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Common descent: Ann Gauger’s response to Vincent Torley

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Here:

Well, I must say I didn’t expect to be honored by a 7500 word broadside by philosopher Dr. Vincent Torley, assisted by Dr. Josh Swamidass, Assistant Professor at Washington University. I guess they must have a lot of spare time. The reason for the post at Uncommon Descent? Both hold common descent to be absolutely, incontrovertibly, obviously true, and they apparently wish I would fall into line and stop embarrassing them by doubting common descent. They wish I would give up my “peculiar kind of intellectual obstinacy.”

The argument is in the end all about common descent. (There are a few accusations of poor reasoning, obscuring the issue, and even a little bad faith along the way.) Look, intelligent design is not wedded to common descent. Neither is it wedded to a denial of common descent. Intelligent design states that there is evidence of design in the universe. I think we are in agreement on this point. In terms of biology, how the designer instantiated that design is still subject to debate, based on the strength of the evidence for each position.

As a biologist, I see evidence on both sides of the debate. The evidence is equivocal — hence the fact that ID advocates take different positions on the subject. Yet common descent — the idea that organisms descend from one or a few common ancestors — is treated like a sacred cow by many scientists, and even, it appears, by some philosophers. Indignation arises that anyone would doubt it, would even have questions. Scientists take common descent as axiomatic, and accept evidence that is itself interpreted through a lens of common descent as proof of common descent. As a consequence, any evidence against common descent meets opposition and is explained away.More.

Background: Vincent Torley: Evidence for common descent: here

Comments
Me? I've always thought that common plans simply mean a common Planner. You are welcome to refute if you want. Here is the catch, you cannot prove your hypothesis without your philosophical presuppositions or assumptions. "Wisdom is justified by her children." A thought to consider for all and let's not fight amongst ourselves. Nonessentials are just that.jimmontg
June 10, 2016
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Amen to the statement in the thread. is common descxent based on biological evidence or is it based on comparative evidence. Is this a high intellectual investigation or just people comparing separate biological entities and reasoning that like equals like parents?? Is comparative evidence, standing alone on its comparativeness, actually biological evidence for common descent. If there was no other option for likeness in biology WOULD this still mean comparing things is bio evidence. No one saw men/apes origins. So common descent folks must simply conclude this by like parts. In short eyeballs everywhere proves a eyeball common origin for eyeballs. If not proves at least evidence. I say its not bio evidence but only a line of reasoning someone could of thought up thousands oy years ago before a pretence to be scientists. Everyone is just comparing parts and not doing anymore then that. Another option would instantly nullify likeness as evidence. Other options or not its not based on bio sci. its trivial lines of reasoning.Robert Byers
June 10, 2016
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@mahuna 6 I too fall in the common design camp. Creative intelligence can use basic building blocks, even those that have mutations in common to achieve an end result. The programming is the key to dealing with the imperfect copy. IDvolution.org - - God “breathed” the super language of DNA into the “kinds” in the creative act. This accounts for the diversity of life we see. The core makeup shared by all living things have the necessary complex information built in that facilitates rapid and responsive adaptation of features and variation while being able to preserve the “kind” that they began as. Life has been created with the creativity built in ready to respond to triggering events. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth have the same core, it is virtually certain that living organisms have been thought of AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator endowed with the super language we know as DNA that switched on the formation of the various kinds, the cattle, the swimming creatures, the flying creatures, etc.. in a pristine harmonious state and superb adaptability and responsiveness to their environment for the purpose of populating the earth that became subject to the ravages of corruption by the sin of one man (deleterious mutations). IDvolution considers the latest sciencebuffalo
June 10, 2016
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I lean more in the direction of there being a "shared design". "Common descent" goes with the Evolutionary idea that the reason there are today both chimps and humans (and marsupial wombats) is that some Common Ancestor produced offspring with different mutations. And these related but different offspring then fathered (and mothered) separate strings of increasingly mutated offspring until here in the super whizz bang, Buck Rogers 21st century it is no longer obvious that (especially if we examine the skeletons) that chimps and humans are related at all. Share design on the other hand suggests that the design teams for the various projects made use of bits and pieces that already worked in older designs while laying out the distinctly new systems and subsystems for Project CHIMP and Project HUMAN. If we and our chimp friends actually shared a "common descent", then we would have already found fossils of the intermediate ancestors. But more challenging are bats. Bats share common descent from WHAT? Modern bats are virtually identical to the oldest known bat fossils, and the pre-historic sabre-toothed cave bats appeared POOF! with the ability to fly and navigate and hunt prey using echo location. Bats of course share COMMON DESIGNS with many other mammals, again suggesting that the design team only changed the parts they knew wouldn't work on Project BAT.mahuna
June 10, 2016
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bFast
I honestly find this dialog to be, well, infighting. I personally am compelled by the case for common descent. That said, I recently watched Dr. Hunter put out a compelling case against common descent. I think that we the ID community need to demonstrate to the rest of science that we are an evidence driven people, not a position driven people. Let us hold our conclusions loosely, allow our opinions to be our personal synthesis of the evidence, and attempt to sway other peoples’ perspectives solely by making an evidentiary case.
I agree. A healthy exchange is good. Lets discover together what the evidence is really telling us. I thought Ann did a very good job defending her position and agree Dr Hunter has surfaced some very good points.bill cole
June 10, 2016
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I honestly find this dialog to be, well, infighting. I personally am compelled by the case for common descent. That said, I recently watched Dr. Hunter put out a compelling case against common descent. I think that we the ID community need to demonstrate to the rest of science that we are an evidence driven people, not a position driven people. Let us hold our conclusions loosely, allow our opinions to be our personal synthesis of the evidence, and attempt to sway other peoples' perspectives solely by making an evidentiary case.bFast
June 10, 2016
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As to the Torley's reference of Behe in regards to the beta-globin pseudogene
Beta-Globin Pseudogene Is Functional After All by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. * - April 2013 One of the key arguments of human evolution has now suffered the same fate as many other debunked icons of the errant paradigm of "junk DNA." In this case, it is new research related to the beta-globin pseudogene—which now shows it to be functional and important to hemoglobin gene regulation. Hemoglobin is a protein in human red blood cells that transports oxygen throughout the body's circulatory system. The human hemoglobin protein is actually a cluster of two chains of different sub proteins. One of these chains is called the "alpha-globin" which remains the same from embryo development to adulthood. The second set is called the "beta-hemoglobin" chain which specifically changes at the embryo-to-fetal transition and again at the fetal-to-adult transition. This amazing bio-engineering allows the developing embryo-baby to receive oxygen at the correct levels throughout its critical growth processes. The human beta-globin proteins are encoded in a cluster of six genes that extends over 80,000 bases on chromosome 11. The embryo-to-adult growth stage expression of each gene in the cluster depends on that specific gene's interaction with a control region preceding the whole cluster called the "locus control region" or LCR. While five out of the six genes in the beta-globin cluster encode functional proteins, one of the genes called HBBP1 does not, because of several stop sequences in its code that were once thought to be mutations. This gene was classified as a pseudogene (a broken defunct remnant) because of its assumed non-functionality. Because the gene, along with its presumed errors, is also found in chimpanzees, evolutionists claimed it as proof that humans inherited their version of the gene from a common ancestor with chimps. One of the main problems with this idea is the actual evidence for the claim. Molecular evolutionist's who study DNA sequence, have wondered why, if the HBBP1 gene is non-functional, its DNA has not mutated over the past 3 to 6 million years of assumed human evolution (compared to chimps) if there has been no selection restraint imposed on it. In other words, the so-called evidence for common ancestry with this sequence actually argues against it. It also indicates that the HBBP1 gene may actually be functional and serving a common purpose in both humans and chimps. A recent paper published in the journal Genome Biology and Evolution now confirms the fact that the HBBP1 gene is highly resilient to change and is in fact functional.1 Researchers compared the beta-globin gene clusters in many different individuals in both humans and chimpanzees. Out of the six genes in the beta-globin cluster, the HBD gene and its companion (the next gene in the cluster), the HBBP1 pseudogene, are highly non-variable compared to the other beta-globin genes. These results indicate that virtually no mutation is tolerated in the so-called pseudogene area, implying that it is functionally important. The researchers then analyzed the HBBP1 pseudogene region for gene-function data, related to the ENCODE project,2, 3 and found that it is actively associated with transcriptional (gene control) regulation in conjunction with the LCR region that controls the whole beta-globin gene cluster. In addition, new information in the PseudoMap database4 shows that the HBBP1 pseudogene encodes two different regulatory RNAs that are thought to control the first gene in the beta-globin cluster (HBE) that is involved in early embryogenesis. These regions in the HBBP1 pseudogene also have the classic biochemical genetic marks of functionally active DNA—just like regular genes. This new functional data meshes well with another recent study showing that a single base mutation in the HBBP1 pseudogene is associated with a blood disease called beta-thalasemia.5 Instead of being a useless mutated remnant according to failed evolutionary predictions, the HBBP1 beta-globin pseudogene appears to be genetically active and plays a key functional role as a cleverly engineered feature programmed by God the Creator. References Moleirinho, A., et al. 2013. Evolutionary Constraints in the ?-Globin Cluster: The Signature of Purifying Selection at the ?-Globin (HBD) Locus and its Role in Developmental Gene Regulation. Genome Biology and Evolution. 5 (3): 559–571. Tomkins, J. 2012. Junk DNA Myth Continues Its Demise. Acts & Facts. 41 (11): 11-13. The ENCODE Project Consortium. 2012. An Integrated Encyclopedia of DNA Elements in the Human Genome. Nature. 489 (7414): 57-74. PseudoMap - A resource of exploring esiRNA-mediated mechanism of pseudogenes. Posted on pseudomap.mbc.edu.tw, accessed March 25, 2013. Giannopoulou, E. et al. 2012. A Single Nucleotide Polymorphism in the HBBP1 Gene in the Human ?-Globin Locus is Associated with a Mild ?-Thalassemia Disease Phenotype. Hemoglobin. 36 (5): 433-445. https://www.icr.org/article/7405/
bornagain77
June 10, 2016
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VJT does seem to be a bit long-winded at times. The post @1 shows remarkable constraint. :)Mung
June 10, 2016
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Hi News, Thanks for this post. Here's a quick quote from Professor Michael Behe (The Edge of Evolution, Free Press, New York, 2007, pp. 71-72):
The same mistakes in the same gene in the same positions of both human and chimp DNA. If a common ancestor first sustained the mutational mistakes and subsequently gave rise to those two modern species, that would very readily account for why both species have them now. It's hard to imagine how there could be stronger evidence for the common ancestry of chimps and humans. That strong evidence from the pseudogene points well beyond the ancestry of humans. Despite some remaining puzzles, there's no reason to doubt that Darwin had this point right, that all creatures on earth are biological relatives.
He goes on to say that common descent is true but trivial, and that it does not, by itself, explain how the differences between humans and chimps originated: "Something that is nonrandom must account for the common descent of life" (p. 72, italics Behe's).vjtorley
June 10, 2016
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