Michael Behe muses on design and COVID-19

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March 12, 2020

Evolution, Intelligent Design

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Evolution
Intelligent Design}

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COVID-19 — *A coronavirus, by CDC/ Alissa Eckert, MS; Dan Higgins, MAM / Public domain.*

He stands by what he wrote on Ebola virus six years ago:

The bottom line is that, while of course the virus is dangerous, the situation can be compared to a strong storm on the ocean. The waves may be huge and the surface roiling, but the deeper waters continue as they always have, essentially undisturbed. In a similar way, although superficially it changes very rapidly, some researchers think that the coronavirus and many other virus types have remained basically the same for tens of millions of years…
So, do I think viruses were designed? Yes, I most certainly do! The viruses of which we are aware — including the coronaviruses, Ebola, and HIV — are exquisitely, purposively arranged, which is the clear signature of intelligent design. Well, then does that mean the designer is evil and wants people to suffer? No, not necessarily. I’m a biochemist, not a philosopher. Nonetheless, I see no reason why a designer even of such things as viruses should be classified as bad on that basis alone.
I started this post with an analogy of a storm on the ocean. Certainly, if we were on a ship in a powerful storm, we might be excused for thinking storms are bad. But in calmer moments we understand that on balance the ocean is very good and that, given an ocean and the laws of nature, storms will arise from time to time. What’s more, we just might get caught in one. In the same way, most viruses do not affect humans and may well have a positive, necessary role to play in nature of which we are currently unaware. (I would bet on it.) From time to time a storm arises in the virosphere and affects humans. But that’s no reason to think either that viruses weren’t designed or that the designer of viruses isn’t good.
Michael Behe, “Evolution, Design, and COVID-19” at Evolution News and Science Today

Ebola six years ago? Ebola six years ago? Behe, M. J. 2014. Evolution and the Ebola virus: Pacing a small cage.

Comments

Pray Darwin: - 'Thank you evolution for our imperfect, almost good Immune System that is fighting against the COVID-19 to help us'. For no purpose. Amen.Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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And according to this darwiniannguy Novella: 'we do not perceive reality, it is only our imagination'. Yes, 'reality' is not there. People, do not worry, COVID-19 is not 'real': https://mindmatters.ai/2019/07/tales-of-the-mind-a-neurologist-encounters-the-house-of-mirrors/ BEWARE. DARWINISM IS A DANGEROUS CULT.Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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___ More on this crazy darwinian religion:
Using K-Means and PCA, were able to identify five main clusters of mutations in the coronavirus. *Scientists developing vaccines for the coronavirus can use the cluster centers to gain knowledge about characteristics of each cluster. We were able to visualize the clusters in two dimensions using principal component analysis, and found that the coronavirus has a very high rate of mutation. This may be what makes it so deadly. https://towardsdatascience.com/machine-learning-for-biology-how-will-covid-19-mutate-next-4df93cfaf544
Well, according to this other darwinian priest:
We have no more extrinsic purpose than a squirrel or an armadillo. Jerry Coyne
- Thanks to this old nutty now we know that at least 'we have more purpose than COVID-19'. Or not? Who knows. - All life is 'purposeless' but we humans 'have more purpose than COVID-19 but the same purpose as squirrels'? Goodness gracious. *a. k.a. meat-robots according to the same mentioned priest:
Your decisions result from molecular-based electrical impulses and chemical substances transmitted from one brain cell to another. These molecules must obey the laws of physics, so the outputs of our brain—our "choices"—are dictated by those laws. https://www.chronicle.com/article/Jerry-A-Coyne-You-Dont-Have/131165
No merit then for those 'scientists'. They are 'obeying' laws.Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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Look at this:
Something that many people don’t think much about viruses is that, like every other organism on Earth struggling for survival, they evolve, or mutate.
- We can not say if viruses are 'alive' but they 'struggle for survival'? Oh my. More non-sense. - 'Struggle' indicates goal/ purpose.
In fact, research has shown COVID-19 has mutated repeatedly in ways to boost its survival. https://towardsdatascience.com/machine-learning-for-biology-how-will-covid-19-mutate-next-4df93cfaf544
-No goal and not alive BUT 'boost' and 'survival'. Naturalism has not a leg to stand on. A barrage of contradictions only supported by blind dogma.Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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If there is 'no purpose' in life, how is that we humans have the 'purpose' of ending the coronavirus ASAP? - Wait, maybe we are not 'natural'? - Or it could be that 'naturalists' CAN NOT INTERPRET 'NATURE' and their ideology is a non-sensical mess? Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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… life has no higher purpose than to perpetuate the survival of DNA … Richard Dawkins
-But COVID-19 has no DNA, it is a ssRNA virus. Maybe viruses are not 'part of life'? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5038734002 What are viruses then? Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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@102 Kairosfocus:
I simply noted the implication of how viruses are replicated, by hijacking the machinery of cells.
According to this darwinian priest :
... life has no higher purpose than to perpetuate the survival of DNA …
we conclude then that the COVID-19 is now achieving its 'higher purpose'. But then, this same priest says:
life has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference. Richard Dawkins. So this priest is clueless and, if you care to inspect the darwinian orthodoxy , you understand it makes no sense.
Truthfreedom_{March 17, 2020
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F/N: It is estimated that at each viral replication for COVID-19, perhaps six errors aka mutations occur. I suspect, for want of cross checks and error correction. The result is that the coded info will wander all over an island of function. KFkairosfocus_{March 17, 2020
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MR, a lot has happened. I simply noted the implication of how viruses are replicated, by hijacking the machinery of cells. KFkairosfocus_{March 17, 2020
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@96 Jim Thibodeau So you do not understand QM.Truthfreedom_{March 16, 2020
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And do tell Jim Thibodeau, just how do you expect to help Truthfreedom with your nihilistic/atheistic worldview? Atheism, a worldview that is devoid of any real meaning, beauty or purpose, for life is a severely impoverished, even severely depressing, worldview for anyone to have to hold. Indeed, such an impoverished view of life goes a very long way towards explaining exactly why Christians report being much happier than atheists are,
'Believers are happier than atheists' - Jonathan Petre - 18 Mar 2008 People who believe in God are happier than agnostics or atheists, A report found that religious people were better able to cope with disappointments such as unemployment or divorce than non-believers. Moreover, they become even happier the more they pray and go to church, claims the study by Prof Andrew Clark and Dr Orsolya Lelkes. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1581994/Believers-are-happier-than-atheists.html
and also explains why Christians have significantly fewer suicide attempts than atheists do,
Of snakebites and suicide - February 18, 2014 RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/of-snakebites-and-suicide/
and also explains why Christians report having greater life satisfaction than atheists do,
Associations of Religious Upbringing With Subsequent Health and Well-Being From Adolescence to Young Adulthood: An Outcome-Wide Analysis Ying Chen, Tyler J VanderWeele - Sept. 10, 2018 Excerpt: Compared with no attendance, at least weekly attendance of religious services was associated with greater life satisfaction and positive affect, a number of character strengths, lower probabilities of marijuana use and early sexual initiation, and fewer lifetime sexual partners. Analyses of prayer or meditation yielded similar results. Although decisions about religion are not shaped principally by health, encouraging service attendance and private practices in adolescents who already hold religious beliefs may be meaningful avenues of development and support, possibly leading to better health and well-being. https://academic.oup.com/aje/advance-article/doi/10.1093/aje/kwy142/5094534
and also explains why Christians having less mental and physical health issues than atheists do,
“I maintain that whatever else faith may be, it cannot be a delusion. The advantageous effect of religious belief and spirituality on mental and physical health is one of the best-kept secrets in psychiatry and medicine generally. If the findings of the huge volume of research on this topic had gone in the opposite direction and it had been found that religion damages your mental health, it would have been front-page news in every newspaper in the land.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health - preface “In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with well-being, happiness and life satisfaction; hope and optimism; purpose and meaning in life; higher self-esteem; better adaptation to bereavement; greater social support and less loneliness; lower rates of depression and faster recovery from depression; lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide; less anxiety; less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies; lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse; less delinquency and criminal activity; greater marital stability and satisfaction… We concluded that for the vast majority of people the apparent benefits of devout belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.” - Professor Andrew Sims former President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists - Is Faith Delusion?: Why religion is good for your health – page 100 https://books.google.com/books?id=PREdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
and also explains why Christians live significantly longer than atheists do.
Can attending church really help you live longer? This study says yes - June 1, 2017 Excerpt: Specifically, the study says those middle-aged adults who go to church, synagogues, mosques or other houses of worship reduce their mortality risk by 55%. The Plos One journal published the "Church Attendance, Allostatic Load and Mortality in Middle Aged Adults" study May 16. "For those who did not attend church at all, they were twice as likely to die prematurely than those who did who attended church at some point over the last year," Bruce said. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/02/can-attending-church-really-help-you-live-longer-study-says-yes/364375001/ Study: Religiously affiliated people live “9.45 and 5.64 years longer…” July 1, 2018 Excerpt: Self-reported religious service attendance has been linked with longevity. However, previous work has largely relied on self-report data and volunteer samples. Here, mention of a religious affiliation in obituaries was analyzed as an alternative measure of religiosity. In two samples (N = 505 from Des Moines, IA, and N = 1,096 from 42 U.S. cities), the religiously affiliated lived 9.45 and 5.64 years longer, respectively, than the nonreligiously affiliated. Additionally, social integration and volunteerism partially mediated the religion–longevity relation. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/study-religiously-affiliated-people-lived-religiously-affiliated-lived-9-45-and-5-64-years-longer/ Can Religion Extend Your Life? - By Chuck Dinerstein — June 16, 2018 Excerpt: The researcher's regression analysis suggested that the effect of volunteering and participation accounted for 20% or 1 year of the impact, while religious affiliation accounted for the remaining four years or 80%. https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/06/16/can-religion-extend-your-life-13092
It seems readily apparent that, contrary to what Jim Thibodeau believe, Jim Thibodeau. an atheist, is the one who is seriously in need of help.bornagain77_{March 16, 2020
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@TruthFreedom I’m sorry for whatever has gone wrong in your life that is causing you to act like this, but if I can do anything to help, I will. I don’t have much money free at the moment, given current conditions, but if there’s anything that I can do to help, please email me at my name here with no space at yahoo.com. Maybe you just need a little bit of assistance, and then you can once again be a positive force in the world. I’m willing to help, just let me know.Jim Thibodeau_{March 16, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau and exactly how does special, (or general relativity, or quantum mechanics for that matter), support your atheistic worldview? We now know from special relativity, that time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop for a hypothetical observer travelling at the speed of light. To grasp the whole concept of time coming to a complete stop at the speed of light a little more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light happens to be the very same ‘thought experiment’ that gave Einstein his breakthrough insight into special relativity. Here is a short clip from a video that gives us a look into Einstein’s breakthrough insight.
Einstein: Einstein’s Miracle Year (‘Insight into Eternity’ – Thought Experiment 55 second mark) – video http://www.history.com/topics/albert-einstein/videos/einstein-einsteins-miracle-year
That time, as we understand it, comes to a complete stop at the speed of light, and yet light moves from point A to point B in our universe, and thus light is obviously not ‘frozen within time', has some fairly profound implications.
“The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.” Dr. Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 11
The only way it is possible for time not to pass for light, and yet for light to move from point A to point B in our universe, is if light is of a higher dimensional value of time than the temporal time we are currently living in. Otherwise light would simply be ‘frozen within time’ to our temporal frame of reference. And indeed that is exactly what is found. “Hermann Minkowski- one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space.” and "Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity."
Spacetime Excerpt: In 1908, Hermann Minkowski—once one of the math professors of a young Einstein in Zurich—presented a geometric interpretation of special relativity that fused time and the three spatial dimensions of space into a single four-dimensional continuum now known as Minkowski space. A key feature of this interpretation is the definition of a spacetime interval that combines distance and time. Although measurements of distance and time between events differ for measurements made in different reference frames, the spacetime interval is independent of the inertial frame of reference in which they are recorded. Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of relativity was to prove vital to Einstein’s development of his 1915 general theory of relativity, wherein he showed that spacetime becomes curved in the presence of mass or energy.,,, Einstein, for his part, was initially dismissive of Minkowski’s geometric interpretation of special relativity, regarding it as überflüssige Gelehrsamkeit (superfluous learnedness). However, in order to complete his search for general relativity that started in 1907, the geometric interpretation of relativity proved to be vital, and in 1916, Einstein fully acknowledged his indebtedness to Minkowski, whose interpretation greatly facilitated the transition to general relativity.[10]:151–152 Since there are other types of spacetime, such as the curved spacetime of general relativity, the spacetime of special relativity is today known as Minkowski spacetime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
One way for us to more easily understand this higher dimensional framework for time that light exist in is to visualize what would happen if a hypothetical observer approached the speed of light. In the first few minutes of the following video clip, which was made by two Australian University Physics Professors, we find that the 3-Dimensional world ‘folds and collapses’ into a tunnel shape as a ‘hypothetical’ observer approaches the ‘higher dimension’ of the speed of light. Of particular interest is the 'headlight effect' that can be visualized at the 3:06 minute mark of the video.
Optical Effects of Special Relativity – video https://youtu.be/JQnHTKZBTI4?t=186 Relativistic aberration Relativistic aberration is the relativistic version of aberration of light, including relativistic corrections that become significant for observers who move with velocities close to the speed of light. It is described by Einstein's special theory of relativity.,,, One consequence of this is that a forward observer should normally be expected to intercept a greater proportion of the object's light than a rearward one; this concentration of light in the object's forward direction is referred to as the "searchlight effect" (or headlight effect). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_aberration
What is very interesting is that many of the characteristics found in heavenly Near Death Experience testimonies are exactly what we would expect to see from what we now know to be true about Special Relativity. For instance, many times people who have had a Near Death Experience mention that their perception of time was radically altered. In the following video clip, Mickey Robinson gives his Near Death testimony of what it felt like for him to experience a ‘timeless eternity’.
‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’ In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video (testimony starts at 27:45 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voak1RM-pXo
And here are a few more quotes from people who have experienced Near Death, that speak of how their perception of time was radically altered as they were outside of their material body during their NDEs.
‘Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything – past, present, future – exists simultaneously.’ – Kimberly Clark Sharp – Near Death Experiencer ‘There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.’ – John Star – NDE Experiencer
As well, (exactly as we would a-priorily expect from special relativity), Near Death Experiencers also frequently mention going through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension:
Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? – article with video Excerpt: “Very often as they’re moving through the tunnel, there’s a very bright mystical light … not like a light we’re used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns…” – Jeffrey Long M.D. – has studied NDE’s extensively The Tunnel and the Near-Death Experience Excerpt: One of the nine elements that generally occur during NDEs is the tunnel experience. This involves being drawn into darkness through a tunnel, at an extremely high speed, until reaching a realm of radiant golden-white light.
In the following video, Barbara Springer gives her testimony as to what it felt like for her to go through the tunnel:
“I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.” Barbara Springer – Near Death Experience – The Tunnel – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv2jLeoAcMI
And in the following audio clip, Vicki Noratuk, (who has been blind from birth, besides being able to ‘miraculously” see for the first time during in her life during her Near Death Experience), Vicki also gives testimony of going through a tunnel:
“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact.,, I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!” – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y
And in the following quotes, the two Near Death Experiencers both testify that they firmly believed that they were in a higher heavenly dimension that is above this three-dimensional world, and that the reason that they have a very difficult time explaining what their Near Death Experiences actually felt like is because we simply don’t currently have the words to properly describe that higher dimension:
“Regardless, it is impossible for me to adequately describe what I saw and felt. When I try to recount my experiences now, the description feels very pale. I feel as though I’m trying to describe a three-dimensional experience while living in a two-dimensional world. The appropriate words, descriptions and concepts don’t even exist in our current language. I have subsequently read the accounts of other people’s near-death experiences and their portrayals of heaven and I able to see the same limitations in their descriptions and vocabulary that I see in my own.” Mary C. Neal, MD – To Heaven And Back pg. 71 “Well, when I was taking geometry, they always told me there were only three dimensions, and I always just accepted that. But they were wrong. There are more… And that is why so hard for me to tell you this. I have to describe with words that are three-dimensional. That’s as close as I can get to it, but it’s really not adequate.” John Burke – Imagine Heaven pg. 51 – quoting a Near Death Experiencer
That what we now know to be true from special relativity, (namely that it outlines a ‘timeless’, i.e. eternal, dimension that exists above this temporal dimension), would fit hand and glove with the personal testimonies of people who have had a deep heavenly NDE is, needless to say, powerful evidence that their testimonies are, in fact, true and that they are accurately describing the ‘reality’ of a higher heavenly dimension that exists above this temporal dimension. I would even go so far as to say that such corroboration from ‘non-physicists’, who know nothing about the intricacies of special relativity, is a complete scientific verification of the overall validity of their personal NDE testimonies.
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
Supplemental note: The reality of a soul that is capable of living beyond the death of our material bodies is now strongly supported by advances in quantum biology:
Darwinian Materialism vs. Quantum Biology – Part II – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSig2CsjKbg
Verses:
Mark 8:37 Is anything worth more than your soul? Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Supplemental quote: ‘How You Think About Heaven Affects Everything in Life,’
Texas Pastor John Burke Says Near-Death Experiences Are ‘Amazingly Biblical’ (Video) – Oct 25, 2015 ‘How You Think About Heaven Affects Everything in Life,’ Says Gateway Church Pastor http://www.christianpost.com/news/texas-pastor-john-burke-says-near-death-experiences-are-amazingly-biblical-video-148156/
In conclusion, special relativity is of great comfort to Christian Theists in that it strongly points to a heavenly eternal dimension that exists above this one.bornagain77_{March 16, 2020
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I would say it only took two or three years to be able to visualize how time slows down with speed. But then time slowing down with gravity is a short step away.Jim Thibodeau_{March 16, 2020
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Sucks having no edit button. :-D
@90 Jim Thibodeau What does QM entail? Enlighten the plebes, please
“There is no royal road to geometry.” From where I was academically when I decided to study it, it took me probably seven years to get a real comprehension of it. And I still can’t really visualize an electron. But I’m afraid for you the journey would be longer. On the bright side, it takes considerably less time to get to where special relativity makes a kind of intuitive sense!Jim Thibodeau_{March 16, 2020
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@90 Jim Thibodeau What does QM entail? Enlighten the plebes, please
“There is no royal road to geometry.” From where I was academically when I decided to study it, it took me probably seven years to get a real comprehension of it. And I still can’t really visualize an electron. But I’m afraid for you the journey would be longer. On the bright side, it takes considerably less time to get to where special relativity makes a kind of intuitive sense!
Jim Thibodeau_{March 16, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau and MatSpirit are amazingly, jaw-droppingly stupid. You have to see it to believe it.Truthfreedom_{March 16, 2020
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I guess JT esteems himself to know more than Anton Zeilinger does about quantum mechanics: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-christianity-aided-modern-science/#comment-695226bornagain77_{March 16, 2020
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*Did I 'win'?* :)Truthfreedom_{March 16, 2020
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@90 Jim Thibodeau What does QM entail? Enlighten the plebes, please :) (I added a smile, did I 'won'?) Jim, we all left kindergarten long ago. Try harder :) (look, I won again!) Maybe next time you will offer an actual argument (I am not holding my breath). Meanwhile, take a look, materialism is irrational: https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/Truthfreedom_{March 16, 2020
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@88 Jim Thibodeau
The reason is there is so much woo nonsense out there that the average person just has no idea what quantum mechanics entails. ????
Meaning: you do not have a clue and you do not understand QM. It is pretty obvious, your posts say it all. Nor do you understand philosophy. Oh, but you posted a smiley :) That means you won! Look, I won 3 times! :) :) :)Truthfreedom_{March 16, 2020
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@Seversky My general rule is that I will only talk about quantum mechanics with people who have actually calculated Eigenvalues in multidimensional vector spaces, changed quantum numbers from n, l, ml, ms, etc. The reason is there is so much woo nonsense out there that the average person just has no idea what quantum mechanics entails. :-)Jim Thibodeau_{March 16, 2020
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@ Seversky Is COVID-19 'a figment of our imagination'? According to coyne and novella, it is. Wow. An imaginary pandemic. Darwinism is nuts.Truthfreedom_{March 16, 2020
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seversky so, you decided to BELIEVE that one day scientists will figure out where the MOST ABUNDANT organism on Earth (viruses) comes from, because right now they are clueless, because the common descent idea does not work with viruses. So, Seversky, please explain to me, you are A BELIEVER too... so what exactly is the difference between you and me ? (except the fact that you believe in miracles)martin_r_{March 15, 2020
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Jim Thibodeau, Motl is hardly the only major theoretical physicist who has a very strong 'belief' in string theory.
String Theory A Controversy in Ten Dimensions Major Actors Supporters Thomas Banks Professor at University of California Santa Cruz studying the foundations of string theory and M-theory. He received his Ph.D. from MIT in 1973. In 1997 he and others formulated explicit mathematical expressions describing the dynamics of M-theory. Peter Goddard British mathematical physicist and one of the earliest physicist to work on string theory. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Cambridge in 1971, and is currently the director of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. He was awarded the Dirac Prize in 1997 in part for his pioneering work in string theory. Michael Green British theoretical physicist at the University of Cambridge. He received his Ph.D. from there in 1970. While lecturing at the University of London in the mid 1980's, he and John Schwarz established the foundations of superstring theory. Brian Greene American theoretical physicist and professor at Columbia Universty. He received his Ph.D. from Oxford University in 1987, and since has become one of the most recognizable proponents of string theory in the popular media. His 1999 book The Elegant Universe and the subsequent NOVA documentary did much to popularize string theory and the controversy surrounding it. David Gross American particle physicist and string theorist at the University of California in Santa Barbara. He received his Ph.D. from the University of California at Berkeley in 1966, and developed heterotic string theory while serving as a professor at Princeton University. At Princeton he also did seminal work in formulating the theory of quantum chromodynamics, for which he was awarded a Nobel Prize in 2004. Steven Gubser American string theorist at Princeton University. He received his Ph.D. from the same institution in 1998. That year, he, Klebanov, and Polyakov published an influential paper detailing the application of the AdS/CFT correspondence towards deriving meaningful results in quantum field theory. Gerardus 't Hooft Danish theoretical physicist at Utrecht University. He made seminal contributions to the study of string theory dualities in the early 1990's, and developed an early version of the holographic principle. Additionally, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1999 for his earlier work on the mathematical foundations of more conventional quantum field theories. Igor Klebanov Russian string theorist and particle physicist at Princeton University studying the relationship between string theory and quantum field theories. In 1998 he, Gubser, and Polyakov published a highly cited paper showing the power of the AdS/CFT correspondence to produce useful results. Juan Maldacena Argentinian string theorist and professor at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. He received his Ph.D. from Princeton University in 1996, and two years later proposed the AdS/CFT correspondence. He was awarded the Dirac Medal in 2008. Emil Martinec American string theorist and particle physicist at the University of Chicago. He received his Ph.D. from Cornell in 1984, and worked with David Gross to develop heterotic string theory in 1985. Luboš Motl Czech string theorist who has recently left academia. HEe runs a blog called The Reference Frame in which he defends string theory against the arguments of its critics. In 2006 he, along with Joseph Polchinski, defended string theory against criticisms levied against it by Lee Smolin in his book The Trouble with Physics. Yoichiro Nambu Japanese-American physicist currently at the University of Chicago. He received his D.Sc. from Tokyo University in 1952, and since then has made seminal contributions to many areas of particle physics. In 1969, he was one of the first to realize that Veneziano's dual resonance model of the strong interaction could be interpreted as a theory of vibrating strings. In 2008 he was awarded the Nobel Prize for his work on the origin of mass in particle physics. Holger Nielsen Danish theoretical physicist who was the first to realize in 1969 that Veneziano's dual resonance model of the strong interaction could be interpreted as a theory of vibrating strings. Joseph Polchinski American string theorist at the University of California in Santa Barbara. He received his Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley in 1980, and in 1995 he introduced D-Branes into string theory, the first to recognize that they were a fundamental component of the theory. He is also a vocal opponent of the criticisms against string theory leveled by Lee Smolin and Peter Woit. He was awarded the Dirac Medal in 2008. Alexander Polyakov Russian theoretical physicist currently at Princeton University. He worked on the foundations of string theory in the early 1980's, and in the 1990's made seminal contributions to the study of dualities in string theory. In 1998 he published a key paper with Gubser and Klebanov on the application of the AdS/CFT correspondence to quantum field theory. Additionaly, was awarded the Dirac Medal in 1986 for his contributions to quantum field theory. Joël Scherk American theoretical physicist who, in 1974 realized, along with John Schwarz, that string theory was capable of describing gravitation. He died unexpectedly in 1980. John Schwarz American string theorist and professor at the California Institute of Technology. He received his Ph.D. from the University of California at Berkeley in 1966. He made key contributions to early string theory with both Joël Scherk and Michael Green. Nathan Seiberg Israeli-American string theorist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. He received his Ph.D. from the Weizmann Institute in Israel in 1982. In 1998 he and Ed Witten detailed the importance of non-commutative geometry to M-theory. Andrew Strominger American string theorist at Harvard University. He received his Ph.D. from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1982, and in 1996 he and Cumrun Vafa used string theory to derive fundamental results about black hole thermodynamics. Leonard Susskind American string theorist and cosmologist at Stanford University. He received his Ph.D. in 1965 from Cornell University, and in 1979 was one of the first to realize that Veneziano's dual resonance model of the strong interaction could be interpreted as a theory of vibrating strings. Later, he developed a version of the holographic principle using the AdS/CFT correspondence, and is a proponent of using the anthropic principle as a resolution to the string theory vacuum probelm. Cumrun Vafa Iranian-American string theorist at Harvard University. He received his Ph.D. from Princeton Universty in 1985. He and Strominger applied string theory to describe black hole thermodynamics in 1996. In 2008 he was awarded the Dirac Medal. Gabriele Veneziano Italian theoretical physicist and string theorist. His 1968 dual resonance model of the strong interaction was the first string theory to be discovered, and thus he is regarded as a founder of the field. Ed Witten American mathematician and theoretical physicist at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. He received his Ph.D. in physics in 1976 from Princeton University. He has made landmark contributions to string theory from the 1980's to the present day, most notably the development of M-theory in 1995. He was awarded the Fields Medal in 1990 for his contributions to mathematics and mathematical physics. http://web.mit.edu/demoscience/StringTheory/actors.html
That is quite an impressive list for Motl to be associated with. Thus that Motl strongly believes in string theory, and yet finds Bohmian mechanics to be absurd, is certainly not a defense of Bohmian mechanics. It merely shows that he is strongly committed to finding a purely mathematical theory of everything. Moreover Jim Thibodeau, since you, an atheist, apparently find string theory to be absurd, exactly what is your mathematical solution to unifying QED and Gravity into a theory of everything if you do not have string theory? You are basically left with nothing without string theory or something akin to it. As a Christian, I have my own theory, that does not rely solely on mathematics to find the 'theory of everything, but instead rightly relies on the Mind of God that 'breathes fire into the equations' that describe our universe so as to find the 'theory of everything:
KEEP IT SIMPLE - Edward Feser - April 2020 Excerpt: Mathematics appears to describe a realm of entities with quasi-divine attributes. The series of natural numbers is infinite. That one and one equal two and two and two equal four could not have been otherwise. Such mathematical truths never begin being true or cease being true; they hold eternally and immutably. The lines, planes, and figures studied by the geometer have a kind of perfection that the objects of our experience lack. Mathematical objects seem immaterial and known by pure reason rather than through the senses. Given the centrality of mathematics to scientific explanation, it seems in some way to be a cause of the natural world and its order. How can the mathematical realm be so apparently godlike? The traditional answer, originating in Neoplatonic philosophy and Augustinian theology, is that our knowledge of the mathematical realm is precisely knowledge, albeit inchoate, of the divine mind. Mathematical truths exhibit infinity, necessity, eternity, immutability, perfection, and immateriality because they are God’s thoughts, and they have such explanatory power in scientific theorizing because they are part of the blueprint implemented by God in creating the world. For some thinkers in this tradition, mathematics thus provides the starting point for an argument for the existence of God qua supreme intellect.,,, https://www.firstthings.com/article/2020/04/keep-it-simple Not only was science born out of Christian presuppositions, but science also finds its ultimate resolution for the quote unquote ‘theory of everything’ in Christ’s Resurrection from the dead. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/how-christianity-aided-modern-science/#comment-695211
bornagain77_{March 15, 2020
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@80 Seversky
...then what we see is no more than a figment of our imagination – or an illusion – exactly as Coyne or Novella and others have pointed out.
Could you please explain how does the above quote make sense? (I wouldn't trust coyne's non-sensical ramblings at all). -What we see is 'a figment of our imagination'?Truthfreedom_{March 15, 2020
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Motl is a major proponent of string theory, and pretty much thinks anybody who doubts it is an idiot.Jim Thibodeau_{March 15, 2020
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Seversky, funny you yourself brought up, as the main body of your post, Bohmian Mechanics to try to 'help me' understand realism in quantum mechanics and yet when I show Bohmian Mechanics is patently absurd, you get huffy because I did not answer a question you asked after your referenced article. Perhaps you should not let your emotions dictate your posts?bornagain77_{March 15, 2020
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Bornagain77@ 81
Seversky, it seems that you need far more help in understanding what realism means in quantum mechanics than I do.
I asked what you understood to be the meaning of "realism" in the context of quantum mechanics and whether you believe that, in the absence of a physical basis for our perceptions of reality, all we are left with is an illusion, as others have argued. You replied with yet another quote, this time from a Czech theoretical physicist, Lubos Motl, offering a somewhat acerbic critique of Bohmian Mechanics which does not answer either of the questions I asked. if you want a different perspective, try the entry on Bohmian Mechanics in the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. If you don't want to answer the questions that is your choice. I will simply point out that neither of us are quantum physicists and that these issues are far beyond the competence of either of us. For you to argue that quantum phenomena point to the existence of the Christian God or souls is as ill-founded as if I were to claim the same phenomena disprove the existence of your God. As far as I'm able to tell the science does not support either claim. Any assertion to the contrary is either misleading or made out of egnorance.Seversky_{March 15, 2020
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Seversky, it seems that you need far more help in understanding what realism means in quantum mechanics than I do. You tried to help me understand what realism means in quantum mechanics by referencing an article on Bohmian Mechanics. Yet Bohmian mechanics has been falsified:
A Critique of Bohmian Mechanics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn2hoU4jaQQ
A particularly straightforward falsification of pilot wave theory, i.e. Bohmian mechanics, is that it simply doesn’t mesh with Quantum Electrodynamics, (i.e. Quantum Mechanics as applied to Special Relativity), which is regarded as one of our most precisely tested theories ever in the history of science.
Bohmian mechanics, a ludicrous caricature of Nature – Lubos Motl – July 15, 2013 Excerpt: There’s no way out here. If you attempt to emulate a quantum field theory (QED) in this Bohmian way, you introduce lots of ludicrous gears and wheels – much like in the case of the luminiferous aether, they are gears and wheels that don’t exist according to pretty much direct observations – and they must be finely adjusted to reproduce what quantum mechanics predicts (sometimes) without any adjustments whatsoever. Every new Bohmian gear or wheel you encounter generally breaks the Lorentz symmetry and makes the (wrong) prediction of a Lorentz violation and you will need to fine-tune infinitely many properties of these gears and wheels to restore the Lorentz invariance and other desirable properties of a physical theory (even a simple and fundamental thing such as the linearity of Schrödinger’s equation is really totally unexplained in Bohmian mechanics and requires infinitely many adjustments to hold – while it may be derived from logical consistency in quantum mechanics). It’s infinitely unlikely that they take the right values “naturally” so the theory is at least infinitely contrived. More likely, there’s no way to adjust the gears and wheels to obtain relativistically invariant predictions at all. I would say that we pretty much directly experimentally observe the fact that the observations obey the Lorentz symmetry; the wave function isn’t an observable wave; and lots of other, totally universal and fundamental facts about the symmetries and the interpretation of the basic objects we use in physics. Bohmian mechanics is really trying to deny all these basic principles – it is trying to deny facts that may be pretty much directly extracted from experiments. It is in conflict with the most universal empirical data about the reality collected in the 20th and 21st century. It wants to rape Nature. A pilot-wave-like theory has to be extracted from a very large class of similar classical theories but infinitely many adjustments have to be made – a very special subclass has to be chosen – for the Bohmian theory to reproduce at least some predictions of quantum mechanics (to produce predictions that are at least approximately local, relativistic, rotationally invariant, unitary, linear etc.). But even if one succeeds and the Bohmian theory does reproduce the quantum predictions, we can’t really say that it has made the correct predictions because it was sometimes infinitely fudged or adjusted to produce the predetermined goal. On the other hand, quantum mechanics in general and specific quantum mechanical theories in particular genuinely do predict certain facts, including some very general facts about Nature. If you search for theories within the rigid quantum mechanical framework, while obeying the general postulates, you may make many correct predictions or conclusions pretty much without any additional assumptions. https://motls.blogspot.com/2013/07/bohmian-mechanics-ludicrous-caricature.html
Of humorous note:
“When Bohm expressed “hope” that violations of QM (Quantum Mechanics) would be found later and hidden variables supported, Bohr responded that the strange sentence is almost isomorphic to “I hope that 2×2=5 will be proven at some point which will have a good effect on our finances.” https://motls.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-term-copenhagen-interpretation-got.html
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