Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

New paper using the Avida “evolution” software shows …

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email
File:Avida 2.6 screenshot.png
screenshot of 2.6

… it doesn’t evolve.

Remember when AVIDA proved Darwin right?

These results provide evidence that low-impact mutations can present a substantial barrier to progressive evolution by natural selection. Understanding mutation is of primary importance, as selection depends on the mutational production of new genotypes. Numerous changes that would be beneficial may nevertheless fail to occur because mutation cannot produce them in the time available.

Further, it is important for biologists to realistically appraise what selection can and cannot do under various circumstances. Selection may neither be necessary nor sufficient to explain numerous genomic or cellular features of complex organisms [2-4].

PDF and poster here:

Nelson CW, Sanford JC (2011) The effects of low-impact mutations in digital organisms. Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 8:9.

Nelson CW (2011) Selection threshold constrains adaptive evolution in computational evolution experiments. Great Lakes Bioinformatics Conference. F1000 Research 2:A13.

We feel this work uses Avida to demonstrate that the selection threshold and resultant genetic entropy, and also irreducible complexity, can be prohibitive to progressive evolution. Some highlights from the Conclusions:

“… there are several ways in which Avida’s default settings produce results which conflict with observations from biological experiments. Precursors necessary for the most complex logic operation in the program, EQU, are frequently produced by random mutation, yet confer very large fitness rewards. Fitness effects of beneficial mutations under Avida’s default settings range from 1.0 to 31.0, values that are extremely rare in the natural world. As a result, fitness increases by an average of 20 million in only 10,000 generations. This is roughly seven orders of magnitude greater than the changes observed in biological evolution experiments.

… most mutations in biological organisms are low-impact [29], and this class of mutations may dominate evolutionary change [1,2]. When Avida is used with more realistic mutational fitness effects, it demonstrates a clear selection threshold. Mutations that influence fitness by approximately 20% or less come to be dominated by random genetic drift. Mutations that affect fitness by 7.5 – 10.0% or less are entirely invisible to selection in this system. These results provide evidence that low-impact mutations can present a substantial barrier to progressive evolution by natural selection. Understanding mutation is of primary importance, as selection depends on the mutational production of new genotypes. Numerous changes that would be beneficial may nevertheless fail to occur because mutation cannot produce them in the time available.

Further, it is important for biologists to realistically appraise what selection can and cannot do under various circumstances. Selection may neither be necessary nor sufficient to explain numerous genomic or cellular features of complex organisms [2-4].

… The accumulation of slightly deleterious mutations may pose an important health risk for numerous species, including humans [74], and warrants further study using computational approaches… we recommend that future experiments with digital organisms employ more biologically relevant mutational fitness effects.”

Comments
,,,and oddly you cannot show a single violation of the principle of Genetic Entropy!
Sigh. There is no "Principle of Genetic Entropy." It's a fiction.Mung
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
01:13 PM
1
01
13
PM
PDT
It’s a very odd book.
Agreed! I didn't much care for the book myself. I've fought against it's use by people here at UD as an argument for ID. Too many unclear analogies. Too many references to "loss of information" without making it clear how we can tell when information is gained or lost. But I do think it unfair to ascribe to it as his thesis the ideas which you and Heinrich tried to do in this thread. If we take his argument and go back 10,000 years and apply your reasoning we should already be extinct. No? You can take certain things he writes, and you can extrapolate or infer from that certain things, but nowhere, so far as I have seen (I'm through Chapter 5 now), does he claim that humans were created perfect about 10,000 years ago. So to claim that's the thesis of the book is without merit. Why didn't you go for 6,000 years ago rather than 10,000? (See Figure 4 on page 65.)Mung
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
01:08 PM
1
01
08
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, it is interesting to note that John C. Avise, in alluding to the over 100,000 different disease causing mutations in humans, was trying to use a theological (God would not have done it that way) argument, as is overwhelmingly common type of argumentation with all neo-Darwinists, against ID. But the entire argument he is trying to make implodes, for in Avise pointing out the overwhelming detrimental mutation rate to humans, the point immediately arises that this is exactly NOT what Darwinism needs to make its case. Darwinism absolutely needs evidence that mutations are not overwhelmingly detrimental!!! But the Elizabeth, it gets far worse, for Sanford made his case when it was thought the detrimental to beneficial mutation rate was something like 1,000,000 to 1 against, but as Dr. Behe has recently pointed out, it turns out that even the precious few mutations we thought could be beneficial are in fact not beneficial!!! The following study surveys four decades of experimental work, and solidly backs up the preceding conclusion that there has never been an observed violation of genetic entropy: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.(that is a net 'fitness gain' within a 'stressed' environment i.e. remove the stress from the environment and the parent strain is always more 'fit') http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00bornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
06:48 AM
6
06
48
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, it is not me, per se, that you are disagreeing with, it is the evidence you are disagreeing with. post 13 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/new-paper-using-the-avida-evolution-software-shows/#comment-382628 To support your position that humans are not in the grip of Gentic Entropy, as is all life on earth, just show that this evidence in 13 is either false or that it is countermanded by other evidence. You 'opinion' matters not one iota, evidence has full authority!!!bornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
Well, bornagain77, obviously I disagree :) But can you tell me: do you think that the human species is on an unstoppable path to genetic meltdown? I don't think so, but if you do, then I'd be happy to discuss the evidence. If you don't, then there's something else on which we can agree :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
04:21 AM
4
04
21
AM
PDT
Well Elizabeth, and I just want to establish that you blatantly ignore evidence.bornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
04:05 AM
4
04
05
AM
PDT
Well, I just wanted to establish, ba77, that you agree that this is what Sanford is saying (or at least that if he isn't he ought to be!) So I take it your position is that all living things are on a downward spiral into genetic meltdown from a once pristine (or near pristine) state?Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
03:36 AM
3
03
36
AM
PDT
Elizabeth; and yet the evidence: The current rate of extinction is from 100 to 10,000 species a year. This is between 100 and 1000 times faster than our best estimate of historical rates. (of note: it is thought that the "impact of man" is accelerating the extinction rate). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/08/990804073106.htm "Perhaps the most obvious challenge is to demonstrate evolution empirically. There are, arguably, some 2 to 10 million species on earth. The fossil record shows that most species survive somewhere between 3 and 5 million years. In that case, we ought to be seeing small but significant numbers of originations (new species) .. every decade." Keith Stewart Thomson, Professor of Biology and Dean of the Graduate School, Yale University (Nov. -Dec. American Scientist, 1997 pg. 516) At one of her many public talks, she [Lynn Margulis] asks the molecular biologists in the audience to name a single unambiguous example of the formation of a new species by the accumulation of mutations. Her challenge goes unmet. Michael Behe - Darwin's Black Box - Page 26 Natural Selection and Evolution's Smoking Gun, - American Scientist - 1997 “A matter of unfinished business for biologists is the identification of evolution's smoking gun,”... “the smoking gun of evolution is speciation, not local adaptation and differentiation of populations.” Keith Stewart Thomson - evolutionary biologist “The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the position of some people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No.” Roger Lewin - Historic Chicago 'Macroevolution' conference of 1980 "The closest science has come to observing and recording actual speciation in animals is the work of Theodosius Dobzhansky in Drosophilia paulistorium fruit flies. But even here, only reproductive isolation, not a new species, appeared." from page 32 "Acquiring Genomes" Lynn Margulis. Selection and Speciation: Why Darwinism Is False - Jonathan Wells: Excerpt: there are observed instances of secondary speciation — which is not what Darwinism needs — but no observed instances of primary speciation, not even in bacteria. British bacteriologist Alan H. Linton looked for confirmed reports of primary speciation and concluded in 2001: “None exists in the literature claiming that one species has been shown to evolve into another.” http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/05/selection_and_speciation_why_d.html Wired Science: One Long Bluff - Refuting a recent finch speciation claim - Jonathan Wells - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: "Does the report in Wired Science mean that “biologists have witnessed that elusive moment when a single species (of Galapagos finch) splits in two?” Absolutely not." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/11/wired_science_one_long_bluff.html “Whatever we may try to do within a given species, we soon reach limits which we cannot break through. A wall exists on every side of each species. That wall is the DNA coding, which permits wide variety within it (within the gene pool, or the genotype of a species)-but no exit through that wall. Darwin's gradualism is bounded by internal constraints, beyond which selection is useless." R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990) A general rule of thumb for the 'Deterioration/Genetic Entropy' of Dollo's Law as it applies to the fossil record is found here: Dollo's law and the death and resurrection of genes ABSTRACT: Dollo's law, the concept that evolution is not substantively reversible, implies that the degradation of genetic information is sufficiently fast that genes or developmental pathways released from selective pressure will rapidly become nonfunctional. Using empirical data to assess the rate of loss of coding information in genes for proteins with varying degrees of tolerance to mutational change, we show that, in fact, there is a significant probability over evolutionary time scales of 0.5-6 million years for successful reactivation of silenced genes or "lost" developmental programs. Conversely, the reactivation of long (>10 million years)-unexpressed genes and dormant developmental pathways is not possible unless function is maintained by other selective constraints; http://www.pnas.org/content/91/25/12283.full.pdf+html Dollo's Law was further verified to the molecular level here: Dollo’s law, the symmetry of time, and the edge of evolution - Michael Behe Excerpt: We predict that future investigations, like ours, will support a molecular version of Dollo's law:,,, Dr. Behe comments on the finding of the study, "The old, organismal, time-asymmetric Dollo’s law supposedly blocked off just the past to Darwinian processes, for arbitrary reasons. A Dollo’s law in the molecular sense of Bridgham et al (2009), however, is time-symmetric. A time-symmetric law will substantially block both the past and the future. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/10/dollos_law_the_symmetry_of_tim.html Evolutionary Adaptations Can Be Reversed, but Rarely - May 2011 Excerpt: They found that a very small percentage of evolutionary adaptations in a drug-resistance gene can be reversed, but only if the adaptations involve fewer than four discrete genetic mutations. (If reverting to a previous function, which is advantageous, is so constrained, what does this say about gaining a completely novel function, which may be advantageous, which requires many more mutations?) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110511162538.htm Some Further Research On Dollo's Law - Wolf-Ekkehard Lonnig - November 2010 http://www.globalsciencebooks.info/JournalsSup/images/Sample/FOB_4(SI1)1-21o.pdfbornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
03:29 AM
3
03
29
AM
PDT
Oh, dear, we do seem to be in a muddle here! ba77, unless I am totally confused (which is perfectly possible) you and I are in agreement, and Mung is in disagreement, with the claim that Sanford is proposing that human beings (and indeed life in general) is on a inevitable downward trajectory towards "genetic entropy" which will end the extinction of all life, including our own - that we were once at (least near-) perfect, mutation-free beings, from which blessed state we have been declining due to unstoppable buildup of Very Slightly Deleterious Mutations (VSDMs). You and Mung, on the other hand, are in agreement, and I am in disagreement, with the thesis that "Darwinism" is a fatally flawed theory. Maybe we need to write to Sanford! Although actually, I think his position is perfectly clear from his book, although, like Mung, I assumed it was a "reductio ad absurdum" argument rather than a dire prediction until I got to about Chapter 4.Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
03:12 AM
3
03
12
AM
PDT
Speaking of evidence, This video is tells it like it is! Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086/bornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
03:04 AM
3
03
04
AM
PDT
It is also very interesting to note that right now on this very thread, that those who are trying to dismiss Genetic Entropy as a overriding principle of biological adaptations are presenting theological arguments against Sanford's YEC views instead of focusing on the scientific evidence and presenting positive evidence that Genetic Entropy has been violated!!! i.e. If neo-Darwinism is so overwhelmingly true why is this???bornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
03:01 AM
3
03
01
AM
PDT
Elizabeth states; 'It’s a very odd book.' ,,,and oddly you cannot show a single violation of the principle of Genetic Entropy! Is Antibiotic Resistance evidence for evolution? - 'The Fitness Test' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995248 Testing the Biological Fitness of Antibiotic Resistant Bacteria - 2008 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/darwin-at-drugstore Thank Goodness the NCSE Is Wrong: Fitness Costs Are Important to Evolutionary Microbiology Excerpt: it (an antibiotic resistant bacterium) reproduces slower than it did before it was changed. This effect is widely recognized, and is called the fitness cost of antibiotic resistance. It is the existence of these costs and other examples of the limits of evolution that call into question the neo-Darwinian story of macroevolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/03/thank_goodness_the_ncse_is_wro.html ,,Speaking of a very odd book, It turns out that Darwin's "Origin of Species" is a theological book, not a science book! Now I find that to be EXTREMELY ODD!!! Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species Excerpt: His analysis, "Charles Darwin's use of theology in the Origin of Species," BJHS 2011, argues that Darwin used theology throughout his 1859 masterwork to argue for the truth of his theory of descent with modification by natural causes. Darwin's theology was not merely negative, entertaining the assumptions of his creationist opponents as hypotheses simply to contradict those assumptions with evidence. Rather, Dilley argues, Darwin employed theology in a positive fashion, as support for his own position. "In the Origin," Dilley writes, "Darwin used a specific theological view of God's relationship to natural laws in order to argue for evolution and against special creation." The Origin supplies abundant evidence of theology in action; as Dilley observes: I have argued that, in the first edition of the Origin, Darwin drew upon at least the following positiva theological claims in his case for descent with modification (and against special creation): 1. Human begins are not justfied in believing that God creates in ways analogous to the intellectual powers of the human mind. 2. A God who is free to create as He wishes would create new biological limbs de novo rather than from a common pattern. 3. A respectable deity would create biological structures in accord with a human conception of the 'simplest mode' to accomplish the functions of these structures. 4. God would only create the minimum structure required for a given part's function. 5. God does not provide false empirical information about the origins of organisms. 6. God impressed the laws of nature on matter. 7. God directly created the first 'primordial' life. 8. God did not perform miracles within organic history subsequent to the creation of the first life. 9. A 'distant' God is not morally culpable for natural pain and suffering. 10. The God of special creation, who allegedly performed miracles in organic history, is not plausible given the presence of natural pain and suffering. Nothing in Dilley's article can be construed as challenging evolutionary theory, or supporting ID; his scholarly concerns lie elsewhere. As a student of the science-theology-philosophy triad, Dilley wants to understand how these areas of human understanding mutually inform each other. In that, his new article succeeds wonderfully, and will become a locus classicus for future analysis of the history and nature of evolutionary theory. The article will also be a category-buster to illuminate current discussions, where evolutionary biologists (such as Jerry Coyne or Richard Dawkins) continue to use theology to make their case for Darwinian evolution. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html On the Vastness of the Universe Excerpt: Darwin’s objection to design inferences were theological. And in addition, Darwin overlooked many theological considerations in order to focus on the one. His one consideration was his assumption about what a god would or wouldn’t do. The considerations he overlooked are too numerous to mention here, but here’s a few:,,, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-vastness-of-the-universe/#comment-362918bornagain77
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
02:51 AM
2
02
51
AM
PDT
From Wikipedia, for what it's worth (there are citations for the quotes): Formerly an atheist since the mid-1980s, Sanford has looked into Theistic Evolution (1985–late 1990s), Old Earth Creation (late 1990s), and Young Earth Creation (2000–present). According to his own words, he did not fully reject Darwinian evolution until the year 2000. An advocate of intelligent design, in 2005 Sanford testified in the Kansas evolution hearings on behalf of intelligent design, during which he denied the principle of common descent and "humbly offered ... that we were created by a special creation, by God." He also stated that he believed the age of the Earth was "Between 5,000 and 100,000" years. An analogy Sanford uses to illustrate alleged evidence of design is that of a car versus a junkyard: "A car is complex, but so is a junkyard. However, a car is complex in a way that is very specific — which is why it works. It requires a host of very intelligent engineers to specify its complexity, so it is a functional whole." Intelligent design proponent William Dembski touts the accomplishments of Sanford as evidence of the scientific status of intelligent design and has endorsed Sanford's book, Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome.ellazimm
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
02:42 AM
2
02
42
AM
PDT
Mung: For thinking I had not read the book :) Nay, for assuming had not read the book and waggling your eyebrows at me for not heeding the warnings about what happens to people who presume to critique books they have not read :) But that's OK :) If I've got his thesis wrong, I'd be interested to hear what it actually is it, but I have actually read it extremely carefully (several times, in fact), and I also located and read quite a number of his references. As I said, I had read elsewhere that he was a Young Earth Creationist (I'm afraid I can't give you a direct citation, as it was in several sources, including, IIRC, an interview with Sanford himself), but I had also put an upper limit on his creation date by actually reading his book. I don't think he would disagree with that upper limit (but you could check with him). I don't have it with me right now, but, yes, I did read the part where he assumes Crow's truncation model (I also read the Crow paper in question). I think you will find that he regards the upper limits as generous. Indeed he regards, Crow, Kimura and (IIRC) Kondrashov as all supporting his thesis of inevitable terminal "genetic entropy". I'm not "putting words in his mouth" apart from the ones I actually copy-typed from the book. I am paraphrasing, and I believe I am paraphrasing correctly. You say:
My reading is that he is saying, if we take the assumptions of the Darwinists, this is where it leads. So their assumptions are false.
Yes, that was my initial reading too, as I began the book. But it doesn't seem to be the correct reading. Read the postlude (from which I took that quotation). He appears to believe that the human genome is in a steady decline from an initial state of perfection (although I'm not sure that he explicitly states that there were no deleterious alleles when humans were first created) to inevitable and painful extinction.
And what gave you the idea to extrapolate the graph into the past? Sanford does not do so. He doesn’t include any sort of timeline other than number of generations. He doesn’t say where he thinks we are on the timeline.
Sanford extropolates into the future, and "number of generations" doesn't allow for very wide confidence intervals (not orders of magnitude anyway, even if we allow for biblical lifespans). So that puts a ne plus ultra on his date for the origin of people. Unfortunately for Sanford, it doesn't explain why faster-breeding species are not already extinct. It's a very odd book.Elizabeth Liddle
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
02:28 AM
2
02
28
AM
PDT
Mung, I think you owe me one
I'm sorry. For what? You claimed:
Sanford’s thesis, as I recall from his book, is that lifeforms were created perfect approximately 10,000 years ago, and we are headed for mutational apocalypse.
You're standing by that? Or are you saying I owe you one for thinking you had not read the book? That's one I'll grant you. But you failed to answer either of my two questions. 1. Where does Sanford claim that humans were created perfect? 2. Where does Sanford claim that humans were created approx. 10,000 years ago?
It took me a while to actually figure out his point at the beginning, because I assumed he was an IDist, and that his point was that if evolution was true, we would be degenerating, and therefore some Intelligent Designer/Repairman must be invoked to explain our obvious rude genomic health.
You mean because he writes:
For the purpose of further discussion and, and for the rest of this book I will be happy to give the theorists their model of life as "pools of genes" and the idea of selection on the level of single nucleotides. (3rd ed. p.55)
But at about Chapter four I think, I realised that that wasn’t his thesis at all – his thesis was that we really were degenerating into extinction, from a previous pristine state, presumably as a result of the Fall.
In spite of what he says about showing why the "Primary Axiom" has to be false? My reading is that he is saying, if we take the assumptions of the Darwinists, this is where it leads. So their assumptions are false.
And actually, I think we can infer Sanford’s timeline from his figures for mutational buildup. Now that I come to think about it, I think that’s how I ballparked his 10,000 years. On page 113 in my copy, he estimates extinction for our species in 300 generations. Allowing 3 generations per century, that gives a max of 10,000 years from pristine state to extinction.
So you're putting words in his mouth and calling it the thesis of his book based on some calculations that you did and an assumption that you made? Are you talking about Fig. 10b labelled "Crow's fitness decline"? You miss the part where he says "assuming Crow's model of truncation selection"? And the part where he says "assuming an additive model"? And on the previous page where he says "none of these assumptions are remotely reasonable"? And what gave you the idea to extrapolate the graph into the past? Sanford does not do so. He doesn't include any sort of timeline other than number of generations. He doesn't say where he thinks we are on the timeline. You've given me no reasaon to think you've accurately identified the thesis of his book.Mung
June 1, 2011
June
06
Jun
1
01
2011
01:21 AM
1
01
21
AM
PDT
Elizabeth, once again you are ignoring the evidence. This is science Elizabeth, this is not stating what you 'feel' is right. If you disagree with the conclusion you have to present evidence not just disagree. Moreover you have to specifically counter the studies I cited with studies of equal or greater weight!!!. For you to fail to grasp this simple point of the scientific method shows me that you either don't know how to properly weigh evidence, or that you are operating under a philosophical bias. There is no other option. You may protest this, but it really matters not to me for my eye is staying on the evidence first and foremost, not your feelings of being upset that i call you of unfair weighing of the evidence!bornagain77
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
07:19 PM
7
07
19
PM
PDT
Just better say, ba77, in case I have inadvertently misled you - we do seem to agree on what Sanford is saying. However, we probably disagree on whether he is correct (I don't think he is!) But it seems to me that is the clear thesis of his book. Mung, I think you owe me one :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
06:58 PM
6
06
58
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, 'we seem to have found something we agree on!' And who says miracles don't happen??? ,, as to time scale, the Mendel's Accountant program developed by John Sanford and Walter Remine, does allow for 'time-scale' variation so as to accurately reflect reality,,, Using Computer Simulation to Understand Mutation Accumulation Dynamics and Genetic Load: Excerpt: We apply a biologically realistic forward-time population genetics program to study human mutation accumulation under a wide-range of circumstances.,, Our numerical simulations consistently show that deleterious mutations accumulate linearly across a large portion of the relevant parameter space. http://bioinformatics.cau.edu.cn/lecture/chinaproof.pdf MENDEL’S ACCOUNTANT: J. SANFORD†, J. BAUMGARDNER‡, W. BREWER§, P. GIBSON¶, AND W. REMINE http://mendelsaccount.sourceforge.net http://www.scpe.org/vols/vol08/no2/SCPE_8_2_02.pdf But for me, regardless of the time-scale issue, I find Genetic Entropy to hold for all biological adaptations that I can find, as well as was clearly elucidated by Dr. Behe in his recent paper; ================ semi OT: Although Genetic Entropy surely spells the end for any delusions of grandeur that neo-Darwinists may have entertained for man, or anything else, evolving into higher and higher lifeforms, such as the delusion of grandeur mentioned at the 6:50 minute mark of this following video,,,: The Anthropic Principle - Fine Tuning Of The Universe - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661/ ,,, the long, slow, irrepressible, slow march of decay is not really that much different from the fact, as clearly illustrated by Barry Arrington in his post, i.e. we all, 100% of us, die someday!!!,, But the blessed hope we have as Christians is the fact that Christ really did, with 100% certainty, defeat death on the cross so as to be propitiation for us that we may escape death and inherit eternal life. If will but humbly accept His healing hand into our life,,, Healing hand of God - Jeremy Camp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-aE7zQTeEg ,,, etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
06:30 PM
6
06
30
PM
PDT
Well, ba77, we seem to have found something we agree on! And actually, I think we can infer Sanford's timeline from his figures for mutational buildup. Now that I come to think about it, I think that's how I ballparked his 10,000 years. On page 113 in my copy, he estimates extinction for our species in 300 generations. Allowing 3 generations per century, that gives a max of 10,000 years from pristine state to extinction.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
05:14 PM
5
05
14
PM
PDT
'that we really were (are) degenerating into extinction,' ,,,though the time scale is off, the principle is correct; ,,the evidence for the detrimental nature of mutations in humans is overwhelming for scientists have already cited over 100,000 mutational disorders. Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design - Pg. 57 By John C. Avise Excerpt: "Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens." I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found: HGMD®: Now celebrating our 100,000 mutation milestone! http://www.biobase-international.com/pages/index.php?id=hgmddatabase I really question their use of the word 'celebrating'. Human Evolution or Human Genetic Entropy? - Dr. John Sanford - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4585582 This following study confirmed the detrimental mutation rate for humans, of 100 to 300 per generation, estimated by John Sanford in his book 'Genetic Entropy' in 2005: Human mutation rate revealed: August 2009 Every time human DNA is passed from one generation to the next it accumulates 100–200 new mutations, according to a DNA-sequencing analysis of the Y chromosome. (Of note: this number is derived after "compensatory mutations") http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090827/full/news.2009.864.html This 'slightly detrimental' mutation rate of 100 to 200 per generation is far greater than even what evolutionists agree is an acceptable mutation rate for an organism: Beyond A 'Speed Limit' On Mutations, Species Risk Extinction Excerpt: Shakhnovich's group found that for most organisms, including viruses and bacteria, an organism's rate of genome mutation must stay below 6 mutations per genome per generation to prevent the accumulation of too many potentially lethal changes in genetic material. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071001172753.htm All life eventually succumbs to the effects of Genetic Entropy over very long periods of time, but humans are especially vulnerable. As This following study reveals: Sanford’s pro-ID thesis supported by PNAS paper, read it and weep, literally - September 2010 Excerpt: Unfortunately, it has become increasingly clear that most of the mutation load is associated with mutations with very small effects distributed at unpredictable locations over the entire genome, rendering the prospects for long-term management of the human gene pool by genetic counseling highly unlikely for all but perhaps a few hundred key loci underlying debilitating monogenic genetic disorders (such as those focused on in the present study). https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/sanfords-pro-id-thesis-supported-by-pnas-paper-read-it-and-weep-literally/ As well, the slow accumulation of 'slightly detrimental mutations' in humans, that is 'slightly detrimental mutations' which are far below the power of natural selection to remove from our genomes, is revealed by this following fact: “When first cousins marry, their children have a reduction of life expectancy of nearly 10 years. Why is this? It is because inbreeding exposes the genetic mistakes within the genome (slightly detrimental recessive mutations) that have not yet had time to “come to the surface”. Inbreeding is like a sneak preview, or foreshadowing, of where we are going to be genetically as a whole as a species in the future. The reduced life expectancy of inbred children reflects the overall aging of the genome that has accumulated thus far, and reveals the hidden reservoir of genetic damage that have been accumulating in our genomes." Sanford; Genetic Entropy; page 147 further note; MUTATIONAL MELTDOWN IN LABORATORY YEAST POPULATIONS http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0014-3820.2001.tb00608.x/abstract Here is a relevant paper on genetic entropy in other species: Muller's Ratchet and compensatory mutation in Caenorhabditis briggsae mitochondrial genome evolution http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2279117/bornagain77
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
04:50 PM
4
04
50
PM
PDT
Mung, I have indeed read Sanford's book, rather thoroughly in fact, although it was about a year ago now. Nonetheless still I have it beside me now, so I can check. I may have misremembered the 10,000 years ago (although I am fairly sure that Sanford self-identifies as a Young Earth Creationist - however I may be recalling that from some source other than the book). However, I will quote from his "Postlude" (page 157 in my copy):
When I was young, I accepted the factthat I was going to die, and that all of the people I loved were going to die. I accepted it, but it robbed me of joy, to say the least! I was taught that there was still one hope: that the world was getting better.... I now believe this was a false hope. I still believe we should diligently apply ourselves to making this a "better world", and to be responsible stewards of the world we have been given. But I see our efforts as a holding action at best. While science can reasonably hope to prolong life, it cannot defeat death. Degeneration is certain. Our bodies, our species, and our world are all dying. It is simply not in our power to stop this very fundamental process. Isn't this obvious when we look around us? So where is the hope? If the human genome is irreversibly degenerating, we must look beyond evolution in order to have a hope for the future.
It took me a while to actually figure out his point at the beginning, because I assumed he was an IDist, and that his point was that if evolution was true, we would be degenerating, and therefore some Intelligent Designer/Repairman must be invoked to explain our obvious rude genomic health. But at about Chapter four I think, I realised that that wasn't his thesis at all - his thesis was that we really were degenerating into extinction, from a previous pristine state, presumably as a result of the Fall.Elizabeth Liddle
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
04:40 PM
4
04
40
PM
PDT
ok, so far I've re-read through Chapter 3. No mention of humans specifically, or even life generally, having been created approx 10,000 years ago, perfect or otherwise. But I did find this:
Part of the Primary Axiom is that all genetic variation must come from random mutations, since no genetic variation by design is allowed. However, now that the era of genetic engineering has begun, this axiomatic assumption clearly is not true (because many living organisms now contain genetic variations design and engineered by man). Perhaps this simple fact can open our minds to the possibility of designed genetic variation which preceded man!
Mung
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
04:17 PM
4
04
17
PM
PDT
I’ve read Sanford’s book, and that’s a reasonable summary (although he mainly discusses humans).
A summary, in order to be reasonable, should at the very least be factual. 1. Where does Sanford claim that humans were created perfect? 2. Where does Sanford claim that humans were created approx. 10,000 years ago? I've been glancing back through the book and I have yet to locate either claim. Perhaps I'll try to quickly read it again if I can find the time.Mung
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
Mung - I've read Sanford's book, and that's a reasonable summary (although he mainly discusses humans).Heinrich
May 31, 2011
May
05
May
31
31
2011
01:12 AM
1
01
12
AM
PDT
Sanford’s thesis, as I recall from his book, is that lifeforms were created perfect approximately 10,000 years ago, and we are headed for mutational apocalypse.
I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that you haven't actually read the book. I have no problem with analysis of asexual populations. If evolution doesn't work there it doesn't work period. But in light of the recent threads here at UD about being a critic of a book one hasn't read, did you take nothing away from them?Mung
May 30, 2011
May
05
May
30
30
2011
02:11 PM
2
02
11
PM
PDT
Not so fast, guys! It is certainly possible to set the parameters in a platform like AVIDA and see evolution fail. However, the authors imply that their parameters are more "realistic". But the genome size of AVIDA organisms is orders of magnitude smaller than living organisms, as is the maximum population size (for most populations); in addition,the fitness landscape is not a function of the evolving population (or wasn't the last time I looked), and the population reproduces asexually. And we know, from population genetics,that whether or not "genetic entropy" is a problem is highly depending on genome size, population size, and whether the population reproduces asexually. As the authors note, it is already well-known that when population size drops, especially in asexually producing species, build-up of deleterious mutations becomes a problem. However, we also know a lot about the mechanisms by which this "meltdown" is avoided in certain species, and we also know that when populations become very small, genetic health becomes a very real problem (which is why extinction is a very real threat even in populations in which there remain many hundreds of breeding pairs). Sanford's thesis, as I recall from his book, is that lifeforms were created perfect approximately 10,000 years ago, and we are headed for mutational apocalypse. This claim is clearly infirmed by a great deal of data, not least being that species that reproduce much faster than others (e.g. mice and people) seem to be in very similar states of genetic health.Elizabeth Liddle
May 29, 2011
May
05
May
29
29
2011
10:56 AM
10
10
56
AM
PDT
What is there here that's new? We know that alleles with a small fitness advantage will mainly be affected by drift. And because of this, mildly deleterious alleles can also be fixed: this is the concept of genetic load. So what's new?Heinrich
May 29, 2011
May
05
May
29
29
2011
07:32 AM
7
07
32
AM
PDT
kairos, I bet this keeps you beaming for a while. LOL :) or at least until MathGrrl shows up with her obtuse indifference to the truth of the matter,, :)bornagain77
May 29, 2011
May
05
May
29
29
2011
04:55 AM
4
04
55
AM
PDT
BA: You got that right! THAT POSTER JUST WENT INTO MY VAULT, WITH ITS OWN LINK AND THE LINK TO THE PAPER. (This is the first time I have seen 30 point text show up onscreen as tiny text! I guess I would need one of those scanning flatbed printers to give full size . . . ) The point that the fitness function plainly has to be tuned and peaky to pass the good stuff on, is telling. Notice the co-author: Sanford of gene gun and genetic entropy fame. Bonus! (Nobel Prize holder, isn't he?) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 29, 2011
May
05
May
29
29
2011
04:25 AM
4
04
25
AM
PDT
Please take a look at this video - Rabbit born with no ears near Fukushima nuclear plant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqVY9azhH3U This demonstrates that mutations are always deleterious. I bet we will never see a rabbit with wings near Fukushima - mutations never add information. I would like someone at UD write about this case. Thanks!rprado
May 28, 2011
May
05
May
28
28
2011
07:05 PM
7
07
05
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply