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“No Major Conceptual Leaps”

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LANGUAGE OF GODI periodically get emails from individuals who are sympathetic to ID but then read Francis Collins’ THE LANGUAGE OF GOD and find themselves wondering what to think. Thus I recently received the following email:

Dear Dr. Dembski,

I … have read, I think, three of your books — the most recent “The Design Revolution”. I have been thoroughly convinced of your position in these books.

I was encouraged by a friend of many years, who was Professor of Science at … for 40 years … to consider the book by Francis S. Collins — “The Language of God”, which I have just read. This was in exchange for his reading “The Design Revolution.” I’ve not heard from him after reading it.

In “The Language of God”, there is this statement on pp 191-192:

“A particularly damaging crack in the foundation of Intelligent Design theory, arises from recent revelations about the poster child of ID, the bacterial flagellum. The argument that it is irreducibly complex rests upon the presumption that the individual subunits of the flagellum could have had no prior useful function of some other sort, and therefore the motor could not have been assembled by recruiting such components in a step-wise fashion, driven by the forces of natural selection. Recent research has fundamentally undercut this position.”

Assuming that you have read this statement, I’m sure you have a ready answer.

What would be your response to thiis?

Thank you.

I replied to him that Collins makes this statement without citation, and that Collins can’t justify it — that he’s “bluffing.” I suggested that he contact Collins himself and also look at the following piece that I posted here at UD some time back: response to Philip Klebba.

This person then did go ahead and contact Collins. Collins responded by sending him the Pallen-Matzke review article on the flagellum (Mark J. Pallen and Nicholas J. Matzke, “From The Origin of Species to the Origin of Bacterial Flagella,” NATURE REVIEWS MICROBIOLOGY 4 (Oct 2006): 784-790.

This paper is remarkable for what it demands (or fails to demand) of evolutionary theory. The key passage is this: “designing an evolutionary model to account for the origin of the ancestral flagellum requires no great conceptual leap.” Of course it doesn’t — one can always imagine some way that natural selection might have brought about the system in question. In the Origin of Species, Darwin played the same game: “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” To this Darwin immediately added: “But I can find out no such case.”

Requiring no great conceptual leaps or being unable to find a case where Darwin’s theory could not possibly apply is not the same thing as providing evidence. Sure, the proteins in the flagellum may have homologues that serve functions in other systems. And we can imagine that the parts were co-opted over time by selection to produce the flagellum. But so what? We can imagine lots of things. Where’s the evidence that it happened that way? And why isn’t the exquisite engineering that we observe in the flagellum evidence for ID?

Collins, Pallen, Matzke and all other evolutionists who hold that a Darwinian explanation of the bacterial flagellum has been adequately confirmed are bluffing.

Comments
Mynym,
Ironically it shouldn’t be up to reformers like Behe to go on a search for the edge of evolution, edges should have been specified by proponents long ago.</blockquote Sure, we could have left it up to the Nazis to rebuke their own regime as well.
What sort of biological observations would falsify or limit “evolution”? If it can add, subtract, keep things the same and explains all biological changes then how can it be Falsified?
Exactly.
PaulN
March 26, 2009
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So you think that evolution cannot subtract components? The real question is what can't evolution do and where is its edge? Ironically it shouldn't be up to reformers like Behe to go on a search for the edge of evolution, edges should have been specified by proponents long ago. What sort of biological observations would falsify or limit "evolution"? If it can add, subtract, keep things the same and explains all biological observations then how can it be verified?mynym
March 26, 2009
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iconofid, Wait a minute, you have a tail and scales? Man you lucked out. I'm stuck with bunny ears and a duck bill. Doesn't quite go over well with the ladies, and I also have an inexplicable attraction to lakes, docks, and people with bread in their hand.
Have IC enthusiasts ever tried to find out if there are systems that could be described as IC in one organism, but which exist in reduced forms in others? Wouldn’t that be a good area for I.D. research?
In all seriousness, yes, I believe it would. But then again you're a creationist and delusional and irrational if you believe random mutation could EVER reduce something in complexity without natural selection terminating it with extreme prejudice.PaulN
March 26, 2009
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iconofid, So you think that evolution cannot subtract components? If I remember Behe’s argument correctly (and it’s been a while since I’ve read Darwin’s Black Box), one of the things he looked at was the literature related to the blood clotting cascade—a system which is relatively well-understood and which has been extensively studied. He noted that in this series of many, many steps, if one was subtracted, removed, changed, or switched with another, the whole system failed. Thus, the system is IC. Subtracting components is easy. Subtracting components without damaging (or killing) the system is what’s the trick. On a side note, one of the reasons I find Behe and his arguments so convincing is that he talks about real systems, with real research histories and what they actually can and cannot do. Many of Behe’s critics counter with high-level prognosticating about stuff like co-option and how “plausible” it is.SteveB
March 26, 2009
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PaulN iconofid, Because natural selection is the perfect ratchet that hugs every microscopic detail of the bolt its turning and never, EVER slips or changes direction. You’re delusional and a creationist if you believe otherwise. Which, of course, doesn't answer my question, but might explain why I have a tail and scales. Have IC enthusiasts ever tried to find out if there are systems that could be described as IC in one organism, but which exist in reduced forms in others? Wouldn't that be a good area for I.D. research?iconofid
March 26, 2009
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iconofid, Because natural selection is the perfect ratchet that hugs every microscopic detail of the bolt its turning and never, EVER slips or changes direction. You're delusional and a creationist if you believe otherwise.PaulN
March 26, 2009
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mynym "IC doesn’t preclude evolution, it precludes Darwinism." So you think that evolution cannot subtract components? Why not?iconofid
March 26, 2009
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TCS @11 Totally agree. I believe there are physical and functional constraints to prevent such things from happening when you consider the real forces at work. For example I believe it would be utterly impossible even with infinite time for a tornado to assemble a boeing 737. For me it doesn't take much to come to this conclusion because just imagine the forces at work in a tornado, now imagine the thousands of screws that require finely tuned and specific forces to thread into each and every screw hole. Not only that but the order of assembly would have to be perfect as well, because even if you could get past such physical constraints with the screws, how would the seats get bolted down if the body of the plane is already assembled? They'd have to magically fly through an emergency exit, land in perfect alignment to their respective position on the floor, and then somehow get bolted down via natural forces. Even with that said, I think you have more chance of this successfully happening than for the thousands of biological mechanisms that we see today coming about via RM+NS.PaulN
March 26, 2009
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...whether a structure had evolved. Why else would ID proponents be making such a big fuss over it? Actually it seems to me that Miller, as a theist, would be in the best position to see the distinction between evolution by blind processes and events unfolding/evolving by design. It's curious though, if "evolution" is not linked to philosophic naturalism then why is there such "a big fuss over" Behe? After all, he accepts evolution, he's just arguing that intelligent input is necessary for events to unfold as they have. This undermines naturalism, not evolution. As actually formulated by Behe, however, irreducible complexity would preclude evolution... IC doesn't preclude evolution, it precludes Darwinism.mynym
March 26, 2009
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I can imagine a situation in which the component pieces of a mousetrap are put into a box that is constantly shaken over a long period of time. I can then imagine that these pieces happen to fall together and form a mousetrap. That doesn't mean it would, or could, ever happen, but I just imagined it happening. This is the type of argument which passes for science--the scientific method of the imagination. Mynym wrote a post awhile back on the subject that I thought was insightful: http://www.intelldesign.com/2009/01/12/imaginary-evidence/ TCS
March 26, 2009
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Gil, thanks for your comment. Despite my criticisms I still sometimes find myself imagining things about the past as Darwinists generally do. It's easy to fall into because we tend to be biased toward imagining that we have knowledge. It's important to try to focus on empirical facts, logic and logistical details in the real world.mynym
March 26, 2009
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Miller's mistake was in thinking that all of the hoopla surrounding irreducible complexity meant that it had some significance in deciding whether a structure had evolved. Why else would ID proponents be making such a big fuss over it? As actually formulated by Behe, however, irreducible complexity would preclude evolution only if a) the function of a structure were immutable as it evolved, and b) structures could evolve only by adding parts and never by removing them. Neither of these constraints applies to evolution. As for Gil Dodgen's comments regarding co-option, methinks he doth protest too much.skeech
March 26, 2009
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So when you speak of imagining some way that natural selection might have brought about the system in question, you’re not speaking of imagining a plausible way. I'm curious if you admit that IC is evident in the first place. Many seem to admit that it is and then imagine it away. For example, Dawkins' argument could be satirized as: "Biology is the study of things that look IC but we should imagine that they are not." It seems to me that if IC was not evident then it would not be necessary to try to imagine it away. At any rate, the standard for Darwinists is not that a mythological narrative of naturalism be "plausible" as you put it, it's that it be natural. They generally do not mind if an explanation seems implausible to them. As long as it seems natural, almost anything may be imagined. So it seems to me that you're missing the main issue.mynym
March 26, 2009
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Darwin played the same game... If you play Darwin's game by his rules your mind can become "overwhelmed" with imaginary evidence which has little to do with empirical reality. I've always thought that IC is merely an empirical reality that can be observed. What can generally be observed empirically is typically a form of integrated and functional complexity where if a part is taken away then a lack of function results. If so then irreducible complexity isn't an argument about the past similar to Darwinian reasoning which allows imaginary events in the past to be cited as "evidence" of some sort, instead it's generally an empirical observation which can be observed in the form and function of organisms here and now. The capacity of some to imagine things about function and so on doesn't change empirical facts like IC or explain the history of all biological specification, form and species scientifically. Explanations generally rooted in imagining things about the past are a type of explanation of the sort found in creation myths, not scientific theories.mynym
March 26, 2009
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Dr. Dembski, thanks for the clarification. So when you speak of imagining some way that natural selection might have brought about the system in question, you're not speaking of imagining a plausible way.R0b
March 26, 2009
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The argument that it is irreducibly complex rests upon the presumption that the individual subunits of the flagellum could have had no prior useful function of some other sort… This is a patently false claim and a gross misrepresentation of the challenge of irreducible complexity on Collins’ part, as Michael Behe has pointed out repeatedly to Ken Miller who also persists in misrepresenting the challenge of IC in this way. No claim is made that “the individual subunits of the flagellum could have had no prior useful function of some other sort.” The concept of IC rests on the fact that the removal of any of the parts causes the system to cease functioning. As for the “co-option” of naturally-selectable parts to create an IC system, this is just a totally made up, pie-in-the-sky fantasy, with no foundation in evidence or even trivial logic. I wrote a little essay on this for UD, which I include below.
The claim of the refutation of IC by co-option is so ubiquitous that some people are actually starting to believe it. I therefore feel that it is my civic duty to refute this "refutation" of IC, which turns out to be a trivial exercise. 1) In order for co-option to produce a bacterial flagellum (for example) all of the component parts must have been present at the same time and in roughly the same place, and all of them must have had other naturally-selectable, useful functions. There is no evidence whatsoever that this ever was the case, or that it ever even could have been the case. 2) The components would have to have been compatible with each other functionally. A bolt that is too large, too small, or that has threads that are too fine or too coarse to match those of a nut, cannot be combined with the nut to make a fastener. There is absolutely no evidence that this interface compatibility ever existed (between all those imaginary co-opted component parts), or that it even could have existed. 3) Even if all the parts are available at the same time and in the same place, and are functionally compatible, one can't just put them in a bag, shake them up, and have a motor fall out. An assembly mechanism is required, and that mechanism must be complete in every detail, otherwise incomplete or improper assembly will result, and no naturally-selectable function will be produced. The assembly mechanism thus represents yet another irreducibly complex hurdle. 4) Last, and perhaps most importantly, assembly instructions are required. Assembly must be timed and coordinated properly. And the assembly instructions must be complete in every detail, otherwise no function will result. This represents an additional irreducibly complex hurdle. Co-option is a demonstrably fantastic story made up out of whole cloth, with absolutely no basis in evidence. And it doesn't withstand even the most trivial analytical scrutiny. There is not a shred of evidence that this process ever took place, or that it even could have taken place. Worst of all, it requires blind acceptance of the clearly miraculous. There is a great irony here. This verifiably ridiculous co-option fantasy is presented as "science," while a straightforward and reasonable inference to design is labeled pseudoscience. The real state of affairs is precisely the reverse.
GilDodgen
March 26, 2009
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Good work on calling the bluff, I've always been convinced that a lot of the explanatory "facts" of Darwin's theory boil down to imagining things as far as the important details are concerned- Especially the ones that face heavy adversity. I could come up with a mathematical model and computer simulation that explains how millions of furious koala bears stampeding across the surface of Australia in specific patterns 5 million years ago could terraform the terrain to what we see today. But obviously such explanations aren't reflective of reality. The same could be said about many programs that were written to reflect Darwinistic evolutionary mechanisms.PaulN
March 26, 2009
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R0b: No, you are going with Ken Miller's redefinition of Behe's concept of irreducible complexity (IC). Behe only required of IC that it not be possible to simplify the system and recover the original function, not that it should be possible to simplify and obtain a different function (which is how Miller redefined it). Miller's redefinition is, of course, self-serving, for it means that nothing could be IC because everything can be imagined to have evolved from simpler systems doing other functions. Behe never said that it was logically impossible for IC systems to form by natural selection from simpler components. But he did argue this was implausible (have a look at pp. 110-113 of DARWIN'S BLACK BOX).William Dembski
March 26, 2009
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Of course it doesn’t — one can always imagine some way that natural selection might have brought about the system in question.
Doesn't a determination of IC require that there be no plausible natural selection scenario for the origin of the system? And without IC, there can be no tractable calculation of CSI. So it seems that imagining a natural selection scenario, while certainly not confirming MET, renders the main ID arguments impotent.R0b
March 26, 2009
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Excellent post Dr. Dembski! Notable by absence in the Pallen and Matzke review article is any citation of a peer reviewed research study providing a detailed, testable model for how evolution supposedly built a flagellum. Even more telling is the fact this article purports to lay out a research roadmap of how researchers might approach the problem, implying, of course, that no such research study has yet been done. While it might not require any great conceptual leap for Pallen and Matzke, it must be a huge leap for researchers because in the nearly 13 years since Dr. Behe first published Darwin's Black Box no one has produced any such study in any peer reivewed journal. The fact that P & M couldn't provide a single citatation for their review paper is tantamount to admission that no one has a clue how evolution did it. They just know its no great "conceptual leap" to imagine evolution doing it. Prove it!DonaldM
March 26, 2009
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