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Is the evolution debate becoming “much more civil and thoughtful”?

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From Fred Reed, an “evolution skeptic” at UNZ:

Recently I wrote a column about the theory of Intelligent Design, which holds that that life, both in its origins and its changes over time, are the result of design instead of chance. Several hundred comments and emails arrived, more than I could read. This was not surprising as there seems to be considerable public interest in the question, while a virulent political correctness prevents discussion in most forums. In particular the major media prevent mention of Intelligent Design except in derogatory terms.

Interesting to me at any rate was that the tone of response was much more civil and thoughtful than it was say, a decade ago.

That may partly be because so many conundrums of evolution are now being discussed in the science literature that being a troll bawling up a storm somewhere isn’t a credential anymore. (See links below.)

To judge by my mail, I suspect that many people, thanks to popular television, think of mutations as major changes that just happen, such perhaps as the rhino’s horn appearing all at once . In fact mutations are changes in the nucleotide sequence of DNA that may produce a new protein. The mathematical likelihood of getting multiple mutations that just happen to engender a complex result is essentially zero. The mathematics is clear but not easily explained to a television audience, no matter how intelligent.

In many years of writing columns, I have learned that the tenacity of attachment to emotionally important ideas is nearly infinite. This is as true of evolutionists as it is of Christians, the politically ardent, or the rabidly patriotic. Things that do not fit the belief are just ignored, forbidden, or explained away by wishful thinking. More.

But eventually, we need a serious discussion.

Hat tip: Ken Francis

See also: Replication failures of Darwinian sexual selection openly discussed at The Scientist. It’s as if evolutionary biologists are beginning to take some of the problems of Darwinism seriously enough to discuss them openly, as failures in research. In this case, the failure of claims for sexual selection (females drive evolution by choosing the fittest mates) is openly publicized. This is neck and neck with the Nature review of The Tangled Tree: A Radical New History of Life, one wonders, are the staff at The Scientist competing with the staff at Nature to be first out of Darwin’s collapsing house of cards?

and

At Nature: New evolution book represents a “radical” new perspective. Including things you didn’t know about Archaea discoverer, Carl Woese. It’s true. Woese, the first to recognize the kingdom of life, the Archaea, was not a Darwinist and thought there is a deity. Prediction: Soon only cranks will be Darwinists.

Comments
“You’re saying … there are no weaknesses in the theory of evolution?” E.S. “(Yes, I am)”
Scott's answer here (which is not well summarized by the paraphrase above) is very good.Amblyrhynchus
August 6, 2018
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Bob
your source for Noble saying that there is no theory of evolutionary biology is not him saying that there is no theory of evolutionary biology ...
He said there is no theory of biology. If you're saying that evolution is not the theory of the origin and development of all life forms on earth (and thus the theory of all biological development) that would be interesting.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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Bob @60
I asked you 3 questions. You haven’t responded about the Genie Scott quote,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeS4hdVm318&t=133s "You're saying ... there are no weaknesses in the theory of evolution?" E.S. "(Yes, I am)" What are your thoughts, Bob? Are there any weaknesses in the theory of evolution? Some options: "There are no weaknesses". "There are some weaknesses". "There might be some or none". "I don't know what 'weakness' means". "I don't know what 'the theory of evolution' means". "I really don't know". "I don't want to tell you". I think that should cover your options, but feel free to come up with another one.
You also ask what other sorts of biology are there than evolutionary biology. Well, there’s all sorts: cell biology, molecular biology, ecology, genetics, biochemistry, physiology, pathology, plant pathology, epidemiology, plant epidemiology, histology, etc etc etc. Of course, they are all related to each other, but are different areas of study and ways of looking at organisms.
Evolutionary theory has nothing to contribute and can be rejected or ignored in the study of all those kinds of biology? Or is rather that evolution the foundation and necessary component in in those fields of study? If the latter, then it's all evolutionary biology as opposed to non-evolutionary biology. If the former, then evolution has really nothing to contribute to biology as a whole, but only its own narrow sphere.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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Ambly:
10 years ago Dembski though this field would collapse and no longer exist.
And there isn't any such field as blind watchmaker evolutionET
August 6, 2018
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SA @ 56 - I asked you 3 questions. You haven't responded about the Genie Scott quote, your source for Noble saying that there is no theory of evolutionary biology is not him saying that there is no theory of evolutionary biology, and you don't explain how models of evolutionary biology can be built without a theory (FWIW, your claims that "no theory that predicts what fitness will be for any organism" is wrong: Fisher pointed out that Euler provided the equation for how life history traits affect fitness, and since then there have been many other models, e.g. in the evolution of behaviour). You also ask what other sorts of biology are there than evolutionary biology. Well, there's all sorts: cell biology, molecular biology, ecology, genetics, biochemistry, physiology, pathology, plant pathology, epidemiology, plant epidemiology, histology, etc etc etc. Of course, they are all related to each other, but are different areas of study and ways of looking at organisms.Bob O'H
August 6, 2018
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Ok. Evolution is a “field of study”. Yes, a lot of people get paid to tell stories about it. Students at universities are a captive audience that have to pay to hear those stories also. So, that whole thing will live on in the future. It’s all safely protected by law also
10 years ago Dembski though this field would collapse and no longer exist. It didn't. In fact, now yoy think it's live into the future. So prehaps thinks aren't better for ID ten years later? (I'm not sure if you remember, but that was your claim to start with).Amblyrhynchus
August 6, 2018
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Re: #46, "The dissenters are not part of the evolutionary biology community." I'm not sure that we would expect any different. Or that it matters in any meaningful way. Maybe we would expect very few dissenters from within the community, but perhaps a few. And the major dissenters would be 'kicked out' of the community as 'No True Scotsmen', and the few others who did dissent publicly in a more minor way would couch it in a framework that wouldn't rock the boat, picking at the margins or always subtly retreating to the mainstream for the sake of financial self-preservation, etc...cmow
August 6, 2018
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Link above should be Denis Noble's page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_NobleSilver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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Bob
If Denis Noble said that there is no evolutionary theory (again, do you have a source for this?), then he is wrong. ow can we build models (e.g. population genetics, phylogenetic, coalescence) without theory?
The models are built on the assumption that there is descent from common ancestors, which at one time meant a tree of life and now means something else. But there's no theory that predicts what fitness will be for any organism, whether new features will evolve or an organism will become extinct. Supposedly, visual similarity in fossils was an indication of ancestry, except that conflicts with DNA comparisons. It is then assumed that sequence similarity is evidence of ancestry but that gives us multiple-supposed species which virtually identical physical characteristics. I'll just offer this clip from the Berkeley evolution site that jdk posted.
All available evidence supports the central conclusions of evolutionary theory, that life on Earth has evolved and that species share common ancestors. Biologists are not arguing about these conclusions. But they are trying to figure out how evolution happens, and that's not an easy job. It involves collecting data, proposing hypotheses, creating models, and evaluating other scientists' work. These are all activities that we can, and should, hold up to our checklist and ask the question: are they doing science? All sciences ask questions about the natural world, propose explanations in terms of natural processes, and evaluate these explanations using evidence from the natural world. Evolutionary biology is no exception. Darwin's basic conception of evolutionary change and diversification (illustrated with a page from his notebook at left) explains many observations in terms of natural processes and is supported by evidence from the natural world. Some of the questions that evolutionary biologists are trying to answer include: 1 Does evolution tend to proceed slowly and steadily or in quick jumps? 2 Why are some clades very diverse and some unusually sparse? 3 How does evolution produce new and complex features? 4 Are there trends in evolution, and if so, what processes generate them?
I note that. It begins by assuring us that all the available evidence supports evolutionary conclusions. And that biologists do not argue those conclusions. Then reading down, some of the big issues include "how does evolution produce new and complex features?" This is a question that biologists are "trying to answer". Ok, there is supposed to be a theory in place that already answered that. But obviously, that's not the case. This site is slightly more honest than others. They do admit that they are still trying to answer the basic question that supposedly Darwin already answered. As for Denis Noble, the evolution-friendly Wikipedia gives us this - I refer you to #10 on the list:
Ten Principles of Systems Biology:[24][25] 1 Biological functionality is multi-level 2 Transmission of information is not one way 3 DNA is not the sole transmitter of inheritance 4 The theory of biological relativity: there is no privileged level of causality 5 Gene ontology will fail without higher-level insight 6 There is no genetic program 7 There are no programs at any other level 8 There are no programs in the brain 9 The self is not an object 10 There are many more to be discovered; a genuine ‘theory of biology’ does not yet exist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_biology
To the retort that he is talking about a "theory of systems biology and not evolution" - I think points 1-9 show otherwise. There is no theory for the origin of these biological systems. Noble does not accept Darwinism. Beyond that, you make the distinction between "evolutionary biology" and some other kind of biology. Is there a biology that is "non-evolutionary"? If so, where can I find it?Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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For example, Futuyma's "evidence" for the efficacy of natural selection is baldly declaring that natural selection is the only process known to create adaptations and then pointing out adaptations. That is the extent of his science of evolution.ET
August 6, 2018
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Hi Jack, I have read Futuyma's 2013 textbook "Evolution". It doesn't help you as far as a scientific theory of evolution goes. I even read "Evolution's Witness: How the Eye Evolved" and it didn't even cover how eyes evolved. It just showed different vision systems from the more simple to the more complex.ET
August 6, 2018
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A good general grad level textbook would be a considerably more thorough place to start, ET.jdk
August 6, 2018
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jdk:
The theory of evolution has been contributed to by thousands of people.
And not one has found evidentiary support for Darwin's claims pertaining to natural selection replacing a designer. No one has found a testable mechanism capable of producing eukaryotes. We can't even test the claim that chimps and humans shared a common ancestor. Kinesiology argues against such a thing. So what have your alleged thousands of people contributed?ET
August 6, 2018
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That was a stupid answer, Jack. But it serves to support my claim that there isn't any scientific theory of evolution. As Giuseppe Sermonti said in "Why is A Fly Not a Horse?": "There never really has been a scientific "theory" of evolution." page 11, just after quoting Jerome Lejeune who called out at the end of a meeting of scientists "There is no theory of evolution!" and no one objected.ET
August 6, 2018
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ET writes, "Who was the author of the scientific theory of evolution, Jack?" That is a stupid question. The theory of evolution has been contributed to by thousands of people. Occasionally someone writes a book (or a website) summarizing the theory, but no one person is the "author".jdk
August 6, 2018
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No, Jack, it doesn't help at all. Wikipedia definitely doesn't post a scientific theory. Who was the author of the scientific theory of evolution, Jack? Tell us some of its predictions born from its posited mechanisms. There can be a general concept of evolution without there being a scientific theory.ET
August 6, 2018
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Here are some places to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution https://www.britannica.com/science/evolution-scientific-theory https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01 (I used this as the main source for the two presentations summarized belowL http://www.kcfs.org/kcfsnews/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/Evo.101.class1.ppt.pdf http://www.kcfs.org/kcfsnews/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/Evo.101.class2.ppt.pdf Hope this helps, ET. :-)jdk
August 6, 2018
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OK Bob O'H- please link to a scientific theory of evolution so we can all read what it says. Or do you mean theory in the general and not scientific sense? Darwin said to falsify his concept we had to prove a negative all the while forgetting he never provided any supporting evidence to support his claims about natural selection. So please just link to the theory so we can all see what it is and what is saysET
August 6, 2018
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SA @ 45 - Eugenie Scott, members of the “Dissent from Darwin” list and Denis Noble are not members of the evolutionary biology community. I don't know the context of Scott's comment, and can't find a primary source for it. Do you have a link? The Dissent from Darwin list in well known: few are biologists (let alone evolutionary biologists). If Denis Noble said that there is no evolutionary theory (again, do you have a source for this?), then he is wrong. ow can we build models (e.g. population genetics, phylogenetic, coalescence) without theory?Bob O'H
August 6, 2018
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Bob
I’m not aware of any crisis of confidence having happened in evolutionary biology ...
Do you agree with Eugenie Scott's famous line: "There are no weaknesses in evolutionary theory"? I'd also direct you to the list of scientists who "Dissent from Darwin" but I think you'll dismiss it. According to Denis Noble, there is no evolutionary theory. He's waiting for one to be established. Dembski talks of "Darwinian processes" working successfully at the molecular level. I think you're saying those are fully supported by the data. Even Larry Moran disagrees with that. I think I've got evidence that there is a crisis of confidence. The mechanism and theory no longer exist. There's no consensus on what evolution does, how it works and what it can predict.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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Bob O'H:
I’m not aware of any crisis of confidence having happened in evolutionary biology, so unless you have any evidence to the contrary, I think the prediction was wrong.
And yet Darwin's ideas remain untestable and natural selection has failed as a designer mimic. No one uses blind watchmaker evolution for anything and it hasn't added anything to our knowledgeET
August 6, 2018
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timotha- Dawkins started it well before your articles by calling people who disagree with evolutionism insane or wicked. Everything else is in RESPONSE to thatET
August 6, 2018
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SA @ 41 - Amblyrhynchus was reponding to your comment @ 27:
At the time of Dover Dembski was talking evolutionary simply not existing in 10 years.
I think he was proven right about that.
The attendance at this year's ESEB suggests he was totally wrong: there hasn't been a "Taliban-style collapse of Darwinism". This, I think, is the comment from Dr. Dembski that Amblyrhynchus was referring to:
In the next five years, molecular Darwinism—the idea that Darwinian processes can produce complex molecular structures at the subcellular level—will be dead. When that happens, evolutionary biology will experience a crisis of confidence because evolutionary biology hinges on the evolution of the right molecules. I therefore foresee a Taliban-style collapse of Darwinism in the next ten years. Intelligent design will of course profit greatly from this.
I'm not aware of any crisis of confidence having happened in evolutionary biology, so unless you have any evidence to the contrary, I think the prediction was wrong.Bob O'H
August 6, 2018
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Amblyrhynchus
Pretty good turn out for a field of study that no longer exists, I would have thought?
Ok. Evolution is a "field of study". Yes, a lot of people get paid to tell stories about it. Students at universities are a captive audience that have to pay to hear those stories also. So, that whole thing will live on in the future. It's all safely protected by law also. But I thought you were talking about evolution, as in a theory. That's what's dead.Silver Asiatic
August 6, 2018
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ET said: "Yes, timothya, your referenced contexts has nothing to do with the topic. There wasn’t any debate" But this is what you said previously: "It is always the evos that start the belligerence, nonsense and lies. Always. And I am more than happy to mix it up with them because bullies only understand one way." I provided a bundle of links to articles where creationists started the argument - that is to say, those articles are examples where the creationists made the first sally and thus bear on this topic's question of whether or not the evolution debate is becoming “much more civil and thoughtful". I leave it to the readers to decide whether any of your nouns "belligerence, nonsense and lies" can be applied to the articles (or to the comments in reply wherever they are permitted) that I referenced.timothya
August 6, 2018
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Amblyrhynchus, by any reasonable measure one may wish to invoke to classify something as a science, Darwinian evolution, (regardless of how many supposed 'scientists' support it), fails to qualify as a science!
Darwin’s Theory vs Falsification – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rzw0JkuKuQ Darwinian Evolution Fails the Five Standard Tests of a Scientific Hypothesis – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7f_fyoPybw
The primary reason why Darwinian evolution lacks any of the rigor that is usually associated with the hard sciences is because Darwinian evolution has no mathematical model to test against. As Dr. Robert Marks states “Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. ,,, there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,”
“There exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. Hard sciences are built on foundations of mathematics or definitive simulations. Examples include electromagnetics, Newtonian mechanics, geophysics, relativity, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, optics, and many areas in biology. Those hoping to establish Darwinian evolution as a hard science with a model have either failed or inadvertently cheated. These models contain guidance mechanisms to land the airplane squarely on the target runway despite stochastic wind gusts. Not only can the guiding assistance be specifically identified in each proposed evolution model, its contribution to the success can be measured, in bits, as active information.,,,”,,, “there exists no model successfully describing undirected Darwinian evolution. According to our current understanding, there never will be.,,,” – Robert J. Marks II – Top Ten Questions and Objections to ‘Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics’ – June 12, 2017 https://evolutionnews.org/2017/06/top-ten-questions-and-objections-to-introduction-to-evolutionary-informatics/
And the primary reason why nobody has ever been able to build a realistic mathematical model for Darwinian evolution to test against is simply because there is no ‘law of evolution’ within the known physical universe for mathematicians and physicists to ever build a realistic mathematical model upon:
Laws of science 1 Conservation laws 1.1 Conservation and symmetry 1.2 Continuity and transfer 2 Laws of classical mechanics 2.1 Principle of least action 3 Laws of gravitation and relativity 3.1 Modern laws 3.2 Classical laws 4 Thermodynamics 5 Electromagnetism 6 Photonics 7 Laws of quantum mechanics 8 Radiation laws 9 Laws of chemistry 10 Geophysical laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_science
As Ernst Mayr himself conceded, “In biology, as several other people have shown, and I totally agree with them, there are no natural laws in biology corresponding to the natural laws of the physical sciences.”
The Evolution of Ernst: Interview with Ernst Mayr – 2004 (page 2 of 14) Excerpt: biology (Darwinian Evolution) differs from the physical sciences in that in the physical sciences, all theories, I don’t know exceptions so I think it’s probably a safe statement, all theories are based somehow or other on natural laws. In biology, as several other people have shown, and I totally agree with them, there are no natural laws in biology corresponding to the natural laws of the physical sciences. ,,, And so that’s what I do in this book. I show that the theoretical basis, you might call it, or I prefer to call it the philosophy of biology, has a totally different basis than the theories of physics. https://www.scientificamerican.com/media/pdf/0004D8E1-178C-10EB-978C83414B7F012C.pdf
In the following article, Roger Highfield makes much the same observation as Ernst Mayr and states, ,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—’laws’—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology.
WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? Evolution is True – Roger Highfield – January 2014 Excerpt: If evolutionary biologists are really Seekers of the Truth, they need to focus more on finding the mathematical regularities of biology, following in the giant footsteps of Sewall Wright, JBS Haldane, Ronald Fisher and so on. ,,, Whatever the case, those universal truths—’laws’—that physicists and chemists all rely upon appear relatively absent from biology. Little seems to have changed from a decade ago when the late and great John Maynard Smith wrote a chapter on evolutionary game theory for a book on the most powerful equations of science: his contribution did not include a single equation. http://www.edge.org/response-detail/25468
Professor Murray Eden of MIT, in a paper entitled “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory” stated that “the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.”
“It is our contention that if ‘random’ is given a serious and crucial interpretation from a probabilistic point of view, the randomness postulate is highly implausible and that an adequate scientific theory of evolution must await the discovery and elucidation of new natural laws—physical, physico-chemical, and biological.” Murray Eden, “Inadequacies of Neo-Darwinian Evolution as a Scientific Theory,” Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, editors Paul S. Moorhead and Martin M. Kaplan, June 1967, p. 109. https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~christos/evol/compevol_files/Wistar-Eden-1.pdf
And whereas Darwinian evolution has no known law of nature to appeal to so as to establish itself as a proper, testable, science, Intelligent Design does not suffer from such an embarrassing disconnect from physical reality. In other words, Intelligent Design can appeal directly to ‘the laws of conservation of information’ (Dembski, Marks, etc..) in order to establish itself as a proper, testable, and rigorous science. And since Intelligent Design is mathematically based on the ‘law of conservation of information’, that makes Intelligent Design very much testable and potentially falsifiable, and thus makes Intelligent Design, unlike Darwinism, a rigorous science instead of a unfalsifiable pseudoscience.
The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness – David L. Abel Excerpt: “If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise.” If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: “No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone.” https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness
In fact there is currently up to a 5 million dollar prize being offered for the first person that can “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.”
The Origin of Information: How to Solve It - Perry Marshall Where did the information in DNA come from? This is one of the most important and valuable questions in the history of science. Cosmic Fingerprints has issued a challenge to the scientific community: “Show an example of Information that doesn’t come from a mind. All you need is one.” “Information” is defined as digital communication between an encoder and a decoder, using agreed upon symbols. To date, no one has shown an example of a naturally occurring encoding / decoding system, i.e. one that has demonstrably come into existence without a designer. A private equity investment group is offering a technology prize for this discovery (up to 5 million dollars). We will financially reward and publicize the first person who can solve this;,,, To solve this problem is far more than an object of abstract religious or philosophical discussion. It would demonstrate a mechanism for producing coding systems, thus opening up new channels of scientific discovery. Such a find would have sweeping implications for Artificial Intelligence research. http://cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/
bornagain77
August 5, 2018
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Ambly:
I just got back from a conference with more than a thousand evolutionary biologists.
Has any of them figured out a way to test the claims of evolution by means of blind and mindless processes?
Pretty good turn out for a field of study that no longer exists, I would have thought?
Who is studying blind watchmaker evolution? What advances have they given us?ET
August 5, 2018
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Yes, timothya, your referenced contexts has nothing to do with the topic. There wasn't any debate BTW there isn't any scientific theory of evolution so there really isn't anything to denyET
August 5, 2018
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per 18 and 19
Silver Asiatic ,,, I’d say acceptance and attempting to live by, the golden rule, is correlated with intelligence. 19 jdk "Then I am intelligent!"
So tell me jdk, are you a pro-abortion type of 'golden rule' atheist? If so, your words are meaningless.bornagain77
August 5, 2018
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At the time of Dover Dembski was talking evolutionary simply not existing in 10 years.
I think he was proven right about that.
I just got back from a conference with more than a thousand evolutionary biologists. There will probably be more than 2000 at another meeting this month. Pretty good turn out for a field of study that no longer exists, I would have thought?Amblyrhynchus
August 5, 2018
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