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Darwinian biologist Jerry Coyne takes on skeptical mathematician David Berlinski

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Jerry Coyne, 2013/zooterkin, CC

From Darwinian biologist Jerry Coyne at Why Evolution is true, on mathematician and Darwin skeptic David Berlinski.

I’m not sure how David Berlinski manages to make a living, but he does live in Paris, which ain’t cheap. Although he’s a Senior Fellow with the ID Creationist Discovery Institute, that can’t pay much, and his science books, including A Tour of the Calculus (1995), The Advent of the Algorithm (2000), Newton’s Gift (2000), and Infinite Ascent: A Short History of Mathematics (2005), can’t bring in that much dosh. (As Wikipedia notes, “Berlinski’s books have received mixed reviews.”) However, his 2009 book The Devil’s Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions remains at #41 on Amazon, a remarkable spot, but explained of course by those believers hungry to find problems with atheism. And he’s also written fiction, including several detective novels, so perhaps that’s what keeps him in croissants and fancy suits.

Sigh.

Jerry, genuine talent and original thinking are surprisingly wealth-friendly, even among people who don’t particularly seek wealth. Of course, ironclad tenure and narrow dogmatism do work better in a context where no one can just walk away or refuse to read something…

David Berlinski

But I (O’Leary for News) am not here to explain to Jerry Coyne how the world really works. He goes on:

The evolution bit begins at 9:40, and here Berlinski says these things:

– Darwin’s view that species can change into other species is analogous to alchemy: a form of transformation for which there’s no evidence. He uses the stretching of the giraffe’s neck, a Lamarckian principle, as one that still characterizes Darwinism. That’s just wrong.

– Darwinism is a “secular doctrine comparable to the Book of Genesis” and an “ideology”. Darwinism, he says, “is not a scientific theory but a collection of anecdotes.”

What ignorant statements to make! Anecdotes? Has he read my book?

Apparently, anyone who has not read Coyne’s book (we think he means Why Evolution Is True, 2010) is a truly ignorant hillbilly. Coyne’s book is currently ranked at #15,907 (as opposed to Berlinski’s #41, cited by Coyne), which suggests that there may be a great many of us out there.

Oh dear.

As a secular Jew, his schtick is to kvetch and kvetch, which, combined with his Buckley-ian imperious attitudes and mannerisms, are taken by ignoramuses as “wisdom.”More.

Dr. Coyne may wish to contact Michael Ruse, a Darwinian philosopher who is quite sure that Darwinism is a religion, one he himself espouses.

Most of Darwinism’s current credibility problems do not arise from mathematical philosophers like Berlinski pointing out its flaws but from growing conflict with the data around evolution.

If Berlinski replies, we’ll bring you the news, with free virtual popcorn. Meanwhile…

See also: Michael Ruse: Christianity and Darwinism as rival religions. Ruse has always been honest about the fact that, for is serious adherents, Darwinism is a religion.

and

Fossil dragonfly named in Mike Behe’s honor has implications for ID. What chance Darwinists will get up a petition to force a name change, and maybe “unlearn” everything Bechly discovered about the fossil? Maybe a person they prefer could discover it all over again, once again erasing Bechly (and Behe). After all, Wikipedia erased Bechly, despite his stellar record, apparently over his support for design in nature.

Berlinski:

Coyne:

Comments
Allan- You don't have any substance. You don't have anything but to lie and deny. Pathetic. And yes Barry has banned several of your socks for being insipid trolls, cowards and liars. You aren't any different. Strange how you never said what the viable alternative is nor how it is viable. Your cowardice runs deepET
May 1, 2018
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ET,
That is a lie.
Accusations yet no substance. This is getting tiresome. You are starting to sound like that moron Joe G. That can’t be, because Barry wisely banned that offensive idiot. Eat a Snickers.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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Coyne is just stupid. Not because he is an atheist. One can be a smart atheist. But he is not. All he ever managed to produce are ad hominem attacks against everyone, friend or foe. I've read him insulting Pigliucci, Sheldrake, Kastrup, even P.Z. Myers for trying to expose Shermer as a the sexual molester he appears to be. I think he's actually damaging his own faction every time he talks.xenos
May 1, 2018
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Allan:
Unfortunately for ID, a viable alternative exists.
That is a lieET
May 1, 2018
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Tribune7, I have never thought that the ID methodology was flawed. I just disagree with the strengths of the conclusions drawn from them.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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vmahuna, well said.tribune7
May 1, 2018
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Allan @26 Apologizes for any misconstruing of your position. What you wrote is not unreasonable. I disagree about the inference to design in biology being weak given the methodology being used but that's OK. Actually, given the methodology the inference is indisputable. The point of attack for me would be that the methodology is somehow flawed or an observation about the aspect of biology being subject to that methodology which rebuts what is now claimed.tribune7
May 1, 2018
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ET,
Not given the evidence and the alternatives. The design inference in biology is as strong as that in archaeology and forensics.
We agree to disagree.
So if someone genetically engineered a bacterial flagellum ID would be stronger? Really?
Ask me again when it happens.
If scientists create life in the lab ID is proven?
No. It proves that it is possible. It does not prove that this is how life originated.
ID is made stronger by the mere fact there aren’t any viable alternatives to account for what we observe.
Unfortunately for ID, a viable alternative exists.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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Allan:
All I have said is that the inference to design in biology is a weak one.
Not given the evidence and the alternatives. The design inference in biology is as strong as that in archaeology and forensics.
And that it could be made stronger by extending ID research into developing and testing hypotheses about possible mechanisms used to realize the design.
So if someone genetically engineered a bacterial flagellum ID would be stronger? Really? If scientists create life in the lab ID is proven? ID is made stronger by the mere fact there aren't any viable alternatives to account for what we observeET
May 1, 2018
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Tribune_7 @ 6 All religions consist of varying emphasis on doctrine, ceremony, and personal religious experience. Roman religion, for example, consisted almost entirely of Ceremony, with some generalized doctrines, and acceptance of rare visions from the gods. But in general, if you participated in the public ceremonies, even if only for the free food, you were a member in good standing. There was no distinction between civil ceremonies and religious ceremonies: all public ceremonies were religious events. It's worth noting that any number of Roman Catholic ceremonies are copies of Roman ones. And of course as soon as the Roman civil title of "pontifex maximus" fell vacant, the Catholics grabbed it and conferred it on the Pope. Confucianism is almost entirely about doctrine, which is unchangeable. (Confucius being dead and all.) In various centuries different Confucian ideas might be more popular than others, but Confucians must accept the entire body of writing. Darwinism would also appear to be all about Doctrine. If you're an Atheist, it's kinda hard to let on you've had a Personal Religious Experience. And I can't imagine what a Darwinian ceremony would look like. I mean they don't have a parade where they carry the Great Man's bones around, do they? So like a hole in the dike, if a Darwinist allows ANY chipping away at Doctrine, the rest of the religion collapses rather quickly.vmahuna
May 1, 2018
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Tribune7, I have never said that ID is not science. All I have said is that the inference to design in biology is a weak one. And that it could be made stronger by extending ID research into developing and testing hypotheses about possible mechanisms used to realize the design.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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Allan --I am not saying that it must be restricted. But that it must be used with extreme caution.-- We are not talking about a mandate to believe. We are talking about a starting point and an interesting observation. This starting point, however, is following scientific principles i.e. an observation (DNA, proteins etc. have characteristics akin to items of known complex design); a hypothesization (they are designed); and experimentation (items of complex design can't be reduced let's reduce bacteria and see what happens). Agreed that these points can be challenged but ID is science.tribune7
May 1, 2018
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Allan:
Detecting design in a human made artifact, in most cases, is relatively easy because we have knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of humans, and tools available to humans.
daft- we know their capabilities due to what they left behind
Without having a reasonable idea of the mechanisms available to the designer, his capabilities and limitations, inferring design in biology is a weak inference at best.
What an ignorant ting to say. Clearly you do not understand how science operates. Design is determined first. We don't even ask about the who or how until after design has already been determined. And we determine the presence of design via our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. That said your position is weak to non-existent. You don't even have a methodology to test your claims.ET
May 1, 2018
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Tribune7,
If a technique can reveal design why should it be restricted?
I am not saying that it must be restricted. But that it must be used with extreme caution. Detecting design in a human made artifact, in most cases, is relatively easy because we have knowledge of the capabilities and limitations of humans, and tools available to humans. Without having a reasonable idea of the mechanisms available to the designer, his capabilities and limitations, inferring design in biology is a weak inference at best. However, it can certainly be used to bolster other evidence.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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Allan
My only point is that you haven’t developed a “reliable” technique for revealing design in biology. At best, you have a reliable technique for revealing human design.
Are you making the claim that humans are responsible for biological design? Your restriction that you are trying to impose is arbitrary. Human design is design. The existence of human design allows us to form a standard of design detection.bill cole
May 1, 2018
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--My only point is that you haven’t developed a “reliable” technique for revealing design in biology.-- If a technique can reveal design why should it be restricted? Remember, this is not a demand that you accept a particular technique or refrain from skepticism.tribune7
May 1, 2018
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Allan:
My only point is that you haven’t developed a “reliable” technique for revealing design in biology.
Yes we have. Your willful ignorance is duly noted. On the other hand your position lacks the methodology to test its claims, Allan. Now run away again, come back and spew your ignorance another day.ET
May 1, 2018
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Tribune7,
If you develop a reliable technique for revealing design why is unscientific to apply it to whatever?
First, I apologize for my snarky comment. You didn't deserve it. My only point is that you haven't developed a "reliable" technique for revealing design in biology. At best, you have a reliable technique for revealing human design.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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Whatever the scientific or philosophical merits of their arguments (rest assured I have my own opinion) Berlinski is simply orders of magnitude more amusing. That alone would suffice for me to give him the nod in any debate.ScuzzaMan
May 1, 2018
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Allen --However, the claim that you can identify design in biological organisms is based on faith-- If you develop a reliable technique for revealing design why is unscientific to apply it to whatever?tribune7
May 1, 2018
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Allen --Finally, someone willing to admit that ID is based on religion.-- Well, I could be snarky and say that you are then conceding that evolution is a religion as well but I'll simply note that the the investigation of the consistencies of design is a scientific pursuit.tribune7
May 1, 2018
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ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92):
1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.
There you have it- to falsify Intelligent Design all one has to do is demonstrate that natural selection can produce irreducibly complex biological systems. "Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” Dr Behe in "Darwin's Black Box" That is the positive case. Allan, your turn. Tell us the methodology to test the claims of evolutionism and provide some testable hypotheses so we can compare.ET
May 1, 2018
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The architecture and subunit composition of ATP synthase If you take a look at ATP synthase you can see it consists of two major subunits (F0 & F1) that are connected together by an external tether. This tether doesn't have anything to do with the functionality of either subunit but without it no ATP synthase. The problem for evolution by blind and mindless processes is exacerbated. Not only does it need to produce the two subunits but one has to be embedded in some membrane so that a gradient can be formed. And the other has to to be stably tethered to the membrane the proper distance away. The tether looks like the membrane subunit F0 somehow formed an external docking site the proper length with F1 forming an external mating site. Again these two different protein subunits, the tether and mate, have nothing to do with the function of the protein complexes they are attached to and tether together. And without them there is no way to get the two working subunits together to produce ATP. There you have it- A simple external tether that stably holds the major F1 subunit/ rotary motor the proper distance away from its F0 motor force is evidence for the Intelligent Design of ATP synthase. The two major subunits and how it works is just icing on the cake.ET
May 1, 2018
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Allan:
However, the claim that you can identify design in biological organisms is based on faith as, to date, nobody has been able to do so
It's been done. For example ATP synthase has all of the hallmarks of intelligent design and no one has a clue as to how evolution by means of blind and mindless processes could have produced it. There isn't any methodology to test the claim.
Nobody has proposed testable hypotheses by which this can be confirmed.
That's been done, also. Your ignorance is not an argument
Nobody has proposed any mechanisms by which the designer can realize his designs.
That isn't required but some have proposed possible mechanismsET
May 1, 2018
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LM,
So, are you saying that sophisticated machinery originating strictly from the minds and hands of engineers and technicians is inconsistent with observation, and is thus religious?
No. The identification of human design is obviously not based on faith. However, the claim that you can identify design in biological organisms is based on faith as, to date, nobody has been able to do so. Nobody has proposed testable hypotheses by which this can be confirmed. Nobody has proposed any mechanisms by which the designer can realize his designs.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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Mung, Ask Richard Saunders, aka Kantian Naturalist, to link to the scientific theory of evolution that makes that claim so we can all confirm it.ET
May 1, 2018
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AK @ 7: So, are you saying that sophisticated machinery originating strictly from the minds and hands of engineers and technicians is inconsistent with observation, and is thus religious?LocalMinimum
May 1, 2018
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Evolutionary theory itself entails that the only measurements that could confirm or disconfirm it are measurements made on populations of organisms. - Kantian NaturalistMung
May 1, 2018
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Allan Keith is lying as tribune7 never said nor implied that ID was based on religion. ID is based on science. ID, unlike evolutionism, has the scientific methodology to test its claims.ET
May 1, 2018
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Tribune7,
Religion requires faith which by definition means the causes of the belief upon which the faith is based will not have consistencies.
Finally, someone willing to admit that ID is based on religion.Allan Keith
May 1, 2018
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