Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID Basics – Information – Part II – When Does Information Arise?

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In my first post I discussed the concept of information, in particular whether information is contained in a physical object by its mere existence.  In this post I would like to consider an additional issue relating to information, namely, the point at which information arises or comes into existence.

Information is often closely associated with meaning – meaning that is transmitted from a sender to a receiver.  As a result, some have suggested that information only exists when there is both a sender and a receiver who have a prior agreement about the protocols to encode the information and after there is a successful transmission, receipt and understanding of the information.

However, viewing information as existing only after it has been transmitted by the sender and received and understood by the receiver is a problematic.  Specifically, I will argue that (i) information can exist independent of a receiver and (ii) requiring successful reception and comprehension in order for information to exist results in a breakdown of definitions, absurd results, and is contrary to our real-world experience.

A Simple Example

Let’s take a simple example of information creation, transmittal and reception. Consider a individual planning and party for Friday night.  Invitations have been sent and everyone is looking forward to a wonderful party starting at 7:30 p.m.

However, during the week the planner decides to change the party to 7:30 p.m. On Wednesday she sends the following email to all of the invitees:

“Hey everybody, change of plans.   The party will start at 7:00 p.m.  Let me know if you can still make it.”

Party On!

Thankfully, all of the attendees receive the email, RSVP as requested, adjust their schedules accordingly, and arrive on time at 7:00 p.m.

If we map the process flow, we can start to get a better handle on what occurred with the information.

conception -> encoding -> transmission -> reception -> recognition -> action

First, the party planner conceived of the information she desired to convey.  Then she encoded that information in a medium, in this case in the English language by means of an electronic tool.  Then she transmitted the information.  The attendees received the information.  The attendees understood or recognized the information.  And, finally, the attendees acted on the information to produce the desired result.

It is important to note that this is a process.  As a result, it occurs, by definition, across a period of time.  The conception occurs before the encoding; the transmission occurs before the reception and so on.  The steps do not occur simultaneously, but in sequence.

As a result, we can now ask: At what point did the information arise?  In other words, at which step in the process did the information come into existence?

This Is No Party

Let’s now tweak our example and assume that instead of the happy outcome above, our party planner still hasn’t had any RSVP’s by Thursday night.  So she calls one of her friends and says, “Can you make it to my party at the new time?”  He replies, “What new time?  I’m planning on 7:30.”  “Didn’t you see my email?” the planner asks, puzzled.  “No,” he replies.

What has occurred?  It could be any number of things, but let’s run though them in order.

1. Encoded but not transmitted.  Let’s suppose our planner in fact composed the email (encoded the message), but forgot to press send and it is still in her drafts folder.  What is she going to say to her friend?  Something along the lines of “Oh, rats, it is still in my drafts folder.  I’ll send it to you right now.”  (She could of course choose a new medium in that instant and convey the information orally, but stick with me on the email example for a bit.)  Notice that, notwithstanding the passage of a fair amount of time, the planner does not need to re-encode the information.  It already exists.  She doesn’t have to write a new email, and she certainly doesn’t have to conceive of the again information from scratch.

This is an important point.  The information process consists of steps, and if a step has been completed, we don’t have to start over, but can pick up at the next step, much like a computer thread which has been put on hold by the processor can pick up again once the competing processes are finished using the resources.

The information already exists.  Objectively so.  It does not need to be recreated.

2. Failed transmission.  Alternatively, let’s suppose that our party planner confirms the email is in her sent folder and in fact was sent.  But let’s say in this case she also notices a bounceback message in her inbox and realizes she had the recipient’s email wrong.  What does she do?  She forwards the message from the sent folder to the proper address with a statement something along the lines of “Sorry you didn’t get the email earlier.  I’m resending.  It looks like I had the wrong email address.”

Again, note that the planner does not have to recreate the original message.  She does not have to create the information again.  It doesn’t have to be conceived again or encoded again.  It already exists.   All she has to do is retransmit it.

3. Failed receipt.  Let’s now assume the problem is on the receiving end.  Perhaps the attendee has an aggressive spam filter and never got the message.  Does this mean, as some have argued, that the information does not exist?  After all, it was not received and understood by a recipient.  Of course not.  And, indeed, upon checking his spam folder the recipient sees the email and reads the information – information that already existed there in his folder, he just needed to read it.

4. Failed recognition.  Let’s finally assume that the recipient does not speak English.  Or perhaps he saw the email and read it, but thought it was spam.  Or perhaps he thought it was relating to a different party the following week.  Does that mean the information about the parting starting at 7:00 doesn’t exist?  Again, of course not.  The recipient’s failure to properly recognize or interpret the information doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Focus On the Creator, Not the Recipient

When we closely examine the information flow process, we realize that the creation of information – the point at which it comes into existence – originates with the creator.  And it virtually always occurs before the information is transmitted, received, recognized or acted upon.  And it makes no difference whether the gap between each step is a fraction of a second or a thousand years.

Again, we can see this if we look at alternate flows that could result from a failed communication.  For example, the following is a common flow:

conception -> encoding -> transmission -> failed transmission -> retransmission -> etc.

We know this happens regularly.  And we also recognize that a failed transmission does not require (at least in the case of a written encoding like our example) that the information either be conceived anew or encoded again.  Those steps are already done.  So in the case of a failed transmission, what is it that is retransmitted?  Information, of course.  Information which, by definition, must already exist before it can be retransmitted.

Consider another common flow:

conception -> encoding -> translation and re-encoding -> transmission -> etc.

In this case, what is it that is translated and re-encoded in a different language or different medium?  The information of course.  So, by definition, the information must exist prior to the transmission and, therefore, prior to its receipt or recognition by the recipient.

Problems With the Alternative

Occasionally someone will claim that information only exists only if there is a recipient who actually receives and recognizes the information.  This view is problematic for at least the following three reasons:

First, it logically collapses and destroys the definitions of plainly understood steps in the flow process.  Specifically, if we say that information only exists once it is understood, then we are collapsing two steps into one: the receipt of information and the recognition of information.  One of the two terms is now meaningless.  In fact, it would be the case that the entire process collapses, because the information cannot be transmitted until it exists, it can’t be transmitted until it is encoded, it can’t be encoded until it is conceived.  So the idea that information exists only once it is understood by the recipient is a fundamental misunderstanding of the process flow.  It is also a conflation of the concept of communication with the concept of the information itself.  The former may require interaction of a sender and a receiver; the latter does not.

Second, it would result in a strange and absurd concept of information.  For example, even though I wrote this entire post and saved it on my hard drive prior to posting, that view would claim that none of the information existed until read by someone else, at which point presumably, all the information popped instantly into existence.  Further, a suicide note would not actually contain any information until the investigator walked in the room and read the note, at which point the information would pop into existence.  Finally, back to our party email example, if the friend were to ask over the phone, “What information are you talking about?” it would be an absurdity for our party planner to respond, “Well, since you apparently didn’t get the email, the information doesn’t exist, so there is nothing to talk about.”

Third, it contradicts our everyday real-world experience.  We all experience information creation on a regular basis.  Every time we write an email or a blog post or send a text.  We understand that it is the creative act, the mental activity of the creator, that gives rise to the information.  Whether or not some particular later step happens with that information, like re-encoding, transmission, reception, recognition and so on, it does not take away from the creative experience that produced the information in the first place.

In Summary

It has been occasionally argued that information only exists when there is a sender, a receiver, a successful transmission, and a successful reception and recognition of the information by the recipient.  We sometimes see a failed communication (at whatever step of the process) and are tempted to jump to the conclusion that because of the failed communication the underlying information does not really exist.  However, such an approach leads to a breakdown of basic definitions, absurd situations, and contradicts our real-world experience.

Information, based on everything we know and on our own real-world experience, arises as the result of a creative act or mental activity of the creator.  Once that information exists, many things can happen with it, including additional encoding, transmission, reception and recognition by a recipient.  This entire process can perhaps be appropriately termed “communication”.  The entire process, however, must not be confused with the creation and existence of the underlying information itself.

—–

 

Nota Bene

Astute readers will note that I have not spent much time in the above essay distinguishing between the first two steps of the process: conception and initial encoding.  It is quite clear that following the initial encoding the information exists and at that point we can do anything with it that we can normally do with information: re-code, transmit, receive, and so on.  This latter point is the focus of the above essay, as I am intending to combat the idea that information only exists after a successful communication event has occurred between parties.

What is less clear is whether we should define information as coming into existence at the moment of conception or at the moment of initial encoding.  I think there are some interesting arguments on either side, and perhaps that can be explored in a future post.

Comments
Eric: It is an interaction, certainly. But I don't think that an observer, however gifted, can derive the experience of Hamlet by reading War and Peace, no more than we can install Excel on a PC using the installation CD of Photoshop. The designed object has its properties, and those properties constrain the experience of the receiver in a rather objective way, although it is true that the experience of the receiver depends in a great way also from his inner contents, reactions and so on. That is the subjective part. Now, all the problems come from the fact that "information" means different things to different persons. It is not a precise, unequivocal word. I have tried, in my post #24, to differentiate its basic different meanings. So, I would call "informational experience" the conscious subjective part that takes place in the sender and in the receiver, and "information transmission" the objective part that depends only on the properties of the designed object. I don't think there is any purpose in becoming divided about words. In my next post (whenever it comes) I will try to give a formal definition of dFSCI, and I will define it as on objective property of objects, although for its recognition and measurement we need a subjective observer. Many think that introducing a subjective observer in a procedure makes it subjective, but that is not true. We can absolutely use subjective processes in an objective way, provided we give specific rules. Now, what do I mean when I say that dFSCI is only a property of the object, and nothing else? I mean exactly that. Although I use the word "information" in the definition, I imply nothing about what information is. I could simply call it "digital Functionally Specified Complex Sequence", instead of "digital Functionally Specified Complex Information", and nothing would be different. When we have to infer design from an object, only the properties of the object count, because that's all that we have to make the inference. So, it is important that we define those properties in a way that allows us to recognize and measure them, without any philosophical implications. The design inference is fully empirical. It requires no specific worldviews, and can be embraced by all those who recognize its strength and beauty.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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groovamos @8:
So every hour information comes in to the receiving station. Where is mind in the origination of this information?
Good question. I'm just getting to the comments in order (while watching the NCAA tournament; great NC-Iowa State game right now with less than a minute left!), so probably someone else has already responded. It is quite true that we can develop tools to observe and record physical reality around us. We can also program those tools to sort, quantify, encode and transmit that data. In a very real sense those tools are extensions of, and function similarly to, our own sensory tools (eyes, nose, skin, etc.). So the 'mind' in your example is present in the original creation and programming of the tool, to not only go out and record physical reality, but then to choose which aspects to focus on and which protocols to use to represent and transmit that information. ----- On a related note, I should add, that the use of tools as a surrogate extension of our own capabilities is interesting because, when taken to the extreme, it brings us back to the question of whether these tools can, at some point, be so capable and sophisticated as to be considered "intelligent." Sal has raised this issue with respect to cells, for example. Ultimately, in every known case the allegedly "intelligent" tool goes back to a mind, so it doesn't change the ultimate issue we are discussing on this thread. But it is an interesting point to consider as we define "intelligence."Eric Anderson
March 23, 2014
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gpuccio @7: Thanks for your thoughts.
And how does the sender convey anything? That is the interesting point. The sender cannot convey directly his experience, but he can output some specific form to a material object which has the potential of evoking a similar experience in a conscious receiver.
Good description.
To recognize that property is, again, an informational experience, and that can happen only in a conscious being (the receiver). But the property is objectively of the object, because the object has objectively the power to evoke the informational experience in a conscious receiver. So, the property is there, objectively, as a specific potential. The conscious receiver has only the role to recognize it for what it is.
Yes, the properties of the object are objectively there -- as properties of the object. Which is really just to say that physical objects are what they are. I guess we could say that physical objects have the "power to evoke the informational experience." I'm tempted, though, to rather say that the observer -- depending on the observer's particular set of tools, capabilities, ability to perceive, and cognitive abilities -- has the power to experience physical reality, which the observer can then convey as what we call "information." I think we can see this distinction/nuance in the fact that different observers can acquire/experience/convey hugely different amounts of information about the same physical object, depending on their experience, capabilities, and tools at their disposal. In other words, although a physical object is always the same -- it is what it is -- the amount of information about the object that can be conceived and conveyed by an observer depends significantly on the observer.Eric Anderson
March 23, 2014
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dgw: A very good depiction of a strategy based on conscious representations of meaning and purpose which easily generates new functional information! :)gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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Elaborating on #14. The party planner does not choose the party time randomly, it is based on knowledge (and wisdom). Parties can't start before 7 PM on a weeknight because of work schedules. This Saturday is a bad day for the party because of the Big Game. Joe and Jenny are in town this weekend, so this weekend is better than next weekend. Standard convention calls for start times on the hour or half hour. So, the party planner could start with a long list of start times (every minute of every day). She narrows her search through this multiverse of options to only a handful of choices: Friday at 7, 7:30, or 8. She "observes" her options, and makes a decision (wavefunction collapse) and she publishes the party invites.dgw
March 23, 2014
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Judging from the recent contributions, I believe that I should clarify further how I use the word "information", and two different meanings that can be given to it: a) There are cognitive experiences that take place in the consciousness of a conscious being. These include experiences of meaning, feeling and purpose. They can be about the external world, or about internal states, or both. They can be informational experiences, in two different ways: a1) They can be the source of an infomation transmission a2) They can be evoked and shaped by an information transmission b) There is, instead, the transmission of information, which requires a material object to which the sender (designer) outputs a specific form. We can differentiate between the object, which is only a vehicle, and the imparted form, which is probably what we mean when we speak of abstract information. The two things cannot be completely separated, because the abstract form can be communicated only through the vehicle of a material object. However, it is the abstract form that evokes the cognitive experience in the conscious receiver. I hope that helps.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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Mung: A couple of very brief answers: a) The information potential is in the material object. If I read a mathematical demonstration of a theorem, the information potential is in that piece of language, whether I already know the demonstration or not. If I already know it, maybe the experience of boredom will also be evoked by it :). But I always need to understand what a piece of information means, to be able to understand that I already know that. So, the material object that is the vehicle of that piece of information has evoked the corresponding cognition (and then re-cognition) anyway. Much of the ambiguity here comes from not distinguishing between the cognitive effect (the receiver has a definite cognitive experience evoked by the material object) and the usefulness of that cognition (is it interesting for the receiver? does the receiver already knows that?). b) This is easy and difficult at the same time. In a sense, information always "arises" in the consciousness of the designer (see also my answer to groovamus), in the sense that it is always present in the designer's conscious representations before being outputted to the designed object. But, in another sense, we cannot really say how that information is generated in the designer's consciousness. the simple fact that a designer can output new, original CSI/dFSCI is evidence that consciousness has rules and properties that nothing else in the universe has.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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groovamus:
This story could be a counter-example to your last paragraph, if applied to the period after the dream, in which Hoffman took the steps he took based on information revealed in the dream state.
Why a counter-example? I have never debated how the information content arises in the consciousness of the designer. A dream can be as good as any other conscious experience. Maybe the equivocation comes from my statement: "However we define all these things, a simple fact remains: information, in all its forms, requires material objects which can evoke the necessary conscious experience, and the specific form and properties of those objects are the basic constraint connected to the conscious informational experiences we can derive from them." I realize that, again, the word "information" is ambiguous. I should have said "the transmission of information". Obviously, new information can arise in the consciousness of a designer without having been evoked (at least, not completely) by external material objects. For example, all the cognition we have about our internal states is not completely dependent on external objects. But, if we want to transmit those cognitions to others, in the form of information, we need a material object as a vehicle. So, I may have a dream whose origin I cannot understand (as we often don't understand the origin of many cognitive results in our consciousness). But, to make others aware of our dreams or cognitions, we need material objects to which we have to output specific forms (information), which will be able to evoke similar cognitions in the receivers. Again, I have never debated how the information content arises in the consciousness of the designer. The simple fact that conscious designers can generate new original CSI/dFSCI (which is the main point o ID theory), while nothing else in the universe seems to be able to do that, should tell us that consciousness is a very special thing.gpuccio
March 23, 2014
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When does information arise? Perhaps a better question is WHERE does information arise?Mung
March 22, 2014
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gpuccio:
All of them. After all, you could be affected by very short term amnesia!
well done sir! But implicit in your response is that lacking very short term amnesia what I already know to be the case is not information to me. If that is the case, what are the implications?Mung
March 22, 2014
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gpuccio: Much of what you seem to be saying is much into philosophical speculation. I like to test the boundaries of philosophical aspects of information theoretical concepts, but try to keep it focused on its foundations in engineering. The last not surprising since I'm an engineer by training and so was Shannon. (S. Meyer, in Darwin's Doubt does not mention Shannon's 2 degrees in electrical engineering ) So in short I cannot form an opinion on what you propose but if I need to get up close personal/philosophical I can refer you to a dream experienced by Albert Hoffman, the famous '25' dream (or series of dreams). He had synthesized, at Sandoz a large number of substances from the ergot fungus and numbered them sequentially in a notebook along with other information. The 25th notebook entry occurred in 1938 and he deemed it to have little prospect of utility. Five years later he began having a series of dreams themed on the number 25. Finally he had a dream connecting the number 25 with the correct notebook. So he goes into his lab and re-synthesized the compound numbered 25 in that notebook and the rest is history. He attached the number -25 to the chemical name out of respect to the information which came to him in the dream. This story could be a counter-example to your last paragraph, if applied to the period after the dream, in which Hoffman took the steps he took based on information revealed in the dream state. But then maybe it could be a meta-example of your last paragraph if applied to the period after he took those steps and experienced by accident the effects of LSD-25 in 1943. Your call on that one.groovamos
March 22, 2014
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groovamus: I quote here some of the points I made in Eric's previous thread. Are you saying anything different? "Now, at this point we have to trace the difference between different kinds of “information experience” that objects give us. The most basic seems to be: a) Data. All objects can be a source of data. In that sense, all objects contain some kind of that basic information power. We can derive data form the rings of Saturn as much as from a stone. b) Higher level information about regularities and laws. That is much more interesting. An apple falling from a tree can give us (if we are intelligent :) ) a definite hint of a very important laws of nature. c) Meaning and function. This is even better. Here the experience is symbolic, it is about meta-experiences of consciousness (experiences which are at a meta-level in respect to the object itself, and of the possible laws which act on it). Meaning and function can be viewed as the same thing, or as different aspects of the same thing. They are strongly related concepts, but we can look at them as partially separate: c1) Meaning is a definite cognitive experience induced by the object, but which is abstract in respect to the object itself (related to other objects, or to other non material experiences). So, the word “tree” evokes in us the representation of a tree. The word “fear” evokes in us a specific feeling. A drawing of a house evokes in us the representation of a real house. And so on. c2) Function is a definite feeling about the possible results of an object in a context. “Functional” means ( :) ) “capable to generate a desirable (or undesirable) result”. The idea of function is always connected to a judgement (an inner feeling) about a result. However we define all these things, a simple fact remains: information, in all its forms, requires material objects which can evoke the necessary conscious experience, and the specific form and properties of those objects are the basic constraint connected to the conscious informational experiences we can derive from them."gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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OK the existence of errors in a data stream is due to random noise. Random noise has (a) a source or sources and (b) characterizing statistics. Therefore the errors, having a cause, themselves can be used to uncover information about the cause. So that information about the cause in this case would be knowledge of the statistics of the cause, that cause being noise. Which itself has causation so even knowledge about the cause of the noise can possibly discerned. This is as simple as I can make it. Think about it and maybe re-read the preceding of my posts. I think it could be seen as the ultimate example of information as being in the mind of the beholder -- using as it does the conventional bogeyman of Shannon's theory, and turning it into a source of information Now one of the sources of noise is thermal or Johnson noise in the components in the first stage of the receiver. It might be interesting to read my post on wikipedia about Johnson noise and how it is the low band of black body radiation, so it adds to the radiation noise impinging on an antenna. See the last post this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ergodicitygroovamos
March 22, 2014
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groovamus: I am not sure I understand your point (you will admit it is not so simple!). Just to be simple, I suppose you are saying that random error can be measured, and therefore are information? If that is your point, I don't agree. Everything cam be measured and evaluated. IOWs, everything that exists is a source of data about itself. But random noise in itself is not a source of information about anything else. Complex evaluations about the system, including the presence in it of random noise, are certainly information about the system. Please, let me know if I understand your point correctly, or explain it better. Thank you. Regarding Shannon information, I believe that sometimes there is some ambiguity about what is meant by it in different contexts. Just to be simple again, let's take the use that Durston makes of it. He considers the random state of a sequence of a certain length as the maximum uncertainty. Here, there is no constraint to the sequence: each position can be indifferently occupied by any of the 20 AAs. The uncertainty for each AA position is therefore about 4.3 bits. Then, he considers a family of proteins with the same function, conserved in the course of evolution. Aligning the sequences, he attributes a value of reduction of uncertainty which ranges from 4.3 bits (there is always the same AA in that position) to 0 bits (any AA can indifferently occupy that position, like in the random state). So, he can measure the reduction in uncertainty (in respect to the random state) determined by the functional constraint (the function of the protein family), and therefore the functional complexity of that protein family. About "the mind of the beholder", the only thing which is in the mind of the beholder are the beholder's experiences. But, as already said, the object which has been designed has an objective capacity of evoking specific experiences in the mind of the beholder. Call it information or not, that is what we want to recognize and measure in ID theory.gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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gpuccio: Well - to further the concept of information as in the mind of the beholder: OK so an engineer at the central weather station calls/texts a technician at the remote station, and asks that the power of the transmitter be reduced in small decrements. The errors increase with each reduction in power and the technician relays back the power level to the engineer. The error correction, which is built into the code, must inject incrementally more redundant information into the bit stream as the power is reduced, so as a result the (error-corrected) data rate slows down. The engineer at the central station is well familiar with not only the error correction algorithm, but with the path loss and the antenna gain of the receiving antenna. (S)He can plot the state changes of the error correcting algorithm with decreasing power levels and with knowledge of the other parameters, estimate the noise power at the receiving antenna within the channel bandwidth. The errors, consequent error rates and reduced (error-corrected) data rate have become a source of information. The amount of total information would depend on the accuracy to which the engineer makes the estimation. The higher the accuracy, the less the uncertainty, and the higher the entropy in line with Shannon. The estimation accuracy would increase if the data rates at each step were measured over longer time intervals giving better time averages. Improved estimation accuracy corresponds to less uncertainty and thus higher Shannon entropy. This would then allow the ability to assign entropy to the occurrence of an error in this application. I'm open to criticism of the above, it may seem a little hair-brained. The engineer would also be likely to discern whether or not the noise source is Gaussian. I have not thought much about this last one and how much information it would represent. The above would presume much simpler method is unavailable. OK Question: Steve Meyer in Darwin's Doubt p 164 introduces Shannon information as not necessarily functional or meaningful and to be 1 of 2 types of information in that regard; I'm assuming the 2nd type to be functional or meaningful. In an email to Steve I expounded upon information as in the mind of the beholder and the quasi-philosophical aspects of the topic. Ideas on the veracity of Steve's assertion, anyone?groovamos
March 22, 2014
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Is there a connection here to quantum mechanics? The person hosting the party may consider many different alternatives for party times--7:00, 7:15, Thursday, a week from next Tuesday. Until the host reaches a decision all of these alternative start-time concepts are viable, much like collapse of a wave function. At the point of decision, the information exists and is now available for the subsequent steps of encoding and transmission. Just a thought.dgw
March 22, 2014
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groovamus: No. Random errors are random variation. By definition, they are not information. Data are information because they correspond to real events, they are representations and measurements of real events. But random variation does not give any information at all. It is just the noise, from which the signal must be separated, as well as possible.gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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gpuccio: Thanks for the answer, a good one. As I mentioned, what I was posting wasn't to be contrary. One way I look at it is that common information is embedded in at both the transmitter and receiver. The information can be, and usually is in the form of hardware and software design which is built into the total system as conceived by a designer or team. The design will employ a code. The actual reading of parameters at the receiving end becomes information by its end use by intelligent beings. Now here is one for you. Shannon's intent was to quantify the transmission of information with as few errors as possible. Since the weather station is reading random variables, and the corrupting noise causes random errors, can these random errors be information?groovamos
March 22, 2014
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Eric and groovamos: An important point in the case of the transmission of data is that the complexity of the data themselves does not originate in the designer, and therefore cannot be considered when trying a design inference for the system. The only complexity to be considered is the complexity of the measuring / transmitting system itself (here, the weather station). This is a very clear example of how the Kolmogorov complexity of a system must always be considered anytime there are functional algorithms in the system.gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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groovamos: It's rather easy. We are speaking here of data, that is the simplest kind of information. See my post number 33 in Eric's previous post: "a) Data. All objects can be a source of data. In that sense, all objects contain some kind of that basic information power. We can derive data form the rings of Saturn as much as from a stone." Not, however, that objects and events here are only a potential source of data. The data themselves are representations and/or measurements of the objects or events, therefore they are conscious representation. The weather station is a designed machine, originated by a conscious plan, whose function (purposeful output of a conscious engineer) is to represent or measure events, generating data, and then transmit them. The transmitted data have meaning only for a conscious receiver, who understands what they refer to. So, a lot of mind there!gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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Mung (#5): All of them. After all, you could be affected by very short term amnesia! :)gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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Nor posting this to be contrary, but here is a scenario that includes the classic Shannon application. A remote weather station sends data over a communication link to a central station. The people setting up the system are aware of the possibility of errors in the transmission, and take into account the precautions needed for the minimization of the errors, in accordance with parameters derived with the help of Shannon. So every hour information comes in to the receiving station. Where is mind in the origination of this information?groovamos
March 22, 2014
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Eric: I have not much to say here, because I think that I completely agree with you. Just to say it again simply with my words: Information (true information, meaningful) starts in a conscious representation of a conscious being. It is essentially an experience, with dimensions of cognition, feeling and will. Can it be conveyed? Yes, but the experience lived by the receiver is the receiver's experience. Only, it is "guided", "inspired", "constrained" by what the sender conveys. And how does the sender convey anything? That is the interesting point. The sender cannot convey directly his experience, but he can output some specific form to a material object which has the potential of evoking a similar experience in a conscious receiver. So, the object is the vehicle of that form. The form is not, in a sense, the informational experience itself, but has the power to evoke the informational experience. Now, we can call that specific form "information" or not (as anyone likes, I have no preferences), but there is no doubt that it is a property of the object. Not the object itself, but a property of it. To recognize that property is, again, an informational experience, and that can happen only in a conscious being (the receiver). But the property is objectively of the object, because the object has objectively the power to evoke the informational experience in a conscious receiver. So, the property is there, objectively, as a specific potential. The conscious receiver has only the role to recognize it for what it is. I don't see how there can be doubts about these very basic things.gpuccio
March 22, 2014
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Mung @5: Presumably just because someone already knows something the information doesn't cease to be information? Seems to me like that is why we have the adjectives "new" and "old". Indeed, we've even got a common word that we sometimes use for the new (previously-unknown) stuff: "news." :)Eric Anderson
March 21, 2014
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At 9:00 you receive a message declaring "it is now 9:00." Every second for the next 59 seconds you receive the same message. Which of these messages, if any, was informational? Did you already know that it was 9:00?Mung
March 21, 2014
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(i) information can exist independent of a receiver and (ii) requiring successful reception and comprehension in order for information to exist results in a breakdown of definitions, absurd results, and is contrary to our real-world experience.
Sure. Information can exist in the mind of the sender, prior to the sending of a message. It seems to me that this is granted by any notion of a receiver. What sense does it make to speak of a receiver if there is no sender?Mung
March 21, 2014
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jstanley01 @2: Thanks. The information arises at the same time in both cases: when the observer, through her mental faculties, conceptualizes it. There is no fundamental difference between (i) an individual observing a physical reality (such as a rock rolling down a hill) and creating information based on such physical reality to describe what occurred or what she witnessed, and (ii) an individual observing various realities about what it would take to pull together a party (such as appropriate dates, competing events, whom to invite, etc.) and creating information based on those realities to put together a party. Information can be categorized in different ways for our convenience, and we could categorize the rock example as "descriptive" information (intended to convey a description of some event), whereas the email about the party would be "prescriptive" information (intended to solicit some action by the recipient). But the overall process of creating the information is, in principle, the same.Eric Anderson
March 21, 2014
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"Conception" covers the genesis of information about an event that the informer initiates, like a party. But when does information arise following upon an observation by our party informer about an event that she did not initiate, like when she saw that rock rolling down the hill? I ask because, it seems to me, the objectors want to give role of informer to the rock.jstanley01
March 21, 2014
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Methinks your party thing would have been better if you had the change to a later time. Showing up at 7:30 to a party that started at 7, is normal. Unless of course you said dinner will be served at 7, but you didn't say anything about dinner. However showing up at 7:30 to a party that started at 8:30 would be a little awkward. Also the creator of the information can also be a receiver. Think about it.Joe
March 21, 2014
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