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No evidence that there is enough time for evolution

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No evidence that there is enough time for evolution[*]

Lee M Spetner

Redoxia Israel, Ltd. 27 Hakablan St., Jerusalem, Israel

Abstract: A recent attempt was made to resolve the heretofore unaddressed issue of the estimated time for evolution, concluding that there was plenty of time. This would have been a very significant result had it been correct. It turns out, however, that the assumptions made in formulating the model of evolution were faulty and the conclusion of that attempt is therefore unsubstantiated.

[This post will remain at the top of the page until 00 hours Tuesday May 31. For reader convenience, other coverage continues below. – UD News]

 

The standard neo-Darwinian theory accounts for evolution as the result of long sequences of random mutations each filtered by natural selection. The random nature of this basic mechanism makes evolutionary events random. The theory must therefore be tested by estimating the probabilities of those events. This probability calculation has, however, not yet been adequately addressed.

Wilf & Ewens [2010] (W&E) recently attempted to address this issue, but their attempt was unsuccessful. Their model of the evolutionary process omitted important features of evolution invalidating their conclusions. They considered a genome consisting of L loci (genes), and an evolutionary process in which each allele at these loci would eventually mutate so that the final genome would be of a more “superior” or “advanced” type. They let K-1 be the fraction of potential alleles at each gene locus that would contribute to the “superior” genome. They modeled the evolutionary process as a random guessing of the letters of a word. The word has L letters in an alphabet of K letters. In each round of guessing, each letter can be changed and could be converted to a “superior” letter with probability K-1.

At the outset they stated the two goals of their study, neither of which they achieved. Their first goal was to “to indicate why an evolutionary model often used to ‘discredit’ Darwin, leading to the ‘not enough time’ claim, is inappropriate.” Their second goal was “to find the mathematical properties of a more appropriate model.”  They described what they called the “inappropriate model” as follows:

“The paradigm used in the incorrect argument is often formalized as follows:  Suppose that we are trying to find a specific unknown word of L letters, each of the letters having been chosen from an alphabet of K letters. We want to find the word by means of a sequence of rounds of guessing letters.  A single round consists in guessing all of the letters of the word by choosing, for each letter, a randomly chosen letter from the alphabet.  If the correct word is not found, a new sequence is guessed, and the procedure is continued until the correct sequence is found.  Under this paradigm the mean number of rounds of guessing until the correct sequence is found is indeed KL.”

They gave no reference for such a model and, to my knowledge, no responsible person has ever proposed such a model for the evolutionary process to “discredit” Darwin. Such a model had indeed been suggested by many, not for the evolutionary process, but for abiogenesis (e.g., [Hoyle & Wickramasinghe 1981]) where it is indeed appropriate. Their first goal was not achieved.

They then described their own model, which they called “a more appropriate model.” On the basis of their model, they concluded that the mean time for evolution increases as K log L, in contrast to KL of the “inappropriate” model. They called the first model “serial” and said that their “more correct” model of evolution was “parallel”.  Their characterization of “serial” and “parallel” for the above two models is mistaken. Evolution is a serial process, not a parallel one, and their model of the first, or “inappropriate”, process is better characterized as “simultaneous” than “serial” because the choosing of the sequence (either nucleotides or amino acids) is simultaneous. What they called their “more appropriate” model is the following:

“After guessing each of the letters, we are told which (if any) of the guessed letters are correct, and then those letters are retained. The second round of guessing is applied only for the incorrect letters that remain after this first round, and so forth. This procedure mimics the ‘in parallel’ evolutionary process.”

W&E were mistaken in thinking the evolutionary process to be an in-parallel one — it is an in-series one. A rare adaptive mutation may occur in one locus of the genome of a gamete of some individual, will become manifest in the genome of a single individual of the next generation, and will be heritable to future generations. If this mutation grants the individual an advantage leading to it having more progeny than its nonmutated contemporaries, the new genome’s representation in the population will tend to increase exponentially and eventually it may take over the population.

Let p be the probability that in a particular generation, (1) an adaptive mutation will occur in some individual in the population, and (2) the mutated genome will eventually take over the population. If both these should happen, then we could say that one evolutionary step has occurred. The mean number of generations (waiting time) for the appearance of such a mutation and its subsequent population takeover is 1/p. (I am ignoring the generations needed for a successful adaptive mutation to take over the population. These generations must be added to the waiting time for a successful adaptive mutation to occur.)  After the successful adaptive mutation has taken over the population, the appearance of another adaptive mutation can start another step.

In L steps of this kind, L new alleles will be incorporated into the mean genome of the population. These steps occur in series and the mean waiting time for L such steps is just L times the waiting time for one of them, or L/p. Thus the number of generations needed to modify L alleles is linear in L and not logarithmic as concluded from the flawed analysis of W&E.

The flaws in the analysis of W&E lie in the faulty assumptions on which their model is based. The “word” that is the target of the guessing game is meant to play the role of the set of genes in the genome and the “letters” are meant to play the role of the genes. A round of guessing represents a generation. Guessing a correct letter represents the occurrence of a potentially adaptive mutation in a particular gene in some individual in the population. There are K letters in their alphabet, so that the probability of guessing the correct letter is K-1. They wrote that

1– (1 – 1/K)r

is the probability that the first letter of the word will be correctly guessed in no more than r rounds of guessing. It is also, of course, the probability that any other specific letter would be guessed. Then they wrote that

[1– (1 – 1/K)r]L

is the probability that all L letters will be guessed in no more than r rounds. The event whose probability is the first of the above two expressions is the occurrence in r rounds of at least one correct guess of a letter. This corresponds to the appearance of an adaptive mutation in some individual in the population. That of the second expression is the occurrence of L of them. From these probability expressions we see that according to W&E each round of guessing yields as many correct letters as are lucky enough to be guessed. The correct guesses in a round remain thereafter unchanged, and guessing proceeds in successive rounds only on the remaining letters.

Their model does not mimic natural selection at all. In one generation, according to the model, some number of potentially adaptive mutations may occur, each most likely in a different individual. W&E postulate that these mutations remain in the population and are not changed. Contrary to their intention, this event is not yet evolution, because the mutations have occurred only in single individuals and have not become characteristic of the population. Moreover, W&E have ignored the important fact that a single mutation, even if it has a large selection coefficient, has a high probability of disappearing through random effects [Fisher 1958]. They allow further mutations only in those loci that have not mutated into the “superior” form. It is not clear if they intended that mutations be forbidden in those mutated loci only in those individuals that have the mutation or in other individuals as well. They have ignored the fact that evolution does not occur until an adaptive mutation has taken over the population and thereby becomes a characteristic of the population. Their letter-guessing game is more a parody of the evolutionary process than a model of it. They have not achieved their second goal either.

Thus their conclusion that “there’s plenty of time for evolution” is unsubstantiated. The probability calculation to justify evolutionary theory remains unaddressed.

References

Fisher, R. A. (1958). The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection, Oxford. Second revised edition, New York: Dover. [First published in 1929]

Hoyle, F. and N. C. Wickramasinghe, (1981). Evolution from Space, London: Dent.

Wilf, H. S. & Ewens, W. J.  (2010) There’s plenty of time for evolution. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 107 (52): 22454-22456.


[*] This paper is a critique of a paper that appeared recently in the Proceedings National Academy of Sciences USA and rightfully should have been published there. It was submitted there and was rejected without review and the reason given was that the Board did not find it “to be of sufficient interest for publication.” When I noted how unreasonable this reply was, the editor replied that the paper “makes some obvious and elementary points of no relevance to the paper, and in my opinion does not warrant publication.” The Board then refused to comment further on the matter. It was clear that the Board’s rejection was not on the merit of the substance of the paper but for some other, undisclosed reason.

Comments
Sorry mung, could you please give me your e-mail so I can run my posts by you for your approval before I post them??
We're supposed to be self-moderating.Mung
May 30, 2011
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http://arxiv.org/abs/1010.5178 New mathematics research proves there's plenty of time for evolution We need more models like this...
Notice that this is not a concrete estimate of the time it would take for something to evolve! It's a grossly simplified version of the story: the example overstates the power of selection (amino acids won't be locked in, but will only be less likely to change), and overstates the required accuracy of matching to a target (there would be more tolerance for variation), and the whole idea of meeting a specific target is not necessarily a good model. As a guide to short-circuiting the invalid assumptions of creationists, though, it's handy to have a simple mathematical formula to remove that naive combinatorial model from the table. - P.Z. Myers
Mung
May 30, 2011
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mung, 'I second the motion' Sorry mung, could you please give me your e-mail so I can run my posts by you for your approval before I post them??? :)bornagain77
May 30, 2011
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“After guessing each of the letters, we are told which (if any) of the guessed letters are correct, and then those letters are retained. The second round of guessing is applied only for the incorrect letters that remain after this first round, and so forth. This procedure mimics the ‘in parallel’ evolutionary process.”
Again I agree with Spetner. To this point his analysis has been spot-on. This is still a serial process. It now sounds very much like the Weasel program, but it still isn't even to that point yet. So how do we introduce parallelism? Through having not one string trying to find the target, but rather through multiple strings trying to find the target. By introducing the concept of a "population." The term "replicational resources" comes to mind. This is an even better model, not necessarily because it more closely models evolution, but because it allows the program to search a larger space. But it's still a search, and it still has targets. We're just increasing the efficiency. I forget how many strings the Weasel program started with. I think ev started with a population of 64, iirc. Anyone not still with me so far? The first model has a search space the size of which is determined by the word length and the number of letters in the alphabet. The target string is at a "fixed location" within that search space. Every new attempt tests a completely different location in the space, unless by pure chance the same letters are chosen more than once. In the "rev" program we increased the number of targets, and we introduced a chance that they might perhaps move a bit from their original "location" in the search space. But it's still a search space, the search space is still bounded, or still the same size, but by introducing more targets we've actually improved our chances of finding one of them (success). That's basically what ev does, and therefore it still has targets. So what if there are more than one and they can move a bit in the search space.Mung
May 30, 2011
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Didn't take long to stray far afield of the OP. I don't imagine we'll see Dr. Spectre back to discuss it.
“The paradigm used in the incorrect argument is often formalized as follows: Suppose that we are trying to find a specific unknown word of L letters, each of the letters having been chosen from an alphabet of K letters. We want to find the word by means of a sequence of rounds of guessing letters. A single round consists in guessing all of the letters of the word by choosing, for each letter, a randomly chosen letter from the alphabet. If the correct word is not found, a new sequence is guessed, and the procedure is continued until the correct sequence is found. Under this paradigm the mean number of rounds of guessing until the correct sequence is found is indeed K^L.”
What are the authors talking about? Anything recognizable to anyone here? I mean, I don't think even Dawkins Weasel program works like this. Isn't this just a random search? Talk about setting up a straw-man. I mean, how difficult could it be to come up with a better model than that? IS there anyone here who would argue that the above program did not have a target? What if we increased the number of possible words to 16. What if for each round we introduced a chance that each of the 16 words would itself be changed. Does our new program now have no target? Let's name our new program rev, for Random EV. Now what are some things we could do to make our search more efficient? Well, one think we could do, is sort of model our search using techniques we think are found in nature. In steps the Evolutionary Algorithm (EA). But those pesky targets are still there.Mung
May 30, 2011
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BA77: I’m happy and interested in having a dialogue with you but I wish you would resist flooding the discussion with links and imprecations that people who disagree with you are wrong.
I second the motion.Mung
May 30, 2011
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CY: You should look into the controversy surrounding Dr Dawkins' selfish gene notion. I've personally had discussions with a PhD level biologist who thinks Dr Dawkins reductionist approach is rubbish. He's had to defend and argue his position over the decades. And, like a good scientist, he's given way on some aspects of his idea. And his support of the meme concept has also taken some heat. In short, the man is used to pushing and arguing over the boundaries of science. Did you know he and Stephen Jay Gould used to have quite public feuds about punctuated equilibrium? Read Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker to get his version of the conflict.ellazimm
May 30, 2011
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BA77 @5:
But DrBOT, don’t you also think that avida, ev, and weasel, are proof of evolution???
Elizabeth Liddle @6:
I doubt it, bornagain77 – scientists don’t actually deal in “proof”.
When one uses Shannon's measure for understanding biology, one comes to the clear conclusion that the evolutionary mechanism proposed by Darwin is completely sufficient to explain the information ('complexity') of living organisms. Re-read my paper on Evolution of Biological Information. There is your proof. - Dr. Thomas D. Schneider
here OOPS. Does this mean Dr. Schneider isn't a scientist?Mung
May 30, 2011
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@ CannuckianYankee (I guess I was a CannuckianBrit for a while....hi!)
Elizabeth, This may all sound kind of silly, but when Richard Dawkins was interviewed for the film “Expelled,” he admitted that he could accept scientifically, a panspermia explanation for the origin of life on our planet, but not a supernatural one scientifically. He then stated that whoever those hypothetical aliens are, they too must have begun from a naturalistic abiogenesis (or so to speak). Personally, I can’t see what the difference would be on a scientific level other than Dawkins’ prior commitment to only naturalistic explanations. Do you see a difference? Why?
Well, exactly what you said - Dawkins is committed only to naturalistic explanations. However, I think that is entirely valid, and has nothing to do with whether or not you are an atheist or not. "Supernatural", essentially, means "unexplained". It may well mean more than that too, but something cannot be, as I see it (and I think in the sense Dawkins is saying it) both "supernatural" and "an explanation". Now, it may well be that some events do not have an explanation - they are "miracles" or "supernatural events". But by definition, then, we cannot go further with the explanatory process. We just have to say: "well, clearly a supernatural event happened here, so we aren't ever going to know how it happened". In other words, science, which is, by definition, about explanations cannot go further once "supernatural" is reached. However, the problem is the only way we can know that the "supernatural" has been reached is when we run out of explanations. So it does seem entirely reasonable, to me, to keep pursing naturalistic explanations, even when you suspect there isn't one. So if I were to be convinced by you guys (and I'm not :)) that life could only have been intelligently designed, then as a scientist, the next question has to be "by whom" and "how". Of course I could just stop, and say "well, God, obviously". But the only thing that would allow me to infer "God" would be lack of a natural explanation. And simply not bothering to look isn't a good enough reason for concluding "God". Science can investigate natural intelligent agents. It is simply not equipped, by definition, to investigate God. Not because scientists are evil atheists but because by definition, what is amenable to science is what is "natural", and what is "supernatural" cannot be (or it wouldn't be supernatural!) For example,if someone figures out what psi is all about, then that won't be evidence for the supernatural, it will simply be evidence for yet another natural force. At least that's how I see it, and I guess Dawkins does too.
In short, Dawkins has a limited imagination. He can’t imagine how the universe could have been created by an intelligent designer. He accepts that life on Earth could have been started by one, but not the universe, because that could lend some doubt to his own views on abiogenesis.
Actually, I think the opposite. Dawkins has a scientific imagination that doesn't stop at the "explanations stop here". He, like most scientists will keep going, keep looking for explanations.
There’s two issues here. One is, I doubt if Dawkins actually believes in panspermia, and neither do I. Panspermia introduces a problem of infinite regresses of panspermia on planet after planet, unless as Dawkins states, there was abiogenesis on the planet of the hypothetical aliens, and who would know or care? This doesn’t solve anything, so Dawkins is likely to reject that, and stick to naturalistic abiogenesis.
Well, there's some evidence that amino acids are fairly common in the universe, so to that extent we already have evidence for "panspermia". But I think the reason most scientists don't go the whole hog and postulates that "protobionts" or even cells first appeared on non-terrestrial bodies is that there are a fair few good hypotheses around now about how it might have happened here. But, as I say, I don't myself think it has a lot to do with atheism or theism. It just has to do with fitting models to data :)
The second issue that isn’t resolved by Dawkins’ position is just what we’ve been talking about; the probabilistic resources for abiogenesis right here on Earth where it could be observed if true. If it’s silly, I haven’t got us very far. It it isn’t silly, I’ve just introduced some thinking, which gets us beyond any priors we may have. Thinking about intelligent designers (no matter who they are) does not take us outside of science, as Dawkins reluctantly demonstrated. Furthermore, a designer who is something greater than an agent of panspermia can make a lot more sense than naturalistic abiogenesis – given a limit in probabilistic resources. This is so because a designer of the order we’re talking about is not limited by probability constraints, since a designer does what he does intentionally, not by chance and necessity. Agreed?
Yes indeed. Well, we may want to discuss what we mean by "intentionally", but yes. I certainly have always regarded the argument that "intelligence" or "intention" is not amenable to scientific investigation simply wrong. After all, what do people think psychologists do? (Dembski himself has made this error in one of his papers).
With that in mind, I should go back and ask my original question once more: “what are your priors, which cause you to reject NFL?” If you say that you as Dawkins can accept only a naturalistic abiogenesis, then your argument about priors may apply to you; but do you honestly infer by this that they necessarily apply to everyone? In short, do you (unlike Dawkins) have an imagination outside of naturalism, which would allow for a design inference outside of it? If not, what on earth are you doing here? (I ask this honestly, not to judge you in any way). If you really desire to understand the argument from design, you must understand it outside naturalistic constraints and assumptions. If those are your priors, they are not ours, and this makes a huge difference in how we view life and the universe.
Well, I hope my post above this one has cleared up at least some misunderstanding about what I meant by "priors". But no, I don't think the supernatural is amenable to scientific investgation, as I said, by definition. But in principle it might be possible to make a confident scientific inference that life was designed by an intelligent agent. I don't myself, make that inference, because I don't think it is supported by the data. Also, what do you mean by "reject NFL"?
Thanks for your thoughts, though. I find them interesting and informative.
Thanks! And nice to talk to you too.Elizabeth Liddle
May 30, 2011
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Actually, all I meant by "priors" are the probabilities you give the various factors in your probability estimate. For example, if you are computing the probability of some chemical reaction, that probability will depend on a number of factors (the likelihood of the co-presence of the reacting compounds; the likelihood of a give temperature; the likelihood of a promoting catalyst) etc.) And each of those will come with a prior probability estimate, which itself is subject to adjustment in the light of new data. I wasn't actually talking about anything fancier than that! But it's an important point, nonetheless. For example, Fred Hoyle, Crick, and others, proposed "panspermia" because they thought the probability of abiogenesis was so low, it needed a longer time to have a decent chance of happening. Since then, a number of discoveries have led to an adjustment of those priors. These are of course subject to controversy and argument, but the the take-home message, it seems to me, is that you can't just sit down with a paper and pencil and a good head for permutation and figure out the probability of life. The answer will depend on, among other things, data. It's an empirical question as well as a mathematical one.Elizabeth Liddle
May 30, 2011
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Elizabeth, This may all sound kind of silly, but when Richard Dawkins was interviewed for the film "Expelled," he admitted that he could accept scientifically, a panspermia explanation for the origin of life on our planet, but not a supernatural one scientifically. He then stated that whoever those hypothetical aliens are, they too must have begun from a naturalistic abiogenesis (or so to speak). Personally, I can't see what the difference would be on a scientific level other than Dawkins' prior commitment to only naturalistic explanations. Do you see a difference? Why? In short, Dawkins has a limited imagination. He can't imagine how the universe could have been created by an intelligent designer. He accepts that life on Earth could have been started by one, but not the universe, because that could lend some doubt to his own views on abiogenesis. There's two issues here. One is, I doubt if Dawkins actually believes in panspermia, and neither do I. Panspermia introduces a problem of infinite regresses of panspermia on planet after planet, unless as Dawkins states, there was abiogenesis on the planet of the hypothetical aliens, and who would know or care? This doesn't solve anything, so Dawkins is likely to reject that, and stick to naturalistic abiogenesis. The second issue that isn't resolved by Dawkins' position is just what we've been talking about; the probabilistic resources for abiogenesis right here on Earth where it could be observed if true. If it's silly, I haven't got us very far. It it isn't silly, I've just introduced some thinking, which gets us beyond any priors we may have. Thinking about intelligent designers (no matter who they are) does not take us outside of science, as Dawkins reluctantly demonstrated. Furthermore, a designer who is something greater than an agent of panspermia can make a lot more sense than naturalistic abiogenesis - given a limit in probabilistic resources. This is so because a designer of the order we're talking about is not limited by probability constraints, since a designer does what he does intentionally, not by chance and necessity. Agreed? With that in mind, I should go back and ask my original question once more: "what are your priors, which cause you to reject NFL?" If you say that you as Dawkins can accept only a naturalistic abiogenesis, then your argument about priors may apply to you; but do you honestly infer by this that they necessarily apply to everyone? In short, do you (unlike Dawkins) have an imagination outside of naturalism, which would allow for a design inference outside of it? If not, what on earth are you doing here? (I ask this honestly, not to judge you in any way). If you really desire to understand the argument from design, you must understand it outside naturalistic constraints and assumptions. If those are your priors, they are not ours, and this makes a huge difference in how we view life and the universe. Thanks for your thoughts, though. I find them interesting and informative.CannuckianYankee
May 30, 2011
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Me: ".....sufficient time provided by the probabilistic resources in the observable universe for a naturalistic abiogenesis?" Ok, that doesn't quite make sense, because time is one of the resources.CannuckianYankee
May 30, 2011
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Elizabeth, "But probability estimates depend crucially on your priors, and I suggest it is our priors that differ." What do you find faulty in the probability argument from Dembski's "No Free Lunch?" What do you think are Dembski's priors that are different than your own? What do you think Gil's priors are when he states?: "All that matters is probabilistic resources, and the likelihood that they can overcome the inherent improbabilities." More importantly, what do you think a person who accepts Darwinian evolution's priors are when he/she accepts speculation into the existence of multiverses in order to increase probability resources? What would be a reason to seek an increase in probability resources if it isn't doubtful that Darwinian evolution already has sufficient resources? If in fact the multiverse hypothesis is an attempt to increase the probability resources, what do you think is overlooked (if anything) in such a hypothesis? Does this matter to you? You say you're not a materialist (or at least that such a label doesn't mean anything to you). As such, what evidences are important to you in determining that there is sufficient time provided by the probabilistic resources in the observable universe for a naturalistic abiogenesis? If the NFL argument is sound, what priors do you hold that would reject it? What priors do you think a person who accepts it as sound would adhere to? A lot of questions, I know, but I've been thinking about these issues for some time, and I think it doesn't come down to priors, but thinking logically about all the evidential parameters involved. It is my view that those who accept some form of naturalistic abiogenesis are not considering all the parameters, and that is their prior - not the evidence. The probability estimates depend on the evidence, not the priors.CannuckianYankee
May 30, 2011
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Elizabeth you state; 'But good honest people can differ on their priors' No Elizabeth, proper priors, or presuppositions, can only be formed by Theism. Thus malformed 'priors', or presuppositions, formed by anti-theism eventually, and always, lead to erroneous conclusions in the end; i.e. THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics John Lennox - Science Is Impossible Without God - Quotes - video remix http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6287271/ Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 "Atheists may do science, but they cannot justify what they do. When they assume the world is rational, approachable, and understandable, they plagiarize Judeo-Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality and the moral need to seek the truth. As an exercise, try generating a philosophy of science from hydrogen coming out of the big bang. It cannot be done. It’s impossible even in principle, because philosophy and science presuppose concepts that are not composed of particles and forces. They refer to ideas that must be true, universal, necessary and certain." Creation-Evolution Headlines http://creationsafaris.com/crev201102.htm#20110227a as well, as I recently pointed out to you, it is a malformed 'prior' anti-theology, that was the basis of Darwin's book: Charles Darwin, Theologian: Major New Article on Darwin's Use of Theology in the Origin of Species - May 2011 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/charles_darwin_theologian_majo046391.html ,, Thus Elizabeth your assertion that 'good honest people can differ on their priors' completely misses the fact that malformed priors must be addressed and 'rooted out' so that the weeds that spring from erroneous presuppositions 'priors' never spring forth again!bornagain77
May 30, 2011
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ellazimm:
And I”m not saying neo-Darwinism is complete and finished. But to throw it down means finding something which has greater explanatory power.
Nope- no need to wait for something else before getting rid of what you have that is junk.Joseph
May 30, 2011
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Neil Rickert:
Your computation would be correct if it were assumed that evolution is directed toward attaining a particular outcome.
That isn't in the paper, so why would you say that? The papehe was addresig used a goal-oriented process, perhaps that is what has you confused.Joseph
May 30, 2011
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ER:
Nothing is “proven” in science, only “supported” or “rejected”.
And there isn't any evdence to support the claim that geneti accidents cn accumulaten such a way as to construct useful, functional multi-par sysems ad living organisms are full of them.Joseph
May 30, 2011
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H'mm: There's a Pre Cambrian, digital code controlled robot in the cell though, and its self-replicating facility is ADDITIONAL cause for wonder.kairosfocus
May 30, 2011
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@GilDodgen
All that matters is probabilistic resources, and the likelihood that they can overcome the inherent improbabilities. This is a simple mathematical concept that seems to elude Darwinists. Perhaps they all missed seventh-grade math in junior high school, or perhaps they’ve lost their ability to think rationally because of a commitment to Darwinian ideology.
No, we didn't all miss seventh-grad math, and a lot of us are quite good at rational thinking :) But probability estimates depend crucially on your priors, and I suggest it is our priors that differ. But good honest people can differ on their priors :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 30, 2011
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JD Curtis: yes indeed, which is why I keep saying that science doesn't, in fact, proceed by falsification (except in the negative sense of falsifying the null) but by fitting models to data and selecting the model with the best fit. So yes, if a rabbit fossil was found in the pre-Cambrian, the first response would have to be: is it real? And even if it could be shown to be a mammal-like organism with a genuine pre-Cambrian date, it wouldn't actually falsify the ToE, not because the ToE is unfalsifiable in a Popperian sense, but because the ToE is, if you like, a general model that is fitted by means of specific parameters. But it would require such a radical tweak of parameters that it might indeed call the ToE into question. However, what it would most definitely do is to give rise to specific hypotheses, within the ToE: either we have got the entire mammalian phylogeny wrong, in which case we would immediately start to look for precursors and descendents of the pre-Cambrian organism that would support an alternate mammalian phylogeny, or it would be an example of convergent evolution, in which case we would also look for precursors and descendents that would support a parallel phylogeny. If none of these could be found, then, yes, perhaps a completely different model to the ToE would become a better fit to the data than the ToE. Just as, for example, eventually the "luminiferous ether" had to be abandoned, and Einstein's relativity adopted in its place. However, the fact is that there is no pre-Cambrian rabbit fossil! So right now, the ToE serves us pretty well, although the parameters are still subject to tweaking and retweaking as more data is acquired, and indeed the elegant simplicity of Darwin's original model has been supplemented with all kinds of other factors and mechanisms, including drift and horizontal gene transfer. So, if you like, what would really supplant the ToE isn't so much a pre-Cambrian rabbit, as another theory with even greater explanatory power. And that is happening all the time (e.g. epigenetics).Elizabeth Liddle
May 30, 2011
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BA77: Thank you for the link regarding the whale rear legs. I will peruse it!ellazimm
May 29, 2011
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Time is only one variable in the equation. All that matters is probabilistic resources, and the likelihood that they can overcome the inherent improbabilities. This is a simple mathematical concept that seems to elude Darwinists. Perhaps they all missed seventh-grade math in junior high school, or perhaps they've lost their ability to think rationally because of a commitment to Darwinian ideology.GilDodgen
May 29, 2011
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Well,...there’s always that pre-Cambrian rabbit! Elizabeth, as one writer (Vox Day) once put it, if you think that scientists will just rent their lab jackets, put on sack cloth, and cover themselves in ashes while then rejecting macroevolution due to a rabbit find in pre-Cambrian rock strata, then you don't know them very well. The first reaction from the scientific community would be Those arent rabbit bones. And then once it has been conclusively shown that they are, in fact, rabbit bones, then they will change gears and go with That isn't actually pre-Cambrian rock strata that they were found in. And once it is proven that it is in fact pre-Cambrian rock strata, they'll probably come up with The theory of evolution has been around for over 100 years and numerous scientists subscribe to it and work on it. It'll take alot more than this instance of rabbit bones to disprove the theory.JD Curtis
May 29, 2011
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ellazimm you keep tickling me with this every time you mention it; 'what is the explanation for the vestigal hind limbs of whales?' ,,,guess it is time to let you in on a secret on what the 'vestigial whale legs' actually do: An Email Exchange Regarding "Vestigial" Pelvic Bones in Whales by Jim Pamplin excerpt: The pelvic bones of whales serve as attachments for the musculature associated with the penis in males and its homologue, the clitoris, in females. The muscle involved is known as the ischiocavernosus and is quite a powerful muscle in males. It serves as a retractor muscle for the penis in copulation and probably provides the base for lateral movements of the penis. The mechanisms of penile motion are not well understood in whales. The penis seems to be capable of a lot of independent motion, much like the trunk of an elephant. How much of this is mediated by the ischiocavernosus is not known. In females the anatomical parts are smaller and more diffuse. I would imagine that there is something homologous to the perineal muscles in man and tetrapods, which affect the entire pelvic area - the clitoris, vagina and anus. The pelvic rudiments also serve as origins for the ischiocaudalis muscle, which is a ventral muscle that inserts on the tips of the chevron bones of the spinal column and acts to flex the tail in normal locomotion. James G. Mead, Ph.D. Curator of Marine Mammals, MRC 108 National Museum of Natural History Smithsonian Institution http://www.darwinisdead.com/an_email_exchange_regarding.htm further notes: C-value enigma Excerpt: it was soon found that C-values (genome sizes) vary enormously among species and that this bears no relationship to the presumed number of genes (as reflected by the complexity of the organism). For example, the cells of some salamanders may contain 40 times more DNA than those of humans. Given that C-values were assumed to be constant because DNA is the stuff of genes, and yet bore no relationship to presumed gene number, this was understandably considered paradoxical (i.e. that is that it is paradoxical to the reductive materialism of neo-Darwinism, but not so paradoxical from a Design perspective); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-value_enigma More Points on ERVs - JonathanM - May 2011 Excerpt: 'In the absence of a feasible naturalistic mechanism to account for how evolution from a common ancestor could have occurred, how can we be so sure that it did occur? In such a case, one ought to reasonably expect there to be some quite spectacular evidence for common ancestry. Unfortunately for Darwinists, however, the evidence for common ancestry is paper thin on the ground.' http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/05/more_points_on_ervs046761.html ,,,, ellazimm, it is interesting that you would bring up all these irrelevant points, which, as you can now see, do you no good anyway. What exactly does all that periphery stuff have to do with the fact that the 'local realism' of neo-Darwinism is falsified by the finding of quantum non-locality in molecular biology??? ,,, In fact, being a Christian, I am very concerned that you get this 'non-local quantum information' stuff right, for I firmly believe that this quantum non-local information found, on a massive scale, in molecular biology is, among other things, a very strong indication that man has a eternal soul! Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Francis Chan - The Recent Discussion On Hell: We can't afford to get it wrong - video http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FJ9JMMNUbornagain77
May 29, 2011
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@Elizabeth Iddle
"Instead, what scientists normally do is to compare models for fit. An authenticated pre-Cambrian rabbit would cause the ToE to fit extremely badly. It wouldn’t strictly falsify it, however."
Wouldn't falsify it? ....hmmmm... Appears that Walter Remine is right. The theory of evolution would 'survive' any scenario for falsification by a 'Smorgasbord' of explanations. :DJGuy
May 29, 2011
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ellazimm, 'But to throw it down means finding something which has greater explanatory power.' You mean like ID, with Genetic Entropy as overriding mechanism explaining all biological adaptations from initial point of Design implementation??? What a wonderful idea ellazimm, glad you thought of it! The following study surveys four decades of experimental work, and solidly backs up the preceding conclusion that there has never been an observed violation of genetic entropy: “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.(that is a net 'fitness gain' within a 'stressed' environment i.e. remove the stress from the environment and the parent strain is always more 'fit') http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00bornagain77
May 29, 2011
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BA77: Assuming quantum non-locality refutes neo-Darwinism then what is the explanation for the vestigal hind limbs of whales? Or the varied sizes of genomes? Or the common insertion points of endogenous retroviruses in primate species but not others? I'm not making a theological argument, I'm asking a question. And I"m not saying neo-Darwinism is complete and finished. But to throw it down means finding something which has greater explanatory power. As one would want. Such is the pursuit of science.ellazimm
May 29, 2011
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ellazimm, but alas this is science, I have shown you guys 'scientifically' that you are wrong. It is not me saying you are wrong it is the science!!! Nothing personal at all, to refute the falsification of neo-Darwinism just show local realism to be sufficient to explain quantum non-locality we find within molecular biology!bornagain77
May 29, 2011
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bornagain77 - I think you are making some rather unwarranted assumptions as to what I believe :) I don't know what "neo-Darwinian materialism" even is, and I certainly have no problem in accepting the findings of quantum physics (though I'm no physicist), which I find fascinating. I don't have an "atheistic/materialistic religion". I don't actually have a religion at all, in the sense people usually use the word, although until fairly recently I was a firm theist (a catholic, in fact). I still have what I call a "God-model" although increasingly I call it something else (I find the God-label comes with an awful lot of baggage). Practically, though, I still believe what I've always believed: that the most important human imperative is: "Love one another". And guess who I got it from :)Elizabeth Liddle
May 29, 2011
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BA77: I'm happy and interested in having a dialogue with you but I wish you would resist flooding the discussion with links and imprecations that people who disagree with you are wrong. We KNOW you disagree with us! We are trying to gain a better understanding of each others' point of view NOT win an argument. It's okay for reasonable, intelligent, informed people to disagree surely. And, to be honest, I don't understand what you're saying in this: "Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various ‘special’ configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place!" As I've said before, QM does not imply any non-mechanistic processes. We don't understand the causes, just like we don't understand what causes gravity, but we don't ascribe supernatural causes to things that can be defined with simple statistics.ellazimm
May 29, 2011
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