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Cornelius Hunter’s response to Dennis Venema

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It does not seem that the evidence supports evolutionary theory as Venema concludes. In fact, there seem to be several significant problems with this claim, as I will explain.

First, as we saw in my previous article, the genetic data from the different species do not fall into the expected evolutionary pattern. Here Venema focuses on the high genetic similarity between the primates, claiming it confirms evolution. But if this is what is required to confirm evolutionary relationships, then the substantial genetic differences that are so often found between otherwise similar species must falsify evolutionary relationships in those cases.

But evolutionists have never entertained any such doubts. Those evolutionary relationships are intact, according to evolutionists, and this suggests that the high similarity between the primate genomes never was required for evolutionists to believe they evolved from a common ancestor. More.

See also: A Response to VJ Torley: “To read VJ Torley’s analysis of my criticism of S. Joshua Swamidass’ recent article, Evidence and Evolution, one would think that I mercilessly berated a poor fellow who was merely attempting to “extend an olive branch to creationists.”

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3 Replies to “Cornelius Hunter’s response to Dennis Venema

  1. 1
    bornagain77 says:

    Dr. Hunter goes on to cite numerous other studies looking at the overall genetic evidence, not just the chimp/human DNA evidence, and states:

    Toward a Consensus: An Open Letter to BioLogos on the Genetic Evidence – Cornelius Hunter – May 27, 2016
    Excerpt: One of Venema’s basic points (see here and here) is that the genomes of different species are what we would expect if they evolved.,,,
    What Does the Evidence Say?
    For starters, phylogenetic incongruence is rampant in evolutionary studies. Genetic sequence data do not fall into the expected evolutionary pattern. Conflicts exist at all levels of the evolutionary tree and throughout both morphological and molecular traits.,,,
    As one evolutionist explained, “The tree of life is being politely buried.”,,,

    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....02879.html

    In the preceding article, Dr. Hunter also comments on how Darwinists will pre-filter and even post-filter genetic data in order to try to make the genetic data align with Darwinian predictions. In the one study Dr. Hunter concentrated on, “none of these strategies worked. In fact they sometimes exacerbated the incongruence problem.”

    It is interesting to note that when taking a look at the overall pattern of genetic evidence that the one place that Darwinists defend the strongest in genetic comparisons, the chimp/human DNA comparisons, is, if true, basically an outlier, an anomaly, of the overall incongruent pattern for genetic evidence. And since Darwinists are self admittedly ‘pre-filtering and even post-filtering’ the overall genetic data so as to try to make the data accord with Darwinian predictions, then a unbiased observer would be well justified to question the integrity with which the chimp/human genetic comparisons are being done. i.e. Just how much ‘pre-filtering and post-filtering’ is going on in the chimp/human genetic comparisons? Think about it, in what other branch of science are the researchers allowed to blatantly ‘pre-filter and post-filter’ the evidence in order to arrive at a pre-determined conclusion? In any other branch of science the researchers would be roundly condemned for such blatant ‘massaging’ of the evidence!

    Guy Walks Into a Bar and Thinks He’s a Chimpanzee: The Unbearable Lightness of Chimp-Human Genome Similarity – Sternberg – 2009
    Excerpt: One can seriously call into question the statement that human and chimp genomes are 99% identical. For one thing, it has been noted in the literature that the exact degree of identity between the two genomes is as yet unknown (Cohen, J., 2007. Relative differences: The myth of 1% Science 316: 1836.). ,,, In short, the figure of identity that one wants to use is dependent on various methodological factors.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....think.html

    DNA Comparisons between Humans and Chimps – Fazale Rana – 2010
    Excerpt: It is interesting that when evolutionary biologists discuss genetic comparisons between human and chimpanzee genomes, the fact that, again, as much as 25 percent of the two genomes won’t align receives no mention. Instead, the focus is only on the portions of the genome that display a high-degree of similarity. This distorted emphasis makes the case for the evolutionary connection between humans and chimps seem more compelling than it may actually be.
    In many respects this discussion is moot, unless there is a clear understanding as to how the genetic differences between humans and chimpanzee translate into the biological (i.e. body plans) and (the) profound behavioral differences between these two species.
    http://www.reasons.org/dna-com.....del-part-2

    Human and Chimp DNA–Nearly Identical? by Jeffrey Tomkins, Ph.D. – 2014
    Excerpt: Major research published over the past decade comparing human and chimpanzee DNA was recently reviewed and critiqued.1 In every single publication, researchers only reported on the highly similar DNA sequence data and discarded the rest—apparently because it was too dissimilar. In fact, when the DNA similarities from these studies were recalculated using the omitted data, markedly lower levels—between 81 and 86 percent similarity—were found. Even the well-known chimpanzee genome paper published by evolutionists in 2005 provides a genomic similarity of only about 80 percent when the discarded nonsimilar data are included,,,
    While it is true that there are sections of the chimp genome that are very similar to humans, this is not the complete picture. DNA sequence comparisons that include all the relevant data plainly show that the human and chimp genomes are not nearly identical at all. Instead, they are as distinct as one might expect based on the obvious differences in the resulting anatomies and behavioral capacities.
    Hypothetical evolutionary processes cannot explain the extremely broad differences between chimp and human DNA when the whole genomes are considered. The similar regions between genomes are easily interpreted as the basic reuse of effective code—a concept very familiar to software engineers.,,,
    http://www.icr.org/article/7892/

    Complete Reanalysis of Chimpanzee and Human Genome-Wide DNA Similarity Using Nucmer and LASTZ by Jeffrey P. Tomkins on October 7, 2015
    Excerpt: In summary, it can be fairly well stated that the chimpanzee genome is not 98 to 99% similar to human, but at most no more than about 88% similar overall. However, there are several caveats that must be considered. First, the chimpanzee genomic sequence used in this study was assembled onto the human genome as a framework and thus does not stand on its own merits (Tomkins 2011b). And second, the majority of flow cytometry studies of chimpanzee nuclei along with the cytogenetic analysis of chromosomes indicate a genome size difference of about 8%, with the chimpanzee genome having a significantly larger amount of heterochromatic DNA compared to human (Formenti et al. 1983; Pellicciari et al. 1982, 1988, 1990a, 1990b; Seuanez et al. 1977). Thus, the actual genome similarity with human, even using the high end estimate of 88% for just the alignable regions, is realistically only about 80% or less when the cytogenetic data is taken into account.
    https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/dna-similarities/blastn-algorithm-anomaly/

    Of related note, here is a recent article by Dr. Tomkins on ORFans:

    Genetic Gap Widens Between Humans and Chimps
    by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D. – January 21, 2016
    Excerpt: In yet another recent research report, scientists describe 634 orphan genes in humans and 780 in chimpanzees.1 In other words, we now have a new set of 1,307 genes that are completely different between humans and chimpanzees. In fact, the chimp-specific genes are not found in any other supposed chimp ancestor—like macaque, an extant monkey. They are unique to the chimps just like the human orphan genes are unique to humans. Darwinian evolution did not predict this remarkable discovery.
    Essentially exposing evolution’s weakness in explaining orphan genes, the researchers say, “For the past 20 years scientists have puzzled over a strange-yet-ubiquitous genomic phenomenon; in every genome there are sets of genes which are unique to that particular species i.e. lacking homologues [similar counterparts] in any other species.”1
    Another interesting fact about these newly discovered orphan genes is that they represent just a subset of the genes unique to chimp or human. The researchers only analyzed genes expressed in liver, heart, brain, and testes. Many other bodily tissues still need to be examined. In addition, the team only analyzed genes that were spliced, meaning complex genes that have coding and non-coding regions, with the coding regions being snipped out of the RNA transcript after they are copied from the DNA. Many other genes in the genome are not spliced and were not included in this study. Needless to say, the numerous gene differences that scientists discovered between humans and chimps cannot be accounted for by Darwin’s theory of common ancestry.
    http://www.icr.org/article/gen.....ans-chimps

    Further notes:

    “More than 6 percent of genes found in humans simply aren’t found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over fourteen hundred novel genes expressed in humans but not in chimps.”
    Jerry Coyne – ardent and ‘angry’ neo-Darwinist – professor at the University of Chicago in the department of ecology and evolution for twenty years. He specializes in evolutionary genetics.

    Ten years on, still much to be learned from human genome map – April 12, 2013
    Excerpt:,,,”What’s more, about 10 percent of the human genome still hasn’t been sequenced and can’t be sequenced by existing technology, Green added. “There are parts of the genome we didn’t know existed back when the genome was completed,” he said.,,,
    http://medicalxpress.com/news/.....enome.html

  2. 2
    bornagain77 says:

    In regards to overall genetic similarity, Dr Sternberg states,,,

    On Human Origins: Is Our Genome Full of Junk DNA? Pt 2. – Richard Sternberg PhD. Evolutionary Biology – podcast
    Excerpt: “Here’s the interesting thing, when you look at the protein coding sequences that you have in your cell what you find is that they are nearly identical to the protein coding sequences of a dog, of a carp, of a fruit fly, of a nematode. They are virtually the same and they are interchangeable. You can knock out a gene that encodes a protein for an inner ear bone in say a mouse. This has been done. And then you can take a protein that is similar to it but from a fruit fly. And fruit flies aren’t vertebrates and they certainly are not mammals., so they don’t have inner ear bones. And you can plug that gene in and guess what happens? The offspring of the mouse will have a perfectly normal inner ear bone. So you can swap out all these files. I mentioning this to you because when you hear about we are 99% similar (to chimps) it is almost all referring to those protein coding regions. When you start looking, and you start comparing different mammals. Dolphins, aardvarks, elephants, manatees, humans, chimpanzees,, it doesn’t really matter. What you find is that the protein coding sequences are very well conserved, and there is also a lot of the DNA that is not protein coding that is also highly conserved. But when you look at the chromosomes and those banding patterns, those bar codes, (mentioned at the beginning of the talk), its akin to going into the grocery store. You see a bunch of black and white lines right? You’ve seen one bar code you’ve seen them all. But those bar codes are not the same.,, Here’s an example, aardvark and human chromosomes. They look very similar at the DNA level when you take small snippets of them. (Yet) When you look at how they are arranged in a linear pattern along the chromosome they turn out to be very distinct (from one another). So when you get to the folder and the super-folder and the higher order level, that’s when you find these striking differences. And here is another example. They are now sequencing the nuclear DNA of the Atlantic bottle-nose dolphin. And when they started initially sequencing the DNA, the first thing they realized is that basically the Dolphin genome is almost wholly identical to the human genome. That is, there are a few chromosome rearrangements here and there, you line the sequences up and they fit very well. Yet no one would argue, based on a statement like that, that bottle-nose dolphins are closely related to us. Our sister species if you will. No one would presume to do that. So you would have to layer in some other presumption. But here is the point. You will see these statements throughout the literature of how common things are.,,, (Parts lists are very similar, but how the parts are used is where you will find tremendous differences)
    http://www.discovery.org/multi.....-dna-pt-2/

    Indeed, kangaroo genes were also found to be unexpectedly similar to the human genes:

    Kangaroo and Human Genomes (are unexpectedly similar genetically) 1-30-2016 by Paul Giem – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtmG2QzqJEA

    Kangaroo genes close to humans
    Excerpt: Australia’s kangaroos are genetically similar to humans,,, “There are a few differences, we have a few more of this, a few less of that, but they are the same genes and a lot of them are in the same order,” ,,,”We thought they’d be completely scrambled, but they’re not. There is great chunks of the human genome which is sitting right there in the kangaroo genome,”
    http://www.reuters.com/article.....P020081118

    First Decoded Marsupial Genome Reveals “Junk DNA” Surprise – 2007
    Excerpt: In particular, the study highlights the genetic differences between marsupials such as opossums and kangaroos and placental mammals like humans, mice, and dogs. ,,,
    The researchers were surprised to find that placental and marsupial mammals have largely the same set of genes for making proteins. Instead, much of the difference lies in the controls that turn genes on and off.
    http://news.nationalgeographic.....m-dna.html

    Further notes:

    A Closer Look At Human and Chimp Similarities and Differences – video (2016)
    https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1134643976548534/?type=2&theater

    Gene Regulation Differences Between Humans, Chimpanzees Very Complex – Oct. 17, 2013
    Excerpt: Although humans and chimpanzees share,, similar genomes (conservatively 88% per Tomkins), previous studies have shown that the species evolved major differences in mRNA expression levels.,,,
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....144632.htm

    “Where (chimps and humans) really differ, and they differ by orders of magnitude, is in the genomic architecture outside the protein coding regions. They are vastly, vastly, different.,, The structural, the organization, the regulatory sequences, the hierarchy for how things are organized and used are vastly different between a chimpanzee and a human being in their genomes.”
    Raymond Bohlin

  3. 3
    bornagain77 says:

    Further notes:

    Where could we have learned but from Phys.org – Sept. 28, 2014
    Excerpt: “We have basically the same 20,000 protein-coding genes as a frog, yet our genome is much more complicated, with more layers of gene regulation.”
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....-phys-org/

    Efforts to make and apply humanized yeast – Oct. 13, 2015
    Excerpt: A large proportion of yeast protein-coding genes that have been tested can be replaced with their human orthologs.
    http://bfg.oxfordjournals.org/.....ll.pdf+htm

    Evolution by Splicing – Comparing gene transcripts from different species reveals surprising splicing diversity. – Ruth Williams – December 20, 2012
    Excerpt: A major question in vertebrate evolutionary biology is “how do physical and behavioral differences arise if we have a very similar set of genes to that of the mouse, chicken, or frog?”,,,
    A commonly discussed mechanism was variable levels of gene expression, but both Blencowe and Chris Burge,,, found that gene expression is relatively conserved among species.
    On the other hand, the papers show that most alternative splicing events differ widely between even closely related species. “The alternative splicing patterns are very different even between humans and chimpanzees,” said Blencowe.,,,
    http://www.the-scientist.com/?.....plicing%2F

    The Evolutionary Landscape of Alternative Splicing in Vertebrate Species – 2012
    Excerpt: How species with similar repertoires of protein-coding genes differ so markedly at the phenotypic level is poorly understood. By comparing organ transcriptomes from vertebrate species spanning ~350 million years of evolution, we observed significant differences in alternative splicing complexity between vertebrate lineages, with the highest complexity in primates. Within 6 million years, the splicing profiles of physiologically equivalent organs diverged such that they are more strongly related to the identity of a species than they are to organ type.,,,
    http://science.sciencemag.org/...../6114/1587

    Shark and human proteins “stunningly similar”; shark closer to human than to zebrafish – December 9, 2013
    Excerpt: “We were very surprised to find, that for many categories of proteins, sharks share more similarities with humans than zebrafish,” Stanhope said. “Although sharks and bony fishes are not closely related, they are nonetheless both fish … while mammals have very different anatomies and physiologies.
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....zebrafish/

    Why Darwin was wrong about the (genetic) tree of life: – 21 January 2009
    Excerpt: Syvanen recently compared 2000 genes that are common to humans, frogs, sea squirts, sea urchins, fruit flies and nematodes. In theory, he should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories. This was especially true of sea-squirt genes. Conventionally, sea squirts – also known as tunicates – are lumped together with frogs, humans and other vertebrates in the phylum Chordata, but the genes were sending mixed signals. Some genes did indeed cluster within the chordates, but others indicated that tunicates should be placed with sea urchins, which aren’t chordates. “Roughly 50 per cent of its genes have one evolutionary history and 50 per cent another,” Syvanen says. .”We’ve just annihilated the tree of life. It’s not a tree any more, it’s a different topology entirely,” says Syvanen. “What would Darwin have made of that?”
    http://www.newscientist.com/ar.....-life.html

    A New Model for Evolution: A Rhizome – Didier Raoult – May 2010
    Excerpt: Thus we cannot currently identify a single common ancestor for the gene repertoire of any organism.,,, Overall, it is now thought that there are no two genes that have a similar history along the phylogenic tree.,,,Therefore the representation of the evolutionary pathway as a tree leading to a single common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of one or more genes provides an incorrect representation of the stability and hierarchy of evolution. Finally, genome analyses have revealed that a very high proportion of genes are likely to be newly created,,, and that some genes are only found in one organism (named ORFans). These genes do not belong to any phylogenic tree and represent new genetic creations.
    http://darwins-god.blogspot.co.....izome.html

    Didier Raoult, who authored the preceding paper, has been referred to as ‘Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France’. He has ‘flat out’ said that Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong.

    The “Most Productive and Influential Microbiologist in France” Is a Furious Darwin Doubter – March 2012
    Excerpt: Controversial and outspoken, Raoult last year published a popular science book that flat-out declares that Darwin’s theory of evolution is wrong.
    http://www.evolutionnews.org/2.....57081.html

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