Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Signal to Noise: A Critical Analysis of Active Information

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The following is a guest post by Aurelio Smith. I have invited him to present a critique of Active Information in a more prominent place at UD so we can have a good discussion of Active Information’s strengths and weaknesses. The rest of this post is his.


My thanks to johnnyb for offering to host a post from me on the subject of ‘active information’. I’ve been following the fortunes of the ID community for some time now and I was a little disappointed that the recent publications of the ‘triumvirate’ of William Dembski, Robert Marks and their newly promoted postgrad Doctor Ewert have received less attention here than their efforts deserve. The thrust of their assault on Darwinian evolution has developed from earlier concepts such as “complex specified information” and “conservation of information” and they now introduce “Algorithmic Specified Complexity” and “Active information”.

Some history.

William Demsbski gives an account of the birth of his ideas here:

…in the summer of 1992, I had spent several weeks with Stephen Meyer and Paul Nelson in Cambridge, England, to explore how to revive design as a scientific concept, using it to elucidate biological origins as well as to refute the dominant materialistic understanding of evolution (i.e., neo-Darwinism). Such a project, if it were to be successful, clearly could not merely give a facelift to existing design arguments for the existence of God. Indeed, any designer that would be the conclusion of such statistical reasoning would have to be far more generic than any God of ethical monotheism. At the same time, the actual logic for dealing with small probabilities seemed less to directly implicate a designing intelligence than to sweep the field clear of chance alternatives. The underlying logic therefore was not a direct argument for design but an indirect circumstantial argument that implicated design by eliminating what it was not.*

[*my emphasis]

Dembski published The Design Inference in 1998, where the ‘explanatory filter’ was proposed as a tool to separate ‘design’ from ‘law’ and ‘chance’. The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. Wesley Elsberry’s review points out the failure to include unknown causation as a possibility. Dembski acknowledges the problem in a comment in a thread at Uncommon Descent – Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson

I wish I had time to respond adequately to this thread, but I’ve got a book to deliver to my publisher January 1 — so I don’t. Briefly: (1) I’ve pretty much dispensed with the EF. It suggests that chance, necessity, and design are mutually exclusive. They are not. Straight CSI [Complex Specified Information] is clearer as a criterion for design detection.* (2) The challenge for determining whether a biological structure exhibits CSI is to find one that’s simple enough on which the probability calculation can be convincingly performed but complex enough so that it does indeed exhibit CSI. The example in NFL ch. 5 doesn’t fit the bill. The example from Doug Axe in ch. 7 of THE DESIGN OF LIFE (www.thedesignoflife.net) is much stronger. (3) As for the applicability of CSI to biology, see the chapter on “assertibility” in my book THE DESIGN REVOLUTION. (4) For my most up-to-date treatment of CSI, see “Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence” at http://www.designinference.com. (5) There’s a paper Bob Marks and I just got accepted which shows that evolutionary search can never escape the CSI problem (even if, say, the flagellum was built by a selection-variation mechanism, CSI still had to be fed in).

[*my emphasis]

Active information.

Dr Dembski has posted some background to his association with Professor Robert Marks and The Evolutionary Informatics Lab which has resulted in the publication of several papers with active information as an important theme. A notable collaborator is Winston Ewert Ph D, whose master’s thesis was entitled: Studies of Active Information in Search where, in chapter four, he criticizes Lenski et al., 2003, saying:

[quoting Lenski et al., 2003]“Some readers might suggest that we stacked the deck by studying the evolution of a complex feature that could be built on simpler functions that were also useful.”

This, indeed, is what the writers of Avida software do when using stair step active information.

What is active information?

In A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search, Dembski, Ewert and Marks (henceforth DEM) give their definition of “active information” as follows:

In comparing null and alternative searches, it is convenient to convert probabilities to information measures (note that all logarithms in the sequel are to the base 2). We therefore define the endogenous information IΩ as –log(p), which measures the inherent difficulty of a blind or null search in exploring the underlying search space Ω to locate the target T. We then define the exogenous information IS as –log(q), which measures the difficulty of the alternative search S in locating the target T. And finally, we define the active information I+ as the difference between the endogenous and exogenous information: I+ = IΩ – IS = log(q/p). Active information therefore measures the information that must be added (hence the plus sign in I+) on top of a null search to raise an alternative search’s probability of success by a factor of q/p. [excuse formatting errors in mathematical symbols]

They conclude with an analogy from the financial world, saying:

Conservation of information shows that active information, like money, obeys strict accounting principles. Just as banks need money to power their financial instruments, so searches need active information to power their success in locating targets. Moreover, just as banks must balance their books, so searches, in successfully locating targets, must balance their books — they cannot output more information than was inputted.

In an article at the Pandas Thumb website Professor Joe Felsenstein, in collaboration with Tom English, presents some criticism of of the quoted DEM paper. Felsenstein helpfully posts an “abstract in the comments, saying:

Dembski, Ewert and Marks have presented a general theory of “search” that has a theorem that, averaged over all possible searches, one does not do better than uninformed guessing (choosing a genotype at random, say). The implication is that one needs a Designer who chooses a search in order to have an evolutionary process that succeeds in finding genotypes of improved fitness. But there are two things wrong with that argument: 1. Their space of “searches” includes all sorts of crazy searches that do not prefer to go to genotypes of higher fitness – most of them may prefer genotypes of lower fitness or just ignore fitness when searching. Once you require that there be genotypes that have different fitnesses, so that fitness affects their reproduction, you have narrowed down their “searches” to ones that have a much higher probability of finding genotypes that have higher fitness. 2. In addition, the laws of physics will mandate that small changes in genotype will usually not cause huge changes in fitness. This is true because the weakness of action at a distance means that many genes will not interact strongly with each other. So the fitness surface is smoother than a random assignment of fitnesses to genotypes. That makes it much more possible to find genotypes that have higher fitness. Taking these two considerations into account – that an evolutionary search has genotypes whose fitnesses affect their reproduction, and that the laws of physics militate against strong interactions being typical – we see that Dembski, Ewert, and Marks’s argument does not show that Design is needed to have an evolutionary system that can improve fitness.

I note that there is an acknowledgement in the DEM paper as follows:

The authors thank Peter Olofsson and Dietmar Eben for helpful feedback on previous work of the Evolutionary Informatics Lab, feedback that has found its way into this paper.

This is the same Professor Olofsson referred to in the “Some Thanks for Professor Olofsson thread mentioned above. Dietmar Eben has blogged extensively on DEM’s ideas.

I’m not qualified to criticize the mathematics but I see no need to doubt that it is sound. However what I do query is whether the model is relevant to biology. The search for a solution to a problem is not a model of biological evolution and the concept of “active information” makes no sense in a biological context. Individual organisms or populations are not searching for optimal solutions to the task of survival. Organisms are passive in the process, merely affording themselves of the opportunity that existing and new niche environments provide. If anything is designing, it is the environment. I could suggest an anthropomorphism: the environment and its effects on the change in allele frequency are “a voice in the sky” whispering “warmer” or “colder”. There is the source of the active information.

I was recently made aware that this classic paper by Sewall Wright, The Roles of Mutation, Inbeeding, Crossbreeding and Selection in Evolution, is available online. Rather than demonstrating the “active information” in Dawkins’ Weasel program, which Dawkins freely confirmed is a poor model for evolution with its targeted search, would DEM like to look at Wright’s paper for a more realistic evolutionary model?

Perhaps, in conclusion, I should emphasize two things. Firstly, I am utterly opposed to censorship and suppression. I strongly support the free exchange of ideas and information. I strongly support any genuine efforts to develop “Intelligent Design” into a formal scientific endeavor. Jon Bartlett sees advantages in the field of computer science and I say good luck to him. Secondly, “fitness landscape” models are not accurate representations of the chaotic, fluid, interactive nature of the real environment . The environment is a kaleidoscope of constant change. Fitness peaks can erode and erupt. Had Sewall Wright been developing his ideas in the computer age, his laboriously hand-crafted diagrams would, I’m sure, have evolved (deliberate pun) into exquisite computer models.

References

History: Wm Dembski 1998 the Design inference, explanatory filter ( Elsberry criticizes the book for using a definition of “design” as what is left over after chance and regularity have been eliminated)

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

Elsberry & Shallit

Theft over Toil John S. Wilkins, Wesley R. Elsberry 2001

Computational capacity of the universe Seth Lloyd 2001

Information Theory, Evolutionary Computation, and
Dembski’s “Complex Specified Information”
Elsberry and Shallit 2003

Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by William A. Dembski August 15, 2005

Evaluation of Evolutionary and Genetic
Optimizers: No Free Lunch
Tom English 1996

Conservation of Information Made Simple William Dembski 2012

…evolutionary biologists possessing the mathematical tools to understand search are typically happy to characterize evolution as a form of search. And even those with minimal knowledge of the relevant mathematics fall into this way of thinking.

Take Brown University’s Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist whose knowledge of the relevant mathematics I don’t know. Miller, in attempting to refute ID, regularly describes examples of experiments in which some biological structure is knocked out along with its function, and then, under selection pressure, a replacement structure is evolved that recovers the function. What makes these experiments significant for Miller is that they are readily replicable, which means that the same systems with the same knockouts will undergo the same recovery under the same suitable selection regime. In our characterization of search, we would say the search for structures that recover function in these knockout experiments achieves success with high probability.

Suppose, to be a bit more concrete, we imagine a bacterium capable of producing a particular enzyme that allows it to live off a given food source. Next, we disable that enzyme, not by removing it entirely but by, say, changing a DNA base in the coding region for this protein, thus changing an amino acid in the enzyme and thereby drastically lowering its catalytic activity in processing the food source. Granted, this example is a bit stylized, but it captures the type of experiment Miller regularly cites.

So, taking these modified bacteria, the experimenter now subjects them to a selection regime that starts them off on a food source for which they don’t need the enzyme that’s been disabled. But, over time, they get more and more of the food source for which the enzyme is required and less and less of other food sources for which they don’t need it. Under such a selection regime, the bacterium must either evolve the capability of processing the food for which previously it needed the enzyme, presumably by mutating the damaged DNA that originally coded for the enzyme and thereby recovering the enzyme, or starve and die.

So where’s the problem for evolution in all this? Granted, the selection regime here is a case of artificial selection — the experimenter is carefully controlling the bacterial environment, deciding which bacteria get to live or die*. [(* My emphasis) Not correct – confirmed by Richard Lenski – AF] But nature seems quite capable of doing something similar. Nylon, for instance, is a synthetic product invented by humans in 1935, and thus was absent from bacteria for most of their history. And yet, bacteria have evolved the ability to digest nylon by developing the enzyme nylonase. Yes, these bacteria are gaining new information, but they are gaining it from their environments, environments that, presumably, need not be subject to intelligent guidance. No experimenter, applying artificial selection, for instance, set out to produce nylonase.

To see that there remains a problem for evolution in all this, we need to look more closely at the connection between search and information and how these concepts figure into a precise formulation of conservation of information. Once we have done this, we’ll return to the Miller-type examples of evolution to see why evolutionary processes do not, and indeed cannot, create the information needed by biological systems. Most biological configuration spaces are so large and the targets they present are so small that blind search (which ultimately, on materialist principles, reduces to the jostling of life’s molecular constituents through forces of attraction and repulsion) is highly unlikely to succeed. As a consequence, some alternative search is required if the target is to stand a reasonable chance of being located. Evolutionary processes driven by natural selection constitute such an alternative search. Yes, they do a much better job than blind search. But at a cost — an informational cost, a cost these processes have to pay but which they are incapable of earning on their own.

Meaningful Information

Meaningful Information Paul Vit´anyi 2004

The question arises whether it is possible to separate meaningful information from accidental information, and if so, how.

Evolutionary Informatics Publications

Conservation of Information in Relative Search Performance Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Algorithmic Specified Complexity
in the Game of Life
Ewert, Dembski, Marks 2015

Digital Irreducible Complexity: A Survey of Irreducible
Complexity in Computer Simulations
Ewert 2014

On the Improbability of Algorithmic Specified
Complexity
Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Wikipedia, upper probability bound, complex specified information, conservation of information, meaningful information.

A General Theory of Information Cost Incurred by Successful Search Dembski, Ewert, Marks 2013

Actually, in my talk, I work off of three papers, the last of which Felsenstein fails to cite and which is the most general, avoiding the assumption of uniform probability to which Felsenstein objects.

EN&V

Dietmar Eben’s blog

Dieb review “cost of successful search

Conservation of Information in Search:
Measuring the Cost of Success
Dembski, Marks 2009

The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of
Higher Level Search
Dembski, Marks 2009

Has Natural Selection Been Refuted? The Arguments of William Dembski Joe Felsenstein 2007

In conclusion
Dembski argues that there are theorems that prevent natural selection from explaining the adaptations that we see. His arguments do not work. There can be no theorem saying that adaptive information is conserved and cannot be increased by natural selection. Gene frequency changes caused by natural selection can be shown to generate specified information. The No Free Lunch theorem is mathematically correct, but it is inapplicable to real biology. Specified information, including complex specified information, can be generated by natural selection without needing to be “smuggled in”. When we see adaptation, we are not looking at positive evidence of billions and trillions of interventions by a designer. Dembski has not refuted natural selection as an explanation for adaptation.

ON DEMBSKI’S LAW OF CONSERVATION OF INFORMATION Erik Tellgren 2002

Comments
Elizabeth Liddle @ TSZ:
He’ll ban me anyway, I expect, shortly.
LoL.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
08:24 PM
8
08
24
PM
PDT
daveS, But he finds time to post at TSZ. :)Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
08:14 PM
8
08
14
PM
PDT
Sal's just too busy with Creation Evolution University to post here anymore.daveS
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
07:45 PM
7
07
45
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle @16:
A point worth making, I think, is that it can be misleading to separate the concept of the “fitness landscape” from the search algorithm you are considering.
What on earth does this have to do with evolution, since evolution is not a search?Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
06:41 PM
6
06
41
PM
PDT
My head just exploded!Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
06:30 PM
6
06
30
PM
PDT
ba77: I recently posed the question to Salvador. Does he still have his OP posting privileges here at UD, and if so does he just choose not to use them? He declined to answer. Salvador's no mystery. He's looking for affirmation. If he can't find it here he goes elsewhere.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
It's time the truth came out: Sal Cordova is Elizabeth Liddle. :) j/k folksUpright BiPed
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
06:28 PM
6
06
28
PM
PDT
Elizabeth shows her desperation by throwing Dawkins under the bus:
I thought that was very revealing actually. Dawkins is the real bugbear here, I think. ironic that he is (IMO) such so unsound on evolutionary theory. I wonder how many opponents of evolution know that Dawkins isn’t even an evolutionary biologist? Well, apart from the odd paper on digger wasps (and I don’t think he was even first author).
Strange when it is obvious he knows more about evolution than she does. From Wikipedia:
Clinton Richard Dawkins /?d??k?nz/, FRS, FRSL (born 26 March 1941) is an English ethologist, evolutionary biologist,[3] and writer. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford,[4] and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.[5]
Dawkins has been a leader of evolutionism since at least 1976 (selfish gene). He has influenced generations of biologists- he was an assistant professor of zoology, ie a biological science- Mayr was a zoologist. And for some reason Tom English doesn't think there was a generation of biologists raised on Dawkins. These people have no idea who he was and what he did. And that is hilarious.Joe
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
06:20 PM
6
06
20
PM
PDT
Mung at 575, Sal is a strange bird. Years ago I respected him quite a bit, but now I don't trust him much at all. Although he does have some good points, his conclusions don't seem all that well thought out. Never-the-less, what is the story behind him not posting on UD anymore? Did Mr. Arrington finally get tired of his less than forthright ways and quietly take away his OP posting privileges??bornagain77
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
06:13 PM
6
06
13
PM
PDT
Elizabeth @ TSZ:
Which means that you don’t need to add Active Information to an Evolutionary Search in order to find a Target, because there’s no Target, no search, and the Active Information is simply the increased probability of solving a problem if you have some sort of feedback for each attempt, and partial solutions are moderately similar to better ones.
There's no such thing as an "Evolutionary Search" Elizabeth. You can't add to something that does not exist. Why not just state it plainly so that no one is confused? The way you phrase it, it's as if something could be added to an evolutionary search, just not active information.
... the Active Information is simply the increased probability of solving a problem if you have some sort of feedback for each attempt, and partial solutions are moderately similar to better ones.
LoL! Sounds like evolution to me! Notice how Elizabeth leaves herself an escape hatch.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
05:57 PM
5
05
57
PM
PDT
EL, They’ve over-thought the problem and come to a conclusion that appears mathematically valid, but actually makes no sense. I say, I find it quite telling that our materialist friends have taken the "Math is for geeks" approach to these issues. We see it with Dembski Marks and Ewert. We see it with Phil Maguire and even with Godel. Don't ever forget the math is on our side and the nerds always win in the end. peacefifthmonarchyman
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
05:46 PM
5
05
46
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle @ TSZ:
Evolution is not a search for anything, and information is not the same as [im]probability, whether you take log2 of it or not.
We'd really like to believe that Elizabeth has seen the light, but given her past performances it's just not likely. This is a typical straw-man argument. She never identifies who has claimed that evolution is a search nor does she identify who has claimed that information is the same as [im]probability. She provides no quotes or references. She's preaching to the choir. A gaggle of sycophantic fanboys who dare not dispute her ignorant rantings lest they be excommunicated from the ranks of the faithful. And then there's the inevitable self-contradiction. The burqa that covers the faithful. Just how many times here at UD has Elizabeth equated information with Shannon's measure of information? Anyone?Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
05:45 PM
5
05
45
PM
PDT
Elizabeth:
They’ve over-thought the problem and come to a conclusion that appears mathematically valid, but actually makes no sense.
Mathematical proofs often make no sense and that's why we ignore them. I'm with Elizabeth on this one!Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
05:28 PM
5
05
28
PM
PDT
Meanwhile, Salvador feels more at home at TSZ:
Piotr, our esteemed associate, is a linguist. I admire the discipline of linguistics on many levels and some of my professional work has been in formal languages (computer languages, DNA languages).
Go for it Sal!Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
05:24 PM
5
05
24
PM
PDT
5th, the connexion is there at the outset, it takes specification + complexity to get an independently describable zone T in W that is beyond reasonable reach of blind, needle in haystack search. For relevant cases the specification is functional. If you look at the Marks, Dembsky et al papers, early on they speak to blind needle in haystack search. That's what I pointed out within the 1st 2 dozen comments and refusal to face this is one of the strawman tactic points we are dealing with. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:52 PM
4
04
52
PM
PDT
Mung, You know the joke in all this? Watch the default logic. First, an aspect of an event, object, phenomenon etc is expected to reflect mechanically necessary order. Default no 1. Broken if under closely similar initial conditions, quite divergent outcomes may occur. High contingency. Second default: chance variability accounts for high contingency aspects. Willingly accepted, is a possible misattribution to chance leading to some sort of stochastically distributed range of outcomes. Broken if, per a trillion item observational base, chance is overwhelmingly unlikely to achieve certain patterns reliably correlated with intelligently directed configuration. Such as, FSCO/I. So in fact THERE IS A DEFAULT, DR WATSON. Chance, not design. This has been pointed out ever so many times and discussed that the insistence on falsely asserting design to be a default has to be willful. Sad, but that is the level of talking point we are dealing with. The answer to this is simple -- used to be tried but after dozens of failures, the antics with semantics we now see more and more were resorted to. I guess about 4 years back. What is it: simple, meet the vera causa test if you want to break the inference to design on high contingency and specificity-complexity: show a counter example that has chance [or whatever other factor one can come up with] generating FSCO/I on a reasonable basis. Of course the many attempts we used to see foundered on being as a rule implicitly based on design. Unsurprising. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:47 PM
4
04
47
PM
PDT
Winston Ewert at EN&V says, The target is effectively the measuring stick. The choice of target is arbitrary I say, This is fascinating to me. Do folks here agree with me that "Target" is effectively synonymous with "specification". If so this would reveal a connection between CSI and active information. peace peacefifthmonarchyman
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:43 PM
4
04
43
PM
PDT
Joe: So the immune system doesn’t detect and then target invading substances? Not if you're an evolutionist. But maybe the immune system is not an evolutionary process. Maybe it's designed. There's always that. The immune system is fascinating. There's not much of a reason for it to exist if it has no purpose. It's not there to keep you alive, Joe, it's just there to enhance your reproductive success. Never forget that.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:32 PM
4
04
32
PM
PDT
Quoting Upright BiPed's comment reminded me, lol.
The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes.
ok, so all other possible causes have been eliminated. And that leaves? The unthinkable. The forbidden. The impossible. It's not the logic that is the problem here, it is the illogical. Only in internet debating forums would eliminating all other possible causes be considered a weakness of the method. God help us if these people ever gain the power of the gun. When you have eliminated the possible alternatives, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Apologies to SH.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:25 PM
4
04
25
PM
PDT
You’re wrong to think that the immune system is “targeted”.
So the immune system doesn't detect and then target invading substances? Really? Mung has your number...Joe
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:22 PM
4
04
22
PM
PDT
Aurelio Smith: You’re wrong to think that the immune system is “targeted”. Just for the record, since some people can't be trusted to have total recall: Aurelio Smith:
Can I ask, if you think evolutionary processes are a search, who is doing the looking and what are they searching for?
My response:
You claim that evolution is not a search. Now you’ve expanded that to include all evolutionary processes? Could you be more specific? What constitutes an evolutionary process? How about the immune system. Does the immune system use an evolutionary process?
So I never said the immune system is targeted. Aurelio changed horses in midstream and went from claiming that evolution is not a search to issuing a challenge about evolutionary processes. When asked to clarify his remarks, he didn't. When asked if the immune system was an evolutionary process, he had nothing to say. So we're still waiting. Nothing's changed. It's pretty pointless to get into a debate about the immune system and targets if Aurelio can't even say if it meets his definition of an evolutionary process and say why it meets his definition.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
04:16 PM
4
04
16
PM
PDT
UB has a point. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
03:38 PM
3
03
38
PM
PDT
There can be no other explanation. So it has to be design.
Aurelio is trolling. No surprise there. Nowhere does Ewert make the claim attributed to him by Aurelio. In fact, this brings to mind the following from Upright BiPed:
Smith, I read your OP to the point you stated: The weakness in this method is that ‘design’ is assumed as the default after eliminating all other possible causes. …and I knew there was no reason to involve myself further.
Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
03:33 PM
3
03
33
PM
PDT
Aurelio Smith asserted that there were no targets in evolutionary processes and asked me to provide evidence to the contrary. I offered the immune system. I'm still waiting for a response Aurelio.Mung
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
03:26 PM
3
03
26
PM
PDT
AS, sorry, but you are again setting up and knocking over already corrected strawmen. Birds, insects etc all exhibit FSCO/I in diverse ways connected with flight. They are highly contingent, complex and extremely functionally specific. With much associated information. On contingency, mechanical necessity does not explain the configs. On specificity plus complexity, chance is not a good explanation given the needle in haystack challenge. The only empirically warranted causal factor known to cause FSCO/I and passing the needle in haystack test is design. and if you want to pull the but they reproduce talking point, that too needs to be accounted for as rooted in FSCO/I. As Paley put on the table over 200 years ago. I suggest you take a look at 545 above: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/signal-to-noise-a-critical-analysis-of-active-information/#comment-561852 then onwards at 304:https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/signal-to-noise-a-critical-analysis-of-active-information/#comment-561159 and then scroll down to 313. Repeating strawman arguments and outright false assertions in the face of easily accessible corrective information is less than acceptable. KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
03:09 PM
3
03
09
PM
PDT
Aurelio, You are confused, as usual. Yours cannot explain birds, nor insects. Get a grip and buy a vowel. Given starting populations of prokaryotes yours doesn't have a mechanism capable of getting beyond populations of prokaryotes. And you had to be given starting populations of prokaryotes because yours can't even explain basic biological reproduction.Joe
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
03:08 PM
3
03
08
PM
PDT
Bob O'H: Dice rolling or the equivalent is often used in search type processes. Particularly when you want or are modelling a blind, random element. H'mm isn't that used in part in immune system responses to try to catch a solution to some new infection? KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PDT
Joe, I am being forced into agreeing with you that there is a serious ideological agenda problem. One that uncomfortably echoes my dealings with the Marxists years ago. I suspect many of these have not got a clue the kind of matches they are playing with or how suddenly a fire they set can flash over into a devastating fire storm. I have been there, had to live through a mini civil war. Saw agit-prop up close and personal, especially when I heard a glib spokeswoman excuse herself in inciting what triggered murder of an aunt. Saw how decades later people are all but impossible to extract from the propaganda stories of an awful time. Saw it again in miniature on my uni campus with some of the same characters in action. I can never forget that incident of the student dragged out of a meeting by the ear after blurting out what should have woken people up. But, they would not listen, they were too wound up in a net of agit-prop fed hysteria. And it came to a head that awful day in Papine that could have spun out of control into something far, far worse than a teargas charge following a full auto volley of blanks. (I should mention, teargas grenades were fired INTO the crowd, never mind the clear labels not to do so. Yes, some were collected by students.) Don't ever underestimate situations that flash over into riotous assemblies and hysteria fueled mob rule. I think I need to put up a warning on the dangers of indoctrination:
CLOSED-MINDEDNESS*: Stubbornly irrational, question-begging resistance to correction and/or alternative views. (Cf. a typical turnabout accusation on this, here.) This fallacy manifests itself in a habitual pattern of thought, feelings and argument that is: (a) question-beggingly committed to and/or (b) indoctrinated into thinking in the circle of a particular view or position and/or (c) blindly adherent to "the consensus" or vision and school of thought or paradigm of a particular set of authorities. [NB*: This last includes today's new Magisterium: "Science."] As a result, (d) the victim of closed-mindedness becomes unwarrantedly (i.e. fallaciously and often abusively) resistant to new or alternative ideas, information or correction. (NB: Cf. discussions on belief, knowledge, warrant and justification here, here [an excellent introductory lecture note], here, here, here, here and here [technical].) That is, it is not a matter of mere disagreement that is at stake here, but of (e) stubborn and objectively unjustified refusal to be corrected or to entertain or fairly discuss on the merits ideas or points of view outside of a favoured circle of thought. In extreme cases, (f) the closed minded person who has access to power or influence may engage in the willfully deceptive (and even demonic) practice of actively suppressing the inconvenient truth that s/he knows or should know. (By contrast, a properly educated person is open-minded but critically aware: s/he is aware of the possibility and prevalence of error, and so (i) habitually investigates and then (ii) accurately, objectively and fairly describes major alternative views, fact claims and lines of argument on a topic, (iii) comparing them on congruence to his/her real-world experience and that of others s/he knows and respects, general factual correctness, logical coherence and degree of explanatory power; thus (iv) holds a personal view that results from such a process of comparative difficulties, while (v) recognising and respecting that on major matters of debate or controversy, different people will hold different views.)
KFkairosfocus
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
01:26 PM
1
01
26
PM
PDT
Mung @553 - that still leaves a lot, i.e. anything which isn't totally deterministic. it also means rolling a die is, according to Ewert's definition, a search. I think he's stretching the definition a bit far.Bob O'H
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
kairosfocus, Surely you jest. If you think Elizabeth can be reasonable you must be joking. If you think any of our opponents wants a rational and well-reasoned discussion you are kidding yourself. Their purpose is to obfuscate, not educate.Joe
April 29, 2015
April
04
Apr
29
29
2015
01:05 PM
1
01
05
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 20

Leave a Reply