Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The folly of projecting group-stereotype guilt and the present kairos

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The kairos concept is, in a nutshell, that there are seasons in life and in community, so that there are times that are opportune or even simply pivotal and trend-making. At such times, we are forced to decide, for good or ill. And yes, carry on with business as usual . . . especially on a manifest march of folly . . . is a [collective, power-balance driven] decision; ill advised though it may be:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

More formally:

With that in mind, I now draw attention to Chenyuan Snider’s expose of some of the more terrifying Red Guard-like group-guilt, stereotyping and scapegoating tactics of the totalitarian government she grew up under; here, targetting a particularly revered group in historic, Confucius- influenced Chinese culture, teachers. Let me excerpt to highlight the power dynamics at work:

Mrs Chenyuan Snider, Artist and Teacher

When I was a first grader, there was a new political movement initiated by the Communist Party in China – the anti-teacher movement. It was precipitated by a tragic incident in which a student in China’s remote countryside attempted suicide because of mistreatment by her teacher. Overnight, all teachers in China were considered evil by virtue of being teachers. As students, we were ordered by the authorities to write about our teachers’ unscrupulous behavior towards us. It was mandatory. Every student had to write a condemnation about their own teacher on a poster and paste it on the wall. The bigger the poster and the longer the criticism, the holier the student became. In other words, the more a teacher was vilified, the more righteous the student appeared. There was no time for anyone to process and digest the new situation because it came like a huge wave engulfing everyone. During my time growing up in China, there were several movements during which one group was set up against another. These movements had proven to be enormously effective for the communist government to consolidate power. In the process, enemies were eliminated . . . .

Throughout history, wherever there are humans, there is injustice. However, when events are interpreted not as the fault of individuals, but rather, as a fault of a certain group, it creates hostility between large numbers of people. Through propaganda and political correctness one group can claim ascendant status over another. But this does not resolve the issues. In reality, tension from both sides continues to build up and intensify, which in turn produces more injustice and opposition. The justice that is due to the true victim is often buried in the larger struggle between groups. In the end, the victim is used as a prop serving the purpose of fighting the opposition.

This is of course reflective of the common folly of projecting blame or disdain to race, class, age [or want of age], sex, profession, honest occupation or the like. Surely, we can agree with the apostles and prophets that we partake of the common grace of life, sharing a common Imago Dei.

However, as a civilisation, we now face a recrudescence of one of the worst plagues afflicting our civilisation over the past quarter-millennium, [neo-]Marxism. Here, in a plethora of manifestations of so-called Critical Theories, more accurately: cultural form, mutant Marxism.

Let’s excerpt SEP, to see a self-congratulatory, programmatic self-description (on the way to urgently needed critique):

“Critical Theory” in the narrow sense designates several generations of German philosophers and social theorists in the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School. According to these theorists, a “critical” theory may be distinguished from a “traditional” theory according to a specific practical purpose: a theory is critical to the extent that it seeks human “emancipation from slavery”, acts as a “liberating … influence”, and works “to create a world which satisfies the needs and powers” of human beings (Horkheimer 1972, 246). Because such theories aim to explain and transform all the circumstances that enslave human beings, many “critical theories” in the broader sense have been developed. They have emerged in connection with the many social movements that identify varied dimensions of the domination of human beings in modern societies. In both the broad and the narrow senses, however, a critical theory provides the descriptive and normative bases for social inquiry aimed at decreasing domination and increasing freedom in all their forms.

Critical Theory in the narrow sense has had many different aspects and quite distinct historical phases that cross several generations, from the effective start of the Institute for Social Research in the years 1929–1930, which saw the arrival of the Frankfurt School philosophers and an inaugural lecture by Horkheimer, to the present. Its distinctiveness as a philosophical approach that extends to ethics, political philosophy, and the philosophy of history is most apparent when considered in light of the history of the philosophy of the social sciences. Critical Theorists have long sought to distinguish their aims, methods, theories, and forms of explanation from standard understandings in both the natural and the social sciences. Instead, they have claimed that social inquiry ought to combine rather than separate the poles of philosophy and the social sciences: explanation and understanding, structure and agency, regularity and normativity. Such an approach, Critical Theorists argue, permits their enterprise to be practical in a distinctively moral (rather than instrumental) sense. They do not merely seek to provide the means to achieve some independent goal, but rather (as in Horkheimer’s famous definition mentioned above) seek “human emancipation” in circumstances of domination and oppression. This normative task cannot be accomplished apart from the interplay between philosophy and social science through interdisciplinary empirical social research (Horkheimer 1993). While Critical Theory is often thought of narrowly as referring to the Frankfurt School that begins with Horkheimer and Adorno and stretches to Marcuse and Habermas, any philosophical approach with similar practical aims could be called a “critical theory,” including feminism, critical race theory, and some forms of post-colonial criticism . . . .

It follows from Horkheimer’s definition that a critical theory is adequate only if it meets three criteria: it must be explanatory, practical, and normative, all at the same time. That is, it must explain what is wrong with current social reality, identify the actors to change it, and provide both clear norms for criticism and achievable practical goals for social transformation.

That ever so humble but sometimes inadvertently revealing crowd-source, Wikipedia, gives somewhat less subtly shielded details:

Critical theory is the reflective assessment and critique of society and culture to reveal and challenge power structures. It argues that social problems are influenced and created more by societal structures and cultural assumptions than by individual and psychological factors. Critical theory has origins in sociology and also in literary criticism. The sociologist Max Horkheimer described a theory as critical insofar as it seeks “to liberate human beings from the circumstances that enslave them”.[1]

In sociology and political philosophy, the term Critical Theory describes the Western Marxist philosophy of the Frankfurt School, which was developed in Germany in the 1930s. This use of the term requires proper noun capitalization,[citation needed] whereas “a critical theory” or “a critical social theory” may have similar elements of thought, but does not stress the intellectual lineage specific to the Frankfurt School. Frankfurt School critical theorists drew on the critical methods of Karl Marx and Sigmund Freud. Critical theory maintains that ideology is the principal obstacle to human liberation.[2] Critical theory was established as a school of thought primarily by the Frankfurt School theoreticians Herbert Marcuse, Theodor Adorno, Max Horkheimer, Walter Benjamin, and Erich Fromm. Modern critical theory has additionally been influenced by György Lukács and Antonio Gramsci, as well as the second generation Frankfurt School scholars, notably Jürgen Habermas. In Habermas’s work, critical theory transcended its theoretical roots in German idealism and progressed closer to American pragmatism. Concern for social “base and superstructure” is one of the remaining Marxist philosophical concepts in much of contemporary critical theory.[3]

Postmodern [–> thus, current] critical theory analyzes the fragmentation of cultural identities in order to challenge modernist era constructs such as metanarratives, rationality and universal truths, while politicizing social problems “by situating them in historical and cultural contexts, to implicate themselves in the process of collecting and analyzing data, and to relativize their findings”.[4]

Ironically, the “metanarrative” of Western, white male domination and the heroic effort to overthrow it is, of course, an obvious self-referentially incoherent element in all this. And, as we saw from Ms Snider, once sociopathic radical ideologues use this metanarrative to target those whom they wish to turn into scapegoats, the door yawns to group guilt on core characteristics that are genetic or so shaped by one’s life story as to be key to one’s identity, leading to terrifying injustice through agit prop, media amplification of street theatre, media lynch mobs, lawfare, show trials and oh so convenient “progressive” solutions.

If such does not ring true, it should.

Now, several years ago, here at UD, I put on the table an alternative framework for political spectra, informed by historical trends and linked factors on modern liberty and constitutional, democratic self-government through elected representatives:

U/d b for clarity, nb Nil

It seems to me, that this is a useful framework to speak to some ugly trends of our time that are not without relevance to the marginalising, stereotyping, slandering, expelling and scapegoating of supporters of Intelligent Design. But then, it — more significantly — speaks far more broadly.

The natural state of humanity is tyranny, or at most some degree of lawfulness under a somewhat fair-minded governing elite. The antithesis to that is the raw, untamed wilderness, the “dark and bloody ground” of the so-called state of nature. That description, is how Kentucky (then a mutually agreed hunting grounds of the tribes) was described to one Daniel Boone, by Amerindians. Such a state is so abhorrent, so prone to naked theft, murder and rapine, that it is a repeller-pole that drives communities towards the vortex of tyranny. From which, historically, as a rule one only escapes by rivers of blood and tears.

In my considered opinion, it was only as the rise of moveable-type print coupled to a religious ferment emphasising freedom of conscience and individual accountability before God, that the unstable but sustainable middle ground emerged. Between 1450 and 1650, the groundwork for democratising reforms with due buttressing from key community institutions enabled the rise of modern, elected representative, parliamentary democracy constrained not only by a tradition-bound corpus of law, but by explicit Constitutions pivoting crucially on Bills of Rights articulated on built-in, conscience attested principles of natural law. I should add, interestingly, all of these happened in lands that acceded to Christian Civilisation and which had a significantly Germanic cultural base with its emphasis on freedom, thus consent to legitimate rule.

Where, let us recall, some core theses:

Thus, as we see in Augustine’s and Aquinas’ reflections:

Where, we may see Aquinas’ theme of a naturally evident, intelligible (so, sound conscience attested), creation-order based framework for civil law and for reformation:

We still hear an echo of this in the concept of crimes that shock the conscience. Such crimes can be done by some brigand hiding in a cave, but they can also be done by those in positions of lawful power or even some who pose as liberators. Crimes can even be done under false colours of law or rights and even that of processes of justice, through lawfare.

In my considered view, the ongoing abortion holocaust of our living posterity in the womb . . . 800+ millions in 40+ years and mounting up by another better part of a million per week [statistics suggests 1.4 billion] . . . is a capital, utterly civilisation corrupting example.

Litmus Test: if one cannot pass the test of standing up for the unborn, further claims to be a champion of liberation of the oppressed can be disregarded.

However, in our day, the toxic brew we face is compounded by a widespread rejection of the natural law vision with its pivot on sound conscience sensitive to truth, duty, justice. I here point to legal positivism and the nihilism that crouches at the door.

Again, SEP is subtly veiled, but enough sticks out that we can pick up hints as to the lurking reefs of a graveyard of ships of state:

Legal positivism is the thesis that the existence and content of law depends on social facts and not on its merits. The English jurist John Austin (1790–1859) formulated it thus:

>>The existence of law is one thing; its merit and demerit another. Whether it be or be not is one enquiry; whether it be or be not conformable to an assumed standard, is a different enquiry. (1832 [1995: 157]) >>

The positivist thesis does not say that law’s merits are unintelligible, unimportant, or peripheral to the philosophy of law. It says that they do not determine whether laws or legal systems exist. Whether a society has a legal system depends on the presence of certain structures of governance, not on the extent to which it satisfies ideals of justice, democracy, or the rule of law. What laws are in force in that system depends on what social standards its officials recognize as authoritative; for example, legislative enactments, judicial decisions, or social customs. The fact that a policy would be just, wise, efficient, or prudent is never sufficient reason for thinking that it is actually the law, and the fact that it is unjust, unwise, inefficient or imprudent is never sufficient reason for doubting it. According to positivism, law is a matter of what has been posited (ordered, decided, practiced, tolerated, etc.). Austin thought the thesis “simple and glaring”. While it is probably the dominant view among analytically inclined philosophers of law, it is also the subject of competing interpretations together with persistent criticisms and misunderstandings.

Wikipedia is again inadvertently more frank and tellingly revealing:

Legal positivism is a school of thought of analytical jurisprudence developed largely by legal philosophers during the 18th and 19th centuries, such as Jeremy Bentham and John Austin. While Bentham and Austin developed legal positivist theory, empiricism provided the theoretical basis for such developments to occur. The most prominent legal positivist writer in English has been H. L. A. Hart, who, in 1958, found common usages of “positivism” as applied to law to include the contentions that:

— laws are commands of human beings;

— there is not any necessary relation between law and morality, that is, between law as it is and as it ought to be;

— analysis (or study of the meaning) of legal concepts is worthwhile and is to be distinguished from history or sociology of law, as well as from criticism or appraisal of law, for example with regard to its moral value or to its social aims or functions;

— a legal system is a closed, logical system in which correct decisions can be deduced from predetermined legal rules without reference to social considerations;

— moral judgments, unlike statements of fact, cannot be established or defended by rational argument, evidence, or proof (“noncognitivism” in ethics).[1]

Historically, legal positivism is in opposition to natural law’s theories of jurisprudence, with particular disagreement surrounding the natural lawyer’s claim that there is a necessary connection between law and morality.

Got that? As in, “moral judgments, unlike statements of fact, cannot be established or defended by rational argument, evidence, or proof.”

Thus, then, “legal positivism is in opposition to natural law’s theories of jurisprudence, with particular disagreement surrounding the natural lawyer’s claim that there is a necessary connection between law and morality.”

Morality and justice, having been banished to the realms of irrationality, law is severed from the premise of morality, thus, justice. Nihilism — raw, untrammelled will to power (tempered only by cunning calculation as to what one can get away with, or cannot YET get away with) crouches at the door.

Enter, stage left, the sociopath with power or hoping to gain power; even under the guise of righting grave wrongs and liberating the oppressed. (And we need not detain ourselves on cheap agit prop stunts of turnabout projection as to who is oppressor. All polities are prone to injustices, the issue is to keep open a path to sound reformation.)

Destination, tyranny and the ruinous march of angry fools following a demonically anointed false political messiah:

Reformation is indicated, in defence of our civilisation.

As a start-point, we must recognise certain inescapable first principles and duties of reason that not only pervade but actually govern all of our rationality. Pace the legal positivists, morality is central to rationality and is itself rational, pivoting on self-evident first principles.

How can we — in an age blighted by selective hyperskepticism sitting in the seat of proper prudence — have confidence in such?

Simple, the very one who objects to such principles, inevitably, inescapably, implicitly, ALWAYS appeals to our intuitive adherence to such first duties of reason. So, we may freely hold that what is inescapably bound up in our rational life is just as inescapably, manifestly, necessarily, self-evidently true.

Where, of course, I here speak of our inescapable first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice, etc.

Epictetus gives us a classic demonstration in a nutshell:

DISCOURSES
CHAPTER XXV

How is logic necessary?

When someone in [Epictetus’] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Cf J. C. Wright]

Let the legal positivist or critical theorist object rationally and responsibly without implicitly relying on such, if he can: _______ . We confidently, freely hold that he cannot do so.

On this, we may go down the line of asking what sort of reality root must obtain, in a world of such rationally, morally governed creatures. There is no serious answer to that, but that that root is the inherently good, utterly wise source of worlds. A familiar figure, but we need not explore that side, other than to note that the rise of both so called legal positivism and cultural marxism trace to the rise of atheism as a mass movement. First, among intellectual classes then more widely as ideologies dressed up in lab coats took root and seized cultural high ground.

That is significant, as it implies that needed reform has to challenge such intellectual roots and correct such ideologies. Which brings us to the general relevance of a useful but sometimes controversial mapping exercise:

You tell me that this model — originally tracing to the circle, Bill Bright, Loren Cunningham and Francis Schaeffer 40+ years past — does not capture a good slice of the issue. I think, we can freely use it as a map . . . which is not the territory but if well made, a helpful guide to it. (I suggest, using it in two modes: one, as a map of high ground dominating community life with seven metaphorical hills to match the famous seven hills of Rome; two, as a temple with seven columns that support and are in turn protected by a common roof.)

So, we can clearly see elements of the witches’ brew and storm that has begun to break across our civilisation in this, The Year of Our Lord, 2020, MMXX.

We have to challenge worldviews and cultural agendas, exposing Overton Window power games:

(Who would have thought that significant voices in a leading power in our day, would irresponsibly call for “defunding the police” in the context of a case where one officer . . . on evidence, likely for good reason . . . faces Murder 1 charges and three juniors face only slightly lesser charges? That, shocks both mind and conscience. Yes, reform the police is always a legitimate issue, defunding them would only trigger snap-back to the vortex of tyranny. If you needed evidence of a fourth generation, agit prop, media manipulation and lawfare driven, so far low kinetic civil war in that power, there it is. A voyage of folly is ruinous as the ghosts of Socrates, Plato and even Alcibiades would jointly warn.)

However, the issue is far wider and deeper than current political and police follies. Reformation is what is needed, and that has to engage worldviews roots. Such as, turtles all the way down being impossible:

“Turtles, all the way down . . . ” vs a root cause

Let us consider how we get to worldview root level, first plausible framework faith points:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

In this context, rebalancing how we consume mass and nowadays social media will be necessary also — as one of our very first steps:

Similarly, it is clear that cultural marxism and legal positivism cannot make the grade. So, it is time for serious re-thinking towards sound reformation. Otherwise, shipwreck. END

PS: Notice how street protesters in DC added to the BLM street slogan put up by the Mayor:

In broad daylight:

WASHINGTON, DC – JUNE 08: People walk down 16th street after ‚ÄúDefund The Police‚Äù was painted on the street near the White House on June 08, 2020 in Washington, DC. After days of protests in DC over the death of George Floyd, DC Mayor Muriel Bowser has renamed that section of 16th street “Black Lives Matter Plaza”. (Photo by Tasos Katopodis/Getty Images)

The platform:

PPS: Warlordism and “protection” demands emerge in Seattle WA, USA — anarchy is a repeller pole that tends to push communities to the vortex of tyranny:

PPPS: The monument to fallen police officers that was recently vandalised:

And, after repeated vandalisation this is the statue of the man who warned against appeasing Herr Schicklegruber and Co. then led Britain’s lonely stand with backs to the wall in 1940. Yes, Sir Winston Spencer Churchill, in London:

Comments
Acartia Eddie:
If a serial murderer is in jail, there is no risk to society or to individuals within it.
You don't know that.
The death penalty is not justice, it is revenge.
Wrong, again.
If a single undifferentiated cell has the inalienable right to life, as you claim, how do you justify the taking of the life of a fully conscious human?
What an ignorant ass, you are Acartia Eddie. No one aborts a single undifferentiated cell, you clueless loser. And if said fully conscious human committed murder, that alone is justification for ending their life.
If I were a woman in my thirties and got pregnant by accident, I probably would not have an abortion.
What? How can someone get pregnant by accident? Is there sperm floating in the air, waiting to land in the right spot? A woman in her thirties who doesn't understand how babies are made, reminds me of your intellectual vacuity, though.ET
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
08:39 AM
8
08
39
AM
PDT
The U.S. BTW has some of the most liberal abortion laws in the world. Here is an article by someone who is “pro-choice,” comparing abortion laws in Europe with the U.S.
I assumed that Western Europe would be the land of abortion on demand, likely government-subsidized, and possibly with a free bag of condoms afterward. But as it turns out, abortion laws in Europe are both more restrictive and more complicated than that… Waiting periods, decried by American pro-choicers as infantilizing and unreasonably burdensome, are common in Western Europe. In Germany, women seeking first-trimester abortions are subject to a mandatory three-day waiting period and a counseling session. Abortions after the first 12 weeks of pregnancy are forbidden except in cases of grave threat to the mother's physical or mental health. The Netherlands mandates a five-day waiting period between initial consultation and abortion; clinics must provide women with information about abortion alternatives. Abortion is then legal until viability (legally defined as 24 weeks, usually interpreted as 22 weeks). In Belgium, where abortion was illegal until 1990, there's a six-day waiting period and the woman must claim to be in "a state of distress" before receiving a first-trimester abortion.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/john_a_designer
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
08:23 AM
8
08
23
AM
PDT
KF
Likewise, there is a patent world of difference between addressing violent criminality and enabling under false colours of law and rights the mass slaughter of our living posterity in the womb at a bit under a million further victims per week.
If a serial murderer is in jail, there is no risk to society or to individuals within it. The death penalty is not justice, it is revenge. If a single undifferentiated cell has the inalienable right to life, as you claim, how do you justify the taking of the life of a fully conscious human? If I were a woman in my thirties and got pregnant by accident, I probably would not have an abortion. If I were sixteen, I probably would. If I were raped, I definitely would. My daughter terminated an ectopic pregnancy. The odds of it being carried to term are extremely low, but not zero. Based on a medical study, the risk of maternal death was low (1.4%). I have no doubt that she made the right choice.Ed George
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PDT
seversky:
This is not a problem for evolutionists...
Evolutionists cannot account for life nor its diversity. They are perhaps the most clueless lot on this planet. Even more so than flat earthers.ET
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
08:07 AM
8
08
07
AM
PDT
Society does not have the right to decide what the boundaries are. As for not understanding the meanings of words, that is something that exemplifies you, Acartia EddieET
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
KF
Notice, the language of the declaration: unalienable.
That is, rights are not commodities but can become forfeit under certain circumstances. I do not think that word means what you think it means.
“ unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.”
The right to life is a right that society decides what the bounds are. At present, society has decided that it can be abrogated under certain circumstances. Things like self defense and wars. And, under more restricted circumstances, abortion and doctor assisted suicide. These may change as society changes but I, and the majority of society, is comfortable with the balance that has developed. You are not happy with it. That is the nature of society.Ed George
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
My position, for what it's worth, is that the right to life should be considered to cover the whole of an individual's existence as a living being. Abortion, therefore, would be a breach of that right except in cases of threats to the mother's life and well-being. For those who would deny it even in cases of incest and rape they must accept responsibility for continuing the trauma inflicted on the victim and decide if they have the moral right so to do. This must be set against the argument that the unborn child did not choose to be conceived in that way and does not deserve to die because of it. There are no easy solutions to these moral dilemmas. The problem for pro-lifers is that if they really want to ban abortion they need to change the law. The whole-life right to life needs to be given statutory force but, thus far, both the courts and legislatures have sidestepped the issue. Unless and until the pro-life movement can carry the majority of the country with them, abortion will remain both legal and even moral, at least in some cases. Concerning the pro-life pregnancy advice centers, providing the medical information they provide is as accurate as they can make it and they are open about the religious or moral impulse which drives them then they should be free to offer whatever support they can. However, the reason I cited those two account about the Irish maternity homes is that not only did that appalling treatment occur in a country which prided itself on its Christian faith but it was perpetrated, not by atheists or progressives, but by an order of nuns, for Mog's sake. Sadly, we have all too much evidence of the extremes to which religious zeal will drive some believers. We also have, in the US, some of the public faces of Christianity which either hold extreme views or are manifestly corrupt so it would be highly irresponsible to entrust the welfare of vulnerable women to a faith that apparently cannot hold itself to the high ideals it professes. As for overheated rhetoric about 'Holocausts' and a 'Culture of Death, the abortion rate in the US is roughly equivalent to the commonly-quoted figure for miscarriages or spontaneous abortions, which is around 20%. The is more recent research which argues that the true rate for spontaneous abortions is much higher, more like 50% or possibly even higher. This is not a problem for evolutionists because we expect waste and inefficiency in biological processes. Evolution works with just-good-enough rather than the-best-possible solutions. However, for Christians the problem is different. By their beliefs, the human reproductive system was designed by their Creator. A Creator who is all-knowing and all-powerful, a Creator who would have had the knowledge and the power to do otherwise, to design a reproductive system that is not so appallingly wasteful of potential human life but chose not to. So we have to assume He is content with the loss of those uncounted billions of unborn human beings, a casualty rate for which He, if He exists, should be held responsible. And if He is content with such wastage who are His creatures - made in imago dei - to decide otherwise?Seversky
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
JAD, I'm not quite at the negotiating stage, JAD. I'm just curious about how KF (and any others) answer my question.daveS
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
The only side that has been willing to compromise in any way is the prolife side. For example, in Ohio where I live they just recently the passed the so called heart beat bill. This would not ban abortion out right but strictly limit it to very early in a woman’s pregnancy. https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA132-HB-258 Of course, so far it’s been blocked by the courts. Meanwhile abortionists are not only okay with abortion but with late term abortion and even infanticide. So I find question’s like Dave’s to be rather disingenuousjohn_a_designer
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
06:55 AM
6
06
55
AM
PDT
daves- If both the mother and baby will die if an abortion is not performed.ET
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
KF, Are there any circumstances under which abortion would be moral?daveS
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PDT
Because a couple cops are rapists all cops are rapists. No I didn’t make a spelling error. The fact is there have been policemen who are not only rapists but serial rapists. https://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-xpm-20000427-2000-04-27-0004270008-story.html https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/26/606060349/after-arrest-of-suspected-golden-state-killer-details-of-his-life-emerge So we should shut police departments nationwide because of this? That’s the same logic being used by BLM because a few cops are racists.john_a_designer
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
05:59 AM
5
05
59
AM
PDT
Acartia Eddie:
My daughter terminated her pregnancy last month because of a risk to her health. Was that absolutely wrong?
Every pregnancy comes with the risk to the mother's health. YOU said the risk to your daughter was very low. So yes, what your daughter did was wrong. And that you refuse to apologize for your asinine nonsense, is also wrong.ET
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
05:38 AM
5
05
38
AM
PDT
EG, again, you speak irrelevantly and simplistically, abusing "absolute." Notice, the language of the declaration: unalienable. That is, rights are not commodities but can become forfeit under certain circumstances. For example if an aggressive robber gang invades my home, theft, rapine, rape and murder in hand, I have a natural right of defence. This extends to civil society and to criminality or aggressive invasion. Nationhood and bills of rights are not suicide pacts. And in the case of rioting and arson, looting and mayhem etc, a threshold is crossed where self defence and defence of the civil peace of justice can warrant potentially lethal responses as anarchic disorder leading to blood feuds and warlordism are manifestly unjust by contrast. Likewise, there is a patent world of difference between addressing violent criminality and enabling under false colours of law and rights the mass slaughter of our living posterity in the womb at a bit under a million further victims per week. The failure to recognise and respond appropriately to such is a red warning flag. Some re-thinking is due on your part. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
03:31 AM
3
03
31
AM
PDT
RP, slavery encompasses a huge semantic range, e.g. having a large debt such as mortgage would come within that range as would be being a civil servant or Cabinet officer. Indeed, that is part of how the "servant" got in there; think the slaves who ran the admin side of government through Caesar's household. Under certain circumstances, people faced an option of indenture or death by starvation etc. In that context, we need to have a far more nuanced understanding than is conveyed by our image of the worst of racially loaded plantation chattel slavery. One of the key principles is to understand the difference between establishing an order of the times and recognising a fact and regulating it, often with ameliorative elements. For example, in the Biblical text we see "I hate divorce" even as we see regulations thereof and warnings about. Likewise for polygamy. In that context, let us reckon with the near-universal presence of enslavement down to the point where a critical mass were able to assemble and gradually push through abolition of the kidnapping based trade then plantation chattel slavery. And despite that, there are probably more enslaved people today than ever before, hence issues on human trafficking, sex worker enslavement, debt bondage and much more. Just, we do not use the word. Let us learn to recognise our own flaws and need for reform, then let us realise that societies will inevitably be deeply flawed so to demand perfection is little more than a manipulative, polarising tactic that undermines ability to learn from history and one another. For example, of course Churchill had racist attitudes, something that was widespread in his times. At the same time, warts, flaws and all, he led the lonely and risky backs to the wall stand that held the line against tyranny of the worst order. Much the same can be said regarding Jefferson and Washington et al, and many others. To give us an example Olaudah Equiano, the most significant Montserratian in history, bought manumission here in 1766, making his way to the UK. There, he actually joined in a scheme in the UK to try an experiment with ameliorating conditions of enslavement. Eventually, he became a significant abolitionist . . . having realised that abolition was possible, even, conceivable . . . and even author of a key anti-slavery biographically based narrative. One that had significant sponsorship, IIRC including by the then Prince of Wales. In turn, that and his strongly manifest evangelical faith were part of the process of democratising reforms consequent on printing, Bible in vernacular, rise of newspapers, coffee house discussion circles and the like that gradually opened up the possibilities for modern representational, constitutional democracy. The sustainable abolitions from the 1830's on were only possible because of the ferment just described. History is a lot more complicated than we tend to see. KFkairosfocus
June 13, 2020
June
06
Jun
13
13
2020
03:19 AM
3
03
19
AM
PDT
Socialist use the media for the purpose of propaganda to being about their desired goals. They pick and choose the outrage of the day, just as they pick and choose their villains. The schools, from lowest to highest levels are not about education, but indoctrination. If it was about education, the US would not be on a continual decent. Furthermore, if the schools believed in education, then you would not have anyone claiming there is no difference between a man and a woman. Biology shows very real differences between the two, beyond a man cannot get pregnant and a woman does not have a prostate. The Democratic party has a long history of racism and anti-Semitism, which continues to this day. Joe Biden made racist comments about Obama when he was running against him, which has since been ignored. Joe Lieberman was Gore's running mate, but forced out of the party over his support for Israel. Other than that, he voted with Democrats across the board. Representatives Tlaib and Omar have made numerous anti-Semitic statements and have never been penalized. Neither has lost so much as a committee. Margaret Sanger was a racist and eugenicist. Anyone who has taken any time at all can find the evidence quickly. She was the founder of Planned Parenthood. Hillary Clinton, upon accepting the Margaret Sanger award from Planned Parenthood, noted just how much she admired Margaret Sanger. Hillary Clinton, like all good Democrats working towards Socialism, has been given cover by the media, just as they do with Biden today. Between the media and the indoctrination laughingly called education, people believe the Dixiecrats came about in 1968, even though it happened 20 years earlier. If all the Dixiecrats became Republicans, as is the spin, then why did the Dixiecrat states vote against Eisenhower that same year? The segregation of the federal government, including the military, happened with Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat who spent his first term building anti-German sentiment in order to bring the US onto the side of the French. Segregation remained until Eisenhower became president. Every racist policy started by Wilson was continued throughout FDR's administration.BobRyan
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
11:21 PM
11
11
21
PM
PDT
Black Lives Matter should be changed to Certain Black Lives Matter. There is no concern for the loss of black lives when black on black violence occurs. There is no concern for black children that are murdered through abortion. There is no concern for those who overdose and die. There is no concern when a drive-by shooting kills black people of all ages. The only lives that matter are the rare occasions in which a white police officer is involved. There close to a million officers, between local and state, who interact with the public millions of times a day. If all police officers are racist and looking to shoot black people, why does it not happen more often than it does. Statistically, a white person who is unarmed is killed by police is far more likely to happen than a black person who is unarmed.BobRyan
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
11:04 PM
11
11
04
PM
PDT
“Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated.” - Margaret Sanger. This March, Time Magazine named Margaret Sanger the 1925 Woman of the Year. In 2009, Hillary Clinton accepted Planned Parenthood's Margaret Sanger Award. Black Lives Matter?Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:46 PM
8
08
46
PM
PDT
If you mean "Black Life Matters" the political party using that now-meaningless slogan … No, I adopt a different brand of politics that actually cares about people.
Black Life Matters collaborates with Planned Parenthood So let's get this straight, my Black Brothers and Sisters: Black Life Matters is partnering with an institution which was designed with the hope of completely eliminating African American people. Some would call this genocide, for this same organization is responsible for over twenty million (20,000,000) African Americans missing by sanctioned murder in America. And to add insult to injury, after brutally killing and dismembering these infants within the womb – in a nod to the bad old days of the Slave Block prior to 1865 – Planned Parenthood was caught in a sting selling these African American body parts for profit as determined by a US Congressional investigation and hearing last year. Black Life Matters now becomes bait for unsuspecting Black women to be lured into Planned Parenthood's killer clinics of Black Life.
Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:32 PM
8
08
32
PM
PDT
EG
If everyone felt that way we wouldn’t have the racial division we see.
That is very kind. If everybody agreed with me, then it would put an end to racial strife. Ok, yes - I think you're right.Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:28 PM
8
08
28
PM
PDT
From Black Genocide
Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America. Are we being targeted? Isn't that genocide? We are the only minority in America that is on the decline in population. If the current trend continues, by 2038 the black vote will be insignificant. Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a devout racist who created the Negro Project designed to sterilize unknowing black women and others she deemed as undesirables of society? The founder of Planned Parenthood said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." Is her vision being fulfilled today?
Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:26 PM
8
08
26
PM
PDT
SA
But to answer your question – yes, it is an absolute duty for an adult to save a child even at the cost of his life.
So, my daughter should have risked her life for an ectopic pregnancy? I guess I and the entire medical community see it differently.Ed George
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:21 PM
8
08
21
PM
PDT
SA
Planned Parenthood has a business strategy to heavily promote abortion in black neighborhoods.
I am glad to see that you fully support Black Lives Matter. If everyone felt that way we wouldn’t have the racial division we see.Ed George
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:18 PM
8
08
18
PM
PDT
EG Well, think about a Sophie's Choice kind of thing. The Nazi says to a parent with a child: "I'm going to kill one of you. Tell me which one." Sounds like a very big risk to the parent's health right there. So, your daughter says - kill the child and save me. You don't see a problem with that. But to answer your question - yes, it is an absolute duty for an adult to save a child even at the cost of his life. That's what men do all the time. That's what women should do.Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:17 PM
8
08
17
PM
PDT
Planned Parenthood has a business strategy to heavily promote abortion in black neighborhoods. Their founder, Margaret Sanger did not believe that black babies mattered at all. http://blackgenocide.org/home.htmlSilver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:12 PM
8
08
12
PM
PDT
SA
The duty of an adult to defend and protect the life of a child in the womb, and under no circumstances to kill it, is an absolute.
Really? My daughter terminated her pregnancy last month because of a risk to her health. Was that absolutely wrong?Ed George
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
EG You cut off this part of KF's response:
…the issues of mercy to a convicted criminal in states with resources to support such are utterly different from those of the mass slaughter under colour of law and claimed rights, of a bit under a million utterly innocent unborn children per week.
Nobody on this site is going to give you a victory for taking cheap shots. Putting it another way, you're clearly aware that you're not offering a discussion or argument.Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:10 PM
8
08
10
PM
PDT
If black lives matter then why is the abortion rate for black women almost 4x higher than that of white women?ET
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:06 PM
8
08
06
PM
PDT
EG The duty of an adult to defend and protect the life of a child in the womb, and under no circumstances to kill it, is an absolute. If you're agreeing on that, that is good to know, indeed.Silver Asiatic
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
Acartia Eddie:
So, you agree that the right to life is not an absolute.
That had nothing to do with the context of the discussion. You must be one desperate and twisted troll.ET
June 12, 2020
June
06
Jun
12
12
2020
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 11

Leave a Reply