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Materialism and Moral Clarity

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Its been fascinating to read the discussion started by Barry Arrington that seems to expose some critical holes in the moral thinking of materialism. The discussion seems to range from justifying the existence of pornography to denigrating religious organizations that proselytize as they offer help and assistance to those in need. And, as Barry pointed out, the discussion is 41 posts in (actually as of now 53 posts), and still no materialist has condemned the views of the poster called Seversky on moral grounds. Perhaps having to decide between helping women in poverty by buying pornography or by funding a religious charity is too morally complex a choice for clarity for a materialist, so I want to offer an alternative.

So, here’s a simple thought experiment for any of the materialists (or philosophical naturalists, or atheists) among our number here at Uncommon Descent. Perhaps this simple thought experiment can bring some clarity to moral questions from a materialist persepctive.

Here goes: You’re in a large city and walk up to a a busy street corner. Heavy traffic is whizzing by in both directions on the street you need to cross. As you prepare to cross, you notice next to you a smallish, frail, elderly woman, carrying some shopping bags, who also needs to cross the street, but is quite obviously nervous and frightened of the attempt. You now have 3 options: 1) you can ignore her completely and just go about your business; 2)you can push her into the traffic; 3) you can assist her to get safely across the street. The moral question is, what is the right thing to do and why is it the right thing to do (that is to say, how can we know that is the right thing to do)?

Comments
Mr DonaldM, Let me first note that it was a forced choice of alternatives that started this moral train wreck of misrepresentaton. While your question is not the same 'heads I win, tails you lose' false dichotomy that Dr Dembski oh so morally first proposed (light heartedly, of course), wouldn't it be better to just ask what people would do? For example, if I offered to carry her bags while helping her across the street, I could acquire additional social stature (from the drivers of the stopped traffic) and then when we are on the other side, I run off with the bags, thus acquiring material benefit as well. Like a lion at a watering hole, I might actually loiter about this heavily travelled intersection, waiting for old ladies to appear. ;)Nakashima
October 5, 2009
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Monastyrski: I can't blame you for not reading the Bible. Actually, yes I can.
The right thing to do would be to do nothing but pray for her soul. Who are we to second-guess God? Perhaps the old lady desired some sinful activity, like watching porn, while she stood there at the curb, and God punished her by directing heavy traffic her way.
Luke 13:1-5 "Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."tragic mishap
October 5, 2009
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I support anyone who helps make their community and the world a more loving, caring place. Irrespective of race, creed, etc. I'd bet everyone who contributes to this blog feels exactly the same way; I'm sorry Barry doesn't make that assumption but would rather think that one of his patient and polite contributors holds repulsive views.ellazimm
October 5, 2009
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My son goes to a Church of England School and prays frequently in school. Things are different over here.ellazimm
October 5, 2009
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I help maintain the church grounds in my local village AND I support charities based on what they do with the money NOT on their ideology.ellazimm
October 5, 2009
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Ellazimm, you write, "And clearly helping the old woman across the street is the right choice. Why? Because it’s that kind of behavior which contributes to the kind of supportive and progressive society I want to live in." So that's your vote. You are very sure you are right, and I agree, but there are many instances of people doing otherwise. "And Ms O’Leary: some people help those less well off because of their faith but not all. I propose we judge a person based on what they do NOT what they say or what they believe." Never doubted it. Am I to assume then that you would give to a religious charity? O'Leary
October 5, 2009
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I am not about to condemn Seversky's views based on your misrepresentation of them. I will condemn your false version of them however. You and Barry need to get off this tirade before you embarrass yourselves; even some of your staunch supports think you got the wrong end of the stick. And clearly helping the old woman across the street is the right choice. Why? Because it's that kind of behavior which contributes to the kind of supportive and progressive society I want to live in. And Ms O'Leary: some people help those less well off because of their faith but not all. I propose we judge a person based on what they do NOT what they say or what they believe.ellazimm
October 5, 2009
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Quaggy at 3, the key question is, WHO will actually do something about a problem? It's not always a choice between a religious and a secular charity but between a religious charity and nobody at all. My obstetrician friend who cashed in her possibly lucrative and well-respected career in Canada to go teach midwives in Africa - using modern techniques - would not likely have done that if she were not a devout Christian, who wanted to serve her Lord by saving mothers and babies, via teaching midwives scientific medicine. (No doubt Eric Pianka would be scandalized because he hopes the human population will shrink, not grow. But there you are.) I am not saying that materialist atheists wouldn't do that in principle, but that very often you find that a traditionally religious person or charity is in fact doing it now. So you either give to them or you don't help. It's not a supermarket. And in the case of helping destitute girls lured into the sex trade, waiting for some secular group to come along could mean waiting too long. I give money to anyone I think will really help. proselytization [sic]? Oh come on! Anyone who has been through an education in the tax-funded school system knows perfectly well how much proselytization [sic] goes on there, on behalf of a materialist mindset. I experienced some of it myself forty years ago, and the pace has swiftened since. Just as nuns teach the Christian faith to the orphans they raise, the tax-funded school system teaches the materialist faith to troubled youth in high school. It would be interesting to see which lasts out the millennium, not that I'll be around for it.O'Leary
October 5, 2009
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Quaggy, Leave that question for Barry's thread. Do you have any response to what I've proposed in this discussion. I want to stay on topic here.DonaldM
October 5, 2009
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DonaldM, Since Barry has yet to respond, but since you seem to support him, could you please explain why this comment:
“As for charitable donations, I cannot speak for Richard Dawkins but I know I would prefer to give to those that do not include proselytization [sic] as part of their program.”
is equivalent to wanting women to be held in sexual slavery?quaggy
October 5, 2009
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The right thing to do would be to do nothing but pray for her soul. Who are we to second-guess God? Perhaps the old lady desired some sinful activity, like watching porn, while she stood there at the curb, and God punished her by directing heavy traffic her way.Monastyrski
October 5, 2009
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if you push her into the traffic, just think of all the healthcare costs we could be saving! and it would help save social security for the children!!! /sarctsmith
October 5, 2009
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