saying that natural phenomenon should be, at least in principle, reducible to physics. I did not invent this idea. As Ernest Rutherford said: "Physics is the only real science. The rest are just stamp collecting." Collin:
Was Charles Darwin’s theory mathematically modellable at the time he proposed it?
To some degree, although I don't know if he himself produced any. I'll admit that I don't know the history of evolution well enough to know when mathematical models for it were first developed. They are abundant now. And computer models are now widespread throughout science so that anyone who thinks they can replace a well-developed theory like evolution without computer-modelling is delusional.B L Harville
February 17, 2009
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Several commentators in this thread and others have asserted (without corroboration) that although there is abundant evidence for microevolution (which they apparently accept), there is no evidence for macroevolution (which they do not accept, mainly because of its implications for their religious beliefs). I started to write a response to this, but it started to get very long, so I made it into a post on my own blog. You can read it here: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2009/02/macroevolution-examples-and-evidence.html After you do, I would appreciate any comments (and especially substantive criticisms) you might have...but please, save the ad hominems for each other. Thank you for goading me to write what will become yet another chapter in my forthcoming evolution textbook from John Wiley & Sons (due out in 2010).Allen_MacNeill
February 17, 2009
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Colling @19
By what criteria do we decide what is a credible explanation of how the flagellum evolved? What you find credible I may find incredible and a just so story.
If the process hypothesized relies solely on known natural mechanisms and does not require more than 4.5 billion years, it at least damages DaveScot's prediction. JJJayM
February 17, 2009
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Joseph @18
And yet there exist several design hypotheses- complete with predictions and falsifications.
I have not encountered these, despite actively searching for them. Cites? I am sympathetic to the ideas of ID, and because of that I want to see some rigor applied in the process of changing from an interesting speculation to a full science. If those of us who see the potential of ID don't do this, our detractors will destroy the nascent science. JJJayM
February 17, 2009
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DaveScot @17
KRiS is yet another sock puppet from the Panda’s Thumb forum. Same one I ejected a couple months ago when his subtle mockery of Denyse became too obvious. Just so y’all know.
That's a classic example of the ad hominem fallacy. If we want to see ID succeed, we need to address the arguments (which KRiS does make well), not that man. JJJayM
February 17, 2009
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B L Harville, Was Charles Darwin's theory mathematically modellable at the time he proposed it? If not, then does it mean that his theory was not a scientific theory? If not, should it have been rejected as pseudo-science? Hint: Mr. Darwin admitted that he was terrible at math. PS: I'm not saying that evolution is not mathematically modellable or a scientific theory.Collin
February 17, 2009
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