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Controversy swirls around last common ancestor of placental mammals

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Is the molecular clock right (88-117 mya) or are the bones right (65 mya)?

File:Southern short-tailed shrew.jpg
American short-tailed shrew

Further to “New biogeography book argues for chance survivals, not continental drift …,” a new clocks versus rocks study has got the fur flying, says The Scientist:

Genetic studies that compare the DNA of living placentals suggest that our last common ancestor lived between 88 million and 117 million years ago, when the dinosaurs still ruled.

The last common ancestor is said to be a shrew-like creature.

But last year, a team of scientists led by Maureen O’Leary from Stony Brook University challenged this timeline. Through an extraordinarily detailed analysis of the bones of 86 mammals, both living and extinct, O’Leary and her colleagues concluded that placentals arose shortly after the point when the non-bird dinosaurs went extinct—the so-called K/T boundary.

Abut 65 million years ago.

Now, a trio of British researchers have hit back at O’Leary’s study, accusing it of “serious shortcomings.” In a strongly worded paper published today (January 14) in Biology Letters, the authors write that the team has reignited a controversy that “has otherwise been settled.”

Move right along, folks, nothing to see here:

“There’s nothing really wrong with either set of analyses,” Bininda-Emonds continued. “Both are robust. The real problem is that the methods are fundamentally different and make fundamentally different assumptions, so that there’s little point in comparing the apples with the oranges.”

Unless, of course, time periods matter.

Note: Maureen O’Leary. No known relation of UD news writer Denyse O’Leary

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Comments
It's surprising that the fossil record and molecular clock would contradict at all, seeing as the molecular clock is based off of the fossil record: "But before any clock can work, it has to be calibrated, he added. Setting a molecular clock “begins with a known, like the fossil record,” for a specific species. Then, once the rate of mutation is determined, calculating the time of divergence of that species becomes relatively easy." http://phys.org/_news146418967.html The fact that the molecular clock has to be calibrated after a new fossil find just shows how useless it is. And even if it doesn't contradict the fossil record, it literally means nothing because it's essentially using the fossil record to support the fossil record: circular reasoning at its finest. If they so clearly contradict each other, how about questioning the one assumption that the methods have in common? (Common descent)sixthbook
January 15, 2014
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podcast - "David Berlinski on Cladistics and Darwin’s Doubt, pt. 1" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-01-15T17_19_45-08_00bornagain77
January 15, 2014
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Lincoln Phipps, as an atheistic materialist yourself, don't you have quite a bit more on your plate that is left unresolved than the 'dreaded' creationists do? Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables - Scott Aaronson (MIT - quantum computation) Excerpt: "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!" http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.htmlbornagain77
January 15, 2014
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Irrespective of what the biologist debate is about the Cretaceous–Paleogene (K–Pg) boundary age is in the order of 66 million years ago. See, Husson, D., Galbrun, B., Laskar, J., Hinnov, L. A., Thibault, N., Gardin, S., & Locklair, R. E. (2011). Astronomical calibration of the Maastrichtian (late Cretaceous). Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 305(3), 328-340. The placental debate is if there was a Palaeogene origin of placental mammals or if it was before that. ID/creationist journals will never answer that one as they can't even decide if the world is 6,000 years or 4.5 billion years !Lincoln Phipps
January 15, 2014
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So nobody is wrong but there is a disagreement about a conclusion. I say both are wrong. Placentals include marsupials. This old divisions in biology are false. tHere are just kinds. nO mammals. reptiles, dinos etc etc. they just have like features for like needs. iTs not a roadmap to their common descent. Its all just presumed . stop looking at fossils and genetics for conclusions on biology. its flawed reasoning if i may say so evolutiondom.Robert Byers
January 15, 2014
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News, agreed bad analogy, perhaps a better one is this: Pointless Counter Pointless - Big Bird vs. Oscar the Grouch - video http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429351/september-26-2013/pointless-counter-pointless---big-bird-vs--oscar-the-grouchbornagain77
January 15, 2014
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Some of us didn't get the impression that the bad feeling among the combatants reported on at The Scientist is faked. Something's at stake.News
January 15, 2014
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And since the most fundamental assumption of all, reductive materialism, is now known to be wrong, doesn't that make this esoteric cat fight in Darwinism seem a bit like watching pro-wrestling? Pro wrestling is FAKE!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcwjVz1SGU0 Note: Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRM&feature=c4-overview&list=UU5qDet6sa6rODi7t6wfpg8g Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939bornagain77
January 15, 2014
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