BBC asks, why we are only humans still alive

The only thing that varies by degrees is the Darwin crowd's inconsistencies. Tiger and Lion same species. Andre

Andre: if a Tiger and a lion can make viable offspring then reproductive isolation is not met, hence the same species.. They are largely isolated, but regardless of where you draw the line between species, as this example shows, fertility varies by degree. Zachriel

Zach Here is the problem.. if a Tiger and a lion can make viable offspring then reproductive isolation is not met, hence the same species.. Andre

Thanks daveS! Awesome.... Virgil Cain

Virgil Cain, Even entire monographs on the species problem! daveS

Species problem? Yes: species problem- well just look all the articles about the species problem Virgil Cain

Yes they are the same species. They are cats

If you earlier statements force you to say something as stupid as this, then you might want to reconsider those statements. And, as Zach points out, this example does away with your earlier claim that fertility can't vary by degree. wd400

Andre: Yes they are the same species. They are cats. Lions and tigers have persistent and distinguishing characteristics. Biologists have long consider them to be separate species; named Panthera leo and Panthera tigris by Linnaeus in 1758. Whether one species or two, mating between a tiger and a lion is less likely to produce offspring than mating between two tigers, or two lions. Fertility varies by degree. Zachriel

WD400 Yes they are the same species. They are cats. Andre

When supposed sperate species make viable offspring they are not seperate species

Why do you think this is true? Why do you think there is a species problem at all when such an easy answer exists? And you really think lions and tigers, which occasionally produce fertile offspring, are the same species? wd400

It means and please do listen carefully..... The Darwinian idea of speciation and what species are is wrong. When supposed sperate species make viable offspring they are not seperate species. Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal is a very good example, they are the same thing. A single species. There is no such thing as a separate lineage from a common ancestor, there is no such thing as ring species between them either because there was no reproductive isolation (core to what a species is) In addition their reproductive systems match perfectly. Andre

You keep linking to these papers, but not explaining what you think they mean. I know about both of those papers, buy don't see how they relate to anything I've said.. wd400

WD400 Did you not get Coyne's latest memo? https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-are-no-ring-species/ What about Darwin's famouse finches that has now gone bust? http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/674899 I'll say it again; The average Darwinist troll ignores the species problem. It was all good and well you told me how its discussed but you seem to choose to ignore what it means. Andre

Fertility is not various by degree...

It's like you are going out of your way to say increasingly ignorant things in this thread. Fertility does indeed vary by degree, and what's more that degree to which two species are infertile is related to how long ago they diverged. Coyne and Orr famous study of Drosophila is one example of this [pdf]. And, as Zach noted, Darwin discusses this in The Origin. wd400

Fertility is not various by degree. You either have the goods on both ends to make viable offspring or you don't. Sexual organs and systems either communicate or they don't these systems can't encode and decode if it's not a perfect match. Zachriel time to stop being silly about this. Andre

ppolish: Speciation is s guided purposeful process You don't seem to be making an argument, but just stating a position. Note the difference between that, and how Darwin explained why fertility was various in degree — as a consequence of evolutionary divergence. It's a feature! Zachriel

"Populations diverge from common ancestors over time. Speciation is a process. See Darwin, Origin of Species, 1859." Speciation is s guided purposeful process, Zachriel. Darwin knew that too. He just underestimated the extent of the guidance and purpose. He wasn't very mathematical. He would be fascinated with modern evidence. Not surprised, but fascinated. ppolish

Andre: he thinks there is no such thing as a species problem There's a difference between a good scientist and a great scientist. Biologists had long been aware of the species problem. They have often argued about where to draw the line in various cases. Meanwhile, Darwin explained why interfertility varies by degree, and why there is not always a strict line to be drawn. Populations diverge from common ancestors over time. Speciation is a process. See Darwin, Origin of Species, 1859. Zachriel

Andre,

And WD400 and goodusername ignore the dead give away that reproductive isolation is not met between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. Thus and I emphasise this. They are the same species.

Ok. I have no strong feelings either way. It's mostly an argument of semantics. I've seen the scientific community lean one way and then the other over the years on the subject. I'm not sure which side most scientists are on the issue now, but I'm sure there'll be a lively debate on the issue for years to come. goodusername

If "no reproductive isolation -> not species" where true then there'd be no species problem. (Also, there would probably be about 100 plant species left). wd400

And WD400 and goodusername ignore the dead give away that reproductive isolation is not met between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. Thus and I emphasise this. They are the same species. Andre

Andre,

Come now. Let us get real here. The average Darwinist avoids the species problem like the black plague.

It’s one of the most discussed subjects in the field. Pick up any popular book on Darwinism, or take any class on evolution, and chances are it will be discussed at length.

It’s public record that as soon as they do that they will be confronted with the fact that Neanderthal is not a separate species to homo sapiens the very defenition of speciation for a Darwinist is the tired and false mantra of reproductive isolation.

Whether Neanderthals are a true separate species or not is also discussed ad nauseum. Read any story regarding Neanderthals, and the subject of whether they are a separate species or not is probably brought up. (Also, there are many definitions for "species". And biologists prior to Darwinism were far more inclined to call each variation they saw a "species" than they are today. Most scientists prior to 1859 were polygenists, believing that each human race was a species, and Darwin's leading opponent - Louis Agassiz - was also probably the most notorious "splitter" of all time.) goodusername

Andre. I can assure you a discussion of the "species problem" is a mainstay of intro to evolution courses and part of every intro text book I can think of. It's pretty evident reading back you just didn't understand what News was saying, there is no shame in making a mistake, but it's a bit silly to launch into a new attack with acknowledging it. I guess you'll have to explain to me why introgression of neanderthal genes into the sapiens lineage signals the "collapse" of "darwnism"? I strange claim since the possibility of such interbreeding has been a topic of debate within evolution since Feldhofer 1 was described. wd400

Any intro to evo course covering the origin and nature of the human species is pretty much outdated. Can't imagine an up to date textbook is even out there. I mean come on, there is plenty of confusion at the post doc level. "introductory course" lol WD400. ppolish

WD400 Come now. Let us get real here. The average Darwinist avoids the species problem like the black plague. It's public record that as soon as they do that they will be confronted with the fact that Neanderthal is not a separate species to homo sapiens the very defenition of speciation for a Darwinist is the tired and false mantra of reproductive isolation. Guess what sugar? Neanderthals and humans never meet that criteria, and because reproductive isolation is matter of fact not met and Neanderthals and homo sapiens on record have produced viable offspring, the Darwin just so story collapses. Andre

News,

Notice how the BBC story is carefully crafted to make humans sound like animals as if intelligence does not matter.

No. The story clearly implies that intelligence very much matters.

The serious discussion of what “separate species” means never happens because no Darwin follower can afford it.

The species problem has been one of the most discussed subjects in the field of evolution beginning with Origin of Species. goodusername

BBC asks, why we are only humans still alive

Maybe because we didn't share this secret: http://andyjwells.tumblr.com/post/130261802207/russian-scientist-claims-he-knows-the-secret-to Dionisio

What do you think these links prove? News thinks that evolutionary biologists don't discuss the species problem, you provide some links of ... evolutionary biologists discussing the species problem? wd400

And in typical WD400's spectacular ignorance, and his clear display of not being up to day with science he thinks there is no such thing as a species problem except...... 1929 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v124/n3127/abs/124514a0.html 1935 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v136/n3450/abs/136954b0.html Then in 2004 a false statement and a lie.... http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v124/n3127/abs/124514a0.html Then in 2015 http://www.nature.com/news/early-european-may-have-had-neanderthal-great-great-grandparent-1.17534 And we are right back where we are in 1929..... But WD400 don't let your lack of scientific knowledge stand in the way of the species problem please. Just carry on pretending like every other Darwinist that you have it all figured out. Just ignore the thousands of papers written about the problem will you? Andre

The serious discussion of what “separate species” means never happens because no Darwin follower can afford it.

Except, you know, any intro to evolution course. wd400