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The hole of the SLoT

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Definition of the 2nd law of thermodynamics (SLoT).

This law (in its statistical mechanics sense) states that an isolated system goes towards its more probable states (those more numerous). Since the disordered states are countless, while the ordered/organized ones are few, a closed system spontaneously goes towards disorder/disorganization (related to entropy).

Difference between order and organization.

Increase of order implies decrease of entropy. Examples of order in nature are crystals; soap bubbles and raindrops are examples of naturally ordered quasi-spheres. Examples of order in human artefacts are the pattern of wood in a fence and the configuration of seats in a cinema.
Organization also implies persistent decrease of entropy, but is far more and far higher than order. Organization is qualitatively different from order. Organization always involves functional hierarchies and complex specified information (CSI). Examples of organization in nature are cells and organisms. Examples of organization in human technology are engines and computers.

A key point: the relation between organization and entropy is non symmetrical. (Intuitive example of non symmetrical relation: rain implies decrease of dryness, but decrease of dryness does not imply rain – decrease of dryness may well have other causes.) While organization implies persistent decrease of entropy, a decrease of entropy alone does not imply organization. Put differently: while entropy destroys organization, its opposite – neghentropy – doesn’t create organization. While it is true that what decreases order destroys also organization, it is false that what increases order creates also organization.

By increasing order we don’t get organization, like by increasing numbers we don’t get elephants or spaceships, like by increasing a rectangle we don’t get a circle or a fractal. Organization is not at all the limit which order tends to. Between increasing order and organization there is a deep discontinuity, a “hole”.

Graphical representation of the 2nd law.

See this picture:

close

Where the organized state (red zone) is one, the ordered states (yellow zone) are some and the disordered states (green zone) are countless. Since the disordered states are far more numerous than the other states they are more probable (leading to the continue tendency for disorder stated by the 2nd law). In the picture the 2nd law tendency is symbolized by the gravity force applied to the red ball. The red ball always tends towards the bottom, towards the disordered states. The discontinuity between organization and order – the “hole” – is represented by the tunnel between the red zone and the yellow zone. The ball never reaches the red zone of organization because, also if it climbs the mountain, it falls in the hole and crosses the tunnel.

Biological unguided evolution.

Evolution supposes that all the biological organization on Earth arose spontaneously (naturalistic origin of life + naturalistic origin of species).

Corollary of the 2nd law.

In an isolated system, organization never increases spontaneously. Hence the 2nd law refutes evolution. The absurdity of evolution is illustrated in the following picture:

evo

Evolution would involve countless scenarios where the red balls stay permanently on the top of the peaks. Consequently the 2nd law disproves evolution because evolution would represent a set of events practically impossible.

Evolutionist “compensation argument”.

To rebut the above corollary, usually evolutionists resort to this argument. Since the Earth is not isolated, the 2nd law does not forbid a local (on Earth) decreases in entropy (which is all biological organisms represent, and no more than evolution is posited to do), gained at the cost of increased entropy in the surroundings (the solar system) (or, as long as the system exports a sufficient amount of entropy to its surroundings). So evolution can happen on Earth.

Refutation of the “compensation argument”.

The main counter-point is that, no, decrease in entropy is not “all biological organisms represent”. Organisms eminently represent organization. They are even ultra-complex systems. As said above, simple decrease in entropy is not organization. Evolutionists use “entropy” as a “free lunch” for evolution: entropy increases there, so entropy decrease here and organisms arise here at zero cost, while the 2nd law is safe. Too good to be true. Since entropy is related to disorder, then I cause a big mess (easy task) there to get organization (difficult task) here? Do you see the nonsense?

Second, call A the open system and B its surroundings. “Increased entropy in the surroundings” means that B has increased its disorder, going towards a more disordered state. This additional disorder in B becomes (in the mind of evolutionists) sort of “money” to pay the organization in A. Just this concept appears paradoxical: to pay organization by means of disorder. It is like to say: a disease in my wife 🙁 increases my health :).

Third, the reasoning is also absurd when we speak of probability. “Increased entropy in the surroundings” means that in B happened events more probable than the events happened before. These more probable events become (in the mind of evolutionists) sort of “magic” that creates organization in A. In turn, this organization in A is events with low probability that happen. So the whole reasoning is: probable events happened in B cause improbable events in A. It is like to say: the shopping expenses of my wife 🙁 cause my winning the lottery :).

In short, the evolutionist “compensation argument” is something like “non-X causes X”. It helps exactly zero the case for evolution, and doesn’t save evolution against the 2nd law.

The bottom line is: improbable events related to organization in a system remain improbable independently from the fact that we consider the system closed or open. Unless evolutionists are able to prove that some external cause is really able to reduce somehow such improbabilities, by injecting CSI to create organization. So far evolutionists have not succeeded in such task, their “compensation argument” is laughable. While IDers have a name for an organizational cause: intelligence.

Comments
DiEb, although I don't know exactly what you are talking about in regards to Cantor, do you hold Cantor to be infallible in his work? Such as perhaps you hold your own atheistic philosophy to be infallible???,,, Even Einstein was shown to be wrong on denying the Beginning of the Universe (i.e. his fudge factor) as well as to be wrong on his insistence of using hidden variables to try to 'explain away' the quantum non-locality of quantum entanglement. Now since you hold Darwinism to be unquestionably true without any empirical support it would be interesting to know exactly where do you find Cantor infallible and another delusional for thinking Cantor's work missed a mark. Please do share this point.bornagain77
July 8, 2013
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DiEB is proud to be an ignorant, and cowardly ass. Therefor, without an e at the end, is an accepted spelling of the word. And Joe F is clueless. It is very telling that DiEB has try a distraction rather than address what I posted.Joe
July 8, 2013
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Therefor [sic] there isn’t any violation, just your ignorance. That's from the man who states so proudly: "I disagree with Cantor and I have explained why he is wrong."DiEb
July 8, 2013
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Strange- Joe Felsenstein seems to think that we are saying that the 2LoT prevents plants/ trees from growing. Earth to Joe F- DESIGN- plants/ trees are designed to grow from seeds given the proper conditions. Therefor there isn't any violation, just your ignorance.Joe
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle #31
"I agree that intelligent human designers increase in entropy when they design and make organised things, and thus do not violate the 2nd Law. So where is the corresponding decrease in entropy when the postulated non-human intelligent designer designs and makes things? What does the work (the moving of stuff)? Or are you claiming that non-human Intelligence can do work without decreasing in entropy?"
Obviously, when the design is the cosmos as a whole, the entire issue has to be aptly frame-worked according to traditional metaphysics. The Designer of the cosmos overarches it and all its laws. The LawGiver cannot be constrained by the laws he stated! But we risk to go off-topic...niwrad
July 8, 2013
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Mark:
As Lizzie says the argument that evolution cannot produce organisation is just the classic ID argument based on information.
The argument refers to blind watchmaker evolution. It does not refer to intelligent design evolution. And the argument could be refuted if someone could just find some evidence to refute it. However here we are in the 21st century and no such evidence has been found.Joe
July 8, 2013
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You maintain the second law has nothing to do with evolution. You know I disagree. Explain me please as a general law describing how physical systems evolve has nothing to do with evolution.
I meant that it has nothing to do with the argument over whether evolution as proposed can or can't occur. What is proposed is not a violation of the 2nd Law.
Any designer (also a human one) never violates the 2nd law. The 2nd law states how systems work when no intelligence is involved. So there is no conflict whatsoever. Intelligence is an information source, whose existence the 2nd law per se doesn’t absolutely deny.
I agree that intelligent human designers increase in entropy when they design and make organised things, and thus do not violate the 2nd Law. So where is the corresponding decrease in entropy when the postulated non-human intelligent designer designs and makes things? What does the work (the moving of stuff)? Or are you claiming that non-human Intelligence can do work without decreasing in entropy?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle #28 You maintain the second law has nothing to do with evolution. You know I disagree. Explain me please as a general law describing how physical systems evolve has nothing to do with evolution. In addition you even reverse the accusation on our shoulders by saying:
"In contrast, the Designer hypothesis does posit a 2nd Law suspending system – a designer who can do work (make matter move) and yet apparently not suffer any entropy decrease."
Shameless :) Any designer (also a human one) never violates the 2nd law. The 2nd law states how systems work when no intelligence is involved. So there is no conflict whatsoever. Intelligence is an information source, whose existence the 2nd law per se doesn't absolutely deny. Mark Frank #29
"All that the compensation argument was ever meant to address was the argument that evolution cannot produce increase order."
Differently, I think the compensation argument is argued to prove that organization can arise as long as the system Earth exports entropy to its surroundings. I explained why it doesn't work.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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niwrad #27 All that the compensation argument was ever meant to address was the argument that evolution cannot produce increase order. I guess you agree that is false. It can. As Lizzie says the argument that evolution cannot produce organisation is just the classic ID argument based on information. I am sure this is also fallacious but anyhow it is completely different and nothing to do with the second law except in the sense that organisation requires order - but we just accepted that is no barrier to evolution.Mark Frank
July 8, 2013
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OK I think I get it :) As I’ve said, I think the second law has nothing to do with this at all. That’s been a red herring all along, which is a shame. But the reason it got dragged in is because, as niwrad points out, while not all low entropy things are “organised” all “organised” things have low entropy, therefore, if entropy can’t increase, nor can things become organised. The evolutionists’ first response to this argument was to say: but entropy can increase! The 2nd law just says that in a closed system entropy is always increasing, it doesn’t say that there can’t be local decreases in entropy in an open, it just says that this is always compensated for by an increase in the entropy of the whole system. To which Granville and niwrad respond: but this argument doesn’t help! Just because something is increasing in entropy somewhere else, doesn’t mean that entropy can decrease here! You have to tell us how the sun, say, decreasing in entropy helps organisms assemble themselves and people build jumbo jets here on earth! So you have to explain how natural selection, of all the known natural forces, is the one that can overcome the 2nd Law of thermodynamics! To which the evolutionists respond: no, of course evolution doesn’t violate the 2nd Law, any more than a tree does, or a tornado does! To which Granville et al respond: but tornados are destructive, they don’t have CSI, they aren’t organised To which the evolutionists respond: but that’s got nothing to do with the 2nd Law of thermodynamics! And so we go round and round…. As usual, neither side, in my view, has understood the other. But I think I get it now. Granville is correct inasmuch as it is not an adequate answer to the question: how does evolution work, using only natural forces? to say: evolution happened because entropy can decrease if the system is open. It is an adequate answer to the objection that evolution can’t happen because it would violate the 2nd Law, but it isn’t an adequate answer to the question: how does evolution work, using only natural forces? We have been giving a perfectly adequate answer to the 2nd Law objection to evolution, while Granville and others insist that it is not an adequate answer to the question about how it works. And not only does the 2nd Law of thermodynamics simply have nothing to do with that question , but every time it is brought up, it brings down the answer to a question about the 2nd Law, when the real question is about how evolution is supposed to work! And this is worsened by the fact that many IDers (and occasionally others) seem to think that the argument for a natural (fundamental-forces only) explanation of life depends on terribly improbable things happening, and that that’s why “atheists” are so desperate to postulate multiverses. I’d say the vast majority of “evolutionists” don’t think evolution is improbable – that it’s not that we think improbable things can happen, it’s that we think that things can happen that render otherwise improbable things much less improbable (like tornadoes, which would be extremely improbable on a cold dark earth). What those things are, are the physics and chemistry of molecules, coupled with the feedback system known as “natural selection” which is just a shorthand for molecules and assemblies of molecules self-replicating with heritable variance in reproductive success, probably aided at least in the early days, by convection currents and temperature gradients in a fluid. Of course nobody knows the answer, and it’s possible that there IS no natural system in which such a decrease in entropy could occur locally in such a way as to kick start proto-life and evolution, but there’s no reason in principle why there shouldn’t be – i.e. why, in principle, conditions could not exist where such things became perfectly possible, even probable. Which are the conditions that OoL researchers, for example, are trying to find. In contrast, the Designer hypothesis does posit a 2nd Law suspending system – a designer who can do work (make matter move) and yet apparently not suffer any entropy decrease. And the libertarian free will argument suffers from a similar problem.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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Mark Frank It seems to me that we agree on (A) and (B).
I cannot see that you have either refuted the compensation argument or shown it to be relevant.
What I tried to explain in simple words - my English doesn't allow me complex words :( - is the "compensation" or "open system" argument moves entropy/disorder, but is not weighty about organization (so doesn't save evolution). Prof. Sewell can speak for himself, but according what I read in his papers, he says - of course far more authoritatively than me - essentially the same thing.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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Mr Fox, it depends on how you want to measure complexity, genome size trumps your cited papers thesis as well as this: Dr. Behe, on the important Table 7.1 on page 143 of Edge Of Evolution, finds that a typical cell might have some 10,000 protein-binding sites. Whereas a conservative estimate for protein-protein binding sites in a multicellular creature is,,, Largest-Ever Map of Plant Protein Interactions - July 2011 Excerpt: The new map of 6,205 protein partnerings represents only about two percent of the full protein- protein "interactome" for Arabidopsis, since the screening test covered only a third of all Arabidopsis proteins, and wasn't sensitive enough to detect many weaker protein interactions. "There will be larger maps after this one," says Ecker. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110728144936.htm So taking into account that they only covered 2%, of the full protein-protein "interactome", then that gives us a number, for different protein-protein interactions, of 310,000. Thus, from my very rough 'back of the envelope' calculations, we find that this is at least 30 times higher than Dr. Behe's estimate of 10,000 different protein-protein binding sites for a typical single cell (Page 143; Edge of Evolution; Behe). Therefore, at least at first glance from my rough calculations, it certainly appears to be a impossible step that evolution cannot make, by purely unguided processes, to go from a single cell to a multi-cellular creature. Moreover Mr Fox, you have no evidence that such a dramatic increase in binding site complexity from single cell creatures to multi-cellular creatures can be attained by your beloved Darwinian processes: "The likelihood of developing two binding sites in a protein complex would be the square of the probability of developing one: a double CCC (chloroquine complexity cluster), 10^20 times 10^20, which is 10^40. There have likely been fewer than 10^40 cells in the entire world in the past 4 billion years, so the odds are against a single event of this variety (just 2 binding sites being generated by accident) in the history of life. It is biologically unreasonable." Michael J. Behe PhD. (from page 146 of his book "Edge of Evolution")bornagain77
July 8, 2013
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And STILL no evidence tat blind watchmaker evolution can account for the diversity of life.Joe
July 8, 2013
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Mark Frank, if it helps, I can show you the premise and conclusion of your argument against Slot making Darwinian evolution extremely improbable: Darwinism Not Proved Impossible Therefore Its True - Plantinga http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716/bornagain77
July 8, 2013
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Dan Mcshea on complexity: A COMPLEXITY DRAIN ON CELLS IN THE EVOLUTION OF MULTICELLULARITYAlan Fox
July 8, 2013
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niwrad
Prof. Sewell and many IDers/creationists think that SLoT and evolution cannot be both true.
I know they think that. But I cannot follow your argument as to why this is so. A picture is very useful but in the end a valid argument needs to have some premisses, logic and conclusions. If I have summarised your argument incorrectly in #19 just tell me where I have gone wrong. It is quite short.Mark Frank
July 8, 2013
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Rayleigh-Bénard convection?Alan Fox
July 8, 2013
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Mark Frank I provided 2 pictures. Almost, if you look at these pictures you need no words. Neither Prof. Sewell nor I deny that the red ball can move, that entropy can vary, that trivial order can appear in some specified circumstances. The question is not if "order can increase through evolution", rather if the SLoT is consistent with spontaneous organization (=evolution). Prof. Sewell and many IDers/creationists think that SLoT and evolution cannot be both true. And, with all due respect, the former gives more grants to be true.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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niwrad I am struggling with your argument. I will try to summarise it as I understand it. Your key proposal seems to be (A) a high level of order (low entropy) is necessary (but not sufficient) for the organisation required for life. That seems like a reasonable assumption so let's go with it. I hope we all accept that according to the 2nd law (B) order can increase locally through compensation i.e. by decreasing it elsewhere. Granville's argument seems to be that entropy cannot decrease through evolution. Assuming he means order can cannot increase - it follows by (A) organisation cannot increase through evolution. However, (B) suggest that order can increase through evolution provided it takes place locally and therefore Granville's objection is refuted. I cannot see that you have either refuted the compensation argument or shown it to be relevant. An interesting related question for Granville is if evolution cannot increase order locally (which of course I don't accept) what kind of process could increase it without breaking the 2nd law?Mark Frank
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
" We may be wrong - "
Ah, an honest remark from the intelligent Lady... :)niwrad
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
"Order can increase without violation of the 2nd Law. Why can’t organisation?"
Because of the "hole". I wrote this post for describing the "hole". Organization cannot increase, as order does, because the hole blocks the red ball (see the picture please). If you admit that organization is essentially different from order you admit the hole. And, admitting the hole, the compensation sinks.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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niwrad
but are indeed you, evolutionists, who want to make the “compensation argument” work for organization! Are not us! The problem is indeed that your “compensation” should create organization. We have no problem with compensation of entropy, order or whatever. We have problems with a compensation that creates organization from thin air, while it cannot.
This makes no sense, niwrad. If the 2nd Law has nothing to do with organisation, then no "compensation" argument is required. As I keep saying, both yours and Granville's argument boils down to the same as Dembski's: that "organised" things are really really improbable, therefore they are really really improbable, given the number of possible opportunities for them to occur in the lifetime of the universe. But they are only "really really improbable" if you are assuming that they happened by "random chance". "Evolutionists" to not propose that they happened by "random chance". They propose that they happened by some set of conditions that made them really quite probable. And none of those conditions (chemistry, physics) are themselves particularly improbable. We may be wrong - but you can't just assert, a priori, that there is no way this stuff could have happened. There are potentially lots of non 2LoT-violating things that could have happened, including work done and local decreases in entropy, that might have made life probable - or not terribly improbable. The 2nd Law argument just doesn't work (nor does CSI, for that matter, but at least Dembski doesn't invoke the 2nd Law). ButElizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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keiths:
Brits and the Europeans
Brits ARE Europeans! At least until the next referendum...Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle
"the “compensation argument” works perfectly well for “order”".
but are indeed you, evolutionists, who want to make the “compensation argument” work for organization! Are not us! The problem is indeed that your "compensation" should create organization. We have no problem with compensation of entropy, order or whatever. We have problems with a compensation that creates organization from thin air, while it cannot.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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Of note as to how tightly constrained light is: Fine Tuning Of Light to the Atmosphere, to Biological Life, and to Water - graphs http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMTljaGh4MmdnOQbornagain77
July 8, 2013
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niwrad:
I wrote: “what decreases order destroys also organization”. So the SLoT spontaneous trend towards disorder disagrees with evolution, which pretends to spontaneously create organization.
But the 2nd Law doesn't tell us that there is always a trend towards disorder within a local system. You simply haven't countered the "compensation" argument at all. "Compensation" is not simply some magic whereby if some remote star is increasing in entropy, spaceships can form on earth. It just means that entropy in one system can decrease if work is done on it by a neighbouring system. And because that neighbouring system will experience an increase in entropy (because that's what happens when a system does work) then the increase in one "compensates" for the decrease in the other (more than compensates normally, which is why the total entropy still increases).
So to speak, the parallelism between order and organization “works” only on the destructive side, not the constructive one.
You haven't shown that at all. Order can increase without violation of the 2nd Law. Why can't organisation?Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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niwrad and others, an interesting sidenote in the atheist's claim that a increase in entropy from the sun can lead to a decrease in the entropy of life on earth is that DNA is optimized to prevent damage from light:
DNA Optimized for Photostability Excerpt: These nucleobases maximally absorb UV-radiation at the same wavelengths that are most effectively shielded by ozone. Moreover, the chemical structures of the nucleobases of DNA allow the UV-radiation to be efficiently radiated away after it has been absorbed, restricting the opportunity for damage. http://www.reasons.org/dna-soaks-suns-rays
i.e. if radiation from the sun were really driving the decrease in entropy then why in blue blazes is the optimized photostability in place for DNA to prevent the incoming energy from the sun from having any effect??? ,,, It is yet another sheer disconnect between empirical evidence and what Darwinists claim for reality that they will never really honestly address.bornagain77
July 8, 2013
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with the compensation argument, niwrad. It is perfectly possible for entropy to decrease in a system if work is done on it by a neighbouring system, which will, as a result, experience an increase in entropy. This is what is meant by "compensation" and it not only works, if it didn't, as I point out in the other thread, tornadoes themselves would be impossible! But now you've defined a different concept, "organisation" which seems to be another word for "CSI", and are somehow trying to say that "compensation" doesn't work for that (I hope you agree that "compensation" works fine for good old ordinary entropy, which what the 2nd Law is about". Entropy and CSI/organisation are not the same thing as you yourself agree. So why would a Law about entropy have anything to say about CSI?
Prof. Sewell doesn’t say that evolution DOES violate the SLoT. The SLoT is never violated. He says (like me) that evolution never occurred indeed because it WOULD have violated the SLoT.
Yes, I know. And he is incorrect, because he, like you, is using "entropy" to mean something other than the meaning it has in the context of the 2nd Law, which is "order" not "organisation" as you have defined it. And the "compensation argument" works perfectly well for "order".Elizabeth B Liddle
July 8, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist I wrote: "what decreases order destroys also organization". So the SLoT spontaneous trend towards disorder disagrees with evolution, which pretends to spontaneously create organization. So to speak, the parallelism between order and organization "works" only on the destructive side, not the constructive one.niwrad
July 8, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle my notes refute the "compensation argument". As such they agree with Prof. Sewell's argument. So please do not try to divide Prof. Sewell and me. It's an impossible task, believe me. It is the evolutionist "compensation argument" that deals with entropy AND organization, by saying that the latter simply comes from a decrease of the former, while this is impossible. I am glad that you finally acknowledge that organization is more than order (your intelligence matters after all...). But, to be coherent, now you should also acknowledge that the "compensation argument" fails. Prof. Sewell doesn't say that evolution DOES violate the SLoT. The SLoT is never violated. He says (like me) that evolution never occurred indeed because it WOULD have violated the SLoT. Evolution doesn't pay you after all. So why to stay on the side of deception?niwrad
July 8, 2013
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