PZ Myers defends ID-Friendly University Course!

_{Salvador Cordova

April 30, 2013

Education, Humor, Intelligent Design}

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Jerry Coyne has infiltrated a heretofore secret ID operation at Ball State University. Since the secret is now out and in the hands of the Darwinists, I may as well report on it.

Ball State University, in Muncie, Indiana, is a public university (i.e., part of the state university system).
…
The course is taught by Eric Hedin, an assistant professor at Ball State’s Department of Physics and Astronomy. In one of its guises it’s an “honors” course, “Inquiries in the Physical Sciences,” which fulfills the science requirement for students as part of the University Core Curriculum:

Science Course at Ball State University

Look at the ID sympathetic bibliography:
Bibliography of the Syllabus

Coyne sounds the battle cry:

This has to stop, for Hedin’s course, and the University’s defense of it, violate the separation of church and state mandated by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (“freedom of religion”) and which has been so interpreted by the courts. It’s religion taught as science in a public university, and it’s not only wrong but illegal. I have tried approaching the University administration, and have been rebuffed.

This will now go to the lawyers.

But PZ disagrees and defends the constitutional right for the course to exist:

No, sorry, not right — academic freedom is the issue here, and professors have to have the right to teach unpopular, controversial issues, even from an ignorant perspective. The first amendment does not apply; this is not a course students are required to take, and it’s at a university, which students are not required to attend. It’s completely different from a public primary or secondary school.

I have to disagree with Jerry Coyne

I thought I might never ever say this, but may the Intelligent Designer bless you PZ!

HT: WT Bridgman

Comments

It struck me a while ago that the absolute speed of light indicates that, even though light interacts with space-time, and can even be be generated by us, space-time must belong to a subordinate level of reality to it. Does that make sense to you, Phil? Space-time relates to light, while light is arbitrary. Doesn't need friends! Just beams alongs on its merry way.Axel_{May 10, 2013
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Poor, old sigaba wants to retreat into Many Worlds, because he and his atheist confreres are brassed off with the mysteries of QM. But they've nowhere to go, have they? The progress made in QM, itself, from the moment of its inception, required a matter-of-fact acceptance of mysteries, and their incorporation in the framework of the normal, classical, scientific methodology. Anyway, what with all this non-locality and general proliferation of imponderable paradoxes, on top of the repudiation of the mechanistic-mindset, things have taken an ugly turn for them. Their inescapable recourse to paradoxes, unless oriented towards atheistic fantasies, such as the Many Worlds of nothing turning itself into everything AND ANYTHING, makes them like Shakespeare's schoolboy, 'the whining schoolboy with his satchel and shining morning face, creeping like a snail unwillingly to school.' Still... 'one day, my son....'Axel_{May 5, 2013
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'Photons, on which everything in the universe is dependent on so as to derive their most minute movements, are found to require a beyond space and time, ‘non-local’, cause to explain their continued existence in space time.' That interface, Phil.Axel_{May 5, 2013
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Yes, the level of control 'non-locally' displayed for even individual photons,,, ‘Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm ,,,completely blows any Deistic premise, much less an atheistic premise, completely out of the water. also of interest: non-local (spooky action at a distance) quantum entanglement is possible without the physical interaction of the particles first: Qubits that never interact could exhibit past-future entanglement - July 30, 2012 Excerpt: Typically, for two particles to become entangled, they must first physically interact. Then when the particles are physically separated and still share the same quantum state, they are considered to be entangled. But in a new study, physicists have investigated a new twist on entanglement in which two qubits become entangled with each other even though they never physically interact.,, In the current study, the physicists have proposed an experiment based on circuit quantum electrodynamics (QED) that is fully within reach of current technologies. They describe a set-up that involves a pair of superconducting qubits, P and F, with qubit P connected to a quantum field vacuum by a transmission line. During the first time interval, which the scientists call the past, P interacts with the field. Then P is quickly decoupled from the field for the second time interval. Finally, F is coupled to the field for a time interval called the future. Even though P and F never interact with the field at the same time or with each other at all, F’s interactions with the field cause it to become entangled with P. The physicists call this correlation “past-future entanglement.” http://phys.org/news/2012-07-qubits-interact-past-future-entanglement.html i.e. Photons, on which everything in the universe is dependent on so as to derive their most minute movements, are found to require a beyond space and time, ‘non-local’, cause to explain their continued existence in space time.bornagain77_{May 5, 2013
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'“Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,,' Wasn't that what I intimated a few months ago, when you remarked on the mystery of nothing being faster than the speed of light, yet photons at a distance from each other seemingly entangling simultaneously, Phil? Do you remember I said I'd never thought of the information as travelling at all, but that God's Spirit, as the matrix of Creation was what would have effected the simultaneous correlated spinning (whatever that might mean!) As a sop to our scientismical fantasist friends, 'God dun it'Axel_{May 5, 2013
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Non-Locality and Free Will confirmed yet again: Nonlocality and free will vs. many-worlds and determinism: The material world emerges from outside space-time - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q-YULI2WfBs#t=2469s Empty waves, many worlds, parallel lives, and nonlocal decision at detection - Antoine Suarez - 2012 Abstract: I discuss an experiment demonstrating nonlocality and conservation of energy under the assumption that the decision of the outcome happens at detection. The experiment does not require Bell's inequalities and is loophole-free. I further argue that the local hidden variables assumed in Bell's theorem involve de Broglie's "empty waves", and therefore "many worlds" achieves to reconcile locality with the violation of Bell's inequalities. Accordingly, the discussed experiment may be the first loophole-free demonstration of nonlocality. http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1732v1bornagain77_{May 5, 2013
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One of Coyne's "arguments" is that books like "The God Delusion" should be included to give the course some sort balance. Hellooooooo, all the materialists crap is covered in the other courses offered at the university. This course is designed to show the students that there are contrary points of view to materialism. BTW Jerry, "The God Delusion" has been trumped by "The Devil's Delusion"...Joe_{May 4, 2013
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Robert Byers at 6:
The schools all belong to the people.
No, they don't. Public schools, like Ball State, belong to the people. Private universities or religious schools (like the Jesuit university I attended) do not.
The truth is the objective in subjects where its clearly the objective.
This sentence makes no sense.
Origin classes are about the truth.
Technically, origin classes (your term) would discuss the origins of something, whether it's the universe, the Earth, or humanity. Linus Pauling famously stated that science is the search for the truth. I agree with him.
If something is censored then it either must be because its not the truth or despite it being a option for truth its still illegal.
No. Something is censored because someone (or several people) find something in it that's offensive. Truth has nothing to do with it. Neither does illegality.
If they censor creationism(s) then the state is either saying its not true or its admitting to censoring it because it doesn’t like the religious connections. if the latter then the state is acting against the separation idea.
The state "censors" creationism because it has been defined legally as being part of religious belief and, in the US, there is a wall of separation between church and state.
Why is my logic wrong here??
Because your premises are flawed.
It isn’t. so creationism can’t be censored because it touches on religion.
See above. Your argument fails on a couple of different levels.Barb_{May 4, 2013
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sigaba, perhaps you would like to pull off a QT experiment without any conscious observers whatsoever to prove your point? Or do you just like proclaiming your materialistic beliefs to be so without any proof whatsoever. I, on the other hand, can show that you, once again, have no clue what you are talking about: The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf The Renninger Negative Result Experiment - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3uzSlh_CV0bornagain77_{May 3, 2013
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Bornagain, that account of QT has both individuals sharing observations in concordance, QT wouldn't work otherwise. There's nothing subjective in how QT works.sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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Put more simply, a photon is not a self existent entity but is always dependent on a 'non-local', beyond space and time, cause to explain its continued existence within space-time. i.e. God 'sustains' the universe!
Aquinas’ Third way – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V030hvnX5a4 God Is the Best Explanation For Why Anything At All Exists – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjuqBxg_5mA
,,, to me, as a Theist, finding QM to fit hand in glove to what was postulated centuries before is, of course, something to be very excited about. But even as a person, who believes in the objectivity of science to reveal truth to us about reality, and tries to follow the evidence wherever it leads despite what I would a priorily prefer to believe philosophically, I can only wonder as to what sinister motive would possibly drive a atheist, who claims to believe in ‘rationality’, to fight so hard against what is so obvious from our science? Exactly what is the payoff for fighting so hard against Theism for a false nihilistic view of reality? Of related note, even though QM takes precedence over the space-time of General relativity as to being a more complete description of reality,,,
LIVING IN A QUANTUM WORLD – Vlatko Vedral – 2011 Excerpt: Thus, the fact that quantum mechanics applies on all scales forces us to confront the theory’s deepest mysteries. We cannot simply write them off as mere details that matter only on the very smallest scales. For instance, space and time are two of the most fundamental classical concepts, but according to quantum mechanics they are secondary. The entanglements are primary. They interconnect quantum systems without reference to space and time. If there were a dividing line between the quantum and the classical worlds, we could use the space and time of the classical world to provide a framework for describing quantum processes. But without such a dividing line—and, indeed, without a truly classical world—we lose this framework. We must explain space and time (4D space-time) as somehow emerging from fundamentally spaceless and timeless physics. http://phy.ntnu.edu.tw/~chchang/Notes10b/0611038.pdf
,,,even though QM takes precedence as the best description of reality, It seems that most Atheists, at least the ones I’ve interacted with, will not even accept this overwhelming evidence which is coming from looking at space-time itself:
“All the evidence we have says that the universe had a beginning.” - Cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of Tufts University in Boston – paper delivered at Stephen Hawking’s 70th birthday party (Characterized as ‘Worst Birthday Present Ever’) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/vilenkins-verdict-all-the-evidence-we-have-says-that-the-universe-had-a-beginning/
Music and verse:
Kari Jobe – Revelation Song – Passion 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dZMBrGGmeE REVELATION 4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”
bornagain77_{May 3, 2013
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Now this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future theory is simply unprecedented in science! And to find that free will is a required assumption in out most successful scientific theory is nothing less than amazing and should receive far more attention than it has thus far received!. Of related interest, here is an exchange a philosopher had with Einstein: Einstein was asked (by a philosopher):
“Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?”
Einstein’s answer was categorical, he said:
“The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.” Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video: Stanley L. Jaki: “The Mind and Its Now” https://vimeo.com/10588094
The preceding statement was an interesting statement for Einstein to make since ‘the now of the mind’ has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined Einstein’s General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality. i.e. ‘the now of the mind’, contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics (being the determinist he was), and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time. Moreover, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein’s answer to the philosopher in this way:
“It is impossible for the experience of ‘the now’ to ever be completely divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics.”
Since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think it is very fitting to reflect on the Christian perspective, on just how important our ‘free will’ choices are in this temporal life in regards to our eternal destiny:
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA
Verse and Music:
John 5:6 “Do you want to be healed?” Red – Feed The Machine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj2uZO7xnus
Myself, I like the argument for God from consciousness which is derived from the geometric considerations of the universe,,
The Galileo Affair and Life/Consciousness as the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3D state is centered on each individual conscious observer in the universe, whereas, 4D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism, Christian Theism in particular, offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe. [15] Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
Besides all this evidence being completely contrary the atheist’s/materialist’s starting presuppositions, it is interesting to note just how tightly all this evidence fits into the Theist’s starting presuppositions. Presuppositions that were derived centuries ago. For prime example:
The argument from motion is known as Aquinas’ First way. (Of note, St Thomas Aquinas lived from 1225 to 7 March 1274.) Aquinas’ First Way – (The First Mover – Unmoved Mover) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmpw0_w27As Aquinas’ First Way 1) Change in nature is elevation of potency to act. 2) Potency cannot actualize itself, because it does not exist actually. 3) Potency must be actualized by another, which is itself in act. 4) Essentially ordered series of causes (elevations of potency to act) exist in nature. 5) An essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act cannot be in infinite regress, because the series must be actualized by something that is itself in act without the need for elevation from potency. 6) The ground of an essentially ordered series of elevations from potency to act must be pure act with respect to the casual series. 7) This Pure Act– Prime Mover– is what we call God. http://egnorance.blogspot.com/.....t-way.html
Or to put it much more simply:
“The ‘First Mover’ is necessary for change occurring at each moment.” Michael Egnor – Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html
As well, not only is motion dependent on a “prime act”, i.e. on a ‘first mover’, but quantum non-locality also provides empirical confirmation for the ancient philosophical argument for ‘being’, for ‘existence’ itself!
Quantum Magic’ Without Any ‘Spooky Action at a Distance’ – June 2011 Excerpt: A team of researchers led by Anton Zeilinger at the University of Vienna and the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information of the Austrian Academy of Sciences used a system which does not allow for entanglement, and still found results which cannot be interpreted classically. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110624111942.htm
bornagain77_{May 3, 2013
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To continue on with the absurdities presented to us by atheists who insist on believing in 'many-worlds' which are presumably populated by a infinite number of atheists :)
Does Quantum Physics Make it Easier to Believe in God? July 2012 - Stephen M. Barr - professor of physics at the University of Delaware. Excerpt: The upshot is this: If the mathematics of quantum mechanics is right (as most fundamental physicists believe), and if materialism is right, one is forced to accept the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics. And that is awfully heavy baggage for materialism to carry. If, on the other hand, we accept the more traditional understanding of quantum mechanics that goes back to von Neumann, one is led by its logic (as Wigner and Peierls were) to the conclusion that not everything is just matter in motion, and that in particular there is something about the human mind that transcends matter and its laws. It then becomes possible to take seriously certain questions that materialism had ruled out of court: If the human mind transcends matter to some extent, could there not exist minds that transcend the physical universe altogether? And might there not even exist an ultimate Mind? http://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/does-quantum-physics-make-it-easier-believe-god Quantum Theory's 'Wavefunction' Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American - November 2011 Excerpt: "This strips away obscurity and shows you can't have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic," he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction
To make matters even worse for materialists, further advances in the experimental techniques of Quantum Mechanics, experimentation which, by the way, could care less if the atheist is able to maintain his a priori worldview or not, have only dramatically underscored this ‘weirdness’ that is highlighted by the double slit experiment:
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality – Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell’s thought experiment, Leggett’s inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we’re not observing it. “Our study shows that ‘just’ giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics,” Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. “You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism.” http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640
Of note to just how strongly 'consciousness centered' quantum theory is verified is noted here:
“I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications. A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? – 2008 Excerpt: So Zeilinger’s group rederived Leggett’s theory for a finite number of measurements. There were certain directions the polarization would more likely face in quantum mechanics. This test was more stringent. In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/
As well, as with any other robust theory of science, there are several different ways consciousness is confirmed to be ‘central’ to reality by quantum mechanics other than just Leggett's inequality:
Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit
In the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine our conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices effect past material states:
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic), as the materialist holds, how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past?,,, I consider the preceding experimental evidence to be a vast improvement over the traditional ‘uncertainty’ argument for free will, from quantum mechanics, that had been used to undermine the deterministic belief of materialists:
Why Quantum Physics (Uncertainty) Ends the Free Will Debate – Michio Kaku – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFLR5vNKiSw
Moreover, it is shown in the following paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will, or conscious observation, as starting assumptions in Quantum Mechanics!
Can quantum theory be improved? – July 23, 2012 Excerpt: physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html of note: *What does the term “measurement” mean in quantum mechanics? “Measurement” or “observation” in a quantum mechanics context are really just other ways of saying that the observer is interacting with the quantum system and measuring the result in toto. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597846
bornagain77_{May 3, 2013
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sigaba and Phinehas, The role of each conscious observer, and the choice(s) of each conscious observer, and the specific operations of logic that are used to achieve quantum teleportation in the teleportation experiments are summarized on the following site:
Quantum Teleportation - A summary Excerpt: Assume that Alice and Bob share an entangled qubit ab. That is, Alice has one half, a, and Bob has the other half, b. Let c denote the qubit Alice wishes to transmit to Bob. Alice applies a unitary operation on the qubits ac and measures (i.e. consciously observes) the result to obtain two classical bits. In this process, the two qubits are destroyed. Bob's qubit, b, now contains information about c; however, the information is somewhat randomized. More specifically, Bob's qubit b is in one of four states uniformly chosen at random and Bob cannot obtain any information about c from his qubit. Alice provides her two measured classical bits, which indicate which of the four states Bob possesses. Bob applies a unitary transformation which depends on the classical bits he obtains from Alice, transforming his qubit into an identical re-creation of the qubit c.,,, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation#A_summary summary of logical operations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation#The_result
But why in blue blazes should conscious observation (i.e. measurement) and the process by which one freely chooses to exercise operations of logic in a experiment have any effect whatsoever in the instantaneous teleporting of a material particle? with the only caveat being the classical communication channel that is necessary to decode the qubit? This simply makes no sense from the materialistic perspective in which it is held that everything (consciousness, free will, logic, life etc, etc..) 'emerges' from a material basis! As if that finding wasn't bad enough to give the honest atheist nightmares, (yes there is such a critter as a honest atheist, i.e. Thomas Nagel), here is a variation of the teleportation experiment that demonstrates "teleportation in time" which should, by all rights, make any 'honest' atheist break out in sweats:
Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement - January 2011 Excerpt: In "ordinary" quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it's possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call "teleportation in time." "To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology," Olson told PhysOrg.com. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-physicists-method-timelike-entanglement.html
Defying not just only Space but Time itself? Now a materialist who doesn't admit to being shocked by that experiment is just not connected to his materialistic roots! And it gets worse for the materialist. Much worse! It is good to go thru a bit of a review to show how bad it gets. Here Dr. Zeilinger, arguably the best experimentalist in quantum physics today,,,
Prof. Dr. Anton Zeilinger http://www.quantum.at/zeilinger/
,,,goes over the double slit experiment with Morgan Freeman:
Quantum Mechanics (QM) – Double Slit Experiment. Is anything really physical? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
In the preceding video Dr. Zeilinger states something that is very interesting:
“The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this or this slit. Neither are we allowed to say the photon passed through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable.”
“The path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. is a sentence that simply just does not fit into any materialistic scenario. Nor does the following finding find a place in materialism:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
Of course, all this ‘quantum weirdness’ was originally revealed to us by physicists trying to understand why the wave collapses in the double slit experiment simply by us observing it. Materialist, of course, are at a complete loss to explain why conscious observation should play any role in the experiment. Whereas the Theist is quite comfortable with consciousness having a central role in the experiment. But rather than the mainstream atheists/materialists accepting the obvious falsification of their worldview from the double slit experiment, and accepting the possibility that God may be real, they have invented the unverifiable many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics to try to ‘explain it away’. I guess it is just more comfortable for a atheist to think of an infinite number of themselves than to submit to almighty God! :) Needless to say (or at least it should be needless to say), the many-worlds conjecture of atheists is a view of reality that drives atheistic naturalism even further into epistemological failure than it already was (Boltzmann’s Brain; Plantinga’s EAAN).,,
You don't exist in an infinite number of places, say scientists - January 25, 2013 Excerpt: But the scientists' biggest criticism of the idea of infinite repetition in both proposals is the assumption that the universe is infinite. (i.e. all the evidence we have states the universe had a beginning),,, Soler Gil and Alfonseca note that, looking back at the history of physics, situations emerged where infinities seemed impossible to avoid, yet improved theories eliminated the infinities. Currently the two basic theories in physics, general relativity and quantum theory, both predict infinities. In relativity, it's gravity singularities in black holes and the big bang. In quantum theory, it's vacuum energy and certain parts of quantum field theory. Perhaps both theories are simple approximations of a third more general theory without infinities. Soler Gil and Alfonseca also note that, Paul Dirac once stated that the most important challenge in physics was "to get rid of infinity." While Soler Gil and Alfonseca can't disprove the proposals of infinite repetition, they emphasize that the point of their critique is to show that the idea remains in the realm of philosophy, mythology, and sci-fi tales, not modern cosmology. They call the speculation "ironic science," a term used by science journalist John Horgan to describe options that do not converge on truth but are at best "interesting." http://phys.org/news/2013-01-dont-infinite-scientists.html
As to a "a third more general theory without infinities" that they were looking for, I would like to submit,,,
The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The 'Event Horizon' On The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462
bornagain77_{May 3, 2013
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Phineas:
Does this mean everything has its origin in classical information?
I don't know what this means. Something you guys keep doing is equivocating between information and physical reality.sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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sigaba:
Information, at least in classical information theory, is simply uncertainty...
Interesting. How certain are you about the origin of everything? Does this mean everything has its origin in classical information? :) I'm not talking about Shannon information. I'm talking about the kind of information that is being communicated through our posts.Phinehas_{May 3, 2013
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phineas: But information is everywhere. Information, at least in classical information theory, is simply uncertainty, and anywhere you have a thermodynamic system you're going to have gobs of information. I know Dembski has a different definition and a narrower concept called "specified information," do you refer to that?sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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What does matter consist of other than its quantum state?
On the quantum level, matter has momentum and mass-energy. These are distinct quantities from the quantum state vector, subatomic state is a mapping that operates on these values, it transforms them but they're conserved over space and time. Further, while you can move quantum states from one particle to another, but you can't assemble particles together using teleportation, or arrange them chemically. Chemical bonds and the large-scale organization of matter is part of the physical world, too, and no one remotely knows how to reduce these things to "information." If you start with two photons at the beginning of your experiment, and you have two photons at the end, I think it's pretty evident no matter was created or destroyed.sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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sigaba:
Given only matter, information can be produced.
Can you elaborate on this? Is this wrong somehow?
Given your own standard ("...there’s no evidence that it’s actually possible. It must therefore be regarded as not possible for the time being") I would say the above must be regarded as not possible for the time being.Phinehas_{May 3, 2013
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sigaba: What does matter consist of other than its quantum state? :) Underestimating BA's knowledge and understanding would be a mistake.Phinehas_{May 3, 2013
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Phineas: A separate matter:
Given only matter, information can be produced.
Can you elaborate on this? Is this wrong somehow?sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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Phineas: I think you're misunderstanding QT. When they "teleport" information, they aren't creating or destroying any matter. They're taking a quantum state from one photon and applying it to another. You have one subatomic particle "A", and one subatomic particle "B" some distance away -- before the teleportation particle "A" is in some known state vector, like (3,2,0), and particle "B" is of an undetermined state. After the teleportation particle A is of undetermined state and particle "B" is in state (3,2,0). No matter or energy actually moves, you have the same number of particles before and after, all that's happened is you've moved the state from one particle to the other, and you've done it without transmitting any sort of signal and you've done it faster than the speed of light. So when he says "reduces," it sounds sorta mystical. Information definitely plays a role in quantum teleportation, but it's not interchangeable with mass or energy, it's not mutually "conserved" or converted from one into the other, you can't take information and make mass-energy out of it, not yet. I'd steer clear from that BA guy, his posts are like reading the label on a bottle of Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap. All he does is splatter quotes from popsci journals intermixed with crank websites.sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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F/N: Logically, given the matter-energy equivalence (e=mc^2), the above should hold true for energy as well.Phinehas_{May 3, 2013
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I don't want to put words in BA's mouth. He's much more familiar with this subject than I am. However, I think the point is this: Given only information, matter can be produced. This is basically what is happening with QT. The experiments are taking all of the information inherent in a matter qubit (which basically destroys that matter qubit) and using it to recreate the matter qubit instantaneously some distance from the original. (Since there is no more or less matter in existence before the experiment than there is after it, the First Law of Thermodynamics is not really broken.) Since the only thing that is "teleported" is the information, and not any sort of matter, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that matter is composed of information, or, put another way, that information reduces to matter. This is the opposite of the materialist/naturalist position that says: Given only matter, information can be produced.Phinehas_{May 3, 2013
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Yeah I totally accept that, I never doubted it. "I hold quantum information to have dominion of energy!" What does it mean "to have dominion of energy"? I originally thought you meant "reduce" to mean commute or transform, because you used it right after saying matter "normally reduces" to energy, and then said literally "mass and energy both reduce to information." 'Reduce' is taking on very different meanings there. And I still don't see how this relates to naturalism...sigaba_{May 3, 2013
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Thanks for the link Phinehas. Was a pleasant thing to wake up to and learn about. Physicists set new record for quantum teleportation with matter qubits - Apr 16, 2013 http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.htmlbornagain77_{May 3, 2013
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Darn html! ... Real Article LinkPhinehas_{May 2, 2013
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I’m sorry I think I’ve misunderstood. My original point was that QET wasn’t a real thing, there’s a hypothesis but there’s no evidence that it’s actually possible. It must therefore be regarded as not possible for the time being.
Why do you keep equivocating between Quantum Energy Teleportation and Quantum Teleportation? Have you considered that abandoning this equivocation might make things a bit more clear?
“Quantum teleportation does not transmute matter into information” is a completely accurate statement of current knowledge.
No, it isn't.
I don’t think an unsupported hypothesis makes BA partially correct — that’d be like saying “Primordial Soup” abiogenesis is partially correct.
Neither do I, but that statement has nothing to do with Quantum Teleportation, which has been successfully demonstrated a number of times. In fact, it has become ordinary enough that articles are now talking about setting records in Quantum Teleportation. http://phys.org/news/2013-04-physicists-quantum-teleportation-qubits.html TL;DR: - Quantum Energy Teleportation is theoretical, but as yet untested - Quantum Teleportation has been successfully demonstrated multiple times Clear?Phinehas_{May 2, 2013
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corrected link: Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – Entire Article http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/schmuel/papers/Aetal98.pdfbornagain77_{May 2, 2013
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sigaba, I never claimed that energy was being teleported in these experiments. In fact, from my current grasp of physics, I would hold that such is not possible. I claimed that energy is being reduced to quantum information in these teleportation experiments. I don't hold quantum information and energy to be equivalent. I hold quantum information to have dominion of energy! Moreover, teleportation experiments are far from hypothetical:
Quantum teleportation using active feed-forward between two Canary Islands - 2012 Excerpt: Here we report the first long-distance quantum teleportation experiment with active feed-forward in real time. The experiment employed two optical links, quantum and classical, over 143 km free space between the two Canary Islands of La Palma and Tenerife http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.3909
To go into a bit of detail of what is happening in teleportation experiments:
Measurement Of bell operator And Quantum Teleportation http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/schmuel/papers/bmB95.pdf
We find in the preceding paper that they state in paragraph 2, below the Fig.1 detector reference and equations on page 2:
“is effectively annihilating these photons to the vacuum state":
Looking up vacuum state we find.:
Physics of optoelectronics Excerpt: “In QED, a state without any photons (the vacuum state) has an average electric field of zero, but non-zero variance (which is proportional to the square of the field).” http://books.google.com/books?id=n7tKU1eU8SMC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354
Thus in quantum teleportation, photon "a" is effectively annihilated to the vacuum state whilst photon “c”, due to the quantum information being teleported, not due to the energy itself being teleported, becomes indistinguishable from what was photon “a”.,, sigaba, it is fairly unambiguous that energy is being reduced to quantum information in the experiment and that a photon is being 'annihilated' in the process. Do you disagree with that? supplemental notes:
Unconditional Quantum Teleportation - Entire Article Excerpt: However, quantum teleportation is also possible for continuous variables corresponding to states of infinite dimensional systems such as optical systems or the motion of massive particles,,,, Third, finite-dimensional systems can always be considered as sub-systems of infinite dimensional systems,,, http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:mbbwLqsfSe8J:cua.mit.edu/8.422_S05/QC-furusawa-kimble-teleportation-science282-5389-706-1998.pdf+Unconditional+Quantum+Teleportation&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgVUK99L13wxQtSzmXm63yyRkEJIITfWbujgLQH7zmgCJFPbWcywGsUqrbAL_OtdTajV81Mre-nOvs2FJ6YSNN3-5nehoVofppVQaJeCFC4XUGdag2NYjJ-WXOVvfFXdN2KYBfS&sig=AHIEtbS7LKVUGhljM80G6qp7_dKuYIJXxg
(Of note; by incorporating "Victor" into their scheme they are able to achieve a much more accurate measurement that insures the teleportation is "perfect",,,"every state" is teleported, a state which is mathematically defined as infinite information)
Teleportation of Continuous Quantum Variables - Samuel L. Braunstein - pg. 870 bottom left corner Excerpt page 870 at the bottom of the left hand column: that such ideal detectors provide “perfect” information about (photon equation), while all information about (photon equation) is lost. Furthermore, although (photon equation) contains a small amount of information about the fiducial state (photon equation), this information goes to zero for r goes to infinity! http://authors.library.caltech.edu/3827/1/BRAprl98.pdf
further notes:
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence Does the quantum wave function represent reality? April 2012 by Lisa Zyga Excerpt: “Similarly, our result that there is a one-to-one correspondence between the wave function and the elements of reality means that, if we know a system's wave function then we are exactly in such a favorable situation: any information that there exists in nature and which could be relevant for predicting the behavior of a quantum mechanical system is represented one-to-one by the wave function. In this sense, the wave function is an optimal description of reality.” http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-function-reality.html
Moreover, A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ’1 or 0? state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness, due to geometric considerations, is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction to its particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon to its single bit state? Verse and Music:
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Skillet - Awake and Alive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aJUnltwsqs
bornagain77_{May 2, 2013
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