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The Peppered Zombie rises at Exeter: Some curious responses

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Peppered moth
Researchers created artificial moths to test camouflage

A story here yesterday noted the recent attempt at Exeter U to resurrect the idea that the varying prevalence of light and dark moths is a dramatic demonstration of evolution in action. Like its many predecessors, it demonstrates nothing except what we might expect: The more visible moth will be spotted and eaten sooner.

But it’s the understory that matters: Schoolchildren are asked to believe that, by the same power of natural selection, cows become whales over time. Not only is the implicit claim not demonstrated by the data from nature; it isn’t even implied by the data from nature. The variable population distribution mechanism already existed in the moths’ genes, perhaps for millions of years, and did not change over time. The output of the mechanism, consistent with its function, is observed to change with regional conditions. The change provides no obvious basis for more complex developments.

That is why Darwinism must be taught to the young and impressionable, preferably by people who cannot afford to doubt the system that affords them a social status and a living.

Now look at some of the attempts here yesterday to defend the peppered myth:

2. But that is evolution. Perhaps not impressive in the grand scheme of things, but it’s still evolution (by natural selection, no less).

If so, then we have here a demonstration that evolution by natural selection produces insignificant changes. If that fact, advertised, justifies the fanfare heard at Exeter, top figures in evolutionary biology are clearly and obviously wrong to attribute significant changes to the Darwinian mechaism of natural selection acting on random mutations.

8. [quoting the OP] “The controversy was over whether the shifting proportions can properly be called a form of “evolution.” Most people reasonably expect ‘evolution’ to produce significant and probably irreversible changes, for example, turning dinosaurs into birds.”

If this is true, then most people ought to learn what evolution means. Also, the evolution of non-bird dinosaurs into birds took a bit longer than the few decades it took for peppered moths to arise and dominate the population.

“What evolution means,” it would seem from the commenter’s defense, is insignificant changes that are postulated to lead to significant ones. Not demonstrated, merely postulated. There is a world of difference between the two states of evidence.

The second sentence illustrates that beautifully: “Also, the evolution of non-bird dinosaurs into birds took a bit longer than the few decades it took for peppered moths to arise and dominate the population.” Actually, we have no reason to believe that such a complex transition happened in a Darwinian way at all, especially considering that the insignificant variation in moth wing colors is apparently the best type of evidence Darwinian theory can come up with.

Also at 8: They had to use fake moths because that’s the only way you could conceivably do a controlled experiment. But there is very strong evidence that natural selection drives the frequency of the different morphs, and indeed that moths spend plenty of time on tree trunks and branches during the day (http://rsbl.royalsocietypublis…..nt/8/4/609).

If the phenomenon is as common as the commenter claims, it is easy to conceive of a controlled experiment that does not require dead or fake test subjects.

“there is very strong evidence that natural selection drives the frequency of the different morphs”?* Of course.  No one doubts it. It’s the implicit claim that such processes account for much more complex changes (birds to dinosaurs) that is contested.

And the people who defend the uncontested claim surely have, as their purpose, a  defense of the contested implicit claim — because the uncontested claim is, as we might expect, nothing in itself. The dodgy parts are no worse than those most so many Darwinian claims.

Most Darwinian believers, so far as we can see, do not require their claims to be sound. They require only that they be enforced and that alternatives be silenced. Thus do obscure school systems in the United States make the pages of Nature.
.
Clearly, if it were not for the hold that Darwinism has on the minds of some, this zombie would not stalk the storied groves of Exeter. We are looking at a social phenomenon here, to which the science is incidental.

*As the OP relates, the evidence that moths naturally rest in positions where they are exposed to predators is contested within the discipline.

See also: Wow! The peppered myth: A Darwin zombie rises again The Exeter researchers report, “In the experiment using artificial moths, lighter models had a 21% higher chance of “surviving” (not being eaten by birds).” So their point seems to be that, if moths actually rested in open areas, they would be better off to be lighter models.

Comments
Well, if you had read the paper you'd know the models were placed precisely where the moths "rest in real life". So, I presume you just decided to launch into these posts without so much as reading the paper.Amblyrhynchus
August 22, 2018
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Ambly- If you have something to add then say it. Or just go away and hide your head in the sandET
August 22, 2018
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You haven't read the paper, have you?Amblyrhynchus
August 22, 2018
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Ambly, Clearly you are just an ignorant troll. I didn't make such an admission in #9. However you admitted that a controlled experiment doesn't represent reality. The part about the moth is a fact. My whole point is that cameras are useful to science. More useful than experiments that do not reflect reality. And putting moths in places they do not rest in real life means it is a BS test. So all you have achieved is to prove that you are cluelessET
August 22, 2018
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So , * In #9 you admit you can't do a controlled experiment with live moths * Two minutes later you say that again in a new comment * Five minutes later you add an unrelated (and untrue) factoid about another moth. * Then you came back 44 minutes later to say that a very fast camera exists and photography has been useful to science. I'm really not sure what you are trying to achieve with this. Plenty of observational studies, mark-recapture studies and the like have been done on this species. In some cases, the specific question requires a control experiment and it's only feasible to do that with models or dead insects.Amblyrhynchus
August 22, 2018
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For Ambly: World's fastest 2-D camera may enable new scientific discoveries Discover How Photography Led Scientific Breakthroughs in this Interactive MIT Exhibit Seriously, have you ever even left your basement?ET
August 22, 2018
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Darwin's predicted moth was first captured by camera.ET
August 22, 2018
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Which is more important: 1- Observing what really happens 2- A controlled experiment that doesn't reflect realityET
August 22, 2018
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Ambly:
I think the point was that you might need a bit more than “like, cameras and other tech.” to actually perform a well-controlled experiment.
My bad. I was talking about observing reality- ie what really happens. But I can see why you wouldn't want to do that. And you are the one posting ill-thought-out garbage. Clearly you have never conducted an investigation in your lifeET
August 22, 2018
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I think the point was that you might need a bit more than "like, cameras and other tech." to actually perform a well-controlled experiment. Or, even more directly, I'm trying to understand why you reflexively post just ill-thought-out garbage.Amblyrhynchus
August 22, 2018
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If they can't figure it out on their own why bother?ET
August 22, 2018
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Cameras and other technologies I am sure would do the trick
Write it up, submit to NSF BIO!Amblyrhynchus
August 22, 2018
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Ambly:
The reason you mistakenly think the peppered moth story is a “myth” is because you read Jonathan Wells’ idiotic book, in which he claims “.it is clear that the compelling evidence for natural selection that biologists once thought they had in peppered moths no longer exists”.
No one can show the variation was due to chance. Also no one debates that moths can evolve into the same type of moth albeit with different coloration
I don’t know any scientists who have claimed the peppered moth example is an “implicit” example of a major transformation like non-avian dinosaurs to birds.
There isn't any evidence nor any way to test the claim that non-avian dinosaurs evolved into birds. And evos ALWAYS use these slight examples to prop up macroevolution.
It’s very difficult to see how you could do this in a controlled fashion using live animals.
Cameras and other technologies I am sure would do the trick. Pinning dead moths on a place where they do not rest isn't going to tell you much about reality.ET
August 22, 2018
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"Curious" doesn't begin to describe this post...
“there is very strong evidence that natural selection drives the frequency of the different morphs”?* Of course.
No one doubts it
But of course they do. The reason you mistakenly think the peppered moth story is a "myth" is because you read Jonathan Wells' idiotic book, in which he claims ".it is clear that the compelling evidence for natural selection that biologists once thought they had in peppered moths no longer exists". Every time the peppered moths are discussed by creationists you get the same pattern. First they'll claim that the changes recorded are so trivial as to mean nothing and that all creationsts accept such changes are within the power of selection. Then you paragraph after paragraph of misinformed objections to the clear evidence that selection caused the changes. Almost as if creationists do have a problem with this example of natural selection... I don't know any scientists who have claimed the peppered moth example is an "implicit" example of a major transformation like non-avian dinosaurs to birds. It's just a nice example of natural selection (and not, say, some environmental response) rapidly adapting a species to its environment. Finally,
If the phenomenon is as common as the commenter claims, it is easy to conceive of a controlled experiment that does not require dead or fake test subjects.
Well, I'd like to know you could do this. Remember, the experiments are testing the hypothesis that birds preferentially predate on moths on a non-similar background. It's very difficult to see how you could do this in a controlled fashion using live animals. (Survival experiments and mark-recapture experiments maybe, but not controlled predation trials).Amblyrhynchus
August 22, 2018
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PaV, I'm not sure if I understand your question, but I would say that it’s an example of natural selection in action; whether I would say it’s an example of evolution depends on the context and definitions being used. I know there are different definitions of “evolution” out there - I don’t know what the definition “should” be, and in this case I don’t really care. It’s not that I don’t think semantic disputes can be interesting or important, as I often do find such disputes to be both, but IMO this isn’t one of them. I have no problem with someone saying that this is an example of natural selection, but not of evolution. Or of someone saying that’s it’s an example of evolution, but not evidence of evolution on larger scales (“macroevolution”), etc. If someone were to say that this example of natural selection proves that whales can come from cows I would disagree (although I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen such an argument put forward).goodusername
August 22, 2018
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goodusername: How would you define "evolution" in the case of the Peppered Moth population?PaV
August 22, 2018
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Like its many predecessors, it demonstrates nothing except what we might expect: The more visible moth will be spotted and eaten sooner. But it’s the understory that matters: Schoolchildren are asked to believe that, by the same power of natural selection, cows become whales over time.
At least you believe natural selection is a real phenomena. And I can at least understand being skeptical of the power of natural selection to be the primary factor of change beyond certain limits. What I can’t understand is dismissing natural selection as tautological. And I especially can’t understand - and what you so often do - is dismissing natural selection as tautological for large scale change, but then accept it for small scale change. How can the same phenomena be tautological at one scale and not another? I wonder if the authors of this study are familiar with this study from Majerus? https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1420-9101.2000.00170.x Previous experiments have shown that, from a bird’s eye view, that the lighter moths (typica) are better camouflaged against the lichen found on branches (crustose lichens) rather than the lichen found on tree trunks (foliose lichens).goodusername
August 22, 2018
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